Can we improve “physical chemistry“?

[dmveep]

See, that's what many of us are trying to tell you.

 

Why put so much thought, emotion and effort into a woman who would have to "change her tune" to be the right woman for you?

 

How about taking a better chance of meeting a woman who won't need to "change her tune" for you because she'll already be playing the same tune you are?

 

I don't get why you're putting yourself through this except you have some (IMO, unhealthy) need to prove something. To whom (you or her), I don't know. But you're sure throwing yourself into the wringer here.

 

I went ahead and cancelled. Thanks everyone for all your thoughts. I know this is the right decision. Even though I’m bummed at the moment, no one deserves the slow fade treatment, that alone is reason enough not to even consider being friends with this person.

 

Lots of lessons learned here. I really appreciate everyone taking their time to give thoughts and analogies. I think those will help guide the future.

[Batya33]

I went ahead and cancelled. Thanks everyone for all your thoughts. I know this is the right decision. Even though I’m bummed at the moment, no one deserves the slow fade treatment, that alone is reason enough not to even consider being friends with this person.

 

Lots of lessons learned here. I really appreciate everyone taking their time to give thoughts and analogies. I think those will help guide the future.

 

I agree you shouldn't be friends -there's no basis for one especially since you'd still be attracted to her and you likely wouldn't want to chat about who she's dating, right? I think she was on the fence about how to proceed. I don't think she intentionally treated you badly -you chose to get over invested early on so your expectations of what would happen were a bit unrealistic this early on in dating. I understand she acknowledged the slow fade and understand that after only a month you chose to continue texting her even though she wasn't responding and you insisted on a "reason" rather than simply accepting that a person who is interested in dating you will respond to a text in a reasonable period of time, and with enthusiasm. So she felt she needed to be open about the reason and a lack of physical chemistry is an excellent reason to stop dating someone.

[boltnrun]

If you already know having sex right away makes you attached, of course I'm sure you'll be more careful going forward.

 

No need to get yourself overly attached to someone who is possibly not right for you.

[dmveep]

What is the timeline, exactly, of the slow fade? You wrote about this in the earlier post, at which point it had been 24 hours since you heard from her. I'm assuming another day or so passed, after which you sent the direct message that led to this talk that led to these spins? Just trying to see the full picture.

 

Anyhow, I can't help but feel, if we strip this to the bone, that what you're disappointed with is that this woman is not obsessed with you, super into you, even though you have yet to become super into her. I don't mean that critically, just observationally.

 

She didn't ghost you, after all, didn't really mess with you. She spent some time with you, perhaps around 10-15 hours spread out over 4 dates? She was physically intimate with you, went a little quiet afterward. Was probably sorting through thoughts, feelings, and who knows what else is going on her life. When you chose to make your discomfort crystal clear, she met you on that plane, and respectfully told you that she wasn't sure about things.

 

Nothing wrong with still wanting to see her, still being curious, and expressing that. Just as there would be nothing wrong with having zero interest in her at that point. Still, you did not "beg." You were just you: door still opened. She listened. Maybe what you said, in combo with those 10-15 hours, moved her needle a bit, and she opted for another date. And all that is "hopeless" and "demoralizing"? And now you're thinking of canceling to preserve self-respect?

 

I don't get it. That sounds to me like you're looking to punish her for a series of choices you've made that have left you feeling punished.

 

Is there a chance she changes her tune? Well, sure. It happens. You have a 3.5 year relationship that unspooled because a woman "changed her tune" about you, no? But like bolt, I don't quite understand why this has become the most pressing question. Your own tune on her was unclear, lacking harmony. Do you want her to be super into you so you can more clearly decide if you're into her?

 

I just don’t want to continue on with someone who is only half in. The last date we had was after the slow fade behavior started, which was a marked decrease in her communication and a non-committal response to my date requests. It’s happened several times to me, so I knew when I saw it. Slow fades usually do involve some level of internal conflict, but it’s always a sign of things turning for the worse. She went from responding to my date requests nearly instantly to not responding to them at all, pretty air tight case. She knew she was guilty of it and apologized. You know it happens and it’s ok. That’s why I just send people an ultimatum type text. It gets you what you need but not really what you want most of the time.

 

Looking back, it wasn’t really very fun. The conversation was stilted, she didn’t seem particularly engaged, she was even more standoffish than before. Things were already dead in the water. I don’t need a repeat of that.

