Who pays for drinks, coffee or dinner etc on a first date

[itsallgrand]

I just find it mind blowing how people can say with a straight face that a man picking up a bill by default shows knightly qualities such as bravery, nobility, care for the weak and vulnerable.

It's an irritating bit of sexism, for sure.

 

It doesn't matter if he pays, that's the point, give it up already defending this expectation couched as ' old fashioned charm'.

 

Any woman worth her salt isn't going to get turned away by a man taking turns or going Dutch. The whole point is to see if you like each other.

[figureitout23]

I just find it mind blowing how people can say with a straight face that a man picking up a bill by default shows knightly qualities such as bravery, nobility, care for the weak and vulnerable.

It's an irritating bit of sexism, for sure.

 

It doesn't matter if he pays, that's the point, give it up already defending this expectation couched as ' old fashioned charm'.

 

Any woman worth her salt isn't going to get turned away by a man taking turns or going Dutch. The whole point is to see if you like each other.

 

I hope you were being as tongue and cheek as I was about the mommy issues.

 

If not... and I say this with absolutely no disrespect you gotta get off the high horse girl.

 

What one person likes sexually, physically, emotionally, conversationally, as long as they aren’t committinng a crime is their business.

 

Women who insist on going Dutch do not bother me, they don’t phase me, I think some might be trying a bit too hard to be ‘that girl’ but again at the end of the day, I could really care less, why you care to this extent is much more telling than what a woman finds charming.

 

Again no disrespect.

 

When it comes to using terms such as sexism though, we have a president who proudly states he grabs women by the p****, I just really think who pays for soup and salad is the least of our problems as a society, which is why I dread this topic because much like political stances we feel how we feel and instead of accepting that, it becomes attacks which often pits woman against woman... an irony thats not lost on me

[j.man]

Everyone likes free food. That crosses gender lines. Certainly can't hold that against women.

 

I'd advise a daughter of mine to go Dutch first to demonstrate she's not assuming her time is any more valuable than his, and second to make a qualitative assessment on how he takes it when a woman kindly asserts her independence. IMO, much more telling than a token gesture still by and large no reflection of anything other than reflexive acculturation.

 

Everyone is free to date and judge as they please. though. Still, liking something is different from expecting it. I do judge any grown and capable man or woman who expects a stranger treat them to a free meal. To me, that's funny.

[katrina1980]

Everyone likes free food. That crosses gender lines. Certainly can't hold that against women.

 

I'd advise a daughter of mine to go Dutch first to demonstrate she's not assuming her time is any more valuable than his, and second to make a qualitative assessment on how he takes it when a woman kindly asserts her independence. IMO, much more telling than a token gesture still by and large no reflection of anything other than reflexive acculturation.

 

Everyone is free to date and judge as they please. though. Still, liking something is different from expecting it. I do judge any grown and capable man or woman who expects a stranger treat them to a free meal. To me, that's funny.

 

j.man I agree with you.

 

Especially re expecting it versus liking it, finding such gallantness sexy and attractive.

 

I think I said before I don't necessarily think a man should pay or is obligated to pay. Nor do I expect it.

 

It just feels nice when he does; for me it's a reflection of his interest in me, and if I'm attracted to him, that feels nice!

 

I can be a bit of a princess though too, LOL.

 

Just teasing.

[shellyf62]

I usually meet a guy for a coffee on our first meet, so it isnt an expensive date.

If we click & he asks me out again for a meal I will offer to pay my share when the bill arrives.

[milly007]

I've always suggested meeting over a coffee or quick drink for a first meet, and expect to pay my own way as well. It's a great inexpensive way to get to know someone.

 

I do find that men always offer to pick up the bill, but I always offer to pay my share.

 

I specifically avoid dinner on a first date because it's expensive and I dislike the idea of spending that extra money on a meal when it most likely won't go past the first date (a solid, genuine connection only comes around every so often, so...don't want anyone forking out cash over a dinner when we can determine if there's a spark or not over a quick drink). Plus, who am I kidding, if the date isn't a good time, who wants to sit through a whole meal. Heck no. And if the guy insists on paying, which they do, I don't want them wasting their money on an expensive meal when we could have opted for a cheaper date option for a first meet.

