How to make a relationship work with no trust?

[greta96]

So for the past 2 months (I think?) I have been in a relationship with someone I've posted about, and the general consensus was that the guy was no good and I shouldn't pursue anything further. But because of human nature, and a sense of "I really need to see where this goes" on my part, I entered a relationship with him after he finally dumped his FWB/girlfriend(?).

The truth is, for about 6 months he dated both of us, and he was telling me that he had no feelings for her, he only saw her once every 2 weeks to once a month, and that their relationship was dying anyway. We were not intimate during those months because I made it clear I wasn't going to share anyone sexually, but we were pretty close never the less.

Before you guys ask how come I didn't feel bad about being the other woman - no, I didn't. That woman had interfered with my relationship with him in the past (I dated him years ago), knowing he was with me, so in my eyes she had it coming. I couldn't care less about her feelings, just as she didn't care about mine back in the day.

 

But 3 or so months ago, he told me he decided to end things with her, so we became a couple. He's been pretty good, I have to admit. Eons better than what he'd been in the past, he keeps in touch daily for the most part, and we see each other every 3 days or so. However, the fact that he cheated on that woman with me is playing a nasty song at the back of my mind. That, and a few poorly thought blatant lies on his part as to how he spent some evenings when he didn't call me. He is not a good liar, nor does he have a good enough memory to successfully lie, so I *know* when he's lying, but I never have a way to prove it so all I can do is go along with it and pretend to believe.

 

I don't trust him. I'm good as long as he's in touch with me. But about once a week, he skips a night of calling, and my mind goes to the darkest places, especially when his reasons don't hold any water. Is he still with that woman? Is he seeing someone else? He is clearly not telling me something, but I don't know what it is. I can't confront him with it because realistically I have no proof that he didn't fall asleep, or that he didn't work late, even though nobody naps for 9 hours twice between the exact same hours, and nobody works 17 hours a day when there are no deadlines to be met.

 

I don't want to end this relationship, I just don't know how to cope with the suspicions. Maybe he just doesn't feel like calling me one night, or maybe he goes with a buddy to have a drink at a bar, it doesn't have to be another woman necessarily. But what if it is? After all, I'm sure he was telling that woman the same lies when he was with me!

 

Talking with him about it is not an option, I did quite a few times and while at the beginning he was reassuring, over time he became increasingly annoyed (with good reason) and asked me to either trust him or end the relationship. I know he's right about that, but then...the blatant lies! And the knowledge that he's not a stranger to cheating, in fact he does it with no remorse what so ever!

 

It sucks. He's always good after a shady episode, but I can't seem to have 7 days in a row without something suspicious happening... If I had proof of him cheating, I would end it right away, but I don't, nor can I obtain one. How do I go on like this?

[SherrySher]

I'm sorry to bring up this quote but it is so true.."how you got them, is how you will lose them"...he is a cheater and you know that. He does not respect loyalty nor does he do things properly such as break up first before pursuing another woman. You know his personality, and it won't change, the only thing you can do is leave him and find someone who is not a cheat as not all men are like this.

No, nothing is 100% that he will cheat, but with how he is, the chances are very high.

[Batya33]

You don't because you cannot have a relationship without trust -not a healthy one, anyway. You didn't pursue him because of "human nature" -you chose to, from a variety of choices, and now you are seeing the downside of your choice. The only way you will trust him is if he can tell you that he believes cheating is wrong, and how he plans to go about making the choice not to cheat in relationships anymore.

 

He doesn't have to keep in touch daily for you to trust him -that's not fair to either of you and sounds boring unless he wants to keep in touch daily. Your mind of course goes to the place of not trusting because he did not act in a trustworthy way very recently and he continues to lie. So it's not just your mind going to a "dark place" it's a normal common sense reaction. You don't need proof of cheating to end things. You need proof that you don't trust him -and you have that.

