Questioning One's Own Relationship

[Batya33]

May I ask where this comment is coming from? What prompted you to make it?

 

Certainly not from me; I never once mentioned this was any sort of issue for us. All I said was we were discussing having a child someday. We even discussed adoption.

 

Not being married does not mean we are any less committed, to each other, or having a family.

 

It also does not mean we won't consider it in the future, but for now it's a non-issue.

 

Because you said you were talking about living together and having a child. From that I assumed you meant you were comfortable having a child without being married. Many people do. No judgment - a common sense follow up of what you wrote. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having a child with someone I wasn't married to for several reasons. You do -or now that you've added information -you do initially and might choose marriage down the road. But you don't feel you need to be married before having a child. I didn't feel the need to be married to try to conceive because I was 40 and because we knew before trying that we would get married earlier if I were to get pregnant. Others would feel differently.

 

Of course non-married people can be just as committed to having a family. That perspective has nothing to do with my reasoning and it does have to do with your reasoning/feelings.

[Batya33]

One place where I think you and I have a similar mindset about relationships is that we both place a very high value on the quality of a connection—on the idea that a strong connection is in ways more important than whatever label is put on it.

 

"In your shoes, while I would find it pretty easy to forgive and even understand his decision to keep his marriage a secret, the discovery would 100 percent lead me to conclude that our connection was not as strong as I'd thought. Or at least not built from the same stuff I thought it was being built with. There would be no way around that.

 

So while for Batya, who values marriage and makes those values clear, it would understandably represent someone who did not respect her values and share them in the same way; to me, as someone who values self-ownership and feels that a strong connection can't be forged and sustained without that on both sides, I'd be concerned that I was with someone who dodged their truth maybe more than faced it. Or that, to some degree, I was in a relationship with someone who saw me more as a place to hide from themselves than continue on a path of self-acceptance."

 

To me marriage is a label and that it technically is used as a "label" has nothing to do with why I value it and I know for sure it is far far from "just a label". Just like a college degree is not just a "piece of paper". I wrote that his lie would be a dealbreaker on its own and even more so in my individual case if he knew how much I valued marriage. even more so. It still would be a dealbreaker for all the reasons BC wrote. It would mean he wasn't as connected to me, didn't really see a future with me as much as I did with him.

 

I value the connection above all else -but no matter how strong the "connection" I would not have continued dating someone if he changed his mind about wanting marriage and family. So in that way marriage and family were far more important to me than feeling connected to someone. And because I feel so strongly about marriage -not as a label!- I wouldn't have felt as connected to someone who didn't value marriage in the same way.

 

I do think certain people marry for the label. Or for the party celebrating the wedding ceremony which makes me nauseous -the people who focus so much more on the party than the marriage. Ick.

 

Certainly I have experienced both sides -the single label and the married label -it really is something how much easier it is to be a married couple at least where I live/have lived. Whether or not the relationship is strong or healthy or whatever. I think it's fine to have a marriage that is just a label as long as both people want that. I do not think people should have marriage as a goal if they think of it as just a label or have doubts about that sort of commitment. It's not a one size fits all thing at all.

 

A counter example. A good friend started dating a guy in the early 1990s. Over the moon right away. Mutually. After dating about 4-6 months seriously he confessed that he had lied. He had felt intimidated by how educated and successful she was (she also was a couple of years older than him) so he lied and said he'd been able to start college at 16 and finish faster -something like that -because he was so smart (no he didn't brag- that was the implication). It wasn't true. I would have walked away. She didn't -she forgave him and understood he felt insecure, etc. He was in his early 20s at the time. They've been married almost 25 years now. I don't believe he told any other lies and he is a very fine person -gives back so much to the community, all around good guy, etc. Their marriage has had it's challenges for sure - and he's not perfect of course- far from it in some ways - but I do believe he is a person of integrity.

[katrina1980]

Because you said you were talking about living together and having a child. From that I assumed you meant you were comfortable having a child without being married. Many people do. No judgment - a common sense follow up of what you wrote. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having a child with someone I wasn't married to for several reasons. You do -or now that you've added information -you do initially and might choose marriage down the road. But you don't feel you need to be married before having a child. I didn't feel the need to be married to try to conceive because I was 40 and because we knew before trying that we would get married earlier if I were to get pregnant. Others would feel differently.

 

Of course non-married people can be just as committed to having a family. That perspective has nothing to do with my reasoning and it does have to do with your reasoning/feelings.

 

I know that now Bat, I am just a bit of a "mess" right now emotionally, but thank you for clarifying.

[Batya33]

I know that now Bat, I am just a bit of a "mess" right now emotionally, but thank you for clarifying.

 

I understand. It's big stuff. I went through those twists and turns and doubts and questioning many many times. Really really painful. I feel guilty about how I subjected certain boyfriends too all of my self-doubts, insecurities. I feel good because the one I ended things with 7 months before my husband and I got back together met his "one" two years after we finally ended things and I assume he is happily married. She wanted to meet me very very badly so I did meet her. Not my cup of tea but I could see where they were a good match.