 

Do I appreciate when a man offers to cover the tab? Absolutely...and it's darn attractive. It's selfless, kind, and considerate; obviously all great qualities.

 

I remember meeting this one guy at a pub on our first meet. He ordered a meal and I only ordered a coffee. When the bill came, I put money down for my coffee and he proceeded to tell me that he'd cover the tab. He then told me that one thing he looks for when meeting a woman is if she offers to help with the bill. I kinda got the feeling that he began to wonder if some women were only looking for a free meal via OLD (and I can't remember if he actually did say this, but he may have).

 

Speaking of which, not that I'm just noticing this now, but man...dating must get super expensive for men, right? I mean, most guys I know offer to cover the tab when dating (even male friends offer when we meet up for a bite or drinks but I pay for my own).

[itsallgrand]

No disrespect taken, FIO. I'm comfortable with differences in opinions. I'm comfortable too with you thinking I'm on a high horse with this. I don't see it that way, and it's not about thinking anyone's better than the next.

 

I pound out on this because it IS a small place we have control over in our every day lives as individuals to show how our beliefs shake out and make those tiny incremental changes from the bottom up. It's easy to slide along, going on dates, letting men pay. Most men are still taught they are responsible for this, so there's no shortage of men who will take it as a given. I did it too when I was younger, found I didn't like that dynamic it starts things off on.

 

I won't harp on it, but I'm not ashamed to say I disagree with encouraging young men to go into dating expecting to pay, and if she pulls out her wallet it's a nice gesture. I think it's reasonable and healthy for a young man to know he has enough to offer a woman minus that, and young women to know what she has to offer is not reflected in how a man spends his money on her.

[Rose Mosse]

No disrespect taken, FIO. I'm comfortable with differences in opinions. I'm comfortable too with you thinking I'm on a high horse with this. I don't see it that way, and it's not about thinking anyone's better than the next.

 

I pound out on this because it IS a small place we have control over in our every day lives as individuals to show how our beliefs shake out and make those tiny incremental changes from the bottom up. It's easy to slide along, going on dates, letting men pay. Most men are still taught they are responsible for this, so there's no shortage of men who will take it as a given. I did it too when I was younger, found I didn't like that dynamic it starts things off on.

 

I won't harp on it, but I'm not ashamed to say I disagree with encouraging young men to go into dating expecting to pay, and if she pulls out her wallet it's a nice gesture. I think it's reasonable and healthy for a young man to know he has enough to offer a woman minus that, and young women to know what she has to offer is not reflected in how a man spends his money on her.

 

I think you just say what most men are feeling deep down and I agree with your candor. I've heard some ridiculous stories from men on dates while dating(of their terrible dates with other women!). I won't repeat those stories here but my jaw dropped and oh, I did laugh. Obviously at this point the vibe was comfortable and we were joking with each other and exchanging stories without too many details.

 

Smart men generally are one of two things or both: 1) savvy with their money and/or 2) cautious about who they take out(not frequent)

 

Where the lines get blurry are dating apps and casual dates or dating/seeing more than one person in a short span of time - a newer generation/style of dating.

 

How it all shakes out really is the prerogative of the two people on that date. I don't think there's any one way of doing things.... the only rule seems to be some consideration is appreciated from all sides.

[Cherylyn]

I expect women to pay for me on a first date.

 

j.man ~ Thanks for the chuckle!

[Cherylyn]

I think your last sentence is the key, and that it is very individual. I was just wondering because, as I mentioned, I haven't dated in a long time and I'm old fashioned. xx

 

Times have changed. Chivalry is nice and old-fashioned but with so many employed women, it's only fair to go Dutch due to consideration for the man and why not pay for one's own way?

 

Communication is important when money is a factor. Some men are on tight budgets and even if he asks her out, he'll offer to pick up the tab or assume she'll pay. If she assumes he'll pay without asking if she can contribute to her own meal and / or beverage, then this could break the date and that will be the end of that. For the man, he could put it nicely and say, "Let's go Dutch." She can either agree or won't want to go out with him again if this is an issue for her. Some women think the man is cheap if he won't foot the bill especially if he invited her. Communication is key from the beginning. Or, he can offer to pay the entire bill just to be generous and kind. However, this generosity could lead to habitual expectation that he will always pay for everything. If he's on a tight budget, a tightwad or cheapskate, then he should discuss an agreement so there is a clear understanding regarding money for dating expenses such as meals, beverages, snacks or whatever (such as tickets for entertainment and the like).

