If a guy used prostitutes, do you think less of him?

[jonny15]

I actually find it pretty odd myself. Why have you not amounted to anything (your words?). Because I've seen you post a lot about your life and how you aren't in school and aren't trying to go, don't have a job and aren't trying for one, don't have any burning interests, don't have a relationship, etc. And when you say why that is, i see excuses. You say you're fat, you're stupid, you're not cool or funny, you have a small penis, etc. All excuses. No responsibility.

 

I don't recall saying i'm not looking for a job. And i'm just not good with school work. I'm a rather slow learner. Stuff at the college level would be way over my head.

 

 

So yeah, I'm sorry, but I don't think you can condemn the actions of others and say it's their responsibility when someone could easily say the same for you.

 

Condemning actions? I'm not the one freaking out about the idea of someone being with a hooker, so I don't know how i'm the one condeming anyone.

[louisecar]

Comparing someone who is withholding sex because they are unhappy to a prostitute is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! And people who think "what good is the relationship" are the kind who see a partnership as solely being about regular sex. How sad that is all a relationship is worth to them.

I really don't know how anyone can be happy paying for it. I would feel pathetic I couldn't get it without handing over cash but I suppose that's up to them.

[sleepingdonut]

I really don't know how anyone can be happy paying for it. I would feel pathetic I couldn't get it without handing over cash

 

One way or another, every man pays for it.

[sleepingdonut]

Since the question asked here is gender neutral, I’ll give my opinion, too. If a friend of mine used prostitutes, I would seriously question his emotional well-being and I’d want to know the thought patterns that affected his decision process. But I wouldn’t judge him in a way to make him feel like less of a person for it, unless he’s aware that he may be hurting people in the process. I don’t think most men know the truth behind the sex trade and the heavy coercion placed upon many of the women that work in it. So I’d try to educate him, and I’d try to help him understand that he’s not going to find what he’s looking for with prostitutes.

 

I’m not surprised how judgmental people are on this topic, but I do think they’re wrong to dismiss a guy on the basis of his values towards sex. Some men are just incredibly lonely, and they see no other way. It doesn’t mean they’re beyond enlightment or change. Steinbeck’s novel, Of Mice and Men, is one of my favorite examples of the lonely life of the poor working man. Even though it was set during the Great Depression of the 1930’s, some things are still similar today.

 

“A guy needs somebody―to be near him. A guy goes nuts if he ain't got nobody. Don't make no difference who the guy is, long's he's with you. I tell ya, I tell ya a guy gets too lonely an' he gets sick.” -Of Mice and Men

 

As one character, Crooks, states there, loneliness becomes as sickness over time. It leads to be a pitiable desperation, yet people usually have little pity for this state of being. And that’s understandable. There’s a biological impetus in each person, regardless of gender, that drives that said person to seek a healthy mate, emotionally, mentally, and physically. But the desperation of loneliness perhaps carries the strongest stigma with it when it comes to a man attracting a woman. It would be better to be an alcoholic or habitual drug user, as society perceives those flaws as curable.

 

George’s comments below illustrate some of the lack of hope in a ranch hand’s life, and these thoughts become the seeds for an all encompassing desperation:

 

“Guys like us, that work on ranches, are the loneliest guys in the world. They got no family. They don't belong no place. They come to a ranch an' work up a stake, and the first thing you know they're poundin' their tail on some other ranch. They ain't got nothing to look ahead to.”

 

“I see hundreds of men come by on the road an’ on the ranches with their bindles on their back an’ that same damn thing in their heads. Hundreds of them. They come, an’ they quit an’ go on; an’ every damn one of ‘em’s got a little piece of land in his head. An’ never a God damn one of ‘em ever gets it. Just like heaven. Ever’body wants a little piece of lan’. I read plenty of books out there. Nobody never gets to heaven, and nobody never gets no land. It’s just in their head.”

 

George speaks of a desperation marked by unfulfilled dreams and ambitions. It’s not a desperation for women, but rather a desperation for meaning. However, for many men of the time, the latter translates into the former in their minds. These men don’t have any real way of attracting mates. They have no money, no steady work, no real education, no traits that females typically consider desirable. Those things are easier to change for a man in modern society, but still, depending on an individual’s starting point and circumstances, the change can be extremely difficult. And if the person wasn’t raised to be confident and they weren’t encouraged through adversity and led to develop a mental fortitude, that person may easily buckle under the stress of trying to change.

