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I love her, but I don't think I can be happy with her.


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I think she senses you're slipping away and developing yourself exponentially especially in Singapore. It may not be completely related to culture and relationship expectations. Unfortunately she has not developed herself nearly as much as you have or are continuing to do. These can create vast imbalances in a marriage or relationship. I appreciate you taking the time to tell your story in more detail.

 

I married outside of my norm/my culture. I knew early on I did not see eye to eye with the ideals of a society still mired in tremendous gender bias/inequality. Fortunately for me my father never inhibited me or treated me differently from my brothers and we were encouraged to develop ourselves and make choices that best suited us. From there it was clear to me that the development of self and whatever trajectory that would lead to would be the outcome of my upbringing, my choices in life and any difficulties that all that would entail would be related directly to those choices. I had a very close relationship with my father and he was the first man who demanded that I become more than what he made of himself. I suppose that's why I may also demand more out of others and in my relationships. I have the sense that you're taking on a lot of responsibility for your choices but not all of it is in your best interests.

 

Regardless of how we all came to be, I hope that you are able to make peace with your decisions and your life. I don't think it's a bad idea to do all the thinking you're doing now. I think Singapore will be good for you. Even though it is conservative compared to western culture, it is still fairly forward in the way it treats its women and in the way education is at the constant forefront. Keep learning and exploring more about yourself.

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Disentangle yourself from this situation.

 

Despite she being 7 years older than you, Jane is not really that put together. You are under no obligation to support her or be witness to her dysfunction.

 

Maybe get her into a small apartment of he own and in he own name, then poof, you're gone!

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I have prided myself on generally behaving as a morally upright and decent human being. Jane gave me a chance when I did not have much. When I lost my job just a month into our relationship, she did not abandon me or blame me, but just gave me comfort and encouragement. So how can I abandon her now that I have a decent job and improving career? Whilst I am not at fault for her issues at home, I am the indirect cause, or trigger, so I would feel immensely guilty if I abandoned her after she had just lost the only home she has known her entire life because of me.

 

If she were younger, she would have time to find somebody else more suitable. But if I abandoned her, given her age, it is very unlikely she will ever have her own children. She is so shy (I think she has social anxiety) that it is a miracle that she ever let me into her life. If she was more independent and adaptable, she would be able to take care of herself and move on. But she is terrified of change and so dependent on me emotionally... Just earlier I told her that I have some business dinner engagements this weekend, so will not be able to video call her at our usual time until Sunday. She started to cry straight away. *sigh*

 

Putting aside the cultural stuff for a moment, what I can't help but see is a dynamic in which two people are bringing out each other's weaknesses, not strengths, and have been for some time. You both know this on a cellular level but are reluctant to admit it on a cerebral level. Pretty classic knot that occurs when you stay in something you've outgrown, breaking your brain to come up with rationalizations—and, as a result, can't grow authentically.

 

I'll start with her. Past the shyness and fragility that you're hyper-focused on, Jane is very much an adult human being, a woman nearing 40 who is not completely immune to navigating the business of being alive. She earns money, eats, breathes, thinks, feels, gets by just fine. She did this before you. She will do it after you—and, with a different partner, or without, if you can allow the humility to imagine this, with potentially more grace, moxie, and inner-growth than she does with you.

 

Being with you? Well, you have become a mirror to the fragility, enabling, accentuating, and kind of "freezing" one part of her identity as her whole identity, at least inside your co-created dynamic. She cries straight away not because she is a damsel woman-girl, in other words, but because that's the role she's been conditioned to play with you, a role that gets rewarded by you.

 

Which leads us to you. You've got a great spirit, a great mind. While I have no doubt your decency is genuine, and your desire to be a good, decent man genuine, I think something else is tied up in all that nobility. Pride, as you said. A lack of humility. You take "pride" in being "the good guy," and while much of that might by culturally driven there may be something more primal, or at least psychological, gong on too.