[greta96]

You don't because you cannot have a relationship without trust -not a healthy one, anyway. You didn't pursue him because of "human nature" -you chose to, from a variety of choices, and now you are seeing the downside of your choice. The only way you will trust him is if he can tell you that he believes cheating is wrong, and how he plans to go about making the choice not to cheat in relationships anymore..

 

I knew the downside of my choice even before I started the relationship with him...I remember telling my girlfriend that I would never trust him if I was in a relationship with him...yet I didn't listen to my own advice.

He did tell me many times that he believes cheating is wrong...but the thing is, he doesn't believe he cheated on his ex because according to him, they were pretty much just fwb by the time we crossed paths again, they were barely seeing each other, had nothing in common anymore, etc. So he simply refuses to call what he did cheating, but to me it was, as he was still being intimate with her and I have a feeling that he was seeing her more than he ever admitted to me. But again...do I have any proof? No.

 

I can't ask him to keep in contact daily, so far he's done it because it was his own choice, but when he doesn't, of course I don't want to be the needy girlfriend who asks "but why didn't you call me last night?". He hates needy, clingy, he hates being questioned - and I can't blame him, I wouldn't like it if he did it to me either. But like you said, my reaction is common sense. Although, I have my own issues and tend to be paranoid, sometimes with no reason. Sometimes I feel like I am losing my mind lol.

[greta96]

I'm sorry to bring up this quote but it is so true.."how you got them, is how you will lose them"....

 

That's what I'm afraid of.

[SherrySher]

The thing with those kind of people that would worry me is, they always seem to fall back into the same old patterns.

What I mean is, all relationships are going to run into trouble at some point. It could be stresses from work, overtired, family problems, money problems, but it will cause the couple to not be so happy. People like this guy, seem to use those situations as excuses to find happiness elsewhere and think it's okay to do that. He would feel that the relationship wasn't working anyhow, or he thought you were on the verge or breaking up anyhow, etc. Bumps in the road would just give him a reason to attach himself to another woman.

 

The lying to is a huge thing in my books. I don't deal with liars. I don't ever see a reason for an adult to lie. It does not matter if it's a white lie or a huge lie, lying is a fake truth and it's not something I am ever willing to deal with. To me, it's a huge sign of immaturity and irresponsibility. You can't depend on someone who is like that, nor trust them.

[EternalOptimis]

Cheating is the most destructive force in the universe within the context of a supposedly monogamous relationship.

You are subscribing to lifelong pain by staying / hoping to change him.

He won't change, it's in his nature. Look up the fable of the frog and the scorpion

[Keyman]

I was going to say this is only going to end in disaster, but it is already one of those, so I don't think a lot is going to change.

 

Ultimately, you have gone into a relationship with a dog and you hope he will magically transform into a cabbage. The reality is that under all the leaves you have stapled to him, he will always be a dog. Cryptic, I know, but I had fun writing that.

 

You have entered a relationship with someone you can't trust, and now you are paranoid of him cheating? Yet, you won't do anything, you'll just sit about worrying?

 

It's almost like you are taking some sadustic pleasure in putting yourself through this. Why? What does he have to offer that could possibly be worth any of this?

 

Have a bit of respect for yourself and leave him.

[boltnrun]

Do you want to prove you can "win" over that other woman since you feel she did you dirty years ago?

[Batya33]

So it's not about finding proof. Either you trust him or you don't - if you truly think you are an irrational person who doesn't trust anyone no matter what then sure, get help for that -that is on you. But that's not this. You don't trust him because he's shown you in various ways he cannot be trusted.

 

It doesn't matter if he calls it cheating or whether it's technically cheating -if he told her he was only dating her and he was also dating you then he's lying to her -who cares if it's "cheating" -it's being dishonest. It's fine to date many people at once as long as everyone knows that is the situation.

 

It's also fine if he doesn't like needy/clingy but again it's subjective. Does that mean that if he says he is going to call you and doesn't it would be "needy" of you to ask him what happened?