 

George at least realizes, if not consciously, then intuitively, that his friend Lenny is the best thing he has to combat the loneliness of his life. George complains about Lenny, but he still stays with him:

 

"If was alone I could live so easy. I could go get a job an’ work, an’ no trouble. No mess at all, and when the end of the month come I could take my fifty bucks and go into town and get whatever I want. Why, I could stay in a cathouse all night. I could eat any place I want, hotel or any place, and order any damn thing"

 

George admits if it weren’t for Lenny he could go stay in a cathouse, a common escape for the migrant workers of that time period. But George doesn’t do it because he feels a higher purpose in his life, that is, until he finally loses Lenny at the end of the novel. And then George’s disposition changes more to that of the traditional lonely migrant worker:

 

"I'll work my month an' I'll take my fifty bucks an' I'll stay all night in some lousy cathouse. Or I'll set in some poolroom til ever'body goes home. An' then I'll come back an' work another month an' I'll have fifty bucks more"

 

Loneliness is a powerful emotion. And while I’m sure women feel it at times, too, I don’t think women really understand how alone men can feel. Most women will tell you they can always find sex or companionship at any time, they just choose to hold to higher standards (because they have that luxury). For some men though, the absolute lack of hope, the realization that they can’t find sex or companionship, no matter how hard they try, leads to a spiraling sense of despair and a lack of any self worth.

 

Women in this thread seem to understand the coercion that leads to the life of a female sex worker. And they don’t fully fault her for her choices. Yet the same could be said for the lonely man. His values toward sex may be no different than a prostitute’s values toward sex—both people may want true love and acceptance, but their life circumstances have broken them down to a point where all they perceive they have is that pitiable choice—one that has been emphasized as not really much of a choice. I’m not saying it’s exactly the same for a prostitute and a lonely man, but there are definitely parallels. Most men seeking prostitutes didn’t wake up one day with a smile on their faces thinking a life of meaningless sex with prostitutes would be their chosen Nirvana. It’s a choice that comes with a life of desperation. And if you can pity women, you should be able to pity men, too.

[Iggles]

Loneliness is a powerful emotion. And while I’m sure women feel it at times, too, I don’t think women really understand how alone men can feel. Most women will tell you they can always find sex or companionship at any time, they just choose to hold to higher standards (because they have that luxury). For some men though, the absolute lack of hope, the realization that they can’t find sex or companionship, no matter how hard they try, leads to a spiraling sense of despair and a lack of any self worth.

 

First, let me say your post was very insightful! I appreciated how you explained the psyche of a lonely/solitary man, and it also made me want to read the book you referenced. (I never read "Of Mice and Men" in school!)

 

I'm the first to admit, I'll never fully understand the experiences and thought process of men. As a woman, that's the vantage point in which I navigate the world. Biology speaking, our brains are different so that's part of the disconnect as well as differing levels of sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen).

 

That said, there are very few people -- both men and women -- who are truly out of options for sex. In terms of numbers, if your attractiveness ranks as a 4 (just below average), there are plenty of 2s and 1s that would love to be with you. Relationships work the same way. Unless you are a 1, it is possible to lower your standards to find a mate. Furthermore, assertive mating is the norm. You see plenty of 5s with other 5s (despite what we see on Television, most people are average looking!), as well as other pairings within 1 or 2 stand deviations of attractiveness. So even if you are a 1, there is a person of the same level of attractiveness you can find. If there are no takers, either change your market (ie, change your location and move to a place with better prospects) or improve yourself (new haircut, wardrobe, gain status, etc).

 

I'm making it sound more simplistic than it is, but the argument that woman can easily find sex & companionship if they lower their standards while men can't is faulty. Nearly all of us can lower our standards to find someone but most of us want more than that. We want a person we feel a connection with. Can build a future with. A lot of women, myself included, will hold out until we do. It's a different kind of loneliness but it's not easy to bare either.

 

Women in this thread seem to understand the coercion that leads to the life of a female sex worker. And they don’t fully fault her for her choices. Yet the same could be said for the lonely man. His values toward sex may be no different than a prostitute’s values toward sex—both people may want true love and acceptance, but their life circumstances have broken them down to a point where all they perceive they have is that pitiable choice—one that has been emphasized as not really much of a choice. I’m not saying it’s exactly the same for a prostitute and a lonely man, but there are definitely parallels. Most men seeking prostitutes didn’t wake up one day with a smile on their faces thinking a life of meaningless sex with prostitutes would be their chosen Nirvana. It’s a choice that comes with a life of desperation. And if you can pity women, you should be able to pity men, too.

 

You're right. There are parallels. However, few men would be willing to wife a prostitute. A woman's disinterest in dating a man who pays for sex is similar. Desperation is not an attractive quality in a mate accross genders.

