Husband is on Vacation with Another Woman

[AJ4]

This will probably be long, I really appreciate whoever takes the time to read and respond as I would love some unbiased opinions aside from those of friends.

 

I have been married for 5.5 years and I have 2.5 year old and I am also 35.5 weeks pregnant. I have always trusted my husband and I have always been very flexible in allowing him to basically do whatever he wants (traveling alone, going to concerts alone, going to bars alone when I cannot go because of inability to find a babysitter or expense). I've never thought anything of it and he does have several female friends who I know well and who I trust and also have friendships with. About 5-6 months ago my husband saw his old high school flame at a winery and started talking to her again. She's also married but is going through a nasty divorce and has three children of her own. From day one he repeatedly said "just so you know I am talking to her but NOTHING is going on." It was almost like he made this weird attempt to make it less suspicious - something he's never done with his other female friends. From day one I was totally uncomfortable with them talking but didn't really care because it was just over Facebook. Well, one thing my husband does a couple of times a year is he takes a small vacation to Vermont (we also go to Vermont as a family two times per year but because of cost I can't always go with our daughter and it will get more expensive when our son is born). I don't mind these trips as I do believe couples need time apart as well as their own hobbies and interests to flourish as individuals and not stifle the relationship. He said he needed this trip to clear his mind before the baby is born so of course I said yes with no second thought.

 

Yesterday he texted me and said "we" are heading out to a brewery so texting will be limited. I asked him who is "we"? He said this other woman he had been talking to came up with him (they even drove in the same car - HIS car) and they are staying in a suite together and that he thought I wouldn't mind?! Holy , I consider myself a reasonable person and have only cried twice in the last two years but I basically told him not to bother coming back to the house because I would not be there and would take our daughter to my dad's house until we could settle a plan and figure out the next steps for separating. Honestly I really wanted to divorce him 100% in that moment. The fact that he never considered how I would feel, the fact that he hid that she was coming, the fact that I didn't join him for the trip because of expenses but then he pays travel expenses for her...and not to mention I feel like Vermont is a "sacred place" it's where we honeymooned and where we take our family vacations and I am literally physically ill thinking about her doing all of those things with my husband while I am sat here alone with our daughter. He said he "didn't know I'd react this way" and kept saying how much he loves me and he we are "one unit" as a couple - and then what's worse is he threatened to kill himself if I leave which is really disgusting because my mom committed suicide in January of 2015 so I can't believe he would even go there after he knows how distraught her death made me - and for him to say he will "drive off of a cliff" if I leave and thus leave his children with no father is just horrifying and I know it's emotional abuse.

 

I basically told him exactly how I felt and how I now feel there is no room in my heart to trust him and I literally feel heartbroken. He kept reiterating that it is platonic and that he just wanted to do this "one nice thing" for her because of her messy divorce which is apparently "terrible." Well not to be a but it's none of my husband's business what's going on with her divorce! So I told him he chose her over me through this decision and now he's talking about how he should be punished and how he feels like he destroyed our marriage...well...I can at least say that I do feel our marriage has a huge knife in it now. I don't really even want to see him let alone talk to him about anything, spend time with him, touch him and now I don't even want to go back to Vermont even though we have a family trip planned there in March. I don't even really want to be in the car that she sat in for fourteen hours talking to my husband about God only knows what while I was sat alone. I am so hurt and disgusted I honestly don't know how I can carry on and get over this pain. I know counseling is probably the first option, but I'm not sure if he would agree to that.

 

I asked a few friends if they thought I was overreacting and the general consensus is not at all and that they would be gone over this scenario. I also don't know if I can believe him that it is platonic since this was/is an old high school flame. He keeps asking me "why would he want to throw away his marriage and the most important person in his life" ...well I don't know, why would he? Additionally he kept saying his greatest frustration in life is how often his job takes him away from his family - which holds NO water for me because HELLO if he feels that way then why did he abandon his family to spend time with this other woman? Now I am wondering if all the times he went to fill growlers of beer, went to go have a drink, went to shows involved this woman and he's just trying to gaslight me into believing him and moving on from this. I am totally stuck on what to do because I don't want my daughter to grow up without her father who she loves but I honestly feel so hurt right now I don't even want to see him.

 

Advice would be great and very much appreciated, or even just perspective. I can't even believe I have to deal with this 4.5 weeks out from having my second child. Thank you for listening/responding.

[Wiseman2]

Sorry to hear this. It doesn't sound like overreacting it sounds like boundaries married people have.

 

Unfortunately you seem to have erred on the side of do your own thing/cool wife too much and have been too uninvolved with socializing as a couple in favor of staying at home/ being supermom.

