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Girlfriend wants to stay with ex abroad.


dave_1966
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I’ve been dating a lovely woman for three months, and I’m falling in love with her and vice-versa. I’ve gone through a maelstrom of emotions the last six months with family deaths, and she’s been an absolute rock.

 

She has an ex from many years ago whom she stays friends with, she finished with him because he’s exceptionally good looking who can’t be trusted but has given her work over the years (we are both freelancers). We are in Belfast but don’t live together yet, and he’s based in North Vietnam. She often chats with him, and does work for him free of charge. There is a picture of him on the wall in her house. I’m a firm believer in not being possessive or needy, and letting your partner do what the hell she likes. I do trust her entirely.

 

However, he spoke to her a week ago and told her he had to sell his beach house and move to the Vietnamese capital in order to get more work. He told her that perhaps she would like to stay at his beach house whilst it was on the market, and perhaps work from there. When she communicated his proposal via text to me she described the call ‘profound’ ‘head spinning’ and opening a ‘Pandora’s box’. The following day she said she wouldn’t be going as she had everything she wanted here.

 

The subject then popped up again (I’ve never met the dude, but I know he’s forceful and doesn’t take no for an answer) and she said it would be fine for me to go too. I called her bluff by saying cool, I could do with a holiday. I thought he may back off at this.

 

The other night she mentioned this again, and I said it sounds interesting and I couldn’t wait. She then said yes, we could go out and then perhaps she could go out again afterwards before the property is sold. She said he wouldn’t be there, she’d be on her own as her ex would be a flight away in the capital.

 

Last night I called her and said that I was completely uneasy with this Vietnam thing, couldn’t fathom why she would possibly need two trips to this beach house in a very short period of time. She said it just sounds cool, and he wouldn’t be around. She said it might be lonely, but her ex is a good friend and she likes to explore new places. I then told her I was very uneasy about this, and that the whole thing was very disrespectful and implausible of this guy. For a week I’ve had no idea whether her trip would be days, weeks, or months. She says she doesn’t know herself. I frankly don’t believe she’d be alone there if she went, he’s a short cheap flight away. My girlfriend is a very empathetic decent person, but I’ve never met him but know he’s a womaniser. This is why she dropped him decades ago. I love her to bits, but after my chat with her last night things seem strained. I’ve treated all my girlfriends in the past in a non-clingy fashion, and they’ve all done holidays alone with girlfriends without any issue. This, however, is inappropriate and I’ve communicated it as such. Staying at an exes beach house on the other side of the planet has crashed in to my personal boundaries and created a red flag, and I think he knows what he’s doing. It feels like triangulation. She has stressed to me there’s nothing to worry about, she’ll be alone, but I think he’ll jump on a flight and be there with her even if she doesn’t know this yet. I trust her implicitly, but not the ex.

 

I am also struggling with why she’s suggested I join her on a friends holiday elsewhere which she booked before we got together, but the Vietnam trip is a whole different kettle of fish. I’m upset by this, and having said how I feel about it am now waiting for her response. I think I’m being played by the ex at the very least, but if she goes there alone I’m not sure I’ll be here for her when she gets back. Am I being correct with my thoughts on this? This is make or break in my opinion.

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You don't trust her though, because deep down you know she is not over her ex. You're clearly very intimidated by him. She said you could go so why don't you if it bothers you so much? She say's she'll be alone so what's stopping you going with her? Personally i think you're overreacting a little and everything is just speculation. Go with her.

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I totally get why you want to be cool with someone staying friends with an ex; seems the right thing to do, you don't want to be clingy - all the rest. All very mature and civilised.

 

Some exes do like to put their oar in from time to time, and he's clearly one of them. He's also no respecter of monogamy, by the sound of it. There's a huge difference between occasional contact to say "Hi" with no further consequences; and having frequent contact with an ex, keeping their picture up on the wall and, in this case, making a long haul trip to a part of the world where she knows he will be.

