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nice guys AND good guys finish last?


radiohead20

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First of all,

 

Nice Guy = Typical non-dramatic guy that typical lands in the friend zone because he is too agreeable and does not assert is masculinity. Typically lands in the friend zone

 

Bad boy = not going to explain this one. Very attractive to women, at a primal level. irresistible.

 

Good guy = Well Balance guy is nice, but genuinely nice (not fake nice). He is not afraid to assert his masculinity and "make a move" and is not afraid to state his opinions and defend those he is close too. However, he does not manipulate people and lives a fairly balanced life. Does not get into trouble with the law/does not show narcissistic tendencies etc. STILL, undesirable to women? , or at least not AS desirable as the bad boy?

 

 

After reading the thread on this forum about "breaking the bad boy" dating pattern and the copious responses from various women on their experiences with this as well as the length of the thread ( and also experiences noticing female friends over the years), it seems as though not only do "nice guys" finish last, but "good guys" typically also finish last, or at least finish in second place.

 

It seems as though if offered two choices, a "Good guy" (not a nice guy) and a "bad boy", the women will feel far more attraction towards the "bad boy", at least on an instinctual level.

 

Example:

 

Bad Guy: 35, works as a bartender and does mixed martial arts on the side. Continually relapses on drug use. has a smooth side and is charming when he wants but a nasty side when things don't go his way. Has been in many physical altercations, either defending those that are close to him or attacking people that "talk down to him". his life motto is "I do what I want, when I want".

 

Good guy: 35 year old patent lawyer. Does mixed martial arts on the side as a serious hobby and has won several awards. Tried drugs a few times in college but it didn't really click with him. He is built and strong but has a gentle soul. Would rather walk away then get into a fight, unless the ones he is close to are getting attacked. Voraciously ambitious and everything he puts his mind too he eventually gets.

 

 

 

It seems that either:

 

#1 It is difficult to find good guys as explained above to be single and thus are very rare, (and thus women default to bad boys).

#2 They actually prefer the bad boys, attraction wise.

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A little background on me: I have dated three people in my life. All of them good guys. I was attracted to one bad boy in high school but never dated him.

 

I find the "nice guys finish last line" a cop-out. Look, just because a woman chooses someone other than you does not automatically make that other guy a bad boy. Instead of worrying about this I recommend tending to your own garden. What kind of woman are you attracted to? What kind of men do those woman want? An artsy woman is going to want a creative man, a career driven woman is going to want someone with goals, etc. Whatever kind of woman you want, figure out if you are the kind of guy they are looking and if not how can you became that? Or, are you attracted to the wrong kind of woman?

 

I also recommend reading this: link removed

And going on to youtube, look up Jenna Marbles Nice Guys Finish Last.

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Sounds like nothing more than whining about not getting the girl.

 

Lol, you are awesome. I don't know anything about "bad boys" or anything like that. I do know that the crazy crushes I have had in my younger years have been on guys who have been super attractive and confident. That did not inherently make them "bad" but it made them desirable to a lot of girls. It probably made them less and not more available for a relationship because they had a lot of options.

 

But those guys eventually settled down and are good guys, so I don't even like calling them "bad."

 

I would strongly caution people against this overly simplistic description. It's a cop out for folks who want to be lazy and blame women for not liking them.

 

Attraction is a complex thing and there are things we can internally do to make ourselves attractive. I have male friends who are perfectly nice but in terrible shape or have poor social skills and can't seem to understand why they cannot find a woman. Because self-improvement (inside and out) is not on their radar.

 

At the same time, there has to be some humility. We all are awesome, but not everyone we want is going to want us. Just a fact. So we have to be humble and understand that people have different desires and needs from us.

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Sounds like nothing more than whining about not getting the girl.

 

It's Frustrating. Duh.

 

 

 

A little background on me: I have dated three people in my life. All of them good guys. I was attracted to one bad boy in high school but never dated him.

 

I find the "nice guys finish last line" a cop-out. Look, just because a woman chooses someone other than you does not automatically make that other guy a bad boy. Instead of worrying about this I recommend tending to your own garden. What kind of woman are you attracted to? What kind of men do those woman want? An artsy woman is going to want a creative man, a career driven woman is going to want someone with goals, etc. Whatever kind of woman you want, figure out if you are the kind of guy they are looking and if not how can you became that? Or, are you attracted to the wrong kind of woman?

 

I also recommend reading this: link removed

And going on to youtube, look up Jenna Marbles Nice Guys Finish Last.

 

 

Well, I am attracted to extroverted girls with good people skills and a slight artsy side, if I were to nail a "type" down. What I have begun to notice, however, is that compatibly, in this sense, has little to do with what attracts women. AKA, attraction, which seems to be brought on by traits that have little to do with compatibility, is far more important than compatibility itself. I am really not interested in becoming someone else in order to attract a women, I am more interested in just being the best version of myself - hitting my goals etc.