 

In Jane you have a pretty "easy" vessel for mainlining that pride, for feeling "big" next to someone you perceive as "small." You met her at a time when you were in a low, battling depression, battling pretty human thoughts and feelings about not meeting your own expectations of yourself by age X, and in ways she remains a mirror to that version of yourself. Someone who "needs" you, in the way she does, becomes something of an immediate fix to that existential angst, a booster shot of self-confidence. You go from being a wayward guy crossing into his 30s to the Man You Want To Be, or perhaps the Man You Are Supposed To Be. I suspect much of what you are currently frustrated with in this dynamic was, in the early days, much of what drew you to it, subconsciously. And to let it go? Well, that means letting go of that booster shot, something your subconscious resists.

 

Culturally you and I come from different stock. I'm a white American dude soon to turn 40, abandoned by my father, raised by an entrepreneurial single mom on the far edges of liberalism, progressive this and that. Very little emphasis on tradition, lots of emphasis on individuality, on learning to listen to your spirit, on being kind to others but not compromising your core selfhood. So my definition of being a "good guy" is basically just being honest—with myself and, by extension, with others. That's a lifelong process, with hits and misses. The people I try to associate with, platonically and romantically, are people that have me hitting more than missing. That too, of course, is a process.

 

That said, I've found myself, at various junctures, adhering to conventions that didn't quite serve me, ideas and ideals, of manhood, of partnership, of women, that aren't so different from what you're reckoning with. I'd say, during those junctures, that I was being dishonest, so that no matter how "good" a man I was, say, to a girlfriend—and I've been a very good boyfriend in the checklist sense, and hold myself to very high standards—that goodness was tarnished by the dishonesty. That taint is like a little tumor that expands in time. Treat it, and we grow; ignore it, and we stay stuck. It has led me to fall short of my own expectations in my past, my own "Cathy-like" experiences when I've been with a Jane. Whether you curb those instincts or indulge them doesn't take away that glitch in the mainframe; the former is better character, without question, but it's still not being applied on the right stage, with the right person.

 

People want to be respected, admired, not pitied. That's not cultural, but human nature 101. When we feel pitied we feel weak, and our weaknesses become us; when we feel respected and admired we feel strong, and our strengths become us. Your dominant feeling toward Jane seems to be pity. Perhaps, once upon a time, she felt something similar to you, and perhaps her mix of pity and love gave you the support you needed to dig in a bit, to go after the job, to grow and be "better," to come further into yourself by harnessing qualities that were there pre-Jane but that being with Jane, early, helped excavate.

 

Great. That was when things worked, to a degree. For you. For her it sounds like the effect on her development has been different, stunting her as you went through a growth spurt. Your levels are different now, and where there was once something like respect there is now something like condescension, pity, to say nothing of a wandering eye. Do those qualities make you the decent person you want to be? Or do they take you further from it? I'd take some time to ask those questions, as it seems you're doing.

 

Keep thinking, keep processing, keep feeling. But keep being honest, with yourself. Humility is your friend right now. Chill with the idea that breaking up is "abandoning" her, relegating her to a shadow of a life that only you can rescue her from. That's just not how life works, how people work. It gives yourself more power than you have and makes her more of a victim than she is. Makes it hard to think, process, and feel on an honest plane.

 

Not sure any of that helps. Just some thoughts, some observations. Gun to head I think you know Jane is not your person, and gun to her head I think she knows this too. That's your dynamic, now. Plenty of people spend their lives together with those guns at their heads, pretending they're not there by leaning into stories of nobility, or intimacy as labor, of compromise (of their core selves, of the truth) as a virtue. In my nearly 40 years stumbling about this planet, I haven't seen a lot of joy in those unions.

 

Do you think you can find joy there?

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Update

 

I feel like people have told me what I needed to hear, but I am really struggling to take decisive action. Partly that is because I am still struggling to let go and really hurt somebody I truly do love, and partly because even if I decide to do it, I don't want to do it when I am not with her in person. I am going back to the UK on Sep 24 and I want to make a final choice before then.

 

I have become more vague and more non-committal when I talk to her about the future, and she has picked up on it... and she responds by pressing me for reassurances and precisely the kind of concrete commitment that I want to avoid, and crying pretty much every time that we video-chat. She asks "do you still love me? do you want to be with me?" and she gets upset when I say things like "do you think we are good for each other? don't you think somebody else could take better care of you?"... She feels me slipping away and she is grasping ever harder. She's booked a date at local government to register our intent to marry, she has gone off birth control (I agreed to this because if I stay with her, we will try for children, if we break up, we won't have sex again) and she is even checking flight tickets to visit me in the most fertile period of her menstrual cycle...