 

You are right to let your partner do what the hell s/he likes, as you can't control another person. However, one of the key things about dating in the early days is that you get to know your partner, know their values and see if they chime with yours. In this case, they very clearly don't - and I have to say I wouldn't be waiting for her to get back from Vietnam either. You say your girlfriend is a very empathetic decent person, but she's not showing you any empathy at all in this matter; it sounds more as though her empathy is due to a lack of boundaries. Going out with her for a holiday might feel a bit weird, but doesn't suggest anything untoward. Her then saying that she'll go back on her own afterwards, well... does.

 

Having an ex in the background like this will undermine your relationship in the longer term, even if there is nothing going on physically. It will eat away at you, and fear and suspicion will grow in the place that love should; I'd bail before you get any more involved with her emotionally.

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You don't trust her though, because deep down you know she is not over her ex. You're clearly very intimidated by him. She said you could go so why don't you if it bothers you so much? She say's she'll be alone so what's stopping you going with her? Personally i think you're overreacting a little and everything is just speculation. Go with her.

 

Please read again, when I suggested this she mentioned taking two trips.

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Please read again, when I suggested this she mentioned taking two trips.

 

I read it, that's why i said go with her (meaning both times). You're justified in your speculation about the likelihood of him turning up, judging by the fact that she keeps talking to him and keeps a photo of him (that one is a little weird tbh). Like i said, go with her. You clearly think something is going to happen between them. It's clear she is not over him.

 

Why didn't she invite you?

 

She did, there's a part where she said it's cool for him to go.

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She described his call as profound, head-spinning and opening a Pandora’s Box

 

Her emotions are still tangled up with him, as evidenced by the language she used to describe the call with him.

 

Not a great sign, even if she doesn’t wind up going for some reason.

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Her emotions are still tangled up with him, as evidenced by the language she used to describe the call with him.

 

Not a great sign, even if she doesn’t wind up going for some reason.

 

This ^^^. She may not be officially in a relationship with him, but she's allowed him to put a bomb under your relationship. Or open Pandora's Box, whichever you prefer. They come to much the same thing.

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I was all good with it until she mentioned two trips as soon as you decided to join her.

 

I have an ex who’s family used to own property on a big lake, a fun vacation spot. They didn’t live there, they rented it out, and they let me stay there free of charge a few times. I even stayed there a week with a new boyfriend. Never saw the ex, never saw his family, I just maintained a good relationship with all of them, from a distance. No harm done.

 

But as soon as she learned that you’d be joining her, suddenly there was a need for a second trip...alone. Why? Red flag there. Because of this, I agree with the others. She’s hoping for something.

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She's way too involved with the ex. And your gut will rarely steer you wrong. You know there is something wrong with the 2nd trip. You say she is a decent person, but do you really ever fully know anyone after only 90 days together?

 

Your relationship boundaries don't match. Boundaries are a major thing a couple needs to match on to have a successful relationship. When you are regularly upset with a relationship, it means it's not the right one for you. Thinking of how I've felt during the excitement of a budding relationship only 3 months in where hormones are going crazy, I can't imagine being excited about a trip alone. Nope, it doesn't add up.

 

You're barely invested in this, so get out now before you waste anymore time so you'll be single when a woman who matches your boundaries shows up.

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She is very obviously not over this guy and everything about her behavior, the way she described the call as "head spinning, Pandor's Box,etc." her then turning around and telling herself and you that she won't be going because she has everything here, but then changing her mind and deciding to go, the picture on the wall.... You called her bluff and she solved it by "well, I'll just go again without you". Are you sure he was the cheater? Just because he is attractive doesn't make the man a womanizer. However, your lady is acting very very shady in terms of trying to get with this ex while keeping you in the back pocket at home waiting on her. She is the one setting up a cheating situation here. I'm afraid your empathetic flower is more like a venus flytrap and you are the fly.

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My girlfriend is a very empathetic decent person, but I’ve never met him but know he’s a womaniser. This is why she dropped him decades ago. I love her to bits

 

Why would any of this change?

 

She knows what kind of man he is, it's why she dumped him. She sounds like a smart woman, she's not going to be running back into his arms.

 

Honestly, I think you're worrying for nothing.

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I’ve been dating a lovely woman for three months, and I’m falling in love with her and vice-versa. I’ve gone through a maelstrom of emotions the last six months with family deaths, and she’s been an absolute rock.