 

Translation: Honey, it's ok if I cheat, right?

I asked him who is "we"? He said this other woman he had been talking to came up with him and they are staying in a suite together and that he thought I wouldn't mind?!

[abitbroken]

If he takes all this trips and nights out alone because you can't find a babysitter or its too expensive for you both to go, unless its a family wedding of someone very close to your guys (you go alone to your cousin's wedding for example, he goes alone to his if you can't go because of the kids), then he should not go. You are a couple and you save up for you both to go. You needed to set that boundary long ago. Did you talk in the beginning about boundaries?

 

But what is happening now is not your doing. But now you have to stop the attitude of not caring where he goes because you trust him because he is untrustworthy.

 

He is not "gaslighting" you - he is lying to you. And you are enabling him because you have allowed him to go on all these trips alone in the spirit of time apart. He has time apart - he goes on business trips. He is away from you a ton. You are fooling yourself.

 

When he comes home, you arrange to have someone (a family member preferably) take your 2.5 year old for the evening or for the day and you have a one on one talk - perhaps you go out to dinner in a date light atmosphere so he is not automatically on the defensive. And you lay it all out. You get on the same page. And you both recommit to the marriage, or you don't. It may involve him giving up all of these solo vacations (heck, if he didn't take them, you could take one as a family one a year), it definitely involves him giving up going with other women, it may involve him having a 1-2 year plan of changing his job. It may involve you networking with relatives so having no babysitter is no longer an excuse.

[juanito]

Hi. I do not see a logical reason your husband would travel with another woman and leave his family home. I would suggest you begin looking out for yourself and your two children. The level of disrespect is way to high and now he is openly holding a relationship with a woman while you are at home tending to your children. I would say save yourself why you still can.

[zeino]

AJ4,

I'm very sorry about your mother's loss and what happened with your husband but I'm glad that you reached out. You are not overreacting to anything. It sounds like you are an easygoing, secure and rational person who for some reason ended with a selfish, immature, unempathetic person who is probably not even aware of this. Unfortunately, the world is full of such insanity and this man - if he is still asking you that question and believes his own explanations- is either obliviously insane or a cold-blooded maniac or a coward. In either case he has lost all his empathy. Some charming and nice men can just be like that. Please know that you are not alone.

 

My one piece of advice is never talk to him again for a period except for legal stuff, and that through your lawyers. If you need closure, you give it to yourself. There cannot be any more closure in this. We feel strongest in our earlier reactions but if we let them communiate with us, we get into the irrational and unempathetic web of their insanity and it is usually the saner partner who ends up as a mess after this kind of crazy stuff- rationality makes things harder. You really don't need this. Please come here and vent for as long as you have conflicting feelings but don't hand your power over to this person by talking to him other than informing him.

 

Just focus on yourself, your health and continue doing that. After the initial shock, many contradictory feelings may surface. Please know that all that will pass and you will emerge as a stronger, happier person. This man, however, may never develop the true empathy or understanding you may expect although he may hide this out of fear of losing you. It shouldn't be about losing you, it should be about what he does when he has you and what he did is beyond words really.

 

I'm all for marital counseling in general but with this type of person - denying and denying and utter lack of empathy- I just fear that marital counseling may help mask the real problems - his problems- and it may just waste your time. It helps with communication problems but his issues are beyond that. Of course his denial "what's wrong with it? Platonic. Why would I want to destroy my marriage" etc etc would not work with a therapist. That's exactly the moment when the therapist stares at the spouse for a longer moment. Then will come the confession. "I have been feeling in a rut for a bit, I don't know what took over me etc etc" Then you will work on communication and trust - and you will try to change certain things about yourself. Five years later, he may repeat the same. The fact that he is now talking about "punishment" shows how selfish and self-centred he is. It is still about him but in a reverse way. And it is quite passive aggressive perhaps. Adult life is not about "punishment" after you do things behind your spouse's back in a rather organized way, don't understand what's wrong (apparently) but still want to be punished for destroying something. Marital therapy cannot sort this out this makeup I'm afraid. Although it may address how he is thinking of you as if you were his mother or something.

 

Separate, live your life one day at a time. You probably will not be seeking another man's love as a new mother and are not escaping anywhere. If he is mature enough, he should respect this, still work on himself and share his findings with you. Then you start inquiring - is it credible growth or just surface words? If you decide that he is at a level where you can talk to him reasonably, then maybe marital therapy can help you to rebuild your life together again - he shouldn't drop his own therapy for a while though really. Extreme betrayal, wishes for punishment, extreme sorrow, all these need to be stabilized in an overall mature self I think. And only then you start asking yourself whether you want to try this again.