 

"yet I didn't listen to my own advice" - it's because the benefits outweighed the risks to you at that time. Do they now?

[IAmFCA]

 

 

This book has some concrete suggestions that may help.

[dias]

I knew the downside of my choice even before I started the relationship with him...I remember telling my girlfriend that I would never trust him if I was in a relationship with him...yet I didn't listen to my own advice.

He did tell me many times that he believes cheating is wrong...but the thing is, he doesn't believe he cheated on his ex because according to him, they were pretty much just fwb by the time we crossed paths again, they were barely seeing each other, had nothing in common anymore, etc. So he simply refuses to call what he did cheating, but to me it was, as he was still being intimate with her and I have a feeling that he was seeing her more than he ever admitted to me. But again...do I have any proof? No.

 

I can't ask him to keep in contact daily, so far he's done it because it was his own choice, but when he doesn't, of course I don't want to be the needy girlfriend who asks "but why didn't you call me last night?". He hates needy, clingy, he hates being questioned - and I can't blame him, I wouldn't like it if he did it to me either. But like you said, my reaction is common sense. Although, I have my own issues and tend to be paranoid, sometimes with no reason. Sometimes I feel like I am losing my mind lol.

Well if they were indeed fwb at the time, then yes, he didn't cheat. This why they are called open relationships ...?

 

Your logic says that you have to sever yourself from this person but you heart says otherwise. And you followed your heart.(I like you, it's nice to know that there are people who follow their heart)

 

So, you either accept him as he is and live with a constant "fear" but also having the good stuff(you like his company) or you continue your life without him.

[DancingFool]

First of all, you can never believe anything that a cheater tells you about any other woman in his life. Lying is a way of life for cheaters, as are convincing sounding excuses. Some might even be very good, as he has polished them with lots of practice so that you and other women will swallow the truckloads of bull manure like it's chocolate.

 

You already have all the proof in world. He cheated on you, now he is cheating with you and he will absolutely cheat on you again. I don't even understand the fear part, because him cheating is not a question of if, but just a matter of when. You already know this is who he is and this is what he does. If he is so amazing to you, then frankly, you either accept that there will always be other women he is sneaking around with and turn a blind eye to it or just have an open relationship. Of course, he might not agree to an actual open relationship because that would take the adrenaline rush he gets from lying and sneaking around out of the equation. So really open relationships don't actually work with cheaters. For them, there is more to this than just f king someone else. There is also that insidious factor of lying to your face and knowing what they are doing to you, a sick power trip, a rush.

[greta96]

I was going to say this is only going to end in disaster, but it is already one of those, so I don't think a lot is going to change.

 

Ultimately, you have gone into a relationship with a dog and you hope he will magically transform into a cabbage. The reality is that under all the leaves you have stapled to him, he will always be a dog. Cryptic, I know, but I had fun writing that.

 

You have entered a relationship with someone you can't trust, and now you are paranoid of him cheating? Yet, you won't do anything, you'll just sit about worrying?

 

It's almost like you are taking some sadustic pleasure in putting yourself through this. Why? What does he have to offer that could possibly be worth any of this?

 

Have a bit of respect for yourself and leave him.

 

This may sound odd, but when we are together it's always amazing, time flies, I am having such a good time it's unreal. Not as in ha ha ha fun, but we never run out of stuff to talk about, we both like the same things, think the same way about life, I can honestly say he feels like my other half - a feeling I never had with any of the guys I ever dated, and there have been quite a lot. Including my ex husband. It's not just me being infatuated, we really do match on a deep level.

So you can see why I'm torn. I know I will never meet someone I connect with like I do with him, even when things were at their worst, years ago after we broke up and weren't talking, I still missed his company and the conversations I used to have with him, and nobody measured up to that connection. Losing him would be a big deal, not the usual break up with some random guy I happened to date. This is why I am sticking with it and hoping that maybe he's not doing anything bad, he might just be afraid to tell me he's doing anything other than work and stay home because he may have been given grief over it by his exes.