 

She was just not F*** Yeah about me, which is fine. It was an important lesson I forgot about from Mark Manson

https://www.google.com/amp/s/markmanson.net/-yes/amp

 

It’s best to get a f*** yes or no from a person. Limbo is crap

[Batya33]

I just don’t want to continue on with someone who is only half in. The last date we had was after the slow fade behavior started, which was a marked decrease in her communication and a non-committal response to my date requests. It’s happened several times to me, so I knew when I saw it. Slow fades usually do involve some level of internal conflict, but it’s always a sign of things turning for the worse. She went from responding to my date requests nearly instantly to not responding to them at all, pretty air tight case. She knew she was guilty of it and apologized. You know it happens and it’s ok. That’s why I just send people an ultimatum type text. It gets you what you need but not really what you want most of the time.

 

Looking back, it wasn’t really very fun. The conversation was stilted, she didn’t seem particularly engaged, she was even more standoffish than before. Things were already dead in the water. I don’t need a repeat of that.

 

She was just not F*** Yeah about me, which is fine. It was an important lesson I forgot about from Mark Manson

https://www.google.com/amp/s/markmanson.net/-yes/amp

 

It’s best to get a f*** yes or no from a person. Limbo is crap

 

But why is it a guilt thing? Unless she owed you a response about a plan or promised to respond why can't you simply accept that behavior as a lack of interest from a new person -and just let it go - why confront the person unless you think you did something wrong/to offend the person? Just accept that if someone wants another date with you that person will ask you out or accept a date with enthusiasm. The end.

[dmveep]

I agree you shouldn't be friends -there's no basis for one especially since you'd still be attracted to her and you likely wouldn't want to chat about who she's dating, right? I think she was on the fence about how to proceed. I don't think she intentionally treated you badly -you chose to get over invested early on so your expectations of what would happen were a bit unrealistic this early on in dating. I understand she acknowledged the slow fade and understand that after only a month you chose to continue texting her even though she wasn't responding and you insisted on a "reason" rather than simply accepting that a person who is interested in dating you will respond to a text in a reasonable period of time, and with enthusiasm. So she felt she needed to be open about the reason and a lack of physical chemistry is an excellent reason to stop dating someone.[/QU

 

Lessons learned. If someone doesn’t respond, they get 24 hours and then just confront them. It’s a proven formula, no need for explanations. People don’t intend to be hurtful in slow fading but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t take responsibility for it either.

[Batya33]

I agree you shouldn't be friends -there's no basis for one especially since you'd still be attracted to her and you likely wouldn't want to chat about who she's dating, right? I think she was on the fence about how to proceed. I don't think she intentionally treated you badly -you chose to get over invested early on so your expectations of what would happen were a bit unrealistic this early on in dating. I understand she acknowledged the slow fade and understand that after only a month you chose to continue texting her even though she wasn't responding and you insisted on a "reason" rather than simply accepting that a person who is interested in dating you will respond to a text in a reasonable period of time, and with enthusiasm. So she felt she needed to be open about the reason and a lack of physical chemistry is an excellent reason to stop dating someone.[/QU

 

Lessons learned. If someone doesn’t respond, they get 24 hours and then just confront them. It’s a proven formula, no need for explanations. People don’t intend to be hurtful in slow fading but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t take responsibility for it either.

 

Well no -why confront? Just accept that silence is lack of interest. Don't "confront" people if it's not absolutely necessary and feeding your ego so you get some canned 'you're amazing but....." is not necessary. Yes, after a month of dating I would have responded with "this isn't working so no thanks" but after a few dates -no. Nor did I want a response from someone else after only a few dates. Silence = lack of interest and not just in dating (you know, job interviews,new platonic friends, etc). I think you're trying to keep score way too much - move on and put that energy into meeting others.

[dmveep]

 

Well no -why confront? Just accept that silence is lack of interest. Don't "confront" people if it's not absolutely necessary and feeding your ego so you get some canned 'you're amazing but....." is not necessary. Yes, after a month of dating I would have responded with "this isn't working so no thanks" but after a few dates -no. Nor did I want a response from someone else after only a few dates. Silence = lack of interest and not just in dating (you know, job interviews,new platonic friends, etc). I think you're trying to keep score way too much - move on and put that energy into meeting others.

 

A canned response is better than being left hanging. Perhaps women don't get left waiting and wondering as often, as men usually are responsible for initiating things in the early goings still. You should listen to the audiobook version of Modern Dating by Aziz Ansari. He does a brilliant job of portraying the uncomfortable day that proceeds after you go on what seems like a great date only to have your text unanswered.

 

It just creates unnecessary suffering honestly. I try to be empathetic and be direct as opposed to leaving them with the rollercoaster of emotions that starts hopeful and ends ugly. A canned rejection is direct and appreciated by people. It literally takes three seconds to answer a text that asks if you are interested in getting together or not. Its not even a confrontation, just being a direct communicator. I'm not sure how society evolved to not communicate directly, a funny dance we participate in.