 

It is even worse if you are the most important person in his life, if this is the way he is able to treat his most important people, I hope he has no enemies really.

 

Stay strong!

[abitbroken]

I'm all for marital counseling in general but with this type of person - denying and denying and utter lack of empathy- I just fear that marital counseling may help mask the real problems

 

With children, they have an obligation to go to marital counseling. Also, because she has been permissive all along, speaking in front of a counselor may help facilitate discussion between the two of them. It might be that they come to some breakthroughs.

[boltnrun]

My best friend went through something similar with her (now ex) husband.

 

First, the denials. Then, accusations that she was crazy and inventing things. Then, once the proof was out, that it was innocent and platonic. Then, in counseling, the blaming. SHE was not attentive to his needs, SHE stopped having sex with him, SHE made him feel unwanted and unloved. When the reality was, HE stopped having sex with her because he had all his little chippies and HE wasn't giving her attention and HE was constantly leaving the family to go on allegedly solo trips (sound familiar??). He fought to keep the marriage only because he'd gone to see an attorney and was told it was "cheaper to keep her". He chose to stay in the marriage and just continue to have affairs. She chose differently, and divorced him.

 

Your children will not "lose" their father. Their relationship and time with him will be adjusted and changed, but he will not be "lost" to them. And when you start having those feelings, remember that HE chose for things to be this way, not you.

[DancingFool]

While I completely agree with you that couples need "me" time, unfortunately, I think you took that to an extreme, took the whole "I'm cool with whatever" way too far and failed to established any boundaries and rules at all in your relationship. In effect, you turned yourself into a martyr for your husband's comfort and convenience. The result is the scenario you are facing now.

 

I am not going to jump on the divorce him bandwagon simply because you are married with kids and I do believe that when you are married, the relationship does require more salvage effort than just "looks bad, dump him".

 

Basically, he needs to be driving his azz home alone, she can make her way back however the heck she wants. You need to send the child to the parents for a bit and you and him need to have very serious conversations about behavior and boundaries. YOU need to rethink your cool with everything wife facade. It appears that you are not so cool with everything after all. Consider also couples counseling and individual counseling for yourself. You have definitely taken the time alone concept too far. As someone else pointed out, if you can't afford to travel as a family, you don't go. However, a lot of the issues you have willingly allowed and endorsed, so you can't put this on your husband alone.

 

I'd have a different stance if you weren't such a cool with whatever wife. If you had boundaries and he pulled that kind of stuff, I'd be totally on board that there is nothing to think about other than which divorce lawyer to hire. However, I think you totally opened that Pandora's box and now you need to walk that back and reel things in.

[AJ4]

Thank you everyone. Zeino I feel like you know my husband based on your response. I also want to be clear that I don't consider myself to be anti-social and I still go to concerts, bars, restaurants and we go on trips - I just don't do as much as he does because I don't have an income and I like to keep our finances balanced so I have to pick and choose more than he does - and it's been that way for a long time with what I thought was respect and understanding. He just keeps reiterating that he thought I was OK with it, that it's platonic and now because he thought I'd be OK with it "he has to pay for it" "he has to suffer for it" "he has to live with it." Like you said Zeino it is very self-centered and not a mature response. My husband has a lot of issues of immaturity but has always been a good father to our daughter and generally I have NEVER felt distrust or betrayal, this is really the main instance in our marriage where I felt directly betrayed and I feel like he isn't allowing me to "own" my emotions and keeps centering it back onto himself even after I explain why I am upset in a very clear and rational way.

 

I have been trying to sort of get him to admit that he has been feeling in a rut because I KNOW he has. I mean, it's stressful having a toddler with another baby on the way and I feel the stress of that a lot too. I feel like he's avoiding being open in favor of being able to just be self-loathing in an attempt to probably get me to feel bad for him and move on from my own feelings, and I recognize that. Maybe I have been too "relaxed" about allowing him to do whatever he wants, I just believe in a lot of independence in relationships of course with boundaries but normally he always asks before he does something and trust me, if he had asked about this the boundaries would have been broken and I would have said NO and all of this could have been avoided - though I am sure if I had said no he would have agreed and then been self-loathing again and resentful that I said no to him for once.

 

I'm not sure where I will go from here. I am open to counseling but only if I feel like he will be open and will not deflect the entire time. I don't really want to get divorced because we do have a lot of common ground and I do value our marriage and I feel like he's an excellent father to our daughter and she adores him. I just don't want my pain to be given a lack of legitimacy and I probably do need help on setting boundaries. I don't think he physically cheated but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an emotional affair there especially because the woman in question is going through a very bad divorce and I wouldn't find it surprising that she would be trying to attach herself to another man for solace and comfort.