 

If this relationship didn't stand out from all the others I've ever had, I would probably not deal with it. But because it's special to me, I feel like I would regret it if I ended it based on suspicions. Now if I had proof, yes I would end it in a heartbeat...

[greta96]

Do you want to prove you can "win" over that other woman since you feel she did you dirty years ago?

 

No, I don't care enough about her to even want to prove anything...to me she is just trash.

I genuinely think him and I are a good match, while him and her were anything but, from what I heard.

[greta96]

"yet I didn't listen to my own advice" - it's because the benefits outweighed the risks to you at that time. Do they now?

 

IF he's not doing anything wrong, then the answer is yes, the benefits do outweigh the risks. But if he's seeing someone else while telling me we are exclusive, then of course not... because both my heart and my health would be at risk. This is why I keep saying I need proof, suspicions are simply not enough. And unfortunately I do have my own major trust issues (with good reasons though, in his case, based on the past).

[greta96]

So, you either accept him as he is and live with a constant "fear" but also having the good stuff(you like his company) or you continue your life without him.

 

This is what I'm trying to do... because realistically there is no other option. It's so not easy though...

[greta96]

You already have all the proof in world. He cheated on you, now he is cheating with you and he will absolutely cheat on you again. I don't even understand the fear part, because him cheating is not a question of if, but just a matter of when. You already know this is who he is and this is what he does. If he is so amazing to you, then frankly, you either accept that there will always be other women he is sneaking around with and turn a blind eye to it or just have an open relationship. Of course, he might not agree to an actual open relationship because that would take the adrenaline rush he gets from lying and sneaking around out of the equation. So really open relationships don't actually work with cheaters. For them, there is more to this than just f king someone else. There is also that insidious factor of lying to your face and knowing what they are doing to you, a sick power trip, a rush.

 

This is exactly why I'm always worried... if you heard him talk about cheating and trust and loyalty, you'd think he was a monk! He is so extremely believable, and I'm not exactly a gullible person. And yet I witnessed his cheating with my own eyes, and I still call it cheating because even if our relationship was cooling off, I would still want him to break up with me before dating and kissing someone else. So the fact that he didn't break up with her for so many months and was dating both just doesn't sit well with me. He knows this.

So on one hand I have a guy who's treating me well, who keeps in touch often and who is seemingly a great boyfriend, and on the other hand I know his history, and there are still these pesky little lies that I have to wonder what they hide.

[Keyman]

I know I will never meet someone I connect with like I do with him, even when things were at their worst, years ago after we broke up and weren't talking, I still missed his company and the conversations I used to have with him, and nobody measured up to that connection.

 

How do you know? From the short time you were apart?

 

So, better to stick with the dirty dog than to allow yourself to meet the prince? It sounds a bit like an addiction, you're amazing when you are smoking the crack, but when you can't get any you go all psycho. Personally I'd rather live alone forever than live with the paranoia mistrust and worrying.

[MissCanuck]

You would be very foolish to trust this guy.

 

He is a liar and cheat. You know that. It doesn't outweigh a good connection, because how great can your connection really be when you can't be emotionally vulnerable and trusting of your own partner?

 

So, unfortunately, this is what you signed up for. A relationship with someone you don't trust (and rightfully so, he's not trustworthy) is exactly what you're experiencing: nagging suspicions, doubts, anxiety, worry. That's the name of the game when you decide to make a cheater your boyfriend, OP.

[IAmFCA]

OP

TL;DR:

- Get what you want. If this doesn't work for you, leave it.

- Enjoy the moments, and forget about building towards a future.]

- Do you want a bf as much as you think you do? Why?

- Is he cheating? Taking alone time? At this moment, does it matter? If it does, do you want to control him, accept him, or leave him?

 

I wrote a lot so bolded some points.

