Very Angry at Fiance for making plans with a woman colleague !!

[Hollyj]

Lora, you sound addicted to this man, and not in a good way. Why do you feel you need him so badly?

 

You're an intelligent, educated woman. Logically you know he will continue these behaviors and only hide it better from you. He wanted to meet this nurse and he was trying to hide it from you. That alone should be enough nevermind the name calling and the fact that he's done this before.

 

You are walking into a situation where I am sure it will end with you getting divorced and him running off with some other woman.

Your head is telling you to leave and yet your heart is telling you he might be okay.

 

But the heart is going to make a fool out of you.

 

You said so yourself, you are a nice looking woman, you're well educated, you don't need him.

 

I think you feel an unhealthy addiction to him more than anything else. It sounds toxic.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

 

If it was arguing about money or wedding plans or living arrangements,etc, those things are fixable.

But a man playing around with other women, hiding things from you, then blaming you and name calling....it's not fixable.

On some level you know this.

. She will learn the hard way.

[greendots]

Loralora, this isn't about him. This is about YOU being respected and valued as a person. That what you say and how you feel actually matters. That your opinion is important. Don't you agree?

[Loralora]

I'm not saying I will not leave him no matter what.

 

He called me a psycho because I told him if you're tired of our engagement and want somebody else than say so don't do things behind my back.

 

I will leave him. I just don't know if it will be this time around.

 

I'll see how today goes. And what he says today.

 

Maybe it will be this time around. I don't know.

[chitown9]

Why didn't you go with him to this dinner? chi

[Loralora]

Why didn't you go with him to this dinner? chi

 

It was only for the staff. Limited number of seats. I don't work at the same place he does.

[Loralora]

He told me if he was a cheater he could cheat and I could never find out. He said I needed to have more trust in him because if he wanted to he can have plenty of opportunities to cheat and I would never find out.

[SherrySher]

Omg...how is that supposed to make anything better? There's something wrong with this guy.

[SherrySher]

You'd think a decent man would be telling you to not worry and that he loves you too much to cheat on you,etc.

 

This guy has a huge ego and is a jerk. I still don't know why you put up with it.

[Wiseman2]

That's a strange phrase for a physician to use since it is so antiquated and obviously not in the DSM-5. What kind of physician is he? It's more along a the lines of a random attack on your intelligence and mental capacity. Clearly it was an extreme character assignation to shut you down. That would be it for me but to each their own.

 

Do not discuss "the future" and do not make more empty threats. This completely weakens your position. Instead, tell him you won't stand for verbal abuse. That was by far much worse than his shady flirty phone behavior.

 

Do not act jealous or tell him who he can/can't communicate with. This time employ your self respect and dignity rather than trying to defend your mental status or play cat-and-mouse with his phone activity. If he wants to cheat he can do that without texts and in any setting with anyone. "This time will be the last time" is without a doubt the weakest possible standpoint to have.

He just called me and apologised for calling me a hebephrenic schizophren. So what else should I say tomorrow?

[bluecastle]

I hate to say it, Lora, but the more you write the sadder this all gets.

 

I'll say it again, with the hopes that something seeps in: the issue here is not about cheating, potential cheating, flirting with cheating, flirting with nurses, or even his shady ways of handling all that. It's that your dynamic, at least right now, seems completely toxic. It's a dynamic in which you are both on edge and at odds with each other.

 

It's combative, adversarial, spiteful, mistrustful, mean, ego driven, resentful—on both sides.

 

In nine pages here I have not gotten even a crumb to let me believe you even like this man, as a human, let alone love him. And, as everyone else has said, from what you've written it's very hard to see where and how he likes, loves you, or respects your humanity. I mean, his response to all this is to let you know that he could easily cheat, without you knowing it, thus keeping you on edge? Just as your response to us is to let us know men are into you, that you could leave him in a heartbeat, using as a proxies to keep him on edge?

 

That's not warmth, not the glue for relationship or marriage. That's a sword fight between two headstrong people who, deep down, feel weakened by the other.

