Feeling used and abused

[MissCanuck]

Do you think there may be some hope here in terms of friendship or something?

 

What would you personally gain from such a friendship?

[boltnrun]

Do you want to keep her around because you don't have anyone else to talk to?

[Jas76]

What would you personally gain from such a friendship?

 

When she was not being manipulative or hostile, I valued the connection I had with her. Friendship shouldn't really be about what one can gain other than an appreciation of each others company and conversations etc.

[Jas76]

Do you want to keep her around because you don't have anyone else to talk to?

 

There is an element of that, but she did show glimmers of goodness at times. The problem is her unreasonable behaviour seems to overshadow that.

[Jas76]

I can't help questioning myself though. I keep asking myself if I'm being/was unreasonable, unforgiving, lacking understanding and compassion etc. 'Is it all my fault for mentioning the state of her skin?' is another question that keeps coming up in my mind. However, I don't think many reasonable people would want to invite a shamelessly abusive person into their home. I think one needs to put your foot down at some point, preferably early, otherwise that kind of abusive behaviour is never going to stop.

 

I certainly tried to keep things platonic, and thought that as intimacy was driving most of her unreasonable behaviour I will put an end to that until the relationship looks like it's improving. Her unreasonable responses and behaviour do suggest that could have been her main agenda, which she may not even admit to herself. Unfortunately, as my therapist has rightly informed me, the subconscious mind is very powerful, and we often have agendas, feelings of prejudice and impulses etc. that we can't clearly see or admit:

 

https://acmelab.yale.edu/sites/default/files/our_unconscious_mind.pdf

[boltnrun]

And when you let that person back in they will conclude you like the way they treat you, and they will continue.

[Jas76]

And when you let that person back in they will conclude you like the way they treat you, and they will continue.

 

Agreed, to a degree. The best thing one can do in those circumstances is to send a clear message that you don't like certain aspects of their behaviour, but there are sides of them that you like and appreciate. I think I've tried that, though, with the lady in question and it hasn't really worked. It's a really tricky and sad situation.

[Wiseman2]

She is not going to change. People are not going to retool themselves according to your likes or dislikes and telling them won't work.

 

Other people are a what you see is what you get situation. You can try mental splitting (

 

When did you last communicate with her?

The best thing one can do in those circumstances is to send a clear message that you don't like certain aspects of their behaviour, but there are sides of them that you like and appreciate. I think I've tried that, though, with the lady in question and it hasn't really worked.

[Jas76]

She is not going to change. People are not going to retool themselves according to your likes or dislikes and telling them won't work.

 

Sadly, I think you're probably right. I have tried, in an act of futility, to have many reasonable discussions with her, but she has a habit of treating me with contempt there too.

 

Other people are a what you see is what you get situation. You can try mental splitting (

 

When did you last communicate with her?

 

Found an article on 'splitting', which looks interesting:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-ii-splitting

 

I'm trying not to keep things as black and white as that.

 

I last spoke to her yesterday. I sent her a WhatsApp message after she put the phone down on me yesterday (I asked her why she had such difficulty accepting abuse is wrong). It looks like she may have blocked me on WhatsApp, because there is no sign the message has been read, or even received.

 

Feeling really low tonight, understandably I suppose.

[Seraphim]

Please forget her she is her own problem.

[Jas76]

Please forget her she is her own problem.

 

Am trying, but easier said that done.

[MissCanuck]

When she was not being manipulative or hostile, I valued the connection I had with her. Friendship shouldn't really be about what one can gain other than an appreciation of each others company and conversations etc.

 

OP, this woman is a jerk and treats you like crap.

 

You need to make other friends. This isn't healthy or normal.

[Wiseman2]

Sounds like it's devolved into abuse, arguing about arguing, hanging up, blocking, etc. What's the point in that? If you enjoy debating this much, there may be better ways to fulfill that.

[SherrySher]

You are now guilting yourself over this? OP, none of us here would have dealt with this abuser for more than maybe a couple of interactions after she has shown her manipulative sides.

More so, I think we can agree that all of us would have told her to "go take a flying leap and don't come back".

 

The fact that you're still dwelling, still feeling sorry for her, still blaming yourself, is not necessarily a sign of a kind heart but a sign of being mentally unstable yourself what with allowing someone to treat you like dirt, then to blame yourself and then to feel sorry for them.