 

Someone who equates sex from strangers with love has a lot of internal work to do before they can be a healthy partner! They have to learn to love themselves first before they can return love to anyone else. With the right person their past won't be a hindrance to building a bright future together.

[Lonewing]

Biology speaking, our brains are different so that's part of the disconnect as well as differing levels of sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen).

 

This popular theory has no basis in science and has been disproven more than enough times to make me wonder why people keep repeating it. You have been socially conditioned to think you think like a woman, but it has no basis on brain structure itself; your brain is in essence no different than that of a man. What has been different is how you were raised, taught, and conditioned.

 

So even if you are a 1, there is a person of the same level of attractiveness you can find. If there are no takers, either 1) change your market (ie, change your location and move to a place with better prospects) or 2) improve yourself (new haircut, wardrobe, gain status, etc).

 

Or 3) pay her what she wants and transcend your level for a night.

 

Someone who equates sex from strangers with love has a lot of internal work to do before they can be a healthy partner! They have to learn to love themselves first before they can return love to anyone else. With the right person their past won't be a hindrance to building a bright future together.

 

Or maybe they have a broader understanding of love than you do. I wouldn't have believed it myself, not until I had that ONS. it has changed my understanding forever - sometimes what another human being needs is someone else, even if just for that night.

[Iggles]

This popular theory has no basis in science and has been disproven more than enough times to make me wonder why people keep repeating it. You have been socially conditioned to think you think like a woman, but it has no basis on brain structure itself; your brain is in essence no different than that of a man. What has been different is how you were raised, taught, and conditioned

 

I read a study about this a few days ago which proved there are REAL differences in the brains of men and women.

 

link removed

 

You're wrong about gender being social conditioning! If that's true than a baby is a blank slate who can be raised either gender. In practice that has not been proven to be the case! Ever heard of David Reimer? He had a botched circumcision as an infant and doctors decided to do genital reassignment to raise him as female. It didn't work! When he was old enough he asserted his male geder identity.

 

Also, hormones have a HUGE effect on our bodies and minds.

What many people don't know (although they experience this all the time) is that sex hormones act on the brain to directly affect mood and cognition.

link removed

[blueidealist24]

Yeah, if a guy told me that I wouldn't date him or if I already was, I would break up with him. Even if I married someone and they admitted it years later it would still make me feel uncomfortable, although I wouldn't say it would be grounds for divorce.

[tiredofvampires]

For all the brilliance of Steinbeck, he was, as are nearly all writers, still coming from the POV of his own gender. Male authors' protagonists are usually men, and female authors' protagonists are usually women. So naturally, Steinbeck is painting the picture of a man's psyche. And it's not meant as a comparison to a woman's -- it's just the portrait of these characters and something that is universal through them.

 

But the desperation of loneliness perhaps carries the strongest stigma with it when it comes to a man attracting a woman. It would be better to be an alcoholic or habitual drug user, as society perceives those flaws as curable.

 

I can top any of those stigmas:

 

A woman visiting a male prostitute. If you're skeptical about that, ask yourself this: for as long as prostitution has been around (which is, since recorded history and probably before), as the oldest profession in the world, how many of those professionals were men catering to women? Throughout history? Think about the social concept, historically, of a woman taking male concubines, courtesans, the male counterparts of sanctioned mistresses, or going to street prostitutes who were male? Did any of that even EXIST? What do you think about the acceptability of such an idea, over the course of epochs and accross cultures? (I will leave aside the issue of built-in power advantages/disadvantages that go into this, as women are more physically vulnerable than men to being overpowered from a brute physical standpoint, which factors into this fundamental imbalance, but that's beyond the scope of this topic.)

 

And now in this modern age, where at least it might be possible -- ask yourself this: what sounds more pitiable and pathetic to you, just on a gut level -- a lonely man buying sex from a sex worker because he feels he can't get a girlfriend, or an older woman who buys herself sex because she feels old and ugly? Which one do you think society instinctively finds more palatable?

 

It would be interesting if this thread were a female poster asking, "What would you think of a woman visiting a (male) prostitute?" Which I've never seen asked on this board. The situation isn't even BROACHED -- because it almost can't be. We can talk about men being disgusting to stoop to hiring prostitutes...but we can't even imagine women doing that, if we were to imagine the counterpart of a never-married businessman hiring the average hooker. How about a middle-aged businesswoman finding a young guy on drugs selling his body? Let's step it up now: a married businessman who hates his marriage illicitly going to a street hooker, versus the married soccer mom who hates her marriage going to a male street hooker? I'll wait for the thread on that to see how people look upon that. I think it's going to be a long wait.

