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Women can take a lot: The biggest realization that helped me to stop being a nice guy


CountVronsky
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How dare you ..seriously !!!!!!!

 

You have no clue about the world at all ....just this ridiculous bubble you are in were we all want a man like that Grey bloke and think that content is actually s and m ..now this crap ......

 

Women are made for pain because of childbirth ...do you get this sh1t out of a Christmas cracker

 

I reckon this bloke is here just to troll us !

 

So, back at this...

 

Christian Grey was attractive because of his looks and his money. Making women work for his affection, as you say, made him a jerk. Women were glad - at least the women I know - when she walked out.

 

The D/s man whom I know is fastidious in his communication with women. He would never put her in emotional jeopardy. To the contrary, he respects his partners with honesty and strict adherence to their terms. That may mean he alters his terms, but he will never challenge a woman's boundaries. What engages him is the meticulous skill and mental energy necessary to develop the physical relationship within her comfort zone and slightly beyond it, in tiny increments. Its a control dynamic, yes - about self control, sensitivity, and skill, about being responsible for someone else.

 

Individuals vary widely. Men have wished they could save me, and men have been glad I don't need saving. There really is no one way it is. And trust me, the idea that childbirth makes a woman tolerant of and desirous of pain is just wrong.

 

Drop the cloak of being male, and try to think as a human. Its scary- finding out how valuable you might be just because you are you.

 

That is where the beauty is.

 

No woman wants a Christian Grey! The reason those books sold so well was mainly because it wasn't just based on bdsm the storyline was about a woman changing a disturbed man with a troubled past,set in his ways, which in real life doesn't happen! It was an escape from reality those books. I liked them but that doesn't mean I want to be hanging from a bed frame tied up by my toes. Nor do I want a controlling man like Christian Grey. It was just an escape into fantasy land.

 

If your trying to take tips from Christian Grey so you aren't the hero and like to see pain then I suggest you find the root to your reasoning.

 

Are you bitter about being nice and girls taking advantage of you?

 

Hi pips.

 

I can't say where the OP's head is, but I was raised Catholic and was required to attend weekly bible classes.

 

A woman suffering pain in childbirth comes from the Book of Genesis (3:16) -- God making women's pain in childbirth so severe -- God said "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth," "with painful labor you will give birth to your children; yet your desire shall be for your husband....."

 

Not sure if it's still this way, but when a couple marries in the Catholic Church, the priest says to the women "you promise to love, honor and OBEY your husband."

 

Women were taught to be submissive, subservient to their husbands. This is the type of marriage my own parents had and the environment I was raised in.

 

As an adult, I have rejected all this, and consider myself an agnostic, but Im thinking perhaps that is where the OP is getting this stuff???

 

Also, in the United States, there is currently a society of men borne of the Catholic Church, called the "Promise Keepers."

 

I don't know much about it but in doing a quick Google search, the National Organization for Women (NOW), an American feminist organization, alleges they encourage inequality within marriage and teach a doctrine of male superiority. Which I sort of knew which is why I mentioned it. The movement is very alive and growing.

 

Of course BDSM is a whole different thing.

 

Again, can't say if this where the OP's ideas and beliefs are coming from, but it's possible.

 

Apologies for bringing religion into this but thought it was worth noting.

 

I'm not religious but I do come from a conservative immigrant family from a country where patriarchy exists. I personally don't believe my parents' marriage should be the norm at all. However, I do think the dynamics between men and women hasn't really changed. A lot of is biological wiring which has evolved over millennia.

 

Women still want a strong, reliable man who is not needy and who can take care of her and can handle the challenges and difficulties of life. The problem is, men such as these are high in demand from other women and so cheating happens. In the last 20 years or so starting with the GenX generation, the "sensitive" man became the new ideal. This kind of man understands and perhaps has even experienced firsthand the difficulties women face and so is kind and considerate.

 

Nothing wrong with this sensitive guy but somewhere along the way, this sensitive man also became a weak, needy and sometimes even idiotic male who had the immaturity of a child. Throughout the 90's and early 2000s, shows that portrayed a dumb, child-like but "sensitive" man like Everybody Loves Raymond became the norm. The wife character was always the wise, strong one who is always right and the husband is some idiot needy child in a man's body but has a good heart and is "sensitive."

 

So women don't want the strong alpha male who has too many women chasing after him. And they also don't want the weak, needy male because he's not in demand at all by other women and is also too idiotic and weak to be reliable and to face the challenges of life. So what's in between?