 

I'm not really sure what I am expecting anyone to tell me that I have not already been told. I feel like I have all the information, I feel like the choice is pretty obvious, but it still feels like abandoning my responsibility, leaving a puppy on the roadside, stabbing her in the heart. My chest hurts just thinking about it. Am I being egotistical to think that she cannot survive without me? There has been more drama on her family front, maybe I'll post about that separately... if I abandon her, I am so worried that she will get mad at me, reject my help going forwards, and then get completely screwed over by her evil sister.

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Am I being egotistical to think that she cannot survive without me?

 

In a word? Yes.

 

And I don’t mean that harshly, as it’s clear you care about her and are weighing this all with intention. Still: just as she survived before you, she will survive after. Perhaps she will even find a way to thrive in a way she can’t with you and the dynamic you’ve both created.

 

I’d explore these thoughts a bit, the plane where what’s still drawing you to this might not just be tradition and a sense of duty but, well, ego. I can’t help but think that, along with not wanting to hurt her, which you’re already doing plenty, if passively, you’re wary of giving up the role of her life force, your identity as her blood and oxygen. All that’s given you some confidence over the years, and while it’s pretty clear it’s time to harness that confidence elsewhere, taking a big leap like that is always scary. It means getting more fully in touch with yourself as a mortal, not a superman who can live for two.

 

But imagine, for a moment, a partner referring to you as a “wounded puppy.” Is there any way that you can fathom being okay with that? Any way you can imagine any adult human, regardless of their cultural background and life station, being okay with that?

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Update

 

I feel like people have told me what I needed to hear, but I am really struggling to take decisive action. Partly that is because I am still struggling to let go and really hurt somebody I truly do love, and partly because even if I decide to do it, I don't want to do it when I am not with her in person. I am going back to the UK on Sep 24 and I want to make a final choice before then.

 

I have become more vague and more non-committal when I talk to her about the future, and she has picked up on it... and she responds by pressing me for reassurances and precisely the kind of concrete commitment that I want to avoid, and crying pretty much every time that we video-chat. She asks "do you still love me? do you want to be with me?" and she gets upset when I say things like "do you think we are good for each other? don't you think somebody else could take better care of you?"... She feels me slipping away and she is grasping ever harder. She's booked a date at local government to register our intent to marry, she has gone off birth control (I agreed to this because if I stay with her, we will try for children, if we break up, we won't have sex again) and she is even checking flight tickets to visit me in the most fertile period of her menstrual cycle...

 

I'm not really sure what I am expecting anyone to tell me that I have not already been told. I feel like I have all the information, I feel like the choice is pretty obvious, but it still feels like abandoning my responsibility, leaving a puppy on the roadside, stabbing her in the heart. My chest hurts just thinking about it. Am I being egotistical to think that she cannot survive without me? There has been more drama on her family front, maybe I'll post about that separately... if I abandon her, I am so worried that she will get mad at me, reject my help going forwards, and then get completely screwed over by her evil sister.

 

Honestly, you should tell her that you *do* love her but it seems your lives are going in different directions now - that's honest.

I think you need to marry her or let her go. There are only two choices. Marry her, and you take her with you to Singapore or stop torturing her at this point. Or is there part of you that would let her stay with you in Singapore to see what kind of person she is outside the family dynamic - that's the third option - have her come visit you for a vacation but NOT during her fertile cycle and don't have sex? its really cruel to keep this woman thinking you are marrying her when you do not.

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if I abandon her, I am so worried that she will get mad at me, reject my help going forwards,

 

so you expect her if you break up with her to be the white knight and take care of her....but refuse to be with her? That's really wrong....If the only reasons you reject her are because of her sister and her age - move away from them and do fertility treatments or adopt. But if there is way more...than be honest with her.

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As for Cathy....I do question why she is interested in me when I really think she is out of my league.