 

At first, when we were dating, my husband paid for many of my dinners and while it was very kind of him, I began to feel sorry for him even though he had a good job. I have a job and offered to either go Dutch or take turns paying the entire restaurant bill. Dating is more enjoyable when both the man and the lady are on the same page regarding money.

[catfeeder]

Whoever invites treats. Anything more complex than that is awkward and unnecessary.

[SherrySher]

I've always split the cost. I've always felt more comfortable with that.

 

I see first dates as a chance to form a friendship and see if we're compatible, that being said, we're on even ground therefore we both share the cost.

Although to be fair, I feel the same way about sharing costs even years into a relationship.

I don't ever feel one person should shoulder all the costs..it's not right nor is it fair.

 

It annoys me when woman assume they should be treated and men are the lowly slaves who should thank god she's out with him.

That's old news.

Men and woman should be treated equally and one is not better than the other or more deserving.

[superfan]

Ugh if I am ever dating again and a dude tries to pay for me on a first date, there will NOT be a second date.

 

I have no time or patience for dudes with "traditional" (read: outdated horrifically sexist values).

 

I make my own money and I pay my own way and I hate when people say "I'm traditional" when the translation for that is "I want to perpetuate stereotypical gender norms".

 

Nope.

[SherrySher]

A man who wants to court me romantically will pay and be happy to pay!

 

Nope, this is the wrong attitude and again is looking down on men.

 

If he's a good man, you'd better be damned happy to have found him and treat him just as good. That goes for sharing the cost and making him feel just as special!!

[SherrySher]

I'd advise a daughter of mine to go Dutch first to demonstrate she's not assuming her time is any more valuable than his, and second to make a qualitative assessment on how he takes it when a woman kindly asserts her independence. IMO, much more telling than a token gesture still by and large no reflection of anything other than reflexive acculturation.

 

Everyone is free to date and judge as they please. though. Still, liking something is different from expecting it. I do judge any grown and capable man or woman who expects a stranger treat them to a free meal. To me, that's funny.

 

THANK YOU!

 

You will bring up a strong woman who has a good head on her shoulders.

[katrina1980]

Nope, this is the wrong attitude and again is looking down on men.

 

If he's a good man, you'd better be damned happy to have found him and treat him just as good. That goes for sharing the cost and making him feel just as special!!

 

i was being a bit tongue n cheek with that comment Sherry, I really don't expect men to pay or that they should pay.

 

I just personally like it on the first few dates as, for me, it indicates his interest. And I like that "take charge" attitude, it kinda turns me on, maybe a yin and yang thing, who knows.

 

But, once we've been dating a few times, yes I absolutely will pay or offer to pay. Or reciprocate in other ways, by cooking him a great meal or getting tickets to a ball game, for example. :)

[katrina1980]

I've always split the cost. I've always felt more comfortable with that.

 

I see first dates as a chance to form a friendship and see if we're compatible, that being said, we're on even ground therefore we both share the cost.

 

 

Ah, this is where we differ Sherry.

 

I don't date to form a friendship, I date to determine if there is a physical, mental, sexual attraction.

 

And for me, a man paying on those first few dates is part of that, the courtship of dating if you will.

 

I don't even think it's old fashioned, not for me anyway, in short it just turns me on! Assuming I am attracted in the first place.

 

I don't really think there is a wrong or right, it's an individual thing.

 

I understand your attitude because your first order of business is developing a friendship. Which s great! If that works for you, then who am I to judge that?

 

Mine is not, the friendship comes in time in conjunction with our growing intimacy after physical, mental and emotional attraction is developed.

 

Again just me, what works for me in my dating experiences.

[j.man]

Whoever invites treats. Anything more complex than that is awkward and unnecessary.

This is pretty much "the man pays" lite. I mean it's great for the 10% of women who say it and actually mean it by doing their their share of approaching men and inviting them on a date, but definitely not as a generalized concept.

 

I don't sit there and wait for a friend to pull out money for my meal if they invite me out to lunch, so I'm not sure why it's any less awkward or any more necessary a stranger who agreed to go on a date to have that expectation. It actually seems especially arbitrary that someone be expected to stick their neck out, risk rejection, take the time to plan a date, only to be the one expected to exclusively pay for the privilege. If someone doesn't think either the person or the place is worth paying for a plate, then they're free to and should decline.

