Agree or disagree: Nice guys finish last, but DO finish?

[Michael832]

I was reading a few articles about this and was curious myself based on people's personal experiences. Yes, I'm the "nice" guy, I treat women the way I like to be treated and the way that I treat everyone else. Yes, I'm that boring guy that doesn't really give off any interesting traits. I'm confident about myself, but honest and modest at the same time.

 

People have given me advice on changing my approaches to women, but quite honestly I'm more satisfied being single then forcing myself to act a certain way. I'm 21 so I have a long ways to go, but so far I've never had an official girlfriend. I've been in the friend zone quite a few times, sometimes so deep that I've just about drowned in it.

 

Back to my initial question, I was reading that the nice guys eventually DO finish and end up attracting girls later in life. Afterall, I just started a decent job and I'm doing pretty well so far. I'm the kind of guy who would stick to my vowes and not leave, put my wife and children first, work overtime to help meet any extra financial needs, etc.

 

It doesn't have to be true, but I was just wondering if it's fantasy or reality.

[glitterfingers]

I think in order to establish what this means, you have to be able to define "nice guy" from "bad guy" or "douche" or whatever. And if you're talking about a guy who has morals, is polite and kind to people etc, then no..it's not "nice guys finish last". It's "nice guys with confidence and a healthy self esteem finish first" and "nice guys who don't assert themselves never get what they want and need to blame women for that". Douche bags generally finish last because they're the last people to grow up and learn how to relate to other people in a healthy way - if they ever do.

 

Nice women want nice men, in the overwhelming majority of cases. People with insecurities or baggage tend to attract similarly insecure people or those with baggage. We are attracted to people who are like us. If a bad guy appears to be finishing first, it's only because the girls have issues of their own in terms of healthy relationship skills, boundaries, toxic mindsets etc.

 

I believe this dogma is just a way of saying "don't be too nice and never ask for what you want". That goes not just for dating but for any area of life and for both men and women (e.g. the workplace)

[Careerchoice]

Those articles are silly. If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting the same results. It's not like your love life going to magically change some day just because you're doing well at your job. Plenty of guys succeed with women even without a good job. Plenty of guys are very financially stable and never get any girls, or at least the ones they really want.

 

You should never force yourself to act differently, but if you learn something about how women think, through someone else's experiences or your own, and it makes sense to you, it should change the way you act without any effort on your part. The knowledge simply becomes a part of your being.

 

But most guys in your shoes resist learning about women because it destroys what you've been brainwashed into believing how women really are and your idealized view of male-female relationships, whatever form they may take. It's humbling to admit that you don't know what you're doing with women. It's even more humbling to take action to learn how to succeed with women. There's a lot of failure and pain involved. It's not for the timid or the meek.

[J Miracle]

Self proclaiming yourself as "boring" is the type of thinking that is repelling women from you.

 

If you really believe your boring, that means you must be bored with your life. Change that. Become what you believe is an interesting person, ie develop interests your passionate about, whatever those may be, and others will find you interesting. Women will find you interesting.

 

Dont bash yourself. And whatever reading material your consuming, throw it out.

[Clio]

There is nothing nice about being 'boring' and expecting others to read your mind instead of making clear your wishes. Personal growth and stepping out of your comfort zone /evolving/ trying new things is important. Staying in your comfort zone and expecting things to change on their own is lazy not 'nice'. You should not change just to accommodate other people but striving for personal growth and building self-esteem and self-confidence are important at any age.

[Matt3939]

I wouldn't worry you are 21. People at that age are looking for fun ect. So yes an attractive confident male will probably rack up the numbers. If you don't want the friend zone don't do it. Or at least don't go into it with the expectation that it will change. The being boring? I wouldn't worry about this either. All people who proclaim they do this and that are usually just normal people. Example all these activities on a dating profile. Then in a relationship they are tame. Good luck

[Sportster2005]

I was reading a few articles about this and was curious myself based on people's personal experiences. Yes, I'm the "nice" guy, I treat women the way I like to be treated and the way that I treat everyone else. Yes, I'm that boring guy that doesn't really give off any interesting traits. I'm confident about myself, but honest and modest at the same time.

 

People have given me advice on changing my approaches to women, but quite honestly I'm more satisfied being single then forcing myself to act a certain way. I'm 21 so I have a long ways to go, but so far I've never had an official girlfriend. I've been in the friend zone quite a few times, sometimes so deep that I've just about drowned in it.