 

Well, it's the Christian Grey male. He may be an extreme example but essentially, women want a man who is strong and successful in his professional life and in his personal life. He is confident but not in an egotistic way. He is sensitive to women and respects women's rights but not to the extent that he compromises his own values. He is assertive and expresses interest in women but not in an overbearing or needy manner. He prefers to get to know women slowly and over time in order to truly evaluate whether they're a good fit for each other or not. He is not desperate and he knows that there are many women out there who will be interested in him if this particular woman doesn't work out. He is also independent and can take care of himself. He looks after his health and knows how to clean and maintain his home. He maybe can even cook well or at the very least, be able to take care of his dietary needs. He dresses well based on the occasion and is self-sufficient in his life. He has his own hobbies and interests and his own goals in life. He doesn't need a woman. He wants a woman who can complement his life rather than saving it.

 

The reason why characters like christian grey got created was because what I just described above is a very tall order. There simply aren't enough men who can fulfill the above. So you get Mr. Grey who on the surface appears to be the perfect man but he actually has some deep emotional insecurities and issues. But instead of this repulsing women, it actually endears to them because unlike most men, he's willing to be vulnerable and to share how he really feels. He doesn't try to hide his flaws or pretend they don't exist. He's authentic and real.

 

So in other words, the perfect man for the current society we live in is someone who is accomplished both professionally and personally and is self-sufficient. He always strives to be the best he can be but will also admit his flaws and doesn't try to hide them from others. In fact, he may even embrace his flaws and work actively to overcome them. He's a strong man who isn't afraid to admit flaws and weaknesses and shortcomings. He'll do things and get things done despite feeling fear and anxiety.

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I'd like to hear more about how your mother and father were like as you grew up - their values, dynamic, roles.

 

I'm going on a limb here that there wasn't a lot of equality shown nor were you taught that.

 

I agree that family dynamics plays a part in one's views and attitudes as an adult.

 

As I said, my family dynamic growing up was such that my mom was very submissive and subservient to my dad.

 

This is just how it was, my friends' parents had the same dynamic. They all practiced Catholicism as well.

 

We went to Church every Sunday and sermons preached this stiff.

 

Now as an adult, while I have rejected Catholicism, some of it has stuck with me.

 

For example, while I am very independent, with my own thoughts, ideas, opinions, etc., I do prefer and am drawn to "dominant" men.

 

Not controlling but it can be a fine line.

 

Sexually, I am into Dom/sub.

 

Not serious BDSM, I actually rejected a man a couple of months back who was into that. I created a thread about it if you're interested in hearing details.

 

Interestingly, while my biological mom was subservient to my dad (I also have a step mom who was NOT subservient), she was very dominant with us kids.

 

She called all the shots, although my dad did do stuff like helped with homework, took us to Playland, and Jones Beach on weekends, spent a lot of time with us, mostly fun stuff.

 

Mom was the disciplinarian.

 

But within their marriage, HE was the dominant one.

 

Interesting dynamic, which no doubt has had an effect on my preferences and how I view romantic and sexual relationships as an adult.

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OP without discussing the Christian Grey character specifically, I agree with you more generally: generally speaking, women prefer a man who is capable, strong in a crisis, and self-aware, and who accepts himself as a human with certain aptitudes. Men describe to me very similar traits when they describe what they want in a woman. If we are to present ourselves to someone else in full, then we must accept and take responsibility for the certain fact that we are presenting them with a flawed product. For all of us is a mixed bag of traits, each strength is also a flaw and vice versa.

 

We take care of each other in the manner that best suits our individual assortment of strengths.

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I'm not religious but I do come from a conservative immigrant family from a country where patriarchy exists. I personally don't believe my parents' marriage should be the norm at all. However, I do think the dynamics between men and women hasn't really changed. A lot of is biological wiring which has evolved over millennia.

 

Women still want a strong, reliable man who is not needy and who can take care of her and can handle the challenges and difficulties of life. The problem is, men such as these are high in demand from other women and so cheating happens. In the last 20 years or so starting with the GenX generation, the "sensitive" man became the new ideal. This kind of man understands and perhaps has even experienced firsthand the difficulties women face and so is kind and considerate.

 

Nothing wrong with this sensitive guy but somewhere along the way, this sensitive man also became a weak, needy and sometimes even idiotic male who had the immaturity of a child. Throughout the 90's and early 2000s, shows that portrayed a dumb, child-like but "sensitive" man like Everybody Loves Raymond became the norm. The wife character was always the wise, strong one who is always right and the husband is some idiot needy child in a man's body but has a good heart and is "sensitive."

 

So women don't want the strong alpha male who has too many women chasing after him. And they also don't want the weak, needy male because he's not in demand at all by other women and is also too idiotic and weak to be reliable and to face the challenges of life. So what's in between?