 

Some relationships are purely toxic, some go through toxic phases. The only way out of toxicity is for both people to see the poison, acknowledge it, come to a mutual acceptance of what it is, and commit to eradicating it before it continues to spread. Maturity, self-awareness, shared goals, shared hopes, and mutual respect is needed for that. So is genuine love.

 

And this is what concerns me—that neither of you have the humility required to see it.

 

You see surface tensions, but not what's undergirding them, the deeper churn, the poison. More concerning: I fear that the way you each handle the surface tensions—through combat, through manipulation—is what generates the "heat" of the relationship that allows you both, on some core level, to feel it's worth it, or at least to be addicted to the drama. Warfare being mistaken for passion, drama for depth.

 

The well gets more poisoned by your attempts to dilute it, because on some level you both worry that without the poison there is nothing.

 

For you, everything will be better, or at least manageable, or at least worth a try, if he reigns it in with the nurses, or if (cringe) you can scare him enough to reign it in. For him, everything will be better if you just chill, stop being so jealous, stop overreacting about behavior he sees as totally normal, totally okay.

 

As long as that dynamic holds, you'll stay in this space, at odds, poison spreading.

 

In all your time together, in the moments when this stuff has come up, has he ever acknowledged—with humility, with regret—that his seeking attention from other women is a problem? That it's something he would like to curb and change, for himself as well as for you? I'm not just talking about him paying lip service to not wanting to hurt your feelings during heated moments. I'm talking him explaining, during softer moments, if such moments exist, that he would like to be a better person than he is.

 

Because until that happens I promise you this will be a lost cause.

 

And, frankly, I don't think he wants to be a better person than he is, not right now, and I say that as someone who has been in a version of his shoes, and who has been in relationships that allow me to cling to my lesser self rather than inspiring me to grow into my highest self. I think, on a deep subconscious level, he wants to be with someone who will reward this behavior—by putting up with it, by not making him think too much about what's going on under the hood.

 

Why?

 

Because what's going on under the hood is a massive storm of insecurity that he does not have the stones to face. Easier to numb that insecurity by cultivating a "harmless" crush that makes him feel powerful, easier to numb it by feeling the power of riling up your girlfriend (i.e. you) by mentioning the crush. Those are power moves fueled by him feeling weak, just like your policing is a power move fueled by you feeling weak.

 

Which leads me to the other side of the coin: you.

 

What kind of person do you want to be? A bitter, nervous policewoman operating under the label of "wife" to a husband who thinks your crazy? Because that's the path you're on right now.

 

I know that Seraphim's approach resonated with you, as it did with me. But I think you've misinterpreted it a bit. For you, it's reaching for the sharpest sword. But really it's about putting away the weapons, and just asserting your own dignity. It needs to come from a place of calm, of self-worth. It's turning the volume down, and saying the party only continues like this, not with the speakers cranking.

[Hollyj]

He told me if he was a cheater he could cheat and I could never find out. He said I needed to have more trust in him because if he wanted to he can have plenty of opportunities to cheat and I would never find out.

That is terrible. What an ego. He is a complete azz!

 

You know how to pick the jerks! He clearly does not think what he has done is wrong: lying, deleting messages, name calling, hiding things, disrespect. Instead of reassuring you, he tells you that nonsense. I guarantee that it will happen again.

 

You will be a fool for staying.

[Loralora]

So we met today.

 

The first thing he did was say hi and grabed my hand. And started walking like he always does with me. I felt bad to pull my hand from his because he had a tight grip. I didn't want to make a scene so I just kept walking uncomfortably. (He knew I felt uncomfortable).

 

Once we sat down he asked about how my day was and started acting normal like nothing has happend.

 

I started talking and told him why he won't admit he was wrong. He said he was wrong for asking her what time the dinnerparty starts but not for anything else because he said she then asked him to meet and go together and he didn't know she was going to do that. He said he just wanted to know the time and admitted that he shouldn't have asked her but someone else.

 

He said that I had made it a bigger deal than it was.