 

I know I have to be rational without being naive and that's what I'm struggling with the most. I really appreciate all of the responses so far - they really have helped my perspective on everything and I know there is some accountability there with me as well not setting firm enough boundaries.

[AJ4]

While I completely agree with you that couples need "me" time, unfortunately, I think you took that to an extreme, took the whole "I'm cool with whatever" way too far and failed to established any boundaries and rules at all in your relationship. In effect, you turned yourself into a martyr for your husband's comfort and convenience. The result is the scenario you are facing now.

 

I am not going to jump on the divorce him bandwagon simply because you are married with kids and I do believe that when you are married, the relationship does require more salvage effort than just "looks bad, dump him".

 

Basically, he needs to be driving his azz home alone, she can make her way back however the heck she wants. You need to send the child to the parents for a bit and you and him need to have very serious conversations about behavior and boundaries. YOU need to rethink your cool with everything wife facade. It appears that you are not so cool with everything after all. Consider also couples counseling and individual counseling for yourself. You have definitely taken the time alone concept too far. As someone else pointed out, if you can't afford to travel as a family, you don't go. However, a lot of the issues you have willingly allowed and endorsed, so you can't put this on your husband alone.

 

I'd have a different stance if you weren't such a cool with whatever wife. If you had boundaries and he pulled that kind of stuff, I'd be totally on board that there is nothing to think about other than which divorce lawyer to hire. However, I think you totally opened that Pandora's box and now you need to walk that back and reel things in.

 

I realize that - I think because he's always been 100% clear about his plans it never bothered me. Maybe that did create an image of me being OK with anything even if it wasn't my intention. I never felt a need or desire to say no to him going to a concert, or out for a drink or on a trip for a few days - but maybe I should have created boundaries there and it would have prevented this. I admit I definitely have been too complacent in the whole "time alone" thing and I know a marriage probably can't survive on that complacency.

[zeino]

I'm all for marital counseling in general but with this type of person - denying and denying and utter lack of empathy- I just fear that marital counseling may help mask the real problems

 

With children, they have an obligation to go to marital counseling. Also, because she has been permissive all along, speaking in front of a counselor may help facilitate discussion between the two of them. It might be that they come to some breakthroughs.

 

Do you mean court-ordered marital counselling as an obligation or an ethical obligation toward each other and their family?

 

Marital counselling would sure faciliate discussion between them but is there a limit in relationships where silence is the only useful way of speaking or should we always carry on communication and discovery? They would surely come to breakthroughs, he would express his dissatisfaction after a while and she would probably work diligently on bettering the relationship, which I interpret as a continuation of the passive, permissive role in a way. What can be achieved with his recent mindset in marital therapy? And why doesn't he work on himself first so that he comes to marital counselling with a more mature attitude?

 

Marital counselling may bring up a lot of issues and can trigger anger and a lot of feelings. The OP is about to give birth soon and a difficult phase of new motherhood is awaiting her already. Does she need marital counselling and its loaded emotional content during this period? Or seeing him and getting triggered and things like that?

 

These are the things passing through my mind.

[burlesquebeaut]

I realize that - I think because he's always been 100% clear about his plans it never bothered me. Maybe that did create an image of me being OK with anything even if it wasn't my intention. I never felt a need or desire to say no to him going to a concert, or out for a drink or on a trip for a few days - but maybe I should have created boundaries there and it would have prevented this. I admit I definitely have been too complacent in the whole "time alone" thing and I know a marriage probably can't survive on that complacency.

 

Don't blame yourself... even if you did create an image of being "cool" with most things, he KNEW that going on this trip with this woman was WRONG. There is a reason he didn't tell you these plans before he left. He lied by omission and slipped up with the 'we'. He wasn't up front with you about this trip because HE KNEW you would NOT BE OKAY with this. And now he's trying to turn it back on you.

[DancingFool]

I realize that - I think because he's always been 100% clear about his plans it never bothered me. Maybe that did create an image of me being OK with anything even if it wasn't my intention. I never felt a need or desire to say no to him going to a concert, or out for a drink or on a trip for a few days - but maybe I should have created boundaries there and it would have prevented this. I admit I definitely have been too complacent in the whole "time alone" thing and I know a marriage probably can't survive on that complacency.