[katrina1980]

One thing I don't quite get is why the focus on dates meaning paying for your date's meal and/or the insinuation that everyone wants a free meal.

 

My boyfriend and I went bowling on our second date, on a Sunday afternoon and yes he paid. We had a couple of beers and that was it. No food.

 

And had a blast bowling!

 

There are so many things to do that don't involve food or treating another to a "free meal."

 

And on a personal level, I find it rather insulting to insinuate that if a woman accepts an invite from a man to have dinner (for example) and it makes her feel nice when he pays, she was looking to get a free meal.

 

That is not what it's about at all, at least not for me and other women I know.

[katrina1980]

I think you just say what most men are feeling deep down and I agree with your candor. I've heard some ridiculous stories from men on dates while dating(of their terrible dates with other women!). I won't repeat those stories here but my jaw dropped and oh, I did laugh. Obviously at this point the vibe was comfortable and we were joking with each other and exchanging stories without too many details.

 

Smart men generally are one of two things or both: 1) savvy with their money and/or 2) cautious about who they take out(not frequent)

 

Where the lines get blurry are dating apps and casual dates or dating/seeing more than one person in a short span of time - a newer generation/style of dating.

 

How it all shakes out really is the prerogative of the two people on that date. I don't think there's any one way of doing things.... the only rule seems to be some consideration is appreciated from all sides.

 

I actually know men, more so when I lived back east in New York, who feel insulted when a woman offers to pay.

 

They either think she's not interested (which is the case with me - I will pay when not interested) or she does not believe she deserves to be treated especially when they're the ones who invited her out, or I've had men tell me they feel she's making some sort of "statement" - I am independent, hear me roar, type of thing and they find it a turn off.

 

My brothers feel this way too.

 

On the other hand, I also know men who won't date a woman again unless she offers and pays for the second date, assuming he paid for the first.

 

I don't know, it just all seems so extreme.

 

A man invites me out on a date, why not let him treat me if he wants? Which most if not all my dates do. I'll get it next time or reciprocate in some other way.

 

I just don't get the big hoopla about it.

[Batya33]

I never wanted a "free meal" - I used to love eating socially, not so much anymore - and I had to be careful about what I ordered (messiness/cost), etc. I had more than one guy tell me that he wanted to go to a fancy restaurant because he liked going to those places and he wasn't comfortable going alone or not on a date. His choice. I have heard of women deliberately suggesting expensive restaurants which to me is tacky -never did that -and one of my former friends went on a first meet for drinks - they went to a fancy restaurant with nice views. For drinks. She said she kept commenting on the menu because she was vegetarian and they had some vegetarian options. She thought it was rude he didn't take the hint and offer to order something. I thought she was being tacky.

 

On first meets I did my best to keep it low level/casual and yes -if he was waiting in line to buy coffee I did expect him to offer to treat for my $2 coffee (I'm a plain coffee gal) - and found it off putting if he didn't. I've met women through my mom's groups and offered to treat. And yes if I was in line first I'd offer (or sometimes if he was late I already had my coffee).

 

I almost always met men who were financially stable. One time a guy who was underemployed traveled by commuter train to meet me (about an hour or so). So I offered to treat for lunch before we ordered. I did not order an appetizer but he did -and an entree. In his shoes I would not have done so -I would have matched what the treating person was ordering if at all possible.

[goddess]

Oh boy this topic has been done to death and I promise you not as big of a deal as this board makes it.

 

I like when a man pays, like Kat said, I find it sexy, I think it’s a gentlemanly quality. I think men who put enormous amounts of thought about who pays for nachos has mommy issues and should be avoided but that’s my personal stance. We all have one and we all follow it with little to no push or pull in real life.

 

Most women I know bring cash to pay for themselves.

 

Most men I’ve encountered pay without hesitation.

 

Real life expieriences.

 

Of all the first dates I had 2 went Dutch - one I ended up dating for a while the other I had absolutely

no interest in and the feeling was mutual.

 

I promise it’s only a big deal if you make it one.

 

It was not my intention to make a big deal of it. I simply wanted to get a general idea of what is considered polite and/or proper these days. Thank you for your input much appreciated.