 

Well, it's the Christian Grey male. He may be an extreme example but essentially, women want a man who is strong and successful in his professional life and in his personal life. He is confident but not in an egotistic way. He is sensitive to women and respects women's rights but not to the extent that he compromises his own values. He is assertive and expresses interest in women but not in an overbearing or needy manner. He prefers to get to know women slowly and over time in order to truly evaluate whether they're a good fit for each other or not. He is not desperate and he knows that there are many women out there who will be interested in him if this particular woman doesn't work out. He is also independent and can take care of himself. He looks after his health and knows how to clean and maintain his home. He maybe can even cook well or at the very least, be able to take care of his dietary needs. He dresses well based on the occasion and is self-sufficient in his life. He has his own hobbies and interests and his own goals in life. He doesn't need a woman. He wants a woman who can complement his life rather than saving it.

 

The reason why characters like christian grey got created was because what I just described above is a very tall order. There simply aren't enough men who can fulfill the above. So you get Mr. Grey who on the surface appears to be the perfect man but he actually has some deep emotional insecurities and issues. But instead of this repulsing women, it actually endears to them because unlike most men, he's willing to be vulnerable and to share how he really feels. He doesn't try to hide his flaws or pretend they don't exist. He's authentic and real.

 

So in other words, the perfect man for the current society we live in is someone who is accomplished both professionally and personally and is self-sufficient. He always strives to be the best he can be but will also admit his flaws and doesn't try to hide them from others. In fact, he may even embrace his flaws and work actively to overcome them. He's a strong man who isn't afraid to admit flaws and weaknesses and shortcomings. He'll do things and get things done despite feeling fear and anxiety.

 

Ok now imagine me pigeon holeing all men in this manner. Men want women who are a, b , c and d.

 

Is there a general trend? Yes, looks and success, you think Christian Grey would have an adoring following if he was an overweight bank teller? Nope! It's not rocket science, anything deeper though? Like your intricate list of apparent demands women have? It's in your mind. Men, women, human being were way to complex to be pinned down in a few paragraphs.

 

You will never ever ever be able to pin down an understanding of all women, it's impossible because it doesn't exist. Just like all men aren't the same. What drives male and female attraction can never be pinned down because for every woman who wants to be submissive, there's a woman who wants to be dominant. For every woman who wants a sensitive man who listens, there's a woman who is attracted to muscle men who say very little. Men are the same way, wouldn't you say.

 

You're treating women as if were a science project and if you crack the code you'll understand women, that's far from the truth. Look at male heart throbs, some are night and day but they still have their audience.

 

There is no formula, if there was, I promise you the man who figured it out wouldn't be discussing it on a message board, he would be patenting it and making billions and there would be absolute chaos.

 

Often times, (not saying with you but maybe), when a man does this whole 'all women want this and that and this and that' I view it as a defense mechanism. They create their competition in their minds and often theyre these God like men.

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Responding to the simplicity of the title:

 

Yes, some women are strong as granite in mind spirit and muscle. Such a woman can take a lot. Doesn't mean she wants to! Just because I am a proven survivor does it mean I wish for more pain and adversity? No, I don't. I wish for kindness and ease. I can challenge myself with my endeavors and don't wish for emotional games from any man. If you want me, show me. If you don't show me, I'll think you don't want me. Its simple.

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Responding to the simplicity of the title:

 

Yes, some women are strong as granite in mind spirit and muscle. Such a woman can take a lot. Doesn't mean she wants to! Just because I am a proven survivor does it mean I wish for more pain and adversity? No, I don't. I wish for kindness and ease. I can challenge myself with my endeavors .....

 

*and don't wish for emotional games from any man. If you want me, show me. If you don't show me, I'll think you don't want me. Its simple.

 

Very well said, true for me as well and the part I singled out with asterisk?

 

Hell yeah! I tend to take things at face value so such games get totally lost on me.

 

Although to my credit I have become much more aware of them and have found such "games" have the opposite effect on me than what was intended.

 

Most of the time.

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OP without discussing the Christian Grey character specifically, I agree with you more generally: generally speaking, women prefer a man who is capable, strong in a crisis, and self-aware, and who accepts himself as a human with certain aptitudes. Men describe to me very similar traits when they describe what they want in a woman. If we are to present ourselves to someone else in full, then we must accept and take responsibility for the certain fact that we are presenting them with a flawed product. For all of us is a mixed bag of traits, each strength is also a flaw and vice versa.

 

We take care of each other in the manner that best suits our individual assortment of strengths.

 

Yah most women including ones who hate the novel and the character agree that despite all his faults, he DOES display certain traits/qualities that make men attractive in general. Not to keep going back to this character because I almost regret mentioning him now as I was just using him as an extreme example to reinforce my point, but looks and wealth aside, he does display attractive traits that women want all men to have. He has a lot going for himself professionally. He has goals and those goals aren't just to make a ton of money but also to help others. He's altruistic. He doesn't really need women to validate anything about himself. And he's confident. Even when people are snickering at him, he embraces his own strangeness and embraces his faults. In his relationship with Anna, he's not needy or finding some sorta validation from her. It's almost like he's asking her for help. He tells her he's screwed up and wants her help. That's a big difference between neediness.