 

She has an ex from many years ago whom she stays friends with, she finished with him because he’s exceptionally good looking who can’t be trusted but has given her work over the years (we are both freelancers). We are in Belfast but don’t live together yet, and he’s based in North Vietnam. She often chats with him, and does work for him free of charge. There is a picture of him on the wall in her house. I’m a firm believer in not being possessive or needy, and letting your partner do what the hell she likes. I do trust her entirely.

 

No you do not. And really, you should not.

 

As others have pointed out, she is still attached to this man with a beach house in Vietnam.

 

I think you're in the end game of this relationship.

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Why would any of this change?

 

She knows what kind of man he is, it's why she dumped him. She sounds like a smart woman, she's not going to be running back into his arms.

 

Honestly, I think you're worrying for nothing.

 

Why would she hang up a photo up of this ex if there was no feelings there? Because she's still no over him. Thats why she wants to jump on this opportunity alone so she can see him.

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dave, do you want to hear something interesting?

 

i remember seeing you on here through the years. i can never remember anything specific that you've shared, but what i always remember is "oh dave, right, the guy who will put up with anything because he genuinely wants to be a non-judgemental, accepting person".

 

I promise i mean nothing negative by that. The way you express your concerns doesn't read like something written by your regular too-empathic-for-his-own-good doormat either. It reads like it's coming from someone with actual social awareness and a humanistic perspective. Admirable- if done with dignity.

 

I went to refresh my memory of the "specifics". You've wanted to not be biased by mental health issues, autism, suicidal ideation in a promiscuous dependant friend, now a woman oddly attached to an ex. Look, really, the way you want to not be influenced by the often superficial judgements that would alienate many others from these individuals speaks really well of you, but you also keep getting hurt by these people. I think there's a huge difference between love and compassion for human beings with all their failings and struggles and not recognizing when this sentiment blinds you to the fact humanity is much easier to love than specific human personalities are. It won't make you a bad person if, while feeling that "challenging" people deserve not to be judged, you also establish that their traits have a tendency to be too painful, harmful and unfair on others up close.

 

i don't want to make assumptions about what kind of people you choose to surround yourself so my apologies if i'm off base here, but from what you share with us, i can't help wondering. Wondering things like whether you look for women who have no ongoing relationship with an ex, no significant "active" mental health problems etc. It seems like it's always the ones that have something you'll have to learn to accept and love. It's nice if you feel like you want to challenge yourself to accept imperfections, but i feel like you struggle to filter those imperfections. Somehow i picture you faced with the option of turning down a woman afflicted with something fairly unpleasant for others, but who is otherwise charming and pleasant, simply for the affliction alone, and you going "absolutely not, that would be so shallow/judgemental". and then promptly suffering for it.

 

For reasons completely irrelevant to this thread, i feel very strongly about being very accepting and understanding and non judgemental about people with schizophrenia specifically, i mean to a greater extent than others even. But hell naw i wouldn't date them, i don't wish the suffering on myself. The illness doesn't make them bad, it just makes them unlikely to not be too much pain and hurt for a partner (and by that i mean me specifically). I don't feel like it makes me hypocritical or a "fake ally" or something like that, you know? Is that behind it, with you, would you feel it's hypocritical to be non judgemental whilst refusing to get personally involved (with people with continued close friendships with exs, with a symptomatic mental health problem etc)?

 

just because you believe that in theory, a woman can stay close to her ex and not have romantic motives for that, it doesn't mean this is true for her or most cases even. this one clearly does not justify your open minded belief. everything from the framed picture to ongoing involvement to wanting to make the second trip just to go without you is just so messed up and wrong. you're not treated right in this relationship, or loved either imo.

 

The good news is you have some control over just how badly you get played if you stop subjecting yourself to people whom you can accept on a philosophical level (and, as the evidence suggests, on a philosophical level alone). There are really good moral justifications for not getting personally and practically involved with them which you're smart enough to put into practice.