That's messed up.

 

It's not wrong to put your foot down and show someone the door once they've proved themself to be toxic (on any level).

 

To be honest you sound like a lonely man who is willing to attach to anyone as long as they talk with you and connect on some kind of level. You need to address that as it will do more harm to your life than good.

 

Being lonely, doesn't mean you should allow toxicity into your life and to keep allowing it.

 

You are also romanticising the whole situation. Making it out to be like you and she are 2 broken people who need each other in this sad world.

You need to stop that.

 

This isn't a romance, she was not and will never be partner worthy for anyone.

And 2 broken people who keep latching onto each other, is comparable to two drowning people grabbing for one another.

In the end, you will both drown each other.

 

You need to find actual friends who bring good into your life and this woman needs a therapist. You cannot fix one another.

[Jas76]

OP, this woman is a jerk and treats you like crap.

 

You need to make other friends. This isn't healthy or normal.

 

Fair comment I suppose. I have the suspicion it hasn't just been me.

[Jas76]

You are now guilting yourself over this? OP, none of us here would have dealt with this abuser for more than maybe a couple of interactions after she has shown her manipulative sides.

More so, I think we can agree that all of us would have told her to "go take a flying leap and don't come back".

 

The fact that you're still dwelling, still feeling sorry for her, still blaming yourself, is not necessarily a sign of a kind heart but a sign of being mentally unstable yourself what with allowing someone to treat you like dirt, then to blame yourself and then to feel sorry for them.

That's messed up.

 

It's not wrong to put your foot down and show someone the door once they've proved themself to be toxic (on any level).

 

To be honest you sound like a lonely man who is willing to attach to anyone as long as they talk with you and connect on some kind of level. You need to address that as it will do more harm to your life than good.

 

Being lonely, doesn't mean you should allow toxicity into your life and to keep allowing it.

 

You are also romanticising the whole situation. Making it out to be like you and she are 2 broken people who need each other in this sad world.

You need to stop that.

 

This isn't a romance, she was not and will never be partner worthy for anyone.

And 2 broken people who keep latching onto each other, is comparable to two drowning people grabbing for one another.

In the end, you will both drown each other.

 

You need to find actual friends who bring good into your life and this woman needs a therapist. You cannot fix one another.

 

I hear you.

 

I have put my foot down, hence the reason I haven't invited her over, which led to the argument, her tearful and highly emotional behaviour, and her putting the phone down the other day.

 

I'm generally not shy or afraid to put my foot down or to be assertive. For example, I recently blocked a good friend, who I have known since I was a young child, because I thought his behaviour was out of order, and somewhat manipulative too. I am generally very selective with the company I keep, and for good reason.

 

I did feel a very strong connection with her, albeit at some level, which makes it tough.

 

I think she has a personality disorder (most probably BPD), albeit in my humble and layman opinion. The more I've read about that, the more she fits the profile. Either that or she is just hypersensitive, overemotional, and sometimes just plain hostile and very manipulative, albeit at certain times. Accordingly, I don't think she will ever find a stable relationship, as I think we both agree, which makes me feel profoundly sorry for her.

 

I think it is likely that she will never get psychotherapy again and, even if she did, according to Wikipedia the outcome is generally not that good. It looks like some clinicians even prefer or preferred not to tell people with BPD what their diagnosis is, either from concern about the stigma attached to this condition or because BPD used to be considered untreatable.

 

So, I tend to be mindful about outright rejecting someone because they have had a difficult childhood and family circumstances, and have developed a personality/mental health disorder. Put another way, I don't think it is morally justifiable to reject someone because they suffer some kind of mental illness, as long as the illness or disorder in question isn't so toxic that it is damaging for one or both parties. I think knowing what the problem is makes me more understanding and sympathetic. This said, I'm not sure I can keep taking the mental and emotional hits, but I have to give all this some serious thought, because I think she deserved at least that, particularly when one looks sympathetically at the whole picture.

[Wiseman2]

Why not join a psychology discussion group? You could assuage your loneliness and indulge your fascination with psychology.

[SherrySher]

Do you want her for a friend or lover or both? (if things had gone better).

[Jas76]

Do you want her for a friend or lover or both? (if things had gone better).