[bluecastle]

Your counter example is interesting, Batya. I have an example of something in between that I'll share because it might be relevant to K.

 

My oldest friend in the world got married at 28. It was a "technical" marriage. He was pretty wayward—classic 20something stuff—and had no health insurance. Wisdom teeth were coming in hard, he needed surgery, so he and his girlfriend got married, kind of in secret, with yours truly as witness in the courthouse. They'd been together since they were 15, so the idea was: we'll get "really" married later, once things settle.

 

Things didn't settle. He was hitting the skids hard, and they broke up a year or so later. He came beautifully into his own after that, got focused, got a great job, and eventually met a wonderful woman. During those three years he and his ex didn't speak—so they were still technically married—and when he met this woman he was finally making the divorce technical. No drama. A $500 paperwork thing to undo a $100 marriage.

 

I'd imagine, knowing my friend, that he planned to take that marriage (and all the shame associated with it) to the grave, and that he certainly thought his new girlfriend would "freak" if she learned. Well, she learned—thanks to my mother, who has a big mouth. She'd been the only person I told, and she let it slip at a brunch.

 

At that point my friend had only been dating this new woman for maybe a month, still that discovery time. She asked him about it afterward, he told her the story in dread. She felt for him, was totally understanding—and probably, in that moment, my friend learned what it feels like to be accepted by someone, that he didn't need to edit himself or hide from himself to be loved.

 

They got married two years ago, have a son on the way.

 

The funny thing is that both he and his wife are really thankful to my blabbermouth mom—we all spent Thanksgiving together, joked about this—because had it remained a secret longer there's no way they would have worked. She could be understanding after a month, but not after half a year or longer, you know? She would have freaked then, for sure, and would have left him. And he, instead of learning to own himself and the self-empowerment that comes from keeping everything in a single compartment, would have still been more driven by shame, more compartmentalized, less evolved. So a foundation that could have been all sorts of fragile was made stronger—super lucky, that whole thing.

 

Which brings us back to the conversation at hand. Only you can say, K, if this is the sort of thing that appeals to you as something to "plough through," be it the appeal of teaching your boyfriend to be more self-accepting or the appeal of proving to yourself that you can be committed through thick and thin. Just make sure you're operating from the story as it's playing out, that you're writing together, and not a story you're writing in your own imagination. I think anxiety is often the result of the real story not matching the one in our heads—and that therapy, which you sound interested in, can be really helpful in learning to see those two things clearly so we can make clearer choices.

[katrina1980]

 

Which brings us back to the conversation at hand. Only you can say, K, if this is the sort of thing that appeals to you as something to "plough through," be it the appeal of teaching your boyfriend to be more self-accepting or the appeal of proving to yourself that you can be committed through thick and thin. Just make sure you're operating from the story as it's playing out, that you're writing together, and not a story you're writing in your own imagination. I think anxiety is often the result of the real story not matching the one in our heads—and that therapy, which you sound interested in, can be really helpful in learning to see those two things clearly so we can make clearer choices.

 

That was a great post blue, but wanted to copy the above quote as it's especially relevant.

 

To clarify, I don't really feel I am teaching him anything per se, more to the point, we are both teaching "each other," learning from each other as we plough through these sometimes choppy waters.

 

With respect to him withholding that he was previously married, not justifying it, it was wrong for sure, but he didn't realize it was wrong at the time as dysfunctional as that sounds.

 

He had not yet developed the necessary trust that would allow him to feel comfortable sharing that with me. Others may not understand this, but I do.

 

Without disclosing too much, his relationships prior to me had been cold and emotionally distant. His marriage was definitely cold and distant, and his relationship before me was with a body-builder (female) and their relationship focused mostly on that, as he was into that too at the time. That was the extent of their bond.

 

With me, we had some minor bumps along the way, due to two semi-damaged people attempting to come together. But we are learning together, growing together, healing together as odd as that might sound to some. And now have finally developed the mutual trust to be more open and share.

 

It goes back to what you posted blue, it took some time but we are both learning what it feels like to be accepted by someone, that neither of us needs to edit ourselves or hide from ourselves to be loved. Or as I used to refer to it, and even created a thread about a few years back - pretending to be someone or something we are not.

 

He did not feel that from me back then, nor did I from him.

[figureitout23]

So Kat, first things first, I have not read this whole thread, I read the first page and kinda glanced at everything else. You, bat and blue appeared to be vibing so I kinda didn’t bother with the post, your response to Irka on her post prompted me to see what she wrote, that’s when I responded yesterday... so yeah I’m rambling... anway, Im telling you this because my response is coming from the sidelines, I haven’t been watching closely so bear with me.

 

Look at Irkas response to you:

 

Katrina, you are truly special woman and helped so many people on here..... Like someone already mentioned, your man is lucky to have you. Enjoy it....

As you may recall I am full of anxiety....however I recently absorbed a short but powerful book that helped me immensely. I feel more free than ever before....my mind is free....I refuse to overthinking and believe in my stories I create on regular basis.