 

For the common man, he can apply alot of that in his behavior towards women. Instead of being needy and seeking validation, there's no shame in asking a women for help in something. Most women have nurturing instincts and want to help. Helping you actually may make her more invested in you emotionally and she may become more attached. It's not a sign of weakness to see help.

 

Ok now imagine me pigeon holeing all men in this manner. Men want women who are a, b , c and d.

 

Is there a general trend? Yes, looks and success, you think Christian Grey would have an adoring following if he was an overweight bank teller? Nope! It's not rocket science, anything deeper though? Like your intricate list of apparent demands women have? It's in your mind. Men, women, human being were way to complex to be pinned down in a few paragraphs.

 

You will never ever ever be able to pin down an understanding of all women, it's impossible because it doesn't exist. Just like all men aren't the same. What drives male and female attraction can never be pinned down because for every woman who wants to be submissive, there's a woman who wants to be dominant. For every woman who wants a sensitive man who listens, there's a woman who is attracted to muscle men who say very little. Men are the same way, wouldn't you say.

 

You're treating women as if were a science project and if you crack the code you'll understand women, that's far from the truth. Look at male heart throbs, some are night and day but they still have their audience.

 

There is no formula, if there was, I promise you the man who figured it out wouldn't be discussing it on a message board, he would be patenting it and making billions and there would be absolute chaos.

 

Often times, (not saying with you but maybe), when a man does this whole 'all women want this and that and this and that' I view it as a defense mechanism. They create their competition in their minds and often theyre these God like men.

 

Yeah our tastes are all different. But I think all women agree that neediness and a validation/desperation mindset (or the white knight mindset) is universally unattractive. Just like how most men (who are visually-driven) would find an obese women universally unattractive.

 

Responding to the simplicity of the title:

 

Yes, some women are strong as granite in mind spirit and muscle. Such a woman can take a lot. Doesn't mean she wants to! Just because I am a proven survivor does it mean I wish for more pain and adversity? No, I don't. I wish for kindness and ease. I can challenge myself with my endeavors and don't wish for emotional games from any man. If you want me, show me. If you don't show me, I'll think you don't want me. Its simple.

 

Except it's not that simple. You don't think about it from a man's point of view who has gone through countless rejections when he was simple and straightforward. The kind of men who can get away with just being straightforward and have success with women are ones who are tall and conventionally attractive. Or they got really lucky and just met the right girl early on in his life and so he didn't have to endure the countless rejections from approaching women.

 

I did not invent all the dating advice for men out there. They exist for a reason and that is, most men don't have any luck just being straightforward. They'll get rejection.

 

My advice isn't at all meant to manipulate or somehow make women like men. No, whether a particular woman finds a man attractive is highly individualistic and there's just way too many factors. What I'm talking about is how men can keep their dignity intact and how to NOT be needy and validation seeking. I'm not saying they should stop pursuing women or play mind games.

 

If a man can reduce his needy/validation seeking white knighting behavior, he can approach and pursue women in a way that is more natural and even fun. He will also be able to keep his dignity and confidence intact should things not work out because if he's got his own life and values himself, he will realize they were just not a good fit and that it's not because he's flawed or doesn't measure up.

 

Obviously, you can't understand this because as a woman, it's easy for you to just say men should do this and do that. I'm always baffled at the advice women give their male friends. Often it's like, "Yah just talk to her..." or something like that. Yah it's all great if the guy is someone she's already attracted to and he just comes up and talks to you. What if he's not your type? What if there's something about his looks or his demeanor that you find creepy or unattractive? What if he was straightforward then? When you give such advice to men, what you're really imagining is a man who is your type doing that to you Of course you would want that.

 

Women generally don't like being forced into any situation. They want things to happen organically and naturally. This is why so many women meet their boyfriends while travelling or doing something fun because the situation and circumstances just made it happen. Men who have white knight behavior tend to follow a script in their head and want to force an outcome even if the timing isn't right and the situation isn't right. He just HAS to have her because he needs the validation. What my advice is suggesting is for a way for needy/white knight men to pursue women in a way that is more natural and organic.

 

Which would you prefer? Some needy desperate guy who wants to force an outcome with you and wants you to be his girlfriend or commit in some way when you barely know him or if the situation isn't even appropriate? Or a man who is self-aware and socially aware and cares for how you're feeling at the present moment and just has a sense of when to pursue you vs when he should just leave you alone and give you space?

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^ Yeah a man expressing that sort of vulnerability to me and asking for my help is like a drug to me, an addictive drug.