 

At the risk of hijacking the main theme of these posts, let me tell you from experience that when you're interested in a woman that turns heads and excites you and is interested in you, the only answer to the question of 'why' should be 'Because I'm worthy of this. She's lucky to have met me.' When you start thinking things like 'out of my league' and doubting your worthiness, that lack of confidence radiates off of you like a beacon. Every woman in the world can sense that, and not a single one of them would find that attractive. I'm not even talking specifically about Cathy, but rather any woman you encounter that affects you this way, if you hope to have any chance at all of her being with you and staying with you for any length of time. Work on that confidence and self-esteem, man. Just my 2¢ worth...

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so you expect her if you break up with her to be the white knight and take care of her....but refuse to be with her? That's really wrong....If the only reasons you reject her are because of her sister and her age - move away from them and do fertility treatments or adopt. But if there is way more...than be honest with her.

 

There is more than just her sister(s) and her age. She refuses to move away anyway - that is another big sticking point. So yeah I have resolved to end it. I will do it next time I see her in person in 2 weeks.

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There is more than just her sister(s) and her age. She refuses to move away anyway - that is another big sticking point. So yeah I have resolved to end it. I will do it next time I see her in person in 2 weeks.

 

What do you do if you breakup with her because she doesn't want to move away, she tells you she has been thinking and is willing to relocate

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At the risk of hijacking the main theme of these posts, let me tell you from experience that when you're interested in a woman that turns heads and excites you and is interested in you, the only answer to the question of 'why' should be 'Because I'm worthy of this. She's lucky to have met me.' When you start thinking things like 'out of my league' and doubting your worthiness, that lack of confidence radiates off of you like a beacon. Every woman in the world can sense that, and not a single one of them would find that attractive. I'm not even talking specifically about Cathy, but rather any woman you encounter that affects you this way, if you hope to have any chance at all of her being with you and staying with you for any length of time. Work on that confidence and self-esteem, man. Just my 2¢ worth...

 

Yes, I get that.

 

My confidence level is a bit hard to define. I am very assured of my basic self worth and my potential. Without exaggeration I used to be considered "elite", I come from a really good family and I have tasted success, respect and leadership roles. However I am also keenly aware of just how much I screwed up my 20s, so objectively speaking, my career is a mess and I have no assurance of future success. So that is a great source of my insecurity when dealing with girls who I know can easily find a more handsome, taller and/or more accomplished partner, not to mention wealthier.

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What do you do if you breakup with her because she doesn't want to move away, she tells you she has been thinking and is willing to relocate

 

I am going to be resolute. Because she agreed to potential relocation the last time I tried to break up with her in June, and then changed her mind a few weeks later. She was basically agreeing to anything and everything to save the relationship, and she might do so again, but I know that even if she did eventually agree to relocate, she will likely hate the change and resent me for it.

 

I will also feel a lot of (financial) pressure if she loses her stable, relaxed and high paying job and cannot find anything near as good again. She did not go to university and refuses to complete the professional qualification that she was studying for when it was interrupted by her father's stroke. So yeah her career prospects are not great if she ever leaves her current employer, who treat her very well because of her experience and proficiency, and nearly 20 years of service.

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One thing I can't help but remark on:

 

In some of your advice to other posters you find ways to tuck in your "conservative" view of men and women, a kind of hunter/gatherer, alpha/beta, earner/carer, or, knight/damsel dynamic that you value. And yet it's with derision that you paint Jane as the concubine who is your ball and chain, frustrated by qualities that you also seem to seek.

 

Would it be different, do you think, if Jane was, I don't know, 25? Same struggles with the buying of the car, but offset perhaps by a bit more friskiness between the sheets? Same general subservience, but offset by the idea that her wings are still growing, with your attentive pruning, instead of having been pre-clipped by a family dynamic that pre-shaped her in ways that limited your ability to do much shaping?

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Would it be different, do you think, if Jane was, I don't know, 25? Same struggles with the buying of the car, but offset perhaps by a bit more friskiness between the sheets? Same general subservience, but offset by the idea that her wings are still growing, with your attentive pruning, instead of having been pre-clipped by a family dynamic that pre-shaped her in ways that limited your ability to do much shaping?

 

Hmmm that is a good question. I think if she were 25 years old, or even 30, it would change the equation on a number of issues.