 

Back to my initial question, I was reading that the nice guys eventually DO finish and end up attracting girls later in life. Afterall, I just started a decent job and I'm doing pretty well so far. I'm the kind of guy who would stick to my vowes and not leave, put my wife and children first, work overtime to help meet any extra financial needs, etc.

 

It doesn't have to be true, but I was just wondering if it's fantasy or reality.

 

Self described nice guys are usually doormats. Sorry, nothing personal but that has been my experience. Nice doesn't equate or translate into success with women. It's chivalrous, not nice, to open the car door for a woman. And you do it because you like to be chivalrous, not because you have an expectation it will 'work'. Same with generosity. If you're fundamentally generous, be so, but don't be more so because you're crushing on a woman. Fake generosity to impress a woman is one of those doormat behaviour that will turn off a woman. So will being overly agreeable. Stand your ground, firmly and politely. Like you would with anyone else. Don't put her on a pedestal.

 

You're supposed to be nice. You don't get special treatment or favour for being a nice guy. Don't expect rewards for being nice. Especially in dating. Men who think if they're nice enough they will eventually get rewarded are just plain wrong. Nice without being attractive won't get you anywhere. Being too nice is a turn off. And it's not just men. I've been with women who were too nice, ugh.

 

Change your game. Get off the nice thing. Concentrate on being yourself around women, not being so nice.

 

Women want men who are attractive to them. THEN they want them to be nice.

[Annia]

Are we talking about guys who are "nice" to get into a girl's pants and then get butthurt because it doesn't work and blame it on girls liking douches? Because that's not a "nice guy" to me. I'm not saying that was your question, but I felt like talking about this, because I've watched this happen countless times and I've even had "nice guys" being rude to me because their niceness didn't take them to their goal so they'd try to make me feel bad about it.

 

Being good is a matter of character and doing what you think is right and respecting your values, it's not about doing things for someone in order for them to like you.

[Michael832]

By boring I don't mean like actually being boring. I have some cool hobbies like working on old cars and woodworking, but girls aren't into that stuff and that's not even where I was going with that anyway. As far as personality, guys in college and work usually love hanging around me because we joke around a lot and have some great conversations, people that don't know me well actually think I get a lot of ladies. One of my problems though is a lot of my guy conversations make girls hate me if I talk about the same things around them so I have to think of other things to try talking about. I guess that's a result of having all guy friends and not being friends with any girls until I was in high school .

 

But by boring though, I mean I'm just not one to make girls chase. I couldn't just ignore a girls phone call for two days, or ditch a girl one night. I guess that's what they like though

[Vicky89]

By boring I don't mean like actually being boring. I have some cool hobbies like working on old cars and woodworking, but girls aren't into that stuff and that's not even where I was going with that anyway. As far as personality, guys in college and work usually love hanging around me because we joke around a lot and have some great conversations, people that don't know me well actually think I get a lot of ladies. One of my problems though is a lot of my guy conversations make girls hate me if I talk about the same things around them so I have to think of other things to try talking about. I guess that's a result of having all guy friends and not being friends with any girls until I was in high school .

 

But by boring though, I mean I'm just not one to make girls chase. I couldn't just ignore a girls phone call for two days, or ditch a girl one night. I guess that's what they like though

 

I'm not aware of any girls that like to be ditched or not called back for days. You are misunderstanding women being attracted to what they perceive as a good looking guy, with, well he treats her like crap so she must like that.

 

For example, what type of women do you get sexually attracted to ? The sweet overweight, short, legs full of cellulite girl who treats you nicely, or the one with the banging body, long hair down to her waist, and a face to die for ? Chances are the better looking the woman is, the more stuck up she can be, so in your mind you say, why do I get ignored by women, when really, the question is, why do I get ignored by the women that I like ? Because am sure some ugly women like you, but you want caviar not Mcdonalds. Right ? Well, same with women, they want the good looking guy, not the fat short nice guy, the problem is that good looking people know they look good and guys that know they look good aren't all that faithful, aren't all that nice.

 

I'm generalizing some, but I find that to be the case a lot of times.

 

I know a guy that changed his luck with women JUST by working out ! He was already a nice person, but he was skinny, glasses, nerdy type, well, he had laser surgery to get rid of the glasses and he started working out at the gym, gained some serious muscle over the course of a year and now it's women that approach him, why ? Because when you look good other people notice it, and if you have a good personality or are easy to get along with, then you pretty much win the battle.