 

Problem is, when a man is that confused, conflicted, anxious, scared, or just "messed up" such internal conflict often manifests into hurtful behavior, and it's difficult to remain in a situation with a man who is displaying such hurtful behavior.

 

Albeit unintentionally, but it's still hurtful.

 

Which is why Anna left too, correct?

 

My ex and I went through this, and walking away was one of the most difficult and painful things I ever did in my entire life.

 

But I had to, staying was just too painful and hurtful, plus despite nearly begging for my help, I KNEW I couldn't help.

 

He needed to help himself by getting himself into rehab, which he did.

 

AFTER I walked out, which is worth noting.

 

I am way past it now, but it still haunts me sometimes. That I walked out.

 

Good post though CV, very thoughtful and insightful in my opinion.

Edited by katrina1980
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OP where your logic falls apart is in the application of it at a detailed level. While most or even if all men are visual, men value an array of visually apparent traits. What is attractive to one is rail and unattractively thin to another. What is sexy to one is overweight to another. What is feminine to one is vulgar to another. There is no one standard, even within one country or subculture.

 

Also, what is visually appealing doesn't lead to a relationship - something to which I can attest, as I have more than one example of receiving accolades for various traits including appearance, brains, and values and yet not being desired for an LTR.

 

In addition, I do not have an innately present desire to nurture, as my kids will attest. When injured in sports I check brains and knees and otherwise dismiss the rest unless its truly an emergency. I expect them to be self reliant; they won't learm that by having me cuddle them into adulthood.

 

What you see as nurturing is what I see as clingy, enabling behavior. What I hope to offer is kindness, same as I seek.

 

I recommend you do not apply general trends to individual traits. A relationship is between two individuals. It is the most daring exercise, perhaps, to meet one another naked, without the blanket of compliance with supposed universal truth.

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OP where your logic falls apart is in the application of it at a detailed level. While most or even if all men are visual, men value an array of visually apparent traits. What is attractive to one is rail and unattractively thin to another. What is sexy to one is overweight to another. What is feminine to one is vulgar to another. There is no one standard, even within one country or subculture.

 

Also, what is visually appealing doesn't lead to a relationship - something to which I can attest, as I have more than one example of receiving accolades for various traits including appearance, brains, and values and yet not being desired for an LTR.

 

In addition, I do not have an innately present desire to nurture, as my kids will attest. When injured in sports I check brains and knees and otherwise dismiss the rest unless its truly an emergency. I expect them to be self reliant; they won't learm that by having me cuddle them into adulthood.

 

What you see as nurturing is what I see as clingy, enabling behavior. What I hope to offer is kindness, same as I seek.

 

I recommend you do not apply general trends to individual traits. A relationship is between two individuals. It is the most daring exercise, perhaps, to meet one another naked, without the blanket of compliance with supposed universal truth.

 

BINGO!

 

As I stated in a previous post this mindset typically happens as a defense mechanism with men who have a hard time dating. As you pointed out OPer you had trouble in that area.

 

I admit, 'just talk to her' isn't the greatest advice to give an unattractive guy, hes gonna have to come up with something more. But the fact is it's the same for a woman, I can't tell you how frustrated I was when men on this site were telling women 'just take the lead and message him, that's what he wants' yeah from the hot chick he's interested in, not the chick trying to get the attention of a dude out of her league.

 

Look, the reality is if you're lacking in the success or looks department it makes dating a bit more tricky, that's not to say average people don't succeed everyday and they don't do it by figuring out tricks, it'll work temporarily... MAYBE. But I don't think anything works better than being yourself and attracting someone you mesh well with.

 

If you came up to me looking like Ron Howard telling me I enjoy pain your getting kicked in the nutts, that kind of one two punch is just down right unacceptable...

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Hi pips.

 

I can't say where the OP's head is, but I was raised Catholic and was required to attend weekly bible classes.

 

A woman suffering pain in childbirth comes from the Book of Genesis (3:16) -- God making women's pain in childbirth so severe -- God said "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth," "with painful labor you will give birth to your children; yet your desire shall be for your husband....."

 

Not sure if it's still this way, but when a couple marries in the Catholic Church, the priest says to the women "you promise to love, honor and OBEY your husband."

 

Women were taught to be submissive, subservient to their husbands. This is the type of marriage my own parents had and the environment I was raised in.

 

As an adult, I have rejected all this, and consider myself an agnostic, but Im thinking perhaps that is where the OP is getting this stuff???

 

Also, in the United States, there is currently a society of men borne of the Catholic Church, called the "Promise Keepers."

 

I don't know much about it but in doing a quick Google search, the National Organization for Women (NOW), an American feminist organization, alleges they encourage inequality within marriage and teach a doctrine of male superiority. Which I sort of knew which is why I mentioned it. The movement is very alive and growing.

 

Of course BDSM is a whole different thing.