 

1) I would feel like I have more time. I definitely would not be considering marriage and family whilst my own career is in the air. My career is my priority right now, fixing the damage of my 20s... I really do not feel ready to start a family, especially not with a partner who needs so much time and attention herself.

 

2) The sex issue is not so much a quality issue as a quantity issue. More precisely a future quantity issue. It is not as exciting as when I was younger, but it is okay and I am fine with how often we had sex when we lived together. But it does worry me that in a few years, I will probably not find her physically attractive anymore, due to her ageing and unwillingness to watch her weight. Am I okay for my sex life to end around 40? Probably not.

 

3) As you alluded, if she were younger, I would feel that there would be more potential for growth and development. She would not be so set in her ways, maybe she would take up my advice to learn a new language and complete her professional qualification.

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What are your plans after the UK trip when you return? Are you staying in SG for a bit longer? You should travel SEA while you're down there and visit Australia and NZ. Take the opportunity.

 

My contract in SG was for one year. Without an extension I will go back to the UK next March. I had planned to go back to the UK every 3 months to see Jane. Obviously if we break up, I will probably not take as much leave and just use public holidays for some travel in Asia instead.

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My contract in SG was for one year. Without an extension I will go back to the UK next March. I had planned to go back to the UK every 3 months to see Jane. Obviously if we break up, I will probably not take as much leave and just use public holidays for some travel in Asia instead.

 

That sounds great.

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3) As you alluded, if she were younger, I would feel that there would be more potential for growth and development. She would not be so set in her ways, maybe she would take up my advice to learn a new language and complete her professional qualification.

 

So you want to find another project - a young woman that you can mold. Right now you have a woman who is 7 years older and you were attracted to the fact that she was inexperienced, needed saving and her world revolved around you. But if she were 25, that would be hotter because maybe she would have time to grow? I am wondering if you explored your own insecurities yourself.

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3) As you alluded, if she were younger, I would feel that there would be more potential for growth and development. She would not be so set in her ways, maybe she would take up my advice to learn a new language and complete her professional qualification.

 

So you want to find another project - a young woman that you can mold. Right now you have a woman who is 7 years older and you were attracted to the fact that she was inexperienced, needed saving and her world revolved around you. But if she were 25, that would be hotter because maybe she would have time to grow? I am wondering if you explored your own insecurities yourself.

 

I think there is a tendency to over-diagnose on this forum, because the regs here must have seen years and years and thousands of cases of broken people, broken relationships, the same patterns over and over. Plus I think the reputation system and the culture that has developed here, encourages an almost investigative journalism approach to each story that we are presented with. This is not a criticism, any group of people will develop a culture, with its inherent pros and cons. A less critical community here would over-diagnose issues less, but also provide far less critical analysis and far fewer insightful answers.

 

I have honestly reflected on what you (and others) have written... I accept that I have behaved at least somewhat co-dependent with regards to Jane and I accept that some personal insecurities are involved in why I allowed such a dynamic to persist as long as it did without recognizing it as inherently problematic. However...

 

1) I am not going to apologize for holding conservative values and a different worldview. This forum seems to be mostly North American (US/Canada) and overwhelmingly Western. I mostly lived in the UK, but I am strongly influenced by traditional Chinese values as well. I inherently value femininity, family, responsibility etc... and reject sexual promiscuity in the guise of female empowerment. Not that I wish to impose my values on others, if some women truly do find meaningless sex "liberating" and fulfilling, then all power to them. I do not expect my partner to be a virgin either, I just want somebody who has similar views regarding sex and intimacy and hasn't had a dozen sexual partners by 30. That does not point to underlying misogyny or insecurity, I am allowed to hold different cultural and ethical values.

 

So did I consider Jane's romantic inexperience to be a positive point? Kind of, no baggage from previous relationships was certainly positive, my culture values virginity too, I must admit. But it did also concern me at the time why she had no experience at 37 years old. I did not know about her anxiety and insecurities and the fact that she "needed saving" until after we were in a relationship. I did not seek out that baggage. When I first met her, she seemed happy, carefree and kind, a positive energy to be around... That is what drew me to her, in addition to her beauty and femininity.