 

He apologised for calling me a name and said he won't do it again.

He said I wasn't mad that you were mad about the woman but that he was mad that once he called me to talk things through the next day, I acted very badly and ruend the day and I was being very not understanding.

 

I said how many times do I have to tell you for you to not do it again.

I said the next time I won't talk I'll act because words obviously aren't having an impact. He said there won't be a next time and started talking about something that had happened at work today acting all normal.

 

I met him before work so we only stayed 45minutes and said bye like nothing has happend. Now I am at work in my nightshift.

[Seraphim]

You just got shystered.

[Hollyj]

So we met today.

 

The first thing he did was say hi and grabed my hand. And started walking like he always does with me. I felt bad to pull my hand from his because he had a tight grip. I didn't want to make a scene so I just kept walking uncomfortably. (He knew I felt uncomfortable).

 

Once we sat down he asked about how my day was and started acting normal like nothing has happend.

 

I started talking and told him why he won't admit he was wrong. He said he was wrong for asking her what time the dinnerparty starts but not for anything else because he said she then asked him to meet and go together and he didn't know she was going to do that. He said he just wanted to know the time and admitted that he shouldn't have asked her but someone else.

 

He said that I had made it a bigger deal than it was.

 

He apologised for calling me a name and said he won't do it again.

He said I wasn't mad that you were mad about the woman but that he was mad that once he called me to talk things through the next day, I acted very badly and ruend the day and I was being very not understanding.

 

I said how many times do I have to tell you for you to not do it again.

I said the next time I won't talk I'll act because words obviously aren't having an impact. He said there won't be a next time and started talking about something that had happened at work today acting all normal.

 

I met him before work so we only stayed 45minutes and said bye like nothing has happend. Now I am at work in my nightshift.

 

YUP! It boils down to being your fault. I knew it. It will happen again!

[Hollyj]

Lora, Wake up!

[bluecastle]

Lora, I'm going to have bow out of this one soon. I'm not saying I'm an oracle or anything—far, far from it. But are you listening?

 

I'm trying to get you to see what you're angry about, so, you know, you can actually tell him what can't happen again, or else.

 

He's dodging, deflecting, spitting hairs. And why? Because you're allowing him to, because you're doing the same thing. You're focusing on this irrelevant minutiae—a meaningless text message exchange, a shady deletion—and going round for round about who is right, wrong, how right, how wrong.

 

I mean, answer me honestly: Did any of that soothe anything for you?

 

This, if I may, is where you are, right now, in your relationship. You are dating, and engaged to be married, to a man who seeks validation from women in a way that makes you uncomfortable. Why he does this I can't say, but per my last post it is a shallow and hurtful manner of dealing with insecurity.

 

Have you said anything along these lines to him? When talking about this does any of that get broached? Because, I'm sorry, that is what is making you jittery, leading to doubts, leading to anger, leading to jealousy, leading to the sort of emotional reactions that, well, he flings back at you as being "a bigger deal than it was."

 

Why?

 

Because in his mind that's the truth, and you are allowing him to hold onto that truth, to live it, and to blame you for it.

 

Personal story, from a man hardwired to seek attention and validation in the general sense, who makes a living being praised by strangers, and who has gotten in relationship trouble for it when it comes to women, who has done the work to wrangle it in because it is not the bs version of a man I want to be...

 

Years ago, when I was 31, I was dating an incredible woman. Totally in love, totally loyal. Respected every millimeter of her inside and out, and she knew this. Still, about 8 months in a lot happened to me professionally that stressed me out. I was (subconsciously) scared to tell her what was going on because I didn't want to seem weak, without my swagger, whatever.

 

So what did I do? In a very short stretch (two weeks, say) I made some plans with women—drinks here, etc. One was a woman I'd had casual sex with, all were women I knew found me attractive. I was not seeking affairs. What I was doing (and I half knew this) was looking for a little hit of shallow attention/validation to boost my ego, polish my shine, because I didn't have the deep strength to be vulnerable—with myself and, by extension, with my gf.