 

It's not just that. It's not even about saying no regarding going to a concert, etc. Even what you mention of your financial arrangement. You talk about equality, but it's not really equal is it? Sounds more like two roommates rather than a married couple working together on their life, goals, vacation funds and destinations, etc. There is also a lot of resentment between the lines in your original post regarding you staying home so he can..... Well....maybe he shouldn't and you should have said so is my point. I kind of get the feeling that you weren't quite honest with yourself about many things either, more trying to be cool than genuinely happy and this situation kind of blew the lid off and forced a lot of stuff that's been brewing into the open.

 

It really sounds a like a very sweet, he gets to do whatever with few obligations, deal by your own arrangement. Of course, I'd anticipate resistance to any kind of change to that. So I hope that through counseling and perhaps even some separation time you both can turn a fresh page on your marriage.

[reinventmyself]

If he truly believed you'd be ok with the vacation away with his platonic friend then he would have been honest about it.

 

There was no reason to lie, especially in light of you being so permissive about such things.

 

His deceit gives himself away.

[j.man]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope

[catcountry]

If he truly believed you'd be ok with the vacation away with his platonic friend then he would have been honest about it.

 

There was no reason to lie, especially in light of you being so permissive about such things.

 

His deceit gives himself away.

 

This EXACTLY! My boyfriend ended his marriage over something similar. She went to visit a "friend" for the weekend.... turned out the friend was an old male flame. Trust was lost over her lies. No trust, no relationship. Oh, and she is now married to that "friend".

[juicyboy]

Did you let him go on this vacation?

 

DId you talk to him about your concerns?

[j.man]

This EXACTLY! My boyfriend ended his marriage over something similar. She went to visit a "friend" for the weekend.... turned out the friend was an old male flame. Trust was lost over her lies. No trust, no relationship. Oh, and she is now married to that "friend".

That's kinda my thinking. If my gal were to ever surprise me by letting me know she booked a suite with an old high school flame during her trip, she may as well go through a box of condoms because she flies back home because it right there.

 

Power to you if you're someone who would be willing to sit down and work it out after that, but nu-uh.

[annie24]

Reading your story, it almost sounds like the husband thinks he is in an open marriage, but you just found out. I agree that this is totally unacceptable and really wonder when/where this breakdown in communication occurred. He might have been cheating even prior to this incident.

 

Ugh I am really sorry about this. I agree with going to your parents' place and talking with a divorce lawyer about the next steps. Hang in there.

[Lisii]

I also agree with what the others have said, please go home to your parents, prove to him it's not acceptable.

 

Question: this old flame of his... is she aware he is married? and that you are pregnant with his second child? - People never cease to amaze me with their selfishness, I just don't get it.

 

This is wrong in so many levels, sorry.

[JaggerJim]

I really don't like it, when people act like their act of deceit is questionable. Like "I'm going away with this woman, but I hope your cool with it".

 

It's even worse when the person who has had the act of deceit thrust upon them, question themselves. Like "Should I be concerned about this?"

 

In a nutshell I can't stand people treating others in a way that confuses them.

[zeino]

Thank you everyone. Zeino I feel like you know my husband based on your response. I also want to be clear that I don't consider myself to be anti-social and I still go to concerts, bars, restaurants and we go on trips - I just don't do as much as he does because I don't have an income and I like to keep our finances balanced so I have to pick and choose more than he does - and it's been that way for a long time with what I thought was respect and understanding. He just keeps reiterating that he thought I was OK with it, that it's platonic and now because he thought I'd be OK with it "he has to pay for it" "he has to suffer for it" "he has to live with it." Like you said Zeino it is very self-centered and not a mature response. My husband has a lot of issues of immaturity but has always been a good father to our daughter and generally I have NEVER felt distrust or betrayal, this is really the main instance in our marriage where I felt directly betrayed and I feel like he isn't allowing me to "own" my emotions and keeps centering it back onto himself even after I explain why I am upset in a very clear and rational way.

 

I have been trying to sort of get him to admit that he has been feeling in a rut because I KNOW he has. I mean, it's stressful having a toddler with another baby on the way and I feel the stress of that a lot too. I feel like he's avoiding being open in favor of being able to just be self-loathing in an attempt to probably get me to feel bad for him and move on from my own feelings, and I recognize that. Maybe I have been too "relaxed" about allowing him to do whatever he wants, I just believe in a lot of independence in relationships of course with boundaries but normally he always asks before he does something and trust me, if he had asked about this the boundaries would have been broken and I would have said NO and all of this could have been avoided - though I am sure if I had said no he would have agreed and then been self-loathing again and resentful that I said no to him for once.