 

So that's the piece you're missing, sleepingdonut.

 

It's not that men are more lonely or oftener than women, that when they are, their need is more piercing, that they have less opportunity for companionship with women. Take a man who can't find love and a woman who can't, and loneliness is an equal opportunity visitor, with equal mercilessness. It's not for greater luxury that women seek out paid sex less to quell the pain of loneliness, it's for the reason I mentioned above, and that men seem to be wired in such a way sexually in GENERAL that they are more apt to be fooled by the illusion that sex feels like closeness. Women's sexuality makes that kind of sex transparently unfulfilling, because they can't leave their emotions at the door as well as men; so fooling themselves for an hour is less worth it. Doesn't mean they have more options/"luxuries" or that the qualitative or quantitative nature of that loneliness is less desperate.

 

So if you're a woman, you just withdraw from the opposite sex. And sublimate the need. And become Emily D.ickinson's voice, in place of George's.

 

The Loneliness One Dare Not Sound

 

The Loneliness One dare not sound—

And would as soon surmise

As in its Grave go plumbing

To ascertain the size—

 

The Loneliness whose worst alarm

Is lest itself should see—

And perish from before itself

For just a scrutiny—

 

The Horror not to be surveyed—

But skirted in the Dark—

With Consciousness suspended—

And Being under Lock—

 

I fear me this—is Loneliness—

The Maker of the soul

Its Caverns and its Corridors

Illuminate—or seal—

 

How do you think it would have gone over for D.ickinson to have put the pen away and just have found a gigolo (as if they even existed in 19th century New England)?

 

For as "pitiable" as a man's loneliness when he breaks down, it's a loneliness grudgingly endorsed.

 

And if you are calling for pity, I think every woman on this thread pities a man who goes to a prostitute. But who wants pity?

[Lonewing]

I read a study about this a few days ago which proved there are REAL differences in the brains of men and women.

 

link removed

 

Find "The Mathematics of Sex" by Ceci and Williams. You're interested in pages 58-78. While the researches found there is differences, the differences are not significant enough in light of those that develop as a result of other factors such as environment and social pressures. While hormones play a role, they do not play as big of a role as otherwise suggested or even as much as the researches had presumed before engaging in this study.

 

You're wrong about gender being social conditioning! If that's true than a baby is a blank slate who can be raised either gender. In practice that has not been proven to be the case! Ever heard of David Reimer? He had a botched circumcision as an infant and doctors decided to do genital reassignment to raise him as female. It didn't work! When he was old enough he asserted his male geder identity.

 

Explain then all the little girls and boys who are born one sex but believe they should be the other sex, even though they have all the functional organs that suggests the opposite. A couple outliers on one end of the spectrum cannot support a hypothesis when there are more outliers on the other end of the spectrum suggesting the opposite.

 

Find "The Truth about Girls and Boys" by Rivers and Barnett. You're going to need to whole book this time, but it's a really, really good read and a fantastic summary of more research than we could possible read in this space we have. It all starts with Pink and Blue and with how we approach a baby who is a boy and a baby who is a girl.

 

Your way of thinking about love, sex and relationships is not as greatly influenced by your brain structure or your hormones as you might want to think; it is mostly influenced by your social upbringing and your environmental conditioning as determined by the people around you and how you react to their lessons. I dare say this conditioning was by and large complete before you even reached the age of five, hence you never would have had the chance to think about it one way or the other.

[Lonewing]

I would believe you, but I don't.

 

First, I've already met a retired male escort, as in, a man for hire for women. I don't think it's any less severe of an issue for women than it is for men. If anything, I believe it's only more common for men to seek out a prostitute because it's socially acceptable for us to do it, if not in society at large, but within our male clique. Women have something going on socially that is crippling to themselves and each other, I dare say it is women who are quicker to call another woman a {removed} in a mean condescending way than it is for men to do the same thing. If men do call her that same phrase, its more likely they're using it before hand as a tease and afterwards as a condescending manner of saying "I'm through with you."

 

The lack of anecdotes in history should not be taken as a conclusion that there is then no evidence. To what I am aware of, Chinese empresses had Eunuchs, which will they may have been castrated, the penis still works even after castration - though most people seem to believe a castration is synonymous with a penectomy. It's as comparable as an oophorectomy is to a vaginectomy. To balance out the equation, a hysterectomy would be most analogous to a prostectomy, the removal of the prostate in the male. The whole point is, where women have been in power, there has been signs of the trade in the less common direction.