 

Anyhow, this being unlike me, my gf noticed, was not stoked. She's about the coolest human on the planet, full of genuine confidence, a calm, fierce protector of her self-worth. Takes no bs, stirs no drama, was not going to stoop to whatever level I'd slipped down to. Calmly, she says to me, "So, what's up with BC making all the plans with women?" Her tone alone just called me out on being a fool, on being "that dude," and let me know she had no interest in being a relationship with "that dude."

 

I did not dodge, did not deflect. We did not get into a for tat about the bs. I apologized, thanked her for calling me out. "So, what's behind that?" she asked, and we had a talk. She understood where it came from, a little glitch in my humanity, and, for me, understanding that it hurt her inspired me to solder that wiring, fix the glitch. It wasn't who I wanted to be anyhow. And nothing like that ever happened again.

 

I share this with the dimmest of hopes that you'll open your own eyes a little wider, so maybe you can see what's going on here. It is not that it can't be fixed, or at least worked with. But y'all gotta do the work and be on the same page with what the work is. Right now you are clearly not.

[Loralora]

Why he does this I can't say, but per my last post it is a shallow and hurtful manner of dealing with insecurity.

 

Personal story, from a man hardwired to seek attention and validation in the general sense, who makes a living being praised by strangers, and who has gotten in relationship trouble for it when it comes to women, who has done the work to wrangle it in because it is not the bs version of a man I want to be...

.... I apologized, thanked her for calling me out. "So, what's behind that?" she asked, and we had a talk. She understood where it came from, a little glitch in my humanity, and, for me, understanding that it hurt her inspired me to solder that wiring, fix the glitch. It wasn't who I wanted to be anyhow. And nothing like that ever happened again.

 

I share this with the dimmest of hopes that you'll open your own eyes a little wider, so maybe you can see what's going on here. It is not that it can't be fixed, or at least worked with. But y'all gotta do the work and be on the same page with what the work is. Right now you are clearly not.

 

Blucastle thank you for this post. I did mention his attention seeking ways in the text yesterday but not today.

 

I am still not done talking about this and still not over it, and the next time I see him probably tomorrow I WILL mention this insecurity issue to him and his validation seeking ways.

Because you are right that is where the core of the problem is

 

Why can't my validation be enough for him, if this is the case?

 

I will mention this tomorrow, thank you for pointing it out!

 

I can't understand where his low self esteem comes from though. He's a sucessful doctor and an all around complete man becoming a surgeon.

[Hollyj]

Lora, I'm going to have bow out of this one soon. I'm not saying I'm an oracle or anything—far, far from it. But are you listening?

 

I'm trying to get you to see what you're angry about, so, you know, you can actually tell him what can't happen again, or else.

 

He's dodging, deflecting, spitting hairs. And why? Because you're allowing him to, because you're doing the same thing. You're focusing on this irrelevant minutiae—a meaningless text message exchange, a shady deletion—and going round for round about who is right, wrong, how right, how wrong.

 

I mean, answer me honestly: Did any of that soothe anything for you?

 

This, if I may, is where you are, right now, in your relationship. You are dating, and engaged to be married, to a man who seeks validation from women in a way that makes you uncomfortable. Why he does this I can't say, but per my last post it is a shallow and hurtful manner of dealing with insecurity.

 

Have you said anything along these lines to him? When talking about this does any of that get broached? Because, I'm sorry, that is what is making you jittery, leading to doubts, leading to anger, leading to jealousy, leading to the sort of emotional reactions that, well, he flings back at you as being "a bigger deal than it was."

 

Why?

 

Because in his mind that's the truth, and you are allowing him to hold onto that truth, to live it, and to blame you for it.

 

Personal story, from a man hardwired to seek attention and validation in the general sense, who makes a living being praised by strangers, and who has gotten in relationship trouble for it when it comes to women, who has done the work to wrangle it in because it is not the bs version of a man I want to be...