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I totally agree with this ^^^. I also think sometimes compassion, empathy and wanting to be non-judgmental can blind us to the fact that we're being abused or played - because we're more concerned for the welfare for the other person than we are for our own. Meanwhile, our guts may be screaming out loud, we suffer from stress-related complaints and nightmares and are deeply unhappy - but don't feel we're entitled to walk away and take care of ourselves.

 

Non-judgmental does NOT mean lacking in judgment. It means not judging people as 'good' or 'bad', but just acknowledging what they are. I get what RainyCoast is saying about people with schizophrenia - I love working with them, and they are the most interesting, rewarding bunch of people I know. That's non-judgmental. However, trying to have an intimate relationship with anyone on the schizoid spectrum and then wondering why there's no real connection... that's lacking in judgment.

 

I used to attend Alanon meetings, and was really struck by the topic to be discussed one evening - that tolerance can be a character defect if carried to extremes; in that context it was referring to the willingness of people to be lied to, impoverished and abused because they 'loved' their partners.

 

In your case, you are tolerating a woman who is in frequent contact with her ex, still has his photo on her wall and is planning to go over to the other side of the globe on her own to meet him. He is not someone from her past, but someone who is still very much in her present and who will likely try to throw a spanner in the works of your relationship... with her consent. Y'know, my ex husband - with whom I'd been in intermittent contact over the years - got back in touch after we'd been apart for 18 years, trying to rekindle the relationship. Did I go into an emotional tailspin, a Pandora's Box of emotions? No - I gave him very short shrift and told him to stop being so stupid, and that his current wife is the best thing that has ever happened to him. That's how it is when you've genuinely moved on from a relationship... and your girlfriend clearly hasn't.

 

I get that you don't want to be jealous or controlling - or be judged as being jealous or controlling - but when you don't impinge on someone's freedom and they act in ways which make you want to eat your heart out, then it really is time to bail - for your own sanity.

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Why would any of this change?

 

She knows what kind of man he is, it's why she dumped him. She sounds like a smart woman, she's not going to be running back into his arms.

 

- This may actually be true.

 

However, her staying in his house (even if he's not there) could make a boyfriend jelous - and it's understandable. Why go through the pain of jealousy?

 

Plus, SHE'S LEAVING HIM. She's talking about going away for months or a year probably.

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I don't think there's anything mortally wrong with what she's doing. It's a destination and a beach house. You both seem like grown adults (all three of you with your own properties). Why turn this into a child's fit? Obviously she makes decisions that are not acceptable to you. You don't need anyone's approval that this is right or wrong. Simply axe the relationship or keep dating her.

 

I wouldn't date someone like her but I also don't think she's a horrible person. She sounds a bit of a ditz but that's her prerogative and she's free to conduct her business and life as she pleases. For your peace of mind and simply because this is turning you into a less-than-attractive man, let her go and go book your own balmy beach houses elsewhere.

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i'm glad certain others have approached it without writing it off as simple codependency or something too. I mean I'm aware if you take a closer look at most of us either personally inclined or professionally avowed to social good you'll find textbook remnants of doormats and saviors only in more sophisticated form, but what you'll also find is self awareness and a relentless drive for sublimation of the same tendencies.

 

There is a distinct ethical component in all his concerns, in literally all his threads. This is often the case with intellectuals concerned with social good. It doesn't help much to say "you don't need anyone's approval" or "she's not a terrible person for it", neither of that is questionable to OP, or sufficient. The superego is brutal, not allowing for a self-protective move until it can remove every trace of selfishness, impatience and insensitivity for the fellow human. Whether he knows it or not, dave is a philosopher. The good thing about that is that by that same token, he's perfectly capable of getting off of the moral fence when he finds a good enough argument for it, even if it requires a professional. I hesitate to say "maybe you should explore this in therapy" for fear it would come off patronizing or imply he's got some terribly dysfunctional thing going on. I don't think he does, what he seems to have, is philosophical and intellectual pain that is allowing him to set himself up for experiences like this and i just think requires an intelligent conversationalist to address, even if it's not a therapist. I could swear he dumbs it down when he's posting to make it forum appropriate. i'm sure he can come up with a way to consolidate his beliefs and ethics with the need to protect himself practically and emotionally, but it's easier in discourse. it's hard to surprise yourself in your own head.