------

 

My own background--- about which I could write a sexy and dramatic screenplay but I have on desire to relive it --

In 2010 - 2014 I was involved in two relationships that were defined by several common characteristics. These relationships were similar to the way yours sounds (note: TWO relationships; it is not a singular experience though it seems it is). The traits in common that I want to focus on here are (1) unparalleled connection, (2) physical/sexual compatibility, (3) a shared sense of adventure, or endless possibilities, and (4) future ideation. Together, this is an intoxicating blend that makes a future together seem almost childlike, as if we could handle everything with the feeling of running around a playground, perhaps.

 

I remain connected to the first, I am repulsed by the second. Before them, I had married and divorced a man who falls into this broad category as well.

 

All three of these men: (1) lie, in different ways. Their methods and motivations may matter to some and not to others. (2) Accept and choose women who will exert some level of control and oversight over their behavior. (3) Behave in ways counter to their SOs requirements. At least two of the three continue to have sexual encounters with others and outside the relationship's terms; a third lies about money matters and may/may not have sexual encounters (I don't know).

 

From a psychological perspective, all have a fundamental insecurity leftover from childhood conflicts, such that they desire a deep attachment and fear it, at the same time. Their behavior keeps them on the edge of being fully compliant with their relationships, and assures them that they will never be alone.

 

Guess what: if my men had this trait, then so did I. We attract who we are. So I looked inside, and yup, there it was.

 

To make it work, you have to accept not knowing. Or pretend you know, by reviewing all phone bills, receipts, tracking mileage and turnaround times, etc. My exH accepts this kind of oversight from his W, whom he met while still married to me. After about 10 years and one child, she seems to be relaxing -- but then, he still stays out of town 50% of the time. She still she reads his invoices as well as his communications by email and text.

 

---

 

It may be helpful to acknowledge that some of us choose men who remain out of reach. It can be stimulating, and likely occurs because you are out of reach as well, in some way.

Our attachment was the result of us each using the other to fill needs that we had not yet learned how to fill ourselves.

Acknowledge that you don't want a bf the way you think you do, and that will allow you to let go of him a bit. See if that helps. (You might end up with a a bf anyway; if it happens and feels good, then why not?)

[greta96]

"It may be helpful to acknowledge that some of us choose men who remain out of reach. It can be stimulating, and likely occurs because you are out of reach as well, in some way.

Our attachment was the result of us each using the other to fill needs that we had not yet learned how to fill ourselves.

Acknowledge that you don't want a bf the way you think you do, and that will allow you to let go of him a bit. See if that helps. (You might end up with a a bf anyway; if it happens and feels good, then why not?) "

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective, there is so much truth to what you wrote!

I think you're right, I do choose men who are just out of reach and I'm pretty sure it's because I am just out of reach myself. For reasons I won't get into here, I am not looking for a conventional relationship - aka move in together, get married, kids, etc. This guy isn't looking for it either, in fact I have known for many years that he doesn't even want to move in with anyone, he's used to being on his own and wants to keep it that way. Works for me (unless things change for either one of us in the future).

The one thing I do want to have in the traditional way is loyalty and honesty, and this is what I don't think I'm getting with him. His fibs may be hiding things that I couldn't care less about (that he just didn't feel like chatting one night, or that he went out for a drink with his male friends) or things that would be a deal breaker (another woman/women). That's my issue. So I guess I have to weigh the pros (his company and good times we share together) and the cons (the increased risk for STDs, the risk of heartbreak, etc) and see what's more important.

Because I don't want a traditional relationship, the odds of me finding suitable men that I also like are slim. At least with him I know I like everything else about him, and he is ok with my situation as it is; other nicer men may not be.

 

I just wish he was more forthcoming and gave up on the lies

[Honeycomb8]

He won't though, he's innately just a pathological liar.

It's like expecting a fish to survive away from water.

The lies and deceit is what keeps them alive.

You're 39, I'd think right now you'd be at an age where you wouldn't want to waste time on people like this? A connection is nothing if they cheat.

[browneyedgirl36]

That's what I'm afraid of.