 

Years ago, when I was 31, I was dating an incredible woman. Totally in love, totally loyal. Respected every millimeter of her inside and out, and she knew this. Still, about 8 months in a lot happened to me professionally that stressed me out. I was (subconsciously) scared to tell her what was going on because I didn't want to seem weak, without my swagger, whatever.

 

So what did I do? In a very short stretch (two weeks, say) I made some plans with women—drinks here, etc. One was a woman I'd had casual sex with, all were women I knew found me attractive. I was not seeking affairs. What I was doing (and I half knew this) was looking for a little hit of shallow attention/validation to boost my ego, polish my shine, because I didn't have the deep strength to be vulnerable—with myself and, by extension, with my gf.

 

Anyhow, this being unlike me, my gf noticed, was not stoked. She's about the coolest human on the planet, full of genuine confidence, a calm, fierce protector of her self-worth. Takes no bs, stirs no drama, was not going to stoop to whatever level I'd slipped down to. Calmly, she says to me, "So, what's up with BC making all the plans with women?" Her tone alone just called me out on being a fool, on being "that dude," and let me know she had no interest in being a relationship with "that dude."

 

I did not dodge, did not deflect. We did not get into a for tat about the bs. I apologized, thanked her for calling me out. "So, what's behind that?" she asked, and we had a talk. She understood where it came from, a little glitch in my humanity, and, for me, understanding that it hurt her inspired me to solder that wiring, fix the glitch. It wasn't who I wanted to be anyhow. And nothing like that ever happened again.

 

I share this with the dimmest of hopes that you'll open your own eyes a little wider, so maybe you can see what's going on here. It is not that it can't be fixed, or at least worked with. But y'all gotta do the work and be on the same page with what the work is. Right now you are clearly not.

 

It is a pattern with this guy. I also think that the dynamics are different. He does not respect her.

 

Some people enjoy the attention of others and it has nothing to do with self esteem. This is who he is.

[Hollyj]

Blucastle thank you for this post. I did mention his attention seeking ways in the text yesterday but not today.

 

I am still not done talking about this and still not over it, and the next time I see him probably tomorrow I WILL mention this insecurity issue to him and his validation seeking ways.

Because you are right that is where the core of the problem is

 

Why can't my validation be enough for him, if this is the case?

 

I will mention this tomorrow, thank you for pointing it out!

 

I can't understand where his low self esteem comes from though. He's a sucessful doctor and an all around complete man becoming a surgeon.

 

It does not matter what you do. This is on him.

[Wiseman2]

Because he doesn't have low self esteem. He simply enjoys all the attention. He's having fun flirting etc. however that crosses boundaries for you in a committed relationship. Unfortunately he does not respect you. That is the real issue, not some deep seeded insecurity etc. on his part. Sadly if you don't understand him or yourself, you'll have a hard time feeling good about this or resolving this or any other issues. Particularly with his marked disrespect for you.

I can't understand where his low self esteem comes from though. He's a sucessful doctor and an all around complete man becoming a surgeon.

[Hollyj]

Because he doesn't have low self esteem. He simply enjoys all the attention. He's having fun flirting etc. however that crosses boundaries for you in a committed relationship. Unfortunately he does not respect you. That is the real issue, not some deep seeded insecurity etc. on his part. Sadly if you don't understand him or yourself, you'll have a hard time feeling good about this or resolving this or any other issues. Particularly with his marked disrespect for you.

 

It is easier for her to see this as a self esteem problem, other than his character. Then she can excuse it away and stay with him.

[Loralora]

Because he doesn't have low self esteem. He simply enjoys all the attention. He's having fun flirting etc. however that crosses boundaries for you in a committed relationship. Unfortunately he does not respect you. That is the real issue, not some deep seeded insecurity etc. on his part. Sadly if you don't understand him or yourself, you'll have a hard time feeling good about this or resolving this or any other issues. Particularly with his marked disrespect for you.

 

 

I will address both issues. The low self esteem one and the attention seeking and see how he reacts to both and what he says.

 

He's not getting off that easy this time.

 

I told him you don't show respect for our engagement.