 

Stop sulking, am 100% sure you specifically look at a certain type of woman, so if you are picky with what you want, then you need to look your best to attract what you want. You just don't feel like putting in any effort and they should just like you for your personality, when you won't like a girl just because she's a nice person if she looks ugly and out of shape.

 

Women liking men that treat them badly is not true, it's just hard to find a hot guy with a nice personality and good morals, those two don't usually go together.

[Careerchoice]

But by boring though, I mean I'm just not one to make girls chase. I couldn't just ignore a girls phone call for two days, or ditch a girl one night. I guess that's what they like though

 

You don't know how to attract girls.

[glitterfingers]

By boring I don't mean like actually being boring. I have some cool hobbies like working on old cars and woodworking, but girls aren't into that stuff and that's not even where I was going with that anyway. As far as personality, guys in college and work usually love hanging around me because we joke around a lot and have some great conversations, people that don't know me well actually think I get a lot of ladies. One of my problems though is a lot of my guy conversations make girls hate me if I talk about the same things around them so I have to think of other things to try talking about. I guess that's a result of having all guy friends and not being friends with any girls until I was in high school .

 

But by boring though, I mean I'm just not one to make girls chase. I couldn't just ignore a girls phone call for two days, or ditch a girl one night. I guess that's what they like though

 

Yeah, noooooooo. No they don't like that. That's stupid, immature PUA talk right there. Don't you dare. There is so much sexism in those comments, I hope you are smart enough not to read those sorts of articles anymore or take them seriously. It's so wrong.

 

Be a gentleman. Girls love that. They love a guy who shows interest but not desperation, who treats them well but is busy with his own life and happy to fill up his time and divide it among different pursuits. Girls do not like being ignored or ditched. If you do that, they will never take you seriously because they will know you are playing games.

 

I found this youtube channel recently, watch some of the videos here - he's pretty decent:

 

 

What you just described is the passive aggressive behaviour of a guy who doesn't know how to handle women and treats them badly thinking it's how to get their way. You won't succeed doing that.

[Careerchoice]

Be a gentleman. Girls love that. They love a guy who shows interest but not desperation, who treats them well but is busy with his own life and happy to fill up his time and divide it among different pursuits.

 

No, a lot of guys do very well with women without being a gentleman. It's not necessary. Totally miss out on flirting which is an essential element. So is passing tests. Attracting women is a lot more complicated than just being nice to them and showing interest. That especially doesn't work well with more attractive girls since they get that all the time from guys.

 

Don't rip on PUA. A lot of it's very good. Branding any type of information as all good or all bad is small minded, especially when you haven't experienced very much of it. I've learned a lot from PUA and I'm no jerk.

[DancingFool]

By boring I don't mean like actually being boring. I have some cool hobbies like working on old cars and woodworking, but girls aren't into that stuff and that's not even where I was going with that anyway. As far as personality, guys in college and work usually love hanging around me because we joke around a lot and have some great conversations, people that don't know me well actually think I get a lot of ladies. One of my problems though is a lot of my guy conversations make girls hate me if I talk about the same things around them so I have to think of other things to try talking about. I guess that's a result of having all guy friends and not being friends with any girls until I was in high school .

 

But by boring though, I mean I'm just not one to make girls chase. I couldn't just ignore a girls phone call for two days, or ditch a girl one night. I guess that's what they like though

 

If you really believe the garbage in bold then you will be single for life. Get your head out of your rear, stop reading garbage online. Go to an antique car show and actually open your eyeballs and look around. Half the people there are WOMEN. I personally know several ladies who not only love cars but know how to wield a wrench and probably know more about what's under the hood than most mechanics. It's their passion.

 

As for the sense of humor and whether someone gets it or not, has NOTHING to do with gender. Some people will share your sense of humor and others will not.

 

Dude, you need to drop the stereotyping garbage in your brain. All you are doing is limiting yourself and when you pretend to be someone else because you believe that no girl will like you as you are and you must act different, you just come across as disingenuous and people will stay away from that. That doesn't make you nice, it makes you fake and nobody likes fakes unless they are fakes themselves that is.

 

Don't try to change yourself to please random chics. If they don't get your humor, they aren't compatible. If they think cars are yuck, they aren't compatible. Success in dating is finding a person you actually click with and that involves having a shared send of humor, getting each other almost instinctively, sharing at least some interests and hobbies together, etc. Anything less and you are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole and of course you will fail.