[Batya33]

 

A canned response is better than being left hanging. Perhaps women don't get left waiting and wondering as often, as men usually are responsible for initiating things in the early goings still. You should listen to the audiobook version of Modern Dating by Aziz Ansari. He does a brilliant job of portraying the uncomfortable day that proceeds after you go on what seems like a great date only to have your text unanswered.

 

It just creates unnecessary suffering honestly. I try to be empathetic and be direct as opposed to leaving them with the rollercoaster of emotions that starts hopeful and ends ugly. A canned rejection is direct and appreciated by people. It literally takes three seconds to answer a text that asks if you are interested in getting together or not. Its not even a confrontation, just being a direct communicator. I'm not sure how society evolved to not communicate directly, a funny dance we participate in.

 

Oh I don't agree. I never felt like I was left hanging. Silence =lack of interest after just a few dates. Yes after more than 4 or 5 dates I agree (but I still found the canned responses mostly self-serving, sometimes arrogant/annoying). I was left waiting ALL THE TIME - but I chose not to "wait" -I moved on. I didn't suffer either after that short a time - I mean sure I felt twinges, disappointment etc and typically lasted a few hours maybe a day.

 

I never texted when I dated -I did email though. And instant message - but I made plans over the phone most often and men called me on the phone to ask me out. I called them back.

 

I was harassed several times after being open about not wanting to see the person again and I mean with a polite "thanks so much and I don't think it makes sense for us to keep seeing each other because we don't have enough in common" - one guy I called because he was going to travel a distance to see me again -I told him after two dates I didn't feel chemistry. He thanked me profusely -how he sooooo appreciated it. The next morning in the space of two hours I received 5 emails from him - each one angrier than the next about how I'd lead him on. Email 6 was an apology "I want to be friends". Scary stuff. Here's the silver lining - an hour later my ex fiancee from years ago called me and said "I know we were going to meet for that catch up dinner when I got back from my trip but I'm free tonight -are you?" I was! And was so relieved to have plans with a person who wouldn't talk about dating with me (platonic catch up dinner) - and to get away from the mess of that experience. Sparks flew. We've been married over 10 years now!

 

 

So yes i was "direct" when it was safe and made sense to do so. It's not "evolved" - when I dated in the 80s, 90s, till 2005 it was the same - unless you'd been dating regularly and more than a few times silence =lack of interest. And yes women "waited"

 

The negativity you're spewing, the scorecard, the pontificating about how unfair "society" is -you're getting in your own way. Don't marry society, don't marry a text message, don't marry a scorecard. Find a good match. You can't find one if you're so focused on all this stuff. If you're that focused then consider starting a business around it or getting a related academic degree so at least you'll be transferring all this criticism of dating and society into something positive where you help others or change this society you think is so cruel and unfair.

 

Yes all else equal she should have told you right away "thanks but I don't think we should date anymore -all the best" - and then you should leave it be -not harrangue her for a "reason". If having intercourse is more important to you than feeling emotionally ok after a woman declines to see you again enjoy. But take responsibility for your choice and perhaps be a "direct communicator" with yourself.

[Wiseman2]

Slow down. Go on a few dates before trying to get them into bed. Take one date at a time and text in between, but not too much. Ask them on the date for the next date and confirm midweek. You lack suspense and excitement if it's your place on date one or two or three. Learn to slowly build up attraction and interest.

[bluecastle]

I feel for you, I do. I know know these disappointments. Of course I do—because, like you, I'm a person who has dated. Most of the time it does not work out. That is what "dating" is: meeting people with whom you will not have a sustained romantic connection in hopes of finding the exception to the rule. Was like that 50 years ago, is like that now. Not an app thing or a society thing or a woman vs man thing, but just a people thing.

 

If you can maybe see it like that and define it as such—if you can make that the lesson here—you might find these stings are metabolized a bit differently and that you bring a different energy into the whole experience: that you're driven more my openness and curiosity than the question of if and when you'll be ghosted, slow faded, screwed over, and forced, yet again, onto the emotional rollercoaster of "unnecessary suffering."

 

Because your tone here? It's the tone of a sore loser, being completely frank, and I agree with Batya that it's unlikely going to serve you. Ever play games with people who can't take a loss? There's an inevitable edge that leeches fun out of the play. A pouty aggression. They've "game planned" for the win, seem to think the game was designed solely for their pleasure, to affirm that they are winners, and when they lose it's because the game was rigged, the opponent cheated, a foul wasn't called, a non-foul was deemed a foul, and so on. Not a cute look on the tennis court or air hockey table—and a really nasty one in romance.