Now tomorrow I will address his respect towards me.

 

Bottom line if I don't see real live evidence of change I will not stay.

 

Thank you for all of your comments, you did put me on the right track.

[bluecastle]

Why can't my validation be enough for him, if this is the case? I can't understand where his low self esteem comes from though. He's a sucessful doctor and an all around complete man becoming a surgeon.

 

So, as long as you ask these questions, as Holly said, the more you'll keep spinning. And hurting.

 

This is not about you, but him, his character, his values. And the hard part is that it's really only going to change if (a) he wants to change it and (b) if he respects you enough to change.

 

Honestly? I'd wager that his success as a doctor, that drive, is connected to the same thing. I'm successful and driven, too. A hunger for validation and attention can be a great motivator.

 

It can also be destructive, disrespectful. And, as Holly said, it may not be deeply connected to some hole in his self-esteem, but simply how, at least right now, he wants to live.

 

Like, I have nothing morally against women who fill their Instagram page soley with photos of their butts in bikinis—if that's how they want to live, cool. But I'm not going to date or marry them, because I don't want to date someone who spends hours a day getting off on strangers posting peach emojis under photos of her butt. It sounds boring—basic, as the kids say. It sounds like it has the potential to make me edgy. It speaks to a value system that doesn't align with my own.

 

So you don't need to bring this up from a psychological angle, as if you know things about his self-esteem that he doesn't. It's simply that you don't want to marry someone who needs this sort of thing in his life. Different values.

 

And, frankly, I'm not sure your values align. I'm not even sure this dude is a decent dude. I think he's lacking the empathetic gene that allows him to understand how his actions can impact another's feelings. He wants you to ignore this, to not feel what you feel, because your feelings on this annoy him. Hence he deletes stuff that might trigger feelings and annoyance. He's trying to get "in front" of it, in a way that is even more disrespectful, likely, than whatever was in those deleted texts. Hence he tries to minimize your feelings when you bring it up, which of course only inflames those very feelings.

 

He wants you to instead focus on his good qualities, on what he sees as his good qualities, as you alluded to in another post. That he's successful, handsome, does x and y, whatever. He wants that stuff to give him a hall pass for this stuff.

 

And, hey, maybe there's a woman out there who is genuinely cool with that, just as there are women out there who are genuinely cool with open relationships, non-monogamous relationships, with partnering with dudes who only post photos of their abs on Instagram so strange pixilated women can respond with the fire emoji.

 

But that woman is not you, and that's the line you need to start seeing clearly, in yourself, so you can handle this however it goes.

[Loralora]

Thanks

 

.....so you can handle this however it goes.

yes this is exactly what I will do !

[Hollyj]

"So you don't need to bring this up from a psychological angle, as if you know things about his self-esteem that he doesn't. It's simply that you don't want to marry someone who needs this sort of thing in his life. Different values.

 

And, frankly, I'm not sure your values align. I'm not even sure this dude is a decent dude. I think he's lacking the empathetic gene that allows him to understand how his actions can impact another's feelings. He wants you to ignore this, to not feel what you feel, because your feelings on this annoy him. Hence he deletes stuff that might trigger feelings and annoyance. He's trying to get "in front" of it, in a way that is even more disrespectful, likely, than whatever was in those deleted texts. Hence he tries to minimize your feelings when you bring it up, which of course only inflames those very feelings.

 

He wants you to instead focus on his good qualities, on what he sees as his good qualities, as you alluded to in another post. That he's successful, handsome, does x and y, whatever. He wants that stuff to give him a hall pass for this stuff.

 

And, hey, maybe there's a woman out there who is genuinely cool with that, just as there are women out there who are genuinely cool with open relationships, non-monogamous relationships, with partnering with dudes who only post photos of their abs on Instagram so strange pixilated women can respond with the fire emoji.

 

But that woman is not you, and that's the line you need to start seeing clearly, in yourself, so you can handle this however it goes."

Spot on!

 

I had to laugh when you mentioned the booty pics with the peach emojis. Oh, goodness.