[Annia]

Yeah, find women who are compatible with your interests by going to events or meet ups related to that and by talking about your hobbies without being afraid of what they think. The most interesting people are the ones who are always themselves around others and then based on that pick the ones they want to keep close. If you go there with a defeated and limited mentality, they'll sense that.

 

Also, people weather men or women sense when a person is trying to be something they're not just to please them and they sense it as weakness and neediness. Imagine that a girl you barely know was hitting on you by pretending to like the same stuff you do and pretending to be like you and having your sense of humor. You could feel flattered at first, but would you really respect this girl that has so little personality and self esteem that she has to put on a mask to attract men?

 

People know intuitively if you're being yourself or not and even if they're not into the same things that you do or even if they end up deciding that you're not the person for them, they'll at least respect you.

[glitterfingers]

No, a lot of guys do very well with women without being a gentleman. It's not necessary. Totally miss out on flirting which is an essential element. So is passing tests. Attracting women is a lot more complicated than just being nice to them and showing interest. That especially doesn't work well with more attractive girls since they get that all the time from guys.

 

Don't rip on PUA. A lot of it's very good. Branding any type of information as all good or all bad is small minded, especially when you haven't experienced very much of it. I've learned a lot from PUA and I'm no jerk.

 

I have to concede that maybe you are right in some situations. Certainly, the women that I associate with (attractive, intelligent and educated) place a huge emphasis on interpersonal skills and integrity. I need only look at their partners to know that being a gentleman (respectful with both her and any company they are talking to, manners, thoughtfulness, depth etc) is important. But in saying that, I don't think you should presume that by gentleman I mean they go out of their way to tend to her needs. You can be a 'gentleman' and still be strong, grounded and assertive.

 

PUA has some really harmful elements, like negging and sideways compliments. I don't care if it works on some women, it's not the kind of stuff that lands you a healthy long term relationship. There may be some aspects of it which are helpful in terms of building/framing a certain 'masculine mindset'

 

I also don't see how flirting and maturity of the kind that I talk of above are mutually exclusive. Perhaps you have read your own interpretation into what I've said. My gentleman comment was in response to his statements about women enjoying you ignoring their calls for two days and ditching her

[thealchemist]

I hear a lot of guys who claim to be nice guys. Rarely does it overlap with my definition. I've seen "nice guys" that are that way until they see that it won't get them laid. I've seen "nice guys" that treat women the way they do because they have an idea of how women should be treated that is based on sexist crap. The biggest category of "nice guys" I see wouldn't even be a nice guy if they got attention from women.

 

I wouldn't open a car door for my wife unless she needed help. I think chivalry is a sexist archaic institution. That doesn't make me a bad guy. There are guys that are good in relationships and bad. However, nice is such a subjective term.

 

If you want a women that shares your hobbies then do social events centered on your hobbies. I love outdoor activities and video games. In some sexist viewpoints one might assume that these are "guy" hobbies and I wouldn't find a suitable girl that likes them. I however am married to one.

 

My advice is cut the about being a "nice guy" and just be yourself. Nice guys do finish last because people that subscribe to such viewpoints are missing the big picture.

[IAmFCA]

I am huge fan of chivalry, because I find it charming. The point of manners is to help us make one another comfortable, so I will hold the door for a man just as easily (for example). I don't think manners = nice.

 

I think nice often is coexistent with responsible. If I want a man to call me, and he doesn't, it is quite possible he is doing the nicest thing possible. If he is not interested, then withdrawing may displease me but in fact be the kindest choice.

 

And yes, I just slipped from nice into kind.

 

Nice that is simply an act of pleasing others is often irresponsible and not nice at all, leaving others to make the hard choices.

 

I will take responsible over nice any day of the week.

 

Whether someone is chivalrous is secondary, sort of like whether their shirt is well pressed. Whatever. If they mean to look out for others in meaningful ways - and at no harm to themselves, then that is who I want around me at work, personally and otherwise.

[DancingFool]

I will also add that even if I'm not into whatever the guy is into, talking to someone who is burning with passion about it, who will speak with enthusiasm is really kind of sexy. It's most definitely attractive, engaging and their positive glowing energy is quite infectious. This goes for both sexes.

 

However, if you ask a guy about his hobbies and you get some kind of a mumbled "oh you wouldn't be interested" or just some watered down blah version where it feels like you are pulling teeth.....I mean yeah, it isn't interesting because you made it painful to the listener. Talking to someone who is so insecure and second guessing your interest is a bit like having a root canal. An experience you'll avoid in the future. Unfortunately, this often turns into a "see I was right you won't be interested".....except that it's not about that, it's that you've made it painful and punitive.