 

So, sure, I suppose your lesson here can be about getting a hard "yes" or a hard "no," and giving people 24 hours before the accusatory ultimatum. But I don't think that's going to get you closer to what you want. Good for the ego and pride, for a few minutes, but connection? Not so good. Any remotely healthy person will be in a "maybe" state of my mind during these early days, even early months. To expect them to be "all in" is asking a lot. To expect much of anything from them—aside from what they give you—is asking a lot. But to give them room to be themselves, even if it leaves you momentarily confused or stung? It's a nice gesture and probably what you'd like in return.

 

Sure, in a utopia people would express their feelings with grace, in exactly the way we want them to, never for a moment putting another human being in a state of mind where they are uncertain for a few hours. But that would require human beings to always be certain themselves—of what they want, how they feel—and we're just not built like that. People in long term relationships and marriages often leave the other person feeling confused and hurt, as do close friends. To expect people you've spent a few hours with to be impervious to doing the same is...well, it's just a lot.

[boltnrun]

I was downright rude to a boyfriend of mine when I first met him. He cold approached me with a "hi, how are you". I was dating someone he knew at the time and I thought it was inappropriate for him to be trying to talk to me. After me and that other guy stopped dating I decided to give him a chance. After a couple of months I fell head over heels for him.

 

If he'd continued to push I might not have given him that chance. Or if he'd acted entitled, had expectations or demands. Or "called me out". Definite hard no on any of those things.

[dmveep]

I was downright rude to a boyfriend of mine when I first met him. He cold approached me with a "hi, how are you". I was dating someone he knew at the time and I thought it was inappropriate for him to be trying to talk to me. After me and that other guy stopped dating I decided to give him a chance. After a couple of months I fell head over heels for him.

 

If he'd continued to push I might not have given him that chance. Or if he'd acted entitled, had expectations or demands. Or "called me out". Definite hard no on any of those things.

 

Perhaps, “calling a person out” wasn’t what I meant to say. More of a request for clarification, since I was getting mixed signals for a week and a half.

 

All I said was: Hey, I feel like I’ve been getting mixed signals. Do you want to get together again sometime? No need for explanations, a simple yes or no will do.

 

I’m really just tying to make it easy to give me a rejection so I can get them off my mind and start moving in another direction mentally.

 

She was the one who gave me the line pa out the physical chemistry, unsolicited. I actually don’t really like feedback even though I read an article suggesting asking for it.

 

I do regret not just leaving it at that. Something about having that discussion about hating poor dating behavior with her, only to have her go ahead and do it, just felt really hurtful. Had we not had that conversation, which allowed me to give her the benefit of the doubt to an unanswered text, it would have saved me a week of mixed signal nonsense. Normally, I would just leave the unanswered text at that or possibly ask for clarification if actually like the person. All the other stuff was dumb. I do feel like discussing a perceived lack of physical chemistry could possibly have improved it, but maybe I’m just optimistic. I really have no idea what she meant by that, could mean a variety of things, but all are equally irrelevant.

 

Again, you can only control what you can control which is your own actions. If someone doesn’t respond to a text, asking them for clarification is probably not needed but I don’t really see the harm in asking for it either. If you are feeling unsure about someone or something, you already have your answer. Having a little nudge to make a decision is sometimes necesary

[Wiseman2]

I disagree with any sort of exit reviews. They are meaningless because it is the personal quirk and opinion of someone who you do not hit it off with. If you are concerned, simply send one last text asking for coffee. No answer? Delete, block, done and move forward. Avoid wasting time on poor matches, it prevents the burnout you are describing.

I actually don’t really like feedback even though I read an article suggesting asking for it. If someone doesn’t respond to a text, asking them for clarification is probably not needed but I don’t really see the harm in asking for it either.

[Batya33]

The harm is it increases contact with a person who is not interested in you -never a good feeling -and you end up getting negativity from the canned response or something you end up taking personally. Too much of a risk. Give yourself closure. Silence =lack of interest. I hated when men insisted on that sort of clarification.

 

Two interesting examples. I went out with one guy who insisted on dinner instead of drinks, insisted on a restaurant outside of my budget. Bill back then was around $80 for two (over 20 years ago). I politely offered to split, he accepted (I know, I shouldn't have offered but I also knew I never wanted to see him again). Still -he knew I didn't want to go to a full fancy dinner um maybe he should have insisted on paying. He only talked about himself and in an arrogant way. He emailed me to ask me out again and I politely declined. He begged me for feedback. So I gave it to him - told him about his over-insistence on going to a fancy restaurant, his self-absorption. Over a year later he emailed me again. To thank me for helping him see the light and how it helped him change his behavior.