 

 

most of us have learned to wear our kevlar vests when we come on here anyway, but i do hope OP can hear beyond the mere "you're groveling/ insecure" layer of the responses.

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I believe you are right to feel this way. It's your intuition and your gut speaking.

 

One thing is to have an amicable-professional relationship with an ex, which is possible, however, this, going on two trips (after it was suggested you could join on one) is more than that.

 

It sounds like you are an open-minded, reasonable man. Have you discussed this openly with her? How would she feel if the roles were reversed?

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i'm glad certain others have approached it without writing it off as simple codependency or something too. I mean I'm aware if you take a closer look at most of us either personally inclined or professionally avowed to social good you'll find textbook remnants of doormats and saviors only in more sophisticated form, but what you'll also find is self awareness and a relentless drive for sublimation of the same tendencies.

 

There is a distinct ethical component in all his concerns, in literally all his threads. This is often the case with intellectuals concerned with social good. It doesn't help much to say "you don't need anyone's approval" or "she's not a terrible person for it", neither of that is questionable to OP, or sufficient. The superego is brutal, not allowing for a self-protective move until it can remove every trace of selfishness, impatience and insensitivity for the fellow human. Whether he knows it or not, dave is a philosopher. The good thing about that is that by that same token, he's perfectly capable of getting off of the moral fence when he finds a good enough argument for it, even if it requires a professional. I hesitate to say "maybe you should explore this in therapy" for fear it would come off patronizing or imply he's got some terribly dysfunctional thing going on. I don't think he does, what he seems to have, is philosophical and intellectual pain that is allowing him to set himself up for experiences like this and i just think requires an intelligent conversationalist to address, even if it's not a therapist. I could swear he dumbs it down when he's posting to make it forum appropriate. i'm sure he can come up with a way to consolidate his beliefs and ethics with the need to protect himself practically and emotionally, but it's easier in discourse. it's hard to surprise yourself in your own head.

 

 

most of us have learned to wear our kevlar vests when we come on here anyway, but i do hope OP can hear beyond the mere "you're groveling/ insecure" layer of the responses.

 

 

I'm fascinated by your reply. My mother was a very empathetic and caring person in a caring profession who taught me to be non-judgemental and accept people for who they are. The problem with empathy is that it can attract the wrong sort of people, like bees to a honeypot. I've always looked for the best in people, possibly giving time to people and relationships I shouldn't have. The saying 'treat other people how you would like to be treated yourself' is quite dangerous though, encouraging you to be nice to people that don't warrant it. A few years ago I was exposed to somebody whom I now believe to have been a malignant narcissist, and it has changed my perception of humanity. For years I walked around believing that everyone was like me, and they are not. I realised quite quickly for every good person there was also a bad one. And then there's people who are truly bad, who would destroy you if they could. In recent years I have shrunk my friend base down, and removed toxic people. I have developed an acute sense of spotting this type of behaviour, it's like a radar system. I believe that the ex of the woman I'm seeing to be toxic, and using triangulation techniques on me. People who haven't been exposed to this behaviour can not understand the damage that they can inflict, luckily I do. I will back away from it, it's not worth it.

 

In terms of therapy, over here you don't really do it to the extent the Americans do. The thought of it is interesting, but I do have some interesting friends I discuss things with. I don't think I'm co-dependant, but perhaps we all have issues of one sort or another. I'm sure I have insecurities, but I'm fairly confident in myself and my abilities. I am a work in progress in terms of my perception of humanity, and I have learned to protect myself practically and emotionally as best I can.

 

I like this site because the cross-section of viewpoints is interesting, you can post here when you're thinking 'is this what's really happening here, or am I imagining things?'. You get a useful back-up to your intuition.

 

In terms of my present situation, I will follow my intuition. Actions speak louder than words, and I will see what pans out with this woman. The problem with dating at my age is that people come with baggage (including myself), and it takes a while to figure out what exactly the baggage is. In this case, a long standing ex whom I didn't fully comprehend the significance of until a short while ago. I will not engage in his games, or hers for that matter.

 

I'm flattered that you think I'm a philosopher by the way, but I'm of the impression that you're more versed in the subject than I could ever be.