 

Again, can't say if this where the OP's ideas and beliefs are coming from, but it's possible.

 

Apologies for bringing religion into this but thought it was worth noting.

 

hi Katrina

................

deleted ....please don't ever throw Catholicism my way again

Edited by pippy longstocking
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Yah most women including ones who hate the novel and the character agree that despite all his faults, he DOES display certain traits/qualities that make men attractive in general. Not to keep going back to this character because I almost regret mentioning him now as I was just using him as an extreme example to reinforce my point, but looks and wealth aside, he does display attractive traits that women want all men to have

 

deleted ......

Edited by pippy longstocking
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"...most men don't have any luck just being straightforward. They'll get rejection."

 

Most people get rejected. Regardless of who they are. Its just a question of when. At the ask? After the first date? 6 months later? Most of us are ill-suited for one another, unless we simply decide to make something work and our own preferences be dismissed.

 

For my own part, I tend to reject any man whom I don't otherwise know, whom I meet for work purposes, or responds to my looks. If he uses looks as a point of approach I may engage with him but only conversationally - and that's where it ends unless something more substantive between us bubbles up. Looks are replacable. I'm not.

 

I should add ... I get rejected more than I reject, I think. I

sometimes think I am being approached to see if I will initiate a date, but I don't notice till later if at all and don't like an indirect approach, so I ignore it.

 

Anyone who values themselves will want to invest in someone who is secure with themselves. That is the underlying assumption when we see confidence and leadership. People who are secure with themselves have shortcomings, of course. That doesnt mean they need fixing.

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BINGO!

 

As I stated in a previous post this mindset typically happens as a defense mechanism with men who have a hard time dating. As you pointed out OPer you had trouble in that area.

 

I admit, 'just talk to her' isn't the greatest advice to give an unattractive guy, hes gonna have to come up with something more. But the fact is it's the same for a woman, I can't tell you how frustrated I was when men on this site were telling women 'just take the lead and message him, that's what he wants' yeah from the hot chick he's interested in, not the chick trying to get the attention of a dude out of her league.

 

Look, the reality is if you're lacking in the success or looks department it makes dating a bit more tricky, that's not to say average people don't succeed everyday and they don't do it by figuring out tricks, it'll work temporarily... MAYBE. But I don't think anything works better than being yourself and attracting someone you mesh well with.

 

If you came up to me looking like Ron Howard telling me I enjoy pain your getting kicked in the nutts, that kind of one two punch is just down right unacceptable...

 

Except being yourself is just as bad advice to give to someone who is unattractive and having trouble dating. What has "being himself" done for him so far in life? If being himself was so great, why isn't he having more success in dating? Obviously, being himself is not good enough.

 

That is not to say he should undergo a personality transformation. First off that's impossible. But he should be looking at the things he can change and improve on. Even seemingly small marginal improvements can go a long way. The saying of "big things have small beginnings" is totally true. However, self-improvement is a long-term thing and most people don't have the will to see it through. They'll put in effort for a couple months and get frustrated when their lives don't improve.

 

The thing is, these unattractive dateless guys, it's worth it more to invest time and possibly money into self-improvement than it is to waste money at bars/clubs hoping to get lucky with a lady. Self-improvement is long lasting and increases one's self-confidence and self-worth.

 

What's more, guys with white knight behavior tend to care very much about what other people think. Often times, when a nice guy white knight who is unattractive and can't get dates embarks on a journey of self-improvement, he will take criticism from others very seriously. The detractors will often be close family members and close friends, people whom you thought would be most supportive.

 

I kinda get what you're saying. There's no miracle formula. I think that's the point you were trying to make. But you should never tell guys to "be himself." Now there's also no guarantee if you improve yourself in whatever area of life that you'll get a girl. But the chances are higher and in the meantime, you gain self-confidence and self-worth. It's a win win situation. Plus, you'll be busy doing something with your life. Cause what's the alternative? Stewing away on lonely saturday nights? Spending money on drinks at bars/clubs hoping a girl will take pity on you? Or actively working on yourself whether it's becoming a subject matter expert in your career, or taking on a new hobby that requires some skill or getting into shape or even travelling and learning new languages.

 

I've never heard a woman say something like, "oh what a loser. He's spending his saturday night at home practicing his dance steps for a dance competition next week." or "what a loser, he spent a month travelling in spain to learn Spanish." Women admire effort, especially real effort that isn't easy to do. I used dancing as an example because I started a hobby of ballroom dancing as a means of self-improvement and also out of interest as I'm a musical/artsy person. I haven't gotten a girlfriend out of it. But my self-confidence is better. I like myself more, especially physically. I stopped drinking and lost a ton of weight and I look better too. Ballroom dancing is an expensive hobby. I got plenty of detractors, even my parents. The ironic thing is, in my late 20s, I spent an equal amount of money going out to bars/clubs with friends hoping to land chicks. They all landed chicks and I didn't. But I spent just as much money if not more. Now I don't do that and I'm using my money in a hobby that makes me healthy, more confident and something I enjoy.