[goddess]

I actually know men, more so when I lived back east in New York, who feel insulted when a woman offers to pay.

 

They either think she's not interested (which is the case with me - I will pay when not interested) or she does not believe she deserves to be treated especially when they're the ones who invited her out, or I've had men tell me they feel she's making some sort of "statement" - I am independent, hear me roar, type of thing and they find it a turn off.

 

My brothers feel this way too.

 

On the other hand, I also know men who won't date a woman again unless she offers and pays for the second date, assuming he paid for the first.

 

I don't know, it just all seems so extreme.

 

A man invites me out on a date, why not let him treat me if he wants? Which most if not all my dates do. I'll get it next time or reciprocate in some other way.

 

I just don't get the big hoopla about it.

 

I'm from New York also. Perhaps that's why I wanted to get feedback. It just struck me as a little off that my son does dutch, that's all. As i mentioned at the beginning, I haven't dated in 31 years. I do remember that, when I did date, guys always paid but I certainly always offered, without hesitation. I may be biased because I dated men who were well off financially due to where we all worked (Wall Street area) and that was where I met them. Maybe I was a bit of a princess - LOL! All joking aside, I am not conceited nor narcissistic. I was just very outgoing. Thanks for your message, kat.

[goddess]

Again, thank you all for your input. Your comments were interesting and informative.

[j.man]

I'd just as well tell a daughter of mine, or any woman in my life asking advice, to run clear from any man intimidated or insecure over the simple fact she paid for her own meal. It's utter nonsense it's assumed it means she's not interested any more than a woman letting you pay means she is interested. Now I happen to know women who won't let a man pay if she's not interested in a second date, but every man and his father has probably treated more than a couple women only for nothing to come of it-- not at all to suggest it should entitle him to anything.

 

I will say back when I was offering to pay (out of simply having been raised that way rather than feeling she deserves a plate for granting me the privilege of her company), I did have one woman pitch a fit straight away over the fact she has a job and her own money. Not in any way to paint that as any sort of norm, but those women do happen to exist, and of course reacting that way is probably going to put even the most well-intentioned guy off. I've twice had my offer politely countered, and it was hardly a hoopla. In fact, the "your time is just as valuable as mine" line isn't mine. It's from one of the women. Being honest, while that one didn't end up my wife, it was probably one of the biggest mental fist pumps I've had during a date. The other woman declined my offer and simply said, "I enjoyed the date hopefully as much as you enjoyed it."

 

So yeah, there are kind but no-BS ways to tell a guy you're paying not because you don't like him (not that I think you should feel the need to qualify it). Still, if a guy feels like her offering to pay is a rejection... it's because it probably is. If a lady's sitting stone faced the entire time and intermittently checking her phone, I wouldn't bank on paying for the date saving the day. We love to say, "If a guy likes you, you'll know." Well, so will women. If you're not getting signals she's interested but for her letting you put your card down on her behalf, take the hint, guy.

 

I'm sorry, but on the note of liking vs. expecting, just as it's one thing to like treating someone, it's another to feel insulted or slighted if a woman would rather cover her own meal. While I'm not and pretty much have never been shy about the fact I think going Dutch is best at the very least as the expectation (if not the preferred philosophy), assuming she wasn't simply being exaggerative, I don't necessarily agree with Superfan that men who offer are inherently doing so as an act of sexism. I think there are people who are relatively well off and who would cover a meal for a date they really enjoyed just as much as they'd cover a lunch bill with a friend they invited to catch up with. But how a man reacts to a woman paying her own way I do think is where superfan's point comes through in shining colors. History-- hell, even this generation is rife with dudes who would sooner let their families hit financial rock bottom than "let" the wife play breadwinner while he recovers from an injury, having to change industries, etc. Obviously that's an extreme, but there are a thousand degrees in between which speak to the "old fashioned" people, namely certain women, often cite without truly meaning.

 

If you catch a dude whose pride or masculinity can't handle you dropping cash on a salad, I wouldn't assume that ceiling is getting any higher. Does that mean he's definitely a regular Archie Bunker? No. But I see very little benefit in assuming otherwise when there are perfectly conventionally masculine guys out there who wouldn't bat an eye.

 

Aaaaaand this is not how I should have spent my lunch break.