Please read Don Miguel Ruiz work and it should blow your mind....some things are obvious and we all know about it ....some are obvious but we are blind to them.

My mind was full of the thoughts you shared in your post.....now when they try to enter my mind ,I deal with them accordingly...and I am so much lighter....

As you always say, trust in the connection you have with your man....

After all, it's really not easy to click with someone....you can be attracted but very often it is temporary.

Trust but also aware as Wiseman so rightly pointed out but most importantly enjoy it :)

 

Look at what she wrote...

 

The bold sounds very much like your verbiage.

 

I mean absolutely no disrespect sometimes it can be a bit overkill, I mean a poster can be like:

 

“Hey guys should I eat jiffy peanut butter?”

 

And you’ll respond:

 

“Yes jiffy is my favorite, my boyfriend doesn’t like it and we’ve never been happier! 1.75 years together!”

 

Im exaggerating obviously but seriously only a little. I didn’t notice it at first, it wasn’t until after your last post about your doubts, where you kinda admitted to well overcompensating and there were well normal relationship issues that arise going on, they were worked through, awesome/great, you almost immediately jumped back to doing it again...

 

I’m reminded of posters who have 3 posts, a year ago and come back to the heartbreak board to post their amazing updates... which are 9 times out of 10 rebound stories, or as I was saying look at irkas post. 32 seconds after writing that she’s got a new post which proves she’s in the exact same headspace burdening her boyfriend and lord knows who else with her anxiety, but look at what she wrote...

 

OVERCOMPENSATION.

 

Now I’m not saying your relationship isn’t strong or that you don’t love one another or any of that.

 

I’m saying, to me, it seems, something in you seems to make you feel the need to project perfection when nobodies even looking.

 

What are you overcompensating for?

[katrina1980]

I am not sure FIO, but I actually caught myself doing it as well..

 

I did same thing w my ex (the long term ex), I was not a member here at that time but goodness gracious, the way I posted about him and our relationship, one would think our love story was akin to something Shakespeare would write.

 

When the reality was it was anything but. Did same thing with my dad, when younger and even into my 20s.

 

My emotions are literally all over the place, which is why I have decided to seek infividual therapy. To figure it out.

 

But if I had to guess, I compensate because when I love a man, really love him, I live in a sort of never-never land because living in a real relationship where there are problems and issues threatening the relationship is to painful, so I catapult myself into a sort of denial about them.

 

With my current, I find myself breaking away from that, but then I revert back.

 

But i am aware of it, so that's a step. Hopefully, a good qualified therapist will help me break all the way through.

 

You admit to not having read the entire thread, so you may not have read this, but with respect to my posts to others, I admit to feeling like a bit of a hypocrite sometimes, if only I could apply what I post to others, to my own relationship(s).

 

But I am beginning to have a breakthrough so that's a positive.

 

Thanks FIO for calling me on that. As I said, I noticed myself doing it too, was hoping no one else did, but you did, not a huge surprise.

 

Hope that makes sense, as I said, my emotions are all over the place right now.

[katrina1980]

To add, this need for perfection, it's not limited to only relationships.

 

Ever since I was a young girl, I have had this need to be "perfect."

 

In school, I had to get straight As, my parents didn't even expect it, I expected it of myself.

 

I struggled with a serious eating disorder (have posted about this) because of my need to have the "perfect" body.

 

My job, no mistakes, ever! And when I do, I beat myself up bad. My bosses rarely critiitize because they know I am my worst critique, and will learn from it.

 

My apt, everything needs to look and be perfect.

 

Even my posts on this forum need to be perfect. You probably have not noticed but if there is so much as a comma missing or a word misspelled, I will go back and edit. If it's too late, I'm like ugh.

 

I mean come on Kat, who cares? I guess I do.

 

My family, my friends, my boyfriends all tell me, it's okay! You don't need to be perfect all the time! I will still love you!

 

On the forum before ENA, there was one poster who called me out, asking me why this need to project perfection just like you did FIO.

 

I denied it because I was not as self-aware back then.

 

But I am more self-aware now, and feel like I am breaking through.

 

Hopefully, again, with the help of a therapist, I will get there all the way.

[boltnrun]

I was abused as a child and the only thing I could "control" was myself and my own environment.

 

What cured me of that was 1) serious health issues. I viewed these as my own body betraying me, and I COULD NOT DO A THING ABOUT IT! I could get hysterical about it, or I could accept it. 2) I ask myself "what would happen if there's a cushion out of place, or a picture that's not hung perfectly straight, or the trash isn't taken out immediately? Famine? Apocalypse? Asteroid smashing into Earth?" Of course not!

 

I did notice that you tend to portray your relationship as being the Best! Relationship! Eva! and your "wonderful connection!!!111" and I too thought you were overcompensating. Trying too hard to convince who? Us? Yourself?

 

I think this thread was an awesome idea. I mean, you started out on a kind of different topic but it's evolved so much. I think you like to explore yourself and your feelings and motivations, and this is a great platform to do so.