 

That being said, by and large in western culture, women have not had the freewill to choose a male prostitute, and where they have had the free will to do so, they haven't had to pay - women have most certainly been getting their fields plowed by men who are not their husbands, as evident by the fact that infidelity is not a male nor a female problem, it impacts both sexes pretty evenly.

 

Women in general don't have to pay if they want sex. If anything, they drive the supply of available sex, both inside and outside of relationships - how often is it the woman who wants more sex and the man who isn't putting out [i know, it happens, we have a good supply of those threads on these boards!]

 

If a woman wants to get laid, though, there is such a large supply of free men who just wants sex she just has to put up an ad on Craigslist and she'll have 150 replies in half an hour. At least, that's what it's like in my area. I'm not making this up.

 

 

 

I honestly don't pass reservation against either person. Having been there for an older woman, albeit nothing changed hands, I don't look down on either side of the equation. If that's what someone does, so be it. What I do find detestable are these people who go out, get each other drunk so they can take each other home and play around under the guise that they did it because they were drunk. And further there's these people who sleep with others in the hopes that it will lead to a relationship when there really isn't any reason to have such hopes.

[tiredofvampires]

My point was not really about who "has" to pay for sex more often, men or women, due to a dearth of options in the opposite sex. That's debatable, and really depends on the individual, too. There are good-looking men who pay for sex, and women that virtually all men would turn down for sex for their looks. And as a poster stated above, nearly anyone could find sex if they lowered their standards far enough. Most men who claim they CAN'T get sex probably could, but they may not be able to get it up for the women who would be obliging. So I count that as still being ABLE to find sex, and for all the women in that position, the men have lots of company with that problem ("water, water all around, and not a drop to drink"). The "availability" factor remains open to interpretation. Truth be told, I think men are able to tolerate being sexless less than women. And society follows suit in catering to that, as well as enabling a perception of "need" around that.

 

I'm speaking more to the point about loneliness, and what it compels the genders to do. I'm saying that men visiting prostitutes more readily than a woman would is a function of various social and psycho-sexual factors, but intensity or urgency of loneliness is not one of them (as sleepingdonut's post would suggest).

 

Also, I said it's more taboo for a woman to hire a sex worker and I think you've agreed with me. Doesn't matter whether men or women are judging her -- she's more judged. (And I don't think your acceptance of it would be a common male reaction.)

 

Finally, in upper-class and royal social circles, eunuchs existed for the benefit of the male royalty, who wanted to control the royal progeny. It was not so that women could enjoy their flings (even though they did sometimes, illicitly).

 

P.S. There is no male equivalent of the uterus. The clitoris/penis, the clitoral hood/the foreskin, the prostate/the female urethral sponge, the ovaries/the testicles are all homologues. But the uterus stands alone as an organ with no parallel in men, because its sole purpose is to incubate a human being.

[Lonewing]

It's analogous, though, in that the ovaries are tied to the vagina by the uterus, and the testes are tied to the penis through the prostate. Had there not been testes present during development, the prostate would have developed into a uterus. And there is a part, the prostatic utricle, that is directly related to the uterus, I did not believe you so I looked it up. In the womb we all start unsexed, and then we develop our sets of organs from the same primordial ooze...

 

As different as we are, physically, we're just as similar. Hence, loneliness is really not going to be unique for either men or women. What is different is how we deal with it, and what we are socially allowed to do to deal with it. Our sense of love is not a genetic quality, it is something we learn. We seem to agree with this much...

 

I dare say though, what is new now is how we as a society are actively encouraging women to express and engage their sexuality. Up to this point, women have been for the most part taught a narrow viewpoint on sex, held to higher standards, and controlled by those above and around them. Today, women have economic freedom, which means they can engage in a wider range of behavior without fear that they might lose their means to live. I've heard it enough myself to know it's true, there are a good portion of women out there who just want to get laid, no love or relationship involved. I'd go so far as to say the more relationships we have, the older we get and the more we see, the easier and freer we get with how we view sex, love, and charity.

 

In the young part of our life, we learn A is B and only B. That is what A always looks like, B. They taught us this way to 1), instill the values they want us to expose, and B), to avoid confusing us, because if they taught us "there are many ways by which love is expressed," we would have had much less incentive to ingrain "A is B, and only B." Take religion, for instance, they did not teach us about God, Buddha, Allah, et al. They taught us about the one they wanted us to expose, and only that one, and only let us learn about those others after we were old enough to recognize the difference between the first one and the latters. I did not have the benefit of that education...and I am most thankful for that!

[Capricorn3]

Thread off topic and has run its course. Closed.