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In regard to wanting to be loving and without the bias that would make one write people off as non options

And that perpetually not working out in practice,

 

I know why that is, for me. I can't be succint but I'll go ham eggs and cheese trying to explain in case it's at all helpful. It's four in the night here and I have to be up early so I'll just go and write a novel because I like to sabotage myself like that.

 

Let's take the thing with the schizophreniacs. I have past personal experience, and like NBH I work with them now. I've been privy to the full gamut of the manifestations of the illness, and the true persons behind it. With familiarity came an unusually strong affection for them. Unlike the other poster though, I don't find working with them rewarding that often. It's usually quite frustrating for me. Everyone has their forte and well, schizophrenic people aren't mine. But I think I could go as far as to say I love them, I really want the best for them, I respect them, etc. Before bed, I often have visuals that I can't help but that are an extension of my disposition towards them. I picture myself standing next to them and a warm current of support flowing from my heart. Again, I don't conjure it up, it's the kind of thing your mind creates when you're thinking about people you really care about. So I must not be judgemental or insensitive but rather loving, right? Well, first thing in the morning when I'm working with them, it all goes to waste. I try, really hard, and they'll say they really appreciate it BUT "the helicopters/planes/government spies/ the police/ the tapped phones/ the cameras/ they were coughing to exchange coded messages about me/ they were breathing into the bottle neck" etc. I'm helpless. I can't even be mad I know they can't help it. But I've also come to accept it's not my failure. It is unnerving to me that I can't seem to "bring down into the embodied self" and make manifest the supportive benevolence of my higher self so to speak. Because apparently that's not how things work. It's entirely possible to be loving conceptually, and then when it gets down to a person relating to a person it's a messy ball game. Because the person, the constructed self is nothing but an elaborate set of defences that have been at work since birth. That self can never operate like that ego ideal effusive with love and understanding does- the latter exists in some psychological space where the recipients of its well wishes aren't retorting and obstructing the loving interaction with "oh but the helicopters" - or booking a solo flight to vietnam, or accusing you of unspeakable things Tourette's style.

 

Please, nobody pm to ask what I'm smoking, it's legit how I think. deal.

 

I've accepted there will always be a disparity between the indiscriminate good I feel I have the conceptual capacity for, and the portion of that that I am able to put to practical use successfully because it's how the cookie crumbles, not because I am inadequate.

I am thinking specifically about the thread where you mention the woman who would accuse you of things so disturbing you couldn't even verbalize them despite being obviously deeply unsettled by them. You continued to soak in interpretations and information offered by well meaning people very experienced in autism, all the while expressing how you wanted to be educated and understanding about the disorder. This was a prime example to me of you struggling with the simultaneous existence of your need to be understanding and accepting, and your need to get some of that benevolence reciprocated for once and realizing this "conceptually okay" person doesn't fit the bill in practice and it's not because you're judgemental that you need to move on.

 

I know that was long ago and that you do accept when something is unhealthy or unfair, and do recognise when it's no longer fair on you. But it seems to repeat itself often, this scenario of you meeting someone waving a highly probable red flag like the propensity to insult you and minimize it as autism, or a framed picture of a narcissistic ex and regular contact with him. You go "come on now dave, you're not seriously going to judge a person for that, everyone has something, give them a chance" when deep down you can probably anticipate just how uncomfortable it's going to make you feel, and how long you're going to act as if your discomfort is proof of you being narrow minded and will go away if you can just not be so judgemental/insensitive/etc.

 

 

Sometimes I play the percentages game. For example "it may be true that her friendship with her ex is and will always remain innocent, but I have observed and experienced enough to know it is more likely than not to be a problem, so I'm increasing my chances of a relationship working out by passing on her" etc.

 

Anyway, good call on the present situation and continue to weed out the lofty causes from the lost ones.

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I am sorry to hear that you have to go through this....you said she was a rock and that you are both falling in love. Life, however tends to throw obstacles our way.

Since she offered for you to go with her - go...I am sure you will than meet the ex and will have a better understanding of their friendship these days. After that trip, she may not want to go again without you.

Please don't worry in advance - get excited just as her and plan this trip together.

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