 

I'm not sure where I will go from here. I am open to counseling but only if I feel like he will be open and will not deflect the entire time. I don't really want to get divorced because we do have a lot of common ground and I do value our marriage and I feel like he's an excellent father to our daughter and she adores him. I just don't want my pain to be given a lack of legitimacy and I probably do need help on setting boundaries. I don't think he physically cheated but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an emotional affair there especially because the woman in question is going through a very bad divorce and I wouldn't find it surprising that she would be trying to attach herself to another man for solace and comfort.

 

I know I have to be rational without being naive and that's what I'm struggling with the most. I really appreciate all of the responses so far - they really have helped my perspective on everything and I know there is some accountability there with me as well not setting firm enough boundaries.

 

I'm happy that you feel heard here. People's opinion's may differ but when opposite views are read together, I think ENA is very good at clarifying different aspects of these situations.

 

But here, the most important thing at the moment is your own wellbeing. You said you wanted to divorce him then and there. How is your anger nowadays? If you are in the same space, do his presence or words trigger youor are you able to detach? Do you have good self-care strategies, which may be difficult with a baby in and a toddler at home but are even more necessary. You also say you have been trying to make him admit that he has been in a rut for a bit. When someone is in a rut and are not communicating clearly, this can have an effect on the other partner. You may have been feeling denied, ignored, shut out etc for a bit. If this is the case (which it doesn't have to be) would you be interested in looking at your feelings first to start practising better emotional self-care - if you haven't been doing it already of course?

 

When it comes to what happened with him, I don't think this is just about boundaries. Neither do I think it would be your fault or your lack of boundaries that brought the situation here. You could have a person with zero stated boundaries and even then this would not be your fault. It is because he did something that violated all ethics of a marriage (ethics of friendship, ethics of partnership)willfully and boundaries cannot help with that. This is because boundaries are not abot controlling another person's desires, wishes and behaviour but are about containing ourselves within our healthy self and limits. The other thing, stating consequences about what may happen is yes a method of attemtping to bring limits to behaviour, but does it matter so much if one's inner desires, choices etc are like this in this radical example.

 

I believe that boundaries in a marriage can work only with individuals with whom we share a common understanding of what "relating" and emotional intimacy are. If a partner is at a different level of understanding things for whatever reason, there is only so much boundaries can make. You don't need to state very clear boundaries not to get killed in your sleep, not to be hit with a spade when you are cooking, not to find your husband in bed with someone. And no, you don't sit down and clarify ahead or afterward that it is completely unacceptable for you that your husband takes a little trip with an old flame, secretly behind your back. You just assume that these will not happen. And so does he. What happens to this aspect of common shared understanding in your example? Why is this issue being treated like one of those things where a partner says "Oh, I had no idea you found the sound of my music so disturbing. I will make sure I use headphones next time." The reason is he is manipulating you with this. An innocently unaware person (although he would not be free of issues in terms of a satisfactory relationship for many people) would tell this ahead, then argue what is wrong or right with it ahead, before he ended up doing what he did. His secrecy shows well that he knows the boundary, doesn't want to agree with it sometimes but doesn't have the honesty or guts to bring it out in the open and he still does what he wants. It is not that he didn't know the boundary, he violated it - unless you and hypothetical therapist wish to treat him like a three year old. In my opinion, any inexperienced therapist who treats this as a communication and boundary problem the way your husband attempts to mask it will be contributing to your emotional oppression here. Proper marital therapy would start at a point when he is brought to admit that he knew this was wrong but still did it. That's when everyone is speaking honestly. That's when the real talk starts. If you choose to take therapy, please search for someone experienced in passive aggression, its victim mentality and self-centredness. Going back to boundaries, there is a common understanding or maybe the wisdom of ages that too much time apart paves the way for this kind of stuff and people comfortable with giving more freedom to a partner are called naive at some time. This describes the mainstream of human action but it doesn't mean that all couples having a lot of "me" time will end up in a mess like this. There are even people who choose to spend some time apart - one in a vacation home in the country perhaps, imagine a writer finishing their novel- and this kind of betrayal doesn't happen to them. Boundaries about night life etc has nothing to do with going to holidays with old flames and if one makes you think about the other and set a boundary - "ok, going to concerts is OK, going to holidays with old flames is not" that brings you down to the level of insecure, anxious person this kind of stuff may turn you into. Don't do that to yourself. You didn't do anything wrong. If you have been accepting other stuff because of a boundary problem, because you are not good voicing your needs or recognizing them etc, please tackle that separately but do not think it should translate into the dodgy stuff he did. They are not even related. The boundary about not going to secret vacations with old flames is there in every marriage from day one. You don't need to write it on a contract afterward, he knew it, violated it, and now pretends he didn't know. You don't state again, you now follow up with consequences. Don't worry about practising consequences. He should still want to be with you and agree to counselling if you want to. It is his issue that he feels punished, not yours. He needs to see what he is doing is wrong. It is not your duty to train him - otherwise, you are ensuring that all disasters may happen to you at least once - "I didn't know". It is also his own mental filter, this punishment thing. You don't need to respond, he needs to understand. That's why, best to leave this to a therapist even in a marital counselling setting. All the other explaining etc is assuming the role of the mother and he is probably creating it to revolt against it. When you own your hurt and act accordingly instead of working on bringing him to the good level you want, you start acting like equals. The unhealthy dynamic stops on your side.