 

2) I do not have a history of pursuing broken women to fix. With the exception of my first girlfriend and Jane, every other relationship I have been in, or girls that I have pursued, have been generally popular, well adjusted, confident, intelligent, independent etc... (to different extents, of course). In fact I consistently pursue girls "better than me", in terms of intelligence, EQ, physical attractiveness, economic circumstances etc. My "success rate" is not very good, admittedly, but I have never been interested in settling for somebody who does not excite me, does not make me think, "wow! I wish she could be my girlfriend!". I don't think this is the mentality of somebody with deep-seated insecurities looking for broken women to fix.

 

If Cathy is still single and available after everything is settled with Jane, I may see if I can initiate something with her. She is "out of my league" in the terms I described above, totally driven, successful and independent. I admit that I find her a little scary, but I am very attracted to her qualities at the same time. Again, I don't think that is the thought process of a seriously co-dependent person looking for another damsel to save.

 

ps: @abitbroken please do not mistake this post as aimed at you or completely rejecting what you have said. I do appreciate all the responses I have received, even if I don't perhaps agree with some of them 100%. I started off answering your question in particular, but it kind of grew into a general response to previous posts regarding my co-dependency and insecurities. I repeat, I accept that I have been at least enabling Jane's dependency, and that does reflect some of my own insecurities... but how many healthy human beings are completely free of some insecurities? Isn't it natural? I think we are a bit quick to prescribe therapy on this forum sometimes.

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I don't think anyone who engages in anything meaningless is leading an empowered life.

 

It's usually a good idea to neutralize gender and racial stereotypes. When we leave the stereotypes at the door, we're less likely to be misinterpreted. It's also a good idea to separate stable from unstable, better life choices from ones that are not so great. I think your thoughts surrounding both women will clarify further once you remove these layers more. I don't think Cathy is what you think she is either. People do have a way of unraveling. I'd cross one bridge at a time.

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It's usually a good idea to neutralize gender and racial stereotypes. When we leave the stereotypes at the door, we're less likely to be misinterpreted.

 

I respectfully disagree regarding gender differences/stereotypes. Note I say difference with no implication of superiority or superiority between the sexes, I just think that they generally have different roles to play in society and family, based on biological differences and social norms (which developed for good reason).

 

I am more inclined to agree with you on race, because I recognize that there is generally more diversity within a population group than between population groups. i.e. there is going to be Chinese liberals and American liberals, Chinese conservatives and American conservatives. So in the above I was mostly talking about my values.

 

I don't think Cathy is what you think she is either. People do have a way of unraveling. I'd cross one bridge at a time.

 

Yes of course she is not perfect, I recognize that. She does have some baggage with heartbreak and the insecurity that likely caused.

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Ah yes. But superiority is usually implied in the oppression of any sex or gender when social norms limit opportunities or stifle growth.

 

In other words, it's an unfortunate reality that the upholding of many societal norms (those pertaining to femininity, family and responsibility as it affects women to be more specific, using your terms above) usually do suppress and oppress women. The idea that women stay home and raise the kids, take care of the home and are not educated, don't receive equal pay or opportunities for the same positions at work as men and so on. That imbalance created or the expectations of either gender that arise from it does a disservice to humanity as a whole as it can limit (it does not always limit or oppress but it can if women do not feel like they have a choice).

 

The notion of virginity or the commodity of virginity as a product is age old. Let's not joke about how this has been bought and sold in history. I'm speaking with you, by the way, like a friend so don't feel put out by my comments or thoughts. This is back and forth banter only, chit chatting. Underground sex slave industries and the network of prostitution in Southeast Asia, India and the rest of the developing world is a terrible smear on society where underaged girls are bought and sold and their prices are directly related to their virginity treated as commodities or products. When we bring in social norms and add ideas such as sexual promiscuity in the context of the West I don't think it should be confused with sexual autonomy as a whole and empowerment of a gender across the globe. Empowerment comes from breaking out of social norms that imprison or limit, oppress or endanger. I think it's a powerful and very valuable word considering the existing atrocities that are ongoing.

 

I think we can evolve from that and empower women and men (anyone, for that matter) in better ways. I agree with you on acknowledging those differences but I think we can also share the responsibilities and create opportunities for people where there don't exist currently. There's room for more growth and more good in this world.

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