 

Is it gonna land me some chick? Probably not. But next time I go into a social situation that involves dancing, I won't be spending a ton of money buying drinks for chicks in an effort to talk to them. Instead, I'll ask them to dance and when the dance is done, I'll go and buy a drink for myself. And yah, girls still won't want to go home with me but at least they had fun dancing with me. Most girls love to dance and will say yes to a guy who asks them to dance even if he's unattractive.

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^ Yeah a man expressing that sort of vulnerability to me and asking for my help is like a drug to me, an addictive drug.

 

Problem is, when a man is that confused, conflicted, anxious, scared, or just "messed up" such internal conflict often manifests into hurtful behavior, and it's difficult to remain in a situation with a man who is displaying such hurtful behavior.

 

Albeit unintentionally, but it's still hurtful.

 

Which is why Anna left too, correct?

 

My ex and I went through this, and walking away was one of the most difficult and painful things I ever did in my entire life.

 

But I had to, staying was just too painful and hurtful, plus despite nearly begging for my help, I KNEW I couldn't help.

 

He needed to help himself by getting himself into rehab, which he did.

 

AFTER I walked out, which is worth noting.

 

I am way past it now, but it still haunts me sometimes. That I walked out.

 

Good post though CV, very thoughtful and insightful in my opinion.

 

 

It took a massive heartbreak for me to change too. I too was an addict. I still struggle with addiction sometimes but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

 

The thing with addicts is, if you give a mouse a cookie...he's gonna want a glass of milk. He totally fed off you letting him off the hook.

 

I really got off on hurting my ex and then pleading for forgiveness and each time she took me back, I'd be good for awhile and then go back to my ways. It was like a great high when she took me back.

 

True change only occurred after I realized I had gone too far and she was truly done with me. Although like you, she never really stopped caring for me.

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This (below) describes you, OP, finding joy by violating someone else. This is criminal behavior. I understand you said the high was when she took you back, but to get that high you hurt her knowing she didn't want you to hurt her. That is selfish and abusive behavior, and a reflection of your inability to believe anyone would love you -- also relfects your inability to value your own and others' humanity. These are deep seated ideas driving you to inflict pain and violate people you claim to love.

 

I am hopeful you have a way to pursue a regular treatment course with a psychoanalyst.

 

"I really got off on hurting my ex and then pleading for forgiveness and each time she took me back, I'd be good for awhile and then go back to my ways. It was like a great high when she took me back."

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Drugs really mess with your head. My ex said and did some crazy hurtful **** while in the throes of addiction.

 

I don't believe he "intentionally" wanted to hurt me, but who knows, doubt he would have ever admitted it if he did.

 

He did admit to feeling "pressured" by me, but then admitted later, when sober, it was nothing I did, it was a self-imposed pressure.

 

I'd be curious to know, now that CV is off drugs, if he still feels this desire to hurt women and gets off on when they take him back.

 

As I said, drugs can do some crazy **** to your brain, causing one to think and behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't if not addicted to drugs.

Edited by katrina1980
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Drugs really mess with your head. My ex said and did some crazy hurtful **** while in the throes of addiction.

 

I don't believe he "intentionally" wanted to hurt me, but who knows, doubt he would have ever admitted it if he did.

 

He did admit to feeling "pressured" by me, but then admitted later, when sober, it was nothing I did, it was a self-imposed pressure.

 

I'd be curious to know, now that CV is off drugs, if he still feels this desire to hurt women and gets off on when they take him back.

 

As I said, drugs can do some crazy **** to your brain, causing one to think and behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't if not addicted to drugs.

 

That is a valid point. I hope it is better.

 

CV's discussion reflects the same struggle to find and to accept humanity the way we are, to value each of us simply because we are human, end of story. It isn't about our looks, accomplishments, personality, etc. There isn't a power dynamic that puts him at a disadvantage, unless he undermines himself by thinking he isn't worthy. I do hope someone is helping him sort through these issues because they are complex.

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Drugs really mess with your head. My ex said and did some crazy hurtful **** while in the throes of addiction.

 

I don't believe he "intentionally" wanted to hurt me, but who knows, doubt he would have ever admitted it if he did.

 

He did admit to feeling "pressured" by me, but then admitted later, when sober, it was nothing I did, it was a self-imposed pressure.

 

I'd be curious to know, now that CV is off drugs, if he still feels this desire to hurt women and gets off on when they take him back.

 

As I said, drugs can do some crazy **** to your brain, causing one to think and behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't if not addicted to drugs.