[LaHermes]

Aaahh yes, nice and good. Not at all the same thing.

 

"The Nice and the Good" by Iris Murdoch, sets out these contrasts in brilliant style.

 

One reviewer remarks:

 

As its title suggests, one of the themes of the novel is the distinction between being nice and being good. Ironically, even though the setting of the story is so quintessentially English, this particular theme is an especially important lesson for us Americans to learn. Someone once said that the true religions of the American people are optimism and denial. We so often confuse being “positive,” “nonjudgmental,” “easy to get along with” – in a word, “nice” – with being a good person. But the two are not in any way the same. Kate is very nice, but that niceness has an intrinsic element of falsity. Ducane says, “Her idea is that our relationship is to be simple and sunny, and simple and sunny I must faithfully make it to be” (138). Good people, in contrast, are sometimes gruff, sometimes blunt, sometimes cruel in order to be kind.

 

So, "nice" can simply be a veneer, and all too often it is, to hide a most unpleasant and predatory interior.

 

Good people, on the other hand, are not going to "put it on", and what you see is generally what you get.

[Annia]

I will also add that even if I'm not into whatever the guy is into, talking to someone who is burning with passion about it, who will speak with enthusiasm is really kind of sexy. It's most definitely attractive, engaging and their positive glowing energy is quite infectious. This goes for both sexes.

 

However, if you ask a guy about his hobbies and you get some kind of a mumbled "oh you wouldn't be interested" or just some watered down blah version where it feels like you are pulling teeth.....I mean yeah, it isn't interesting because you made it painful to the listener. Talking to someone who is so insecure and second guessing your interest is a bit like having a root canal. An experience you'll avoid in the future. Unfortunately, this often turns into a "see I was right you won't be interested".....except that it's not about that, it's that you've made it painful and punitive.

 

I agree with this. I love meeting people who have hobbies that I don't know much about or I never tried them. I find it interesting and I like listening to people talking passionately about what they like. It's enrichning. It's great having people around us who share the same hobbies and interests but it's also very good to have people who are different (but compatible) around us because we can learn so much with them and get to know different things out of our comfort zone.

 

I also get a bit "meh" and put off when someone assumes right away "oh, you wouldn't be interested", "oh, you wouldn't like this" right away.

[mustlovedogs]

I like nice, slightly nerdy guys who are passionate about their own things and open to trying things I like.

 

A restored truck would be awesome to me.

 

But as Vicky (somewhat rudely) put it: I am one of those nicer, plus sized girls. No, no cellulite. But I'm not stereotypically hot.

 

I don't want a boring guy who can't carry a conversation or make interesting plans or go adventuring. But how you describe yourself is what I want.

 

The point is. We exist. Just look a little.

[IAmFCA]

I didnt know how to address Michaels post. The truck vs new... well ive dated two men who didnt even own a cat, so i obvi dont care.

 

The language about women- that is disrespectful and rude and of course women don't want to hear that. We're not consumables, like ice cream or pizza.

 

So if that is normal commentary, im confused - what is nice about that and does it strike you as odd that some conversation is appropriate only for certain audiences?

 

I'm not sure what you were getting at.

[Michael832]

I was just making a point that the conversations I have with groups of guys don't all apply to women. But yes, that's only a small part of what we talk about, but we do bust balls a lot

[IAmFCA]

I was just making a point that the conversations I have with groups of guys don't all apply to women. But yes, that's only a small part of what we talk about, but we do bust balls a lot

 

Some guys dont like that jive back and forth

 

Some women don't like it either, or maybe only from certain friends

 

Some men like it

 

Some women like it

 

I like it but only if I trust you and if we call it something else because I don't have the same parts you've got.

 

Some men with talk smack with me for fun and then place me one rung down on the totem pole for somehow being less respectable. How can Itrust you ig you would invite me to behave in a way that invites you to reduce your resoect for me? That isn't what friends do. I now am much more thoughtful how I interact with men. I do not wish to be judged for doing the same thing they're doing..

 

It is real, the way women are subject by some to a narrow intersection of acceptable behaviors. So we learn to adapt and/or ignore. And that results in women behaving as you describe.

 

For example, my male friend thinks I need to upgrade my car, that if I don't, men won't understand how to treat me well. Some woman hears that and chooses to change her behavior... its just, weird.

 

There is a woman out there for you. Make her feel special and she will stick around.