 

Again, the problem is not only about deflection. He can stop it in therapy but why? To gain sympathy? To get out of the mess or because of a true desire to stop his unhealthy ways of responding? Behaviour change may happen out of fear but for proper change, it has to happen for the right reasons. HE needs to realize that this is wrong and HE must want to change it. Other than this, everything is the same, he will probably hear this as an unfair demand and will feel punished. And even when he genuinely voices this problem, it is probable that you will first need to practice listening without judgment etc etc to encourage him break the habit of a lifetime. In the meantime, he may surprise you with moments of maturity, emotional depth, confessions etc and this can shake your ground as well. Here boundaries, kind and loving but firm personal boundaries are important. You must improve the skill of showing him empathy and sympathy without giving up your needs. It's tricky. If you say "I understand, empathy statement, empathy statement BUT do you see..." he will hear the "but" bit and you will still be in the mother-son dynamic, you still in the teaching tone. If you ask what you can do to support him and then also voice what you need when he asks you back, it is good. If he doesn't ask this, he still hasn't developed reciprocity. You decide whether his level emotionally satisfies you. It will be a discovery.

 

You may discover many things about your husband. Despite non-chalance, he may be a people pleaser in the core, who has a terrible fear of making mistakes, and a deep seated insecurity. You may be surprised at how this is mixed with some kind of self-centredness and an entitled victim mentality. I think it is more beneficial and also critical that you focus more on understanding yourself at first and finding your needs. Not everything is about his boyish charm if he has it. At one point, you will need an adult, especially with your two kids.

 

If I know him I can say he will be a wonderful father to any child as a playmate, a source of joy and laughter and basic care even but unless he changes certain things, he can turn into the "favorite" parent who undermines all kinds of agreed parental discipline decisions. You know how you decide not to buy that pair of sneakers and then he secretly gives money to the child and you find the sneakers at your doorway, or the one who raises his eyebrows behind Mommy's back when she is angry.

 

Please remember that separation and marital therapy are not exclusive things. You can separate spaces if this situation is threatening your emotional wellbeing and still go to therapy or he is still responsible for standing by you during birth etc. Don't limit yourself to either/or things. Find out what really makes you comfortable, do that and let things follow from there. If you lose him, it proves that he is not ready to work on anything anyway.

 

Good luck with everything.

[AJ4]

I think the main issue for me is that the trust is gone. I don't necessarily think he's been physically cheating but I pretty much believe he's having an emotional affair - maybe with some physical aspects but I think this woman is more filling a void he feels he has and the fact that he just did this without any regard for myself or his child is really hard for me to get past. He suggested that I could read all of their Facebook conversations and then said "you know I could delete this whole conversation but I won't because it's nothing incriminating" - which got me thinking he must have been looking at deletion options or how would he know - and you can delete individual messages which is probably what he did for anything that would be a red flag. He also started talking about how through the years it was hard for him that I had a male friend (he has several female friends and I had one male friend that I talked to still because I had known him for 14 years he was like a brother to me) and I don't even talk to that friend anymore because my husband told me in August it made him really uncomfortable so I told him we shouldn't chat anymore...but the fact that he deflected and put me on the defensive sort of speaks volumes to me that he must have some sort of guilty conscience. I am not 100% sure what I'm doing next. Just thought I'd get those thoughts out.

[Lostandfound24]

I really don't think your husband has any business helping another woman out with her divorce problems. That is her issue that she can work out with the support of her own family or other friends. The only thing your husband should be concerned about is you and your family. As for the life threats, emotional abusers will say anything to keep you in the relationship.If you are planning to stay in the relationship then I think at this point couples counseling is a must. However, remember that they have to actually want the change in order to change. Boundaries need to be set and followed. If he doesn't want to go to counseling I still think it would be wise for you to go so you can work out all of the emotions you are feeling in a healthy way. I wish you the best.