 

I met another guy -we are now Facebook friends! - we met for a drink and he was a Debbie Downer, male version. So I decided not to see him again. Told him that politely (we had mutual friends). He also begged me for feedback. So I replied with that feedback. 6 months later he emailed me to thank me -that he realized he was so unhappy at his job the negativity was coming through - and he'd quit his job and was starting a new one. (No he didn't want to see me again!). He's in his 50s now and "still"" single even though he's very attractive and successful. He often posts negative/snarky stuff on Facebook so, hmmmmm

 

So in those cases I'm not sorry I did "clarify" - but too many times I was harassed and again I preferred silence to "clarification".

[dmveep]

I disagree with any sort of exit reviews. They are meaningless because it is the personal quirk and opinion of someone who you do not hit it off with. If you are concerned, simply send one last text asking for coffee. No answer? Delete, block, done and move forward. Avoid wasting time on poor matches, it prevents the burnout you are describing.

 

All I meant by clarification is, do you want to see me again or not? Nothing less, nothing more

[Batya33]

All I meant by clarification is, do you want to see me again or not? Nothing less, nothing more

 

You don't need that. If a person wants to see you again that person will respond with enthusiasm and promptly unless there's a phone issue or emergency.

[boltnrun]

Didn't you already cancel?

 

So why bother with the post mortem?

 

She is not obligated to "help" you move on. If you refuse, sorry to be blunt but that's your problem not hers.

[dmveep]

You don't need that. If a person wants to see you again that person will respond with enthusiasm and promptly unless there's a phone issue or emergency.

 

Yes, people sometimes respond in a non-direct way, or drag things out.

 

“Such as I can’t that day, maybe tomorrow?”

[Batya33]

Yes, people sometimes respond in a non-direct way, or drag things out.

 

“Such as I can’t that day, maybe tomorrow?”

 

Right. To me that is insufficient interest to go on a date. At most I'd respond "sure thing -let me know and if I'm free we'll make a plan! Take care!" (I do that regularly now because I'm trying to make new platonic friends).

 

My personal standard with early dating -unless there's a real reason -emergency, illness, out of town travel, work deadline -anything short of an enthusiastic response means "no thanks". When my husband wanted to see me he made a plan two weeks in advance because he knew he'd be out of town. That ended up being the day we got back together.

[reinventmyself]

I'll give you the wrap up.

 

You are a nice guy who met a nice woman and there wasn't an instant spark for her. For whatever reason, you weren't her type. That's not a bad thing. Attraction is subjective.

 

She was closed off and luke warm from the start, but she gave it a chance. Nothing changed for her and she attempted to attach you by being intimate with you and that didn't change things either.

 

Despite all you already knew, you yourself said you begged this closed off woman for another date. Why, I don't know.

 

So there you go. Asking her what she didn't like about you is pointless. There isn't anything to dislike. Certain things were missing therefore she didn't feel the connection.

 

For all you know one of things is she likes skinny, metro sexual type men. You aren't going to be someone different tomorrow, so this information serves no purpose. You wouldn't have morphed yourself into a metro sexual to get her attention anyway.

 

Be glad she let you go so you can focus on finding someone who is attracted to you - the way you deserve and just the way you are.

All I meant by clarification is, do you want to see me again or not? Nothing less, nothing more What do her actions tell you? That's all you need to know.

[dmveep]

You are a nice guy who met a nice woman and there wasn't an instant spark for her. For whatever reason, you weren't her type. That's not a bad thing. Attraction is subjective.

 

She was closed off and luke warm from the start, but she gave it a chance. Nothing changed for her and she attempted to attach you by being intimate with you and that didn't change things either.

 

All I meant by clarification is, do you want to see me again or not? Nothing less, nothing more[/b] What do her actions tell you? That's all you need to know.

 

Solid summary! Actions/body language do speak louder than words. You’re probably right, things were probably lukewarm from the start. There seemed to be a lot of hesitation on her part every step of the way. The only reason I even invited her back to my apartment is to try and figure out if she was interested or not. Her attitude and demeanor gave me this gut feeling that she has baggage to work through that was holding her back. By the way she talked about dating, and her talking about an exes drunken behavior on a first date, really a turn off.

 

I’ve been trying to focus on fun with the dates, but her excessive talks about previous dating experiences should have been a red flag.

 

I guess there really was reason to take this personally. I don’t think I handled myself poorly any step of the way. Perhaps we had sex a little early but that probably had little to do with the outcome.

 

I’m out here! Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Hopefully, I’ll never need to post again.

 

Next!