 

The underlying problem isn't drugs. People with addictive personality such as myself and your ex seek out drugs and other addictive substances because there's something in our nervous and psychological system that is just drawn to it. Was your ex a perfectionist? Was he very successful in his career? Did he have some sorta hobby that he was obsessive about it? Taking drugs or alcohol is just one manifestation of addiction.

 

You mix that with trust issues in relationships. I don't think I truly enjoy hurting women. I think what I enjoy is the highs and lows. Without the lows, you can't truly experience the highs. It's the same reason I get off on stress in an important project at work. And why I enjoy performing in dance. I enjoy the high of uncertainty and the unpredictability. I'm a very shy and quiet person and so I tend to attract nice women who are seeking stable healthy relationships. But these same women because of their nurturing instincts, once they find out the real me, they want to "cure me" and turn me into a more relaxed, easy going, stable person.

 

I'm 34 years old now and I'm off drugs and alcohol. I seek healthy outlets now. I'm also mellowing out. I can totally foresee in a few years where I'll be ready for a nice, safe, stable relationship and be able to enjoy it.

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This (below) describes you, OP, finding joy by violating someone else. This is criminal behavior. I understand you said the high was when she took you back, but to get that high you hurt her knowing she didn't want you to hurt her. That is selfish and abusive behavior, and a reflection of your inability to believe anyone would love you -- also relfects your inability to value your own and others' humanity. These are deep seated ideas driving you to inflict pain and violate people you claim to love.

 

I am hopeful you have a way to pursue a regular treatment course with a psychoanalyst.

 

"I really got off on hurting my ex and then pleading for forgiveness and each time she took me back, I'd be good for awhile and then go back to my ways. It was like a great high when she took me back."

 

Ironically for a thread that is anti-white knight, there's an awful lot of white knighting going on in this thread, especially from the male members. One mention of Christian Grey and the fact that I found it amusing when a woman winced in pain and all of a sudden I'm this monster.

 

Yah I acknowledge I have some issues. But a lot of the white knights on here probably have their own dark side but like most white knights, instead of acknowledging and embracing their own dark sides, they make fun and ostracize the guy in order to curry favour with the women on here.

 

At least female members such as you and Katrina are willing to talk and discuss the issues instead of just purely passing judgement.

 

That's the problem with white knight men. They put on this facade of being totally clean and proper and hiding all their flaws and dark desires. This kind of behavior is becoming more prevalent in today's society where men are so insecure themselves and so desperate for female approval.

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CV I understand what you mean about the highs and lows.

 

Years back, I was diagnosed with Bipolar 2 so have had plenty of that going on in my life already without experiencing it in my RLs too.

 

Although, like you, I am drawn to it in my RLs, for some reason. Probably due to the Bipolar, which thankfully I am managing through diet and exercise and just avoiding negativity and toxic situations in my life.

 

Working hard to create a new path for myself, becoming attracted to different things (i.e. stable men and relationships) because all the emotional highs and lows have a profound effect on me that isn't healthy, and in fact, very harmful.

 

What I seek now is a balance, I think that is key. I will always hate (maybe too strong of a word) the boring and mundane, same ole, same ole. But at the same time, RLs that offer high drama don't appeal to me either anymore.

 

I do need to be challenged to a certain extent. And I need strong man who doesn't tolerate BS, because lord knows I sure do know how to dish it out when given the opportunity. Or used to, not so much anymore. Not intentionally of course, I suppose it was just the nature of my disease (before being able to manage effectively).

 

I've also simply matured and grown up these past few years; always learning, growing, evolving.

 

Introspection and self-reflection is good. And it sounds to me like you're doing those things and on the right path in reaching a place of peace in your life. Me too.

 

Peace of course being defined however you wish to define it, for yourself.

 

Wishing us both luck on our respective journeys!

Edited by katrina1980
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Ironically for a thread that is anti-white knight, there's an awful lot of white knighting going on in this thread, especially from the male members. One mention of Christian Grey and the fact that I found it amusing when a woman winced in pain and all of a sudden I'm this monster.

 

Yah I acknowledge I have some issues. But a lot of the white knights on here probably have their own dark side but like most white knights, instead of acknowledging and embracing their own dark sides, they make fun and ostracize the guy in order to curry favour with the women on here.

 

At least female members such as you and Katrina are willing to talk and discuss the issues instead of just purely passing judgement.

 

That's the problem with white knight men. They put on this facade of being totally clean and proper and hiding all their flaws and dark desires. This kind of behavior is becoming more prevalent in today's society where men are so insecure themselves and so desperate for female approval.

 

 

I fully admit I have seen the mindset you speak of on here, more so with women then men though, sometimes its gag worthy and super obvious, but I look at it as more groupthink than white knighting.

 

I always though IamFCA was a woman...

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