[zeino]

I think the main issue for me is that the trust is gone. I don't necessarily think he's been physically cheating but I pretty much believe he's having an emotional affair - maybe with some physical aspects but I think this woman is more filling a void he feels he has and the fact that he just did this without any regard for myself or his child is really hard for me to get past. He suggested that I could read all of their Facebook conversations and then said "you know I could delete this whole conversation but I won't because it's nothing incriminating" - which got me thinking he must have been looking at deletion options or how would he know - and you can delete individual messages which is probably what he did for anything that would be a red flag. He also started talking about how through the years it was hard for him that I had a male friend (he has several female friends and I had one male friend that I talked to still because I had known him for 14 years he was like a brother to me) and I don't even talk to that friend anymore because my husband told me in August it made him really uncomfortable so I told him we shouldn't chat anymore...but the fact that he deflected and put me on the defensive sort of speaks volumes to me that he must have some sort of guilty conscience. I am not 100% sure what I'm doing next. Just thought I'd get those thoughts out.

 

This is so new, please know you don't have to do anything before you feel ready. You can suspend your judgments, your worries and try to exist in the moment getting closer to yourself. Eventually, what will save or break your marriage will not be how fast and efficiently you start solving this marital problem but your mutual understanding and effort to tolerate each other's differences in speed, the bumps you run into at different times etc - especially in the trust building stage.

 

It's absolutely normal not to know at this moment. And I understand your need to know why he is doing what. However, assuming a guilty conscience on his behalf, thinking about the void he has etc will not majorly help you, although they are certainly mature, understanding attitudes informed by the mind as much as the heart. At this point, it should be obvious to you that you are an understanding partner anyway but you cannot compensate for his lack of maturity - his now hitting under the belt with the new deflection- with your gifts. Otherwise, you would have been able to do this and never come to this point. It simply does not happen. You need to remove yourself from this irrational dynamic and act, instead of react.

 

Yes of course he had a void in him, unless he was kidnapped by this woman. Simply everyone involved in this kind of stuff does. The point is whether this resulted from your relationship dynamic, whether you feel motivated to try tackling this with him or this is inner generated - that is, due to his skewed perception of the world, he will have this void no matter what you do. In th meantime, your void is equally important and you are responsible for this part of the relationship as much as he is responsible for his part. Has everything been going OK for you or have you been experiencing dissatisfaction as well? This should not be ignored.

 

As for his guilty conscience, if you really want to know, he probably feels terrible at the moment. At the same time, he may be feeling very angry with you, too. And at the same time he may be wanting to go back to his marital peace and some things like "Jesus, when will this crap end?" may be passing his mind.

 

If you want to save your marriage, get out of the persecutor role in the Karpman triangle he has created - you are the actual victim but he sees you as the persecutor and the other woman as the rescuer now probably. Move in to the middle, have a bit of every role. For this, you need to sit down with yourself and see where you are hurt, where he is hurt and where you can rescue him and where he can rescue you. Then act accordingly, not fearing requesting anything.

 

In the normal flow of things, it is also probable that this woman may text him and he may be burning to say to her "Jeez, do you know what happened?"

 

I wouldn't immediately focus on this crap now if it happens, but look at the big picture and not do anything that brings them closer (as the victim and the rescuer.) This may strengthen the image in his eyes that you are the persecutor, he is the victim and of course the rescuer is obvious.

 

You can tell him what you have told to us, that you think he is a great father, a good friend with whom you share a lot but you are in shock right now and your trust has been affected. You can say that you first need to find your balance to act wisely without breaking hearts any further. And then think. If you want to rescue this, having a toxic house will not help if you have it. Declare truce, try to continue your life as normal, even go out to dinners etc if you can. This can help him see you in a less dangerous light. If you feel very angry, staying out of the shared space may be more beneficial in the long run but make sure that he understands you are not abandoning anything - in case he brings this up later. You are just trying to achieve balance to help both of you.

 

I would pick my fights wisely. You may feel the urge to know more about what was going on and actually, in terms of trust building, he needs to be 100% transparent for a bit now. However, without this common understanding built properly, he may still act from the vicitm more - "I did everything to make you comfortable but you are still x, y,z." Whatever they spoke about, they ended up on a holiday together and that hasn't changed. There is no end to policing. Instead you can say, if he says there is nothing "incriminating", there isn't. And you would feel more comfortable if you can speak from a friends perpective. You are not the persecutor, judge or the police. You are his friend and what he did broke your heart. Leave the rest to time until you find out what you want.

 

Take good care of yourself