 

I was planning on taking one safe step at a time, so I thought I would keep things platonic, particularly as most of her emotional outbursts stemmed from intimacy matters. All this may be a moot point, though, because she may never get in touch again.

[SherrySher]

Well, Jas...I think you're making the right call. But the unfortunate thing is, she wanted more than you were willing to give her. That's not your fault. It happens.

 

You tried to be a good friend, unfortunately for her, it wasn't enough and she tried to play mind games with you in order to push you towards something you weren't open to.

 

I do believe you could have been a good friend to her. It's sad that she wasn't appreciative of what you offered. But please don't feel bad. We can't control how the other person is going to react. You did what you could to befriend her, it went sideways due to issues from her. That's not your fault and sadly, there's not much you can do about it to remedy it.

This woman needs more help than she will admit to.

 

I actually feel bad for her too, only because she burnt the one person who was offering her genuine friendship. But I don't feel that badly that I would advise you to allow her back into your life. After all, you need to have respect for yourself too and not let people treat you this way.

[Jas76]

Well, Jas...I think you're making the right call. But the unfortunate thing is, she wanted more than you were willing to give her. That's not your fault. It happens.

 

You tried to be a good friend, unfortunately for her, it wasn't enough and she tried to play mind games with you in order to push you towards something you weren't open to.

 

I do believe you could have been a good friend to her. It's sad that she wasn't appreciative of what you offered. But please don't feel bad. We can't control how the other person is going to react. You did what you could to befriend her, it went sideways due to issues from her. That's not your fault and sadly, there's not much you can do about it to remedy it.

This woman needs more help than she will admit to.

 

I actually feel bad for her too, only because she burnt the one person who was offering her genuine friendship. But I don't feel that badly that I would advise you to allow her back into your life. After all, you need to have respect for yourself too and not let people treat you this way.

 

I totally agree with everything you have said.

 

It's also a bit hurtful that I went further than most people would have gone, but she essentially rejected everything. It's a tough pill to swallow.

 

I think she really craved love and intimacy, so much so that, ironically, she was pushing it away.

 

I totally agree that she needs help. Unfortunately, there are many issues that get in the way of that, not least because she is disillusioned with psychotherapists (the last one tried to look up her skirt allegedly, and when she voiced concern, her therapy was cut short).

 

Yes, I think there is sometimes a fine line between caring for someone selflessly, particularly someone with her issues, and going down a road of self-destruction.

[SherrySher]

the last one tried to look up her skirt allegedly

 

I think she said this to try to make you see her as more attractive. I mean, let's break this down in an honest way. She's what most would consider an elderly lady. She doesn't take care of herself. She is misguided, (to say the least) and has proven to be manipulative. I also can't see a therapist risking his entire career just to peep on this woman...can you?

 

To me, it's another bold faced lie in order to make herself look more appealing. However, she should be very careful with her words as that can be taken as slander and should it ever get back to the therapist, she can get charged for that.

 

It's a very serious allegation.

[SherrySher]

Yes, I think there is sometimes a fine line between caring for someone selflessly, particularly someone with her issues, and going down a road of self-destruction.

 

Absolutely. That's something that should be on a sign and for most people to be reminded of on a daily basis. Great advice.

[Jas76]

I think she said this to try to make you see her as more attractive. I mean, let's break this down in an honest way. She's what most would consider an elderly lady. She doesn't take care of herself. She is misguided, (to say the least) and has proven to be manipulative. I also can't see a therapist risking his entire career just to peep on this woman...can you?

 

To me, it's another bold faced lie in order to make herself look more appealing. However, she should be very careful with her words as that can be taken as slander and should it ever get back to the therapist, she can get charged for that.

 

It's a very serious allegation.

 

You may be right, but only he an she knows what truly happened. I don't hold the medical profession in very high regard in my country (the UK), and far worse things have happened in that respect, so nothing would surprise me. I have also had a very bad experience with a therapist, so much so that I got financial compensation.

 

She didn't really mention how long ago this happened, so it may be over a decade ago.

 

She claims to have no issues whatsoever now, so therapy is definitely not on her agenda.

[Jas76]

Absolutely. That's something that should be on a sign and for most people to be reminded of on a daily basis. Great advice.

 

Yes, it can be a very tricky situation. I still can't help feel really sorry for her, and really sad the way things have gone.