 

And rightfully so. I get that you don't care about the woman's feelings, and no one can make you, but a problem I see here is that you're holding her responsible for "interfering with" your relationship with him in the past, but...the thing is, she couldn't "interfere" with anything unless he LET her, and it seems as though you're not holding him accountable for his behavior and instead putting it all on her (granted, she didn't behave well, but she wasn't the one in a relationship with you -- he was.)

 

You don't trust him simply because he's not trustworthy. If you're worried about him skipping calling you ONE night a week, and it sends your head to the darkest places, that is NOT a good sign. This is exactly how I felt about my ex -- if the pattern of communication was disrupted, I automatically went to "Oh, he must be spending time with someone else." I felt this way precisely because my ex was, in fact, VERY untrustworthy, and it was quite likely he was up to no good. Now, in my current relationship, if he didn't respond right away, or if he didn't text or call at a time he usually does, I wouldn't even bat an eye -- I'd just think he was working, or busy with his kids or something else -- it would never occur to me that he was messing with someone else. I have never, for a moment, felt insecure about where I stand with him. With my ex, I questioned it ALL the time, even when he was being "good."

 

You don't have to answer this here, but at least answer this for yourself: Why don't you think you deserve better than this? Why not take your chances with someone who doesn't cause you to question him and what he's doing when you're not around? Especially since you dated this guy in the past and it didn't work. Obviously, it's your choice, but...I've learned in my almost-47 years of life that if I'm doing what's right for myself, if I'm acting on behalf of myself and my best interest, I have no doubts, no questions -- I just KNOW I'm doing the right thing. If you have to question it, if it feels shaky, or tenuous, it's probably not right for you. Just some thoughts from someone who has been there.

[browneyedgirl36]

"It may be helpful to acknowledge that some of us choose men who remain out of reach. It can be stimulating, and likely occurs because you are out of reach as well, in some way.

Our attachment was the result of us each using the other to fill needs that we had not yet learned how to fill ourselves.

Acknowledge that you don't want a bf the way you think you do, and that will allow you to let go of him a bit. See if that helps. (You might end up with a a bf anyway; if it happens and feels good, then why not?) "

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective, there is so much truth to what you wrote!

I think you're right, I do choose men who are just out of reach and I'm pretty sure it's because I am just out of reach myself. For reasons I won't get into here, I am not looking for a conventional relationship - aka move in together, get married, kids, etc. This guy isn't looking for it either, in fact I have known for many years that he doesn't even want to move in with anyone, he's used to being on his own and wants to keep it that way. Works for me (unless things change for either one of us in the future).

The one thing I do want to have in the traditional way is loyalty and honesty, and this is what I don't think I'm getting with him. His fibs may be hiding things that I couldn't care less about (that he just didn't feel like chatting one night, or that he went out for a drink with his male friends) or things that would be a deal breaker (another woman/women). That's my issue. So I guess I have to weigh the pros (his company and good times we share together) and the cons (the increased risk for STDs, the risk of heartbreak, etc) and see what's more important.

Because I don't want a traditional relationship, the odds of me finding suitable men that I also like are slim. At least with him I know I like everything else about him, and he is ok with my situation as it is; other nicer men may not be.

 

I just wish he was more forthcoming and gave up on the lies

 

Please, please don't fall into the trap of "If only he were [fill in the blank]" or "If only he didn't [fill in the blank]." The fact is, he is who he is. He DOES lie. He HAS behaved in a sketchy way in the past. You either have to take people where they are, and be willing to accept whatever the consequences are -- lies, infidelity, whatever -- or leave them. You can't be with someone based on potential, on "If only's."

 

I agree with you that you choose men who are out of reach because you too may be out of reach. I was in the same position a few years back. My whole relationship with my ex, I think, a profoundly unavailable (emotionally and otherwise) person, stemmed from me being unavailable myself, though at the time I didn't realize it and had a heck of a time acknowledging and admitting it.