 

thanks moontiger - maybe this is case of "If I am focused on it, it is all I tend to see"

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The thing is, extroverted girls do not want to date a man with little to no confidence. You guys are energy draining vampires!!!

 

And attraction is not the dominant factor --- it is the opening salvo. After that, if you are not compatible, you could look like a greek god and the girl is

still going to walk away.

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It's Frustrating. Duh.

 

 

We'll maybe its time to do some self inspection. Determine why it is that girls aren't choosing you. Determine what type of girls you are choosing and why they aren't working out for you. Stop playing the "Girls don't like nice guys card" as an excuse.

 

Step one. If you are a 35 year old attorney, stop using phrases like "Duh".

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I am going to just read without being critical and assume that everything you are saying is correct, mainly because the description you wrote about the bartender vs the lawyer sounded plausible. The first thing i am going to point out is that this bartender guy probably has more charm and social skills then a man who spends his time reading law books and dealing with boring clients all day long.

 

Of course he is going to be slightly more attractive to women, he is different in the fact that his appearance is different and his demeanor is different than the lawyer which women might think is normal or bland. If our society catered towards bad guys and good guys were rare, then you would see a trend towards women dating nice guys more often. I have to admit that even I as a man am attracted to these so-called bad girls instead of the good girls.

 

If i had to choose between a girl who listens and behaves the way she is expected to, dresses normally, and does everything pretty much by the book in terms of occupation, social behaviors and dating trends over a girl who has tattoos, dyed hair, piercings, and isn't afraid to take drugs every now and then. Well, sign me up for this bad girl. You will find that people find rare things to be of beauty, they stand out from the crowd.

 

This isn't to say that nice guys or good guys don't get women though. It really depends on the man and what he offers in terms of being creative and exciting. Find me a nice guy who is as adventurous and outgoing as any bad boy, and i bet most women might decide that both are equally attractive. Of course if you are the type of person who is going to sit down all day and complain about bad boys stealing all the women and doing nothing about your own situation. Then i cannot sympathize with that.

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Not true. My husband is a nice guy and a good guy but he brings more than that to the table. You have to bring more to the table then just "I'm a nice guy." Do you have something in common with the girl? What are your hobbies ,what are your interests? Do you have the same common goals and values as the girl?

 

There is more to this then I'm a nice guy.

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Well its all about what you want out of life and how you balance things. One could decide to be a patent lawyer over a bartender knowing that his social charisma with random strangers might suffer, but is it worth staying in a bartender position in order to preserve or improve that? I can socialize fine with strangers but as an engineer that spends most of his time in introspection at work I slowly become rusty at the whole "charisma" thing. I am sure I could gain it back if I worked as a bartender on the side one or two nights a week (I've considered this too) or involved myself in some kind of activity that forces a lot of social interaction. Is it worth it though? do I want to become a bartender once or twice a week just so I can be more attractive to women? Sounds a little "strange" but sometimes I think I may see more benefit than I think from doing something like this.

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One thing I saw with the perspective of a parent - part of the "bad boy" attraction is the "I can help him fix his problems."

 

"He's a great guy, just nobody likes him and he needs my help!"

 

Uh huh. Riiiiight. With the perspective of years of experience - I'd label Mr. Misunderstood as a lazy bum, mooch, and sponge who has exactly nothing going for him.

 

I can look back on my younger years and say yes, there's a healthy percentage of women who end up with less than great guys because that nurturing side just isn't always smart. Alcoholic? Druggie? Psych issues? Family issues? Can all be, not exactly attractive, it's more a factor to get involved. Our switch that is designed to make sure our families function, the supporting and helpmate drive, can fire off at all the WRONG times, especially if you're young and inexperienced.

 

Almost all of my friends dated guys with "needs." I know I did. My daughter had an almost fatal weakness for the hard luck needy guys. She was very attracted to the powerful feeling of helping, of standing with someone "against the world."

 

And yet, most of the guys that attract women this way are the WORST potential choices ever. It sometimes makes me wonder how we, as a race, survived.

 

So I'd add this category as separate from the Bad Boy - the Misunderstood Loser.

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It's good to screen people out sometimes by how quick they are to negatively stereotype based on chosen job/profession. But as far as the bad boy/good guy dichotomy, I don't think it's productive to have such black/white thinking or to speculate about why people choose each other.

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I can look back on my younger years and say yes, there's a healthy percentage of women who end up with less than great guys because that nurturing side just isn't always smart. Alcoholic? Druggie? Psych issues? Family issues? Can all be, not exactly attractive, it's more a factor to get involved.

 

Very good point. This may actually validate this thread entirely by making the argument: women don't feel needed with nice guys. What's interesting is that men rarely put themselves in the shoes of the women who he is pursuing. There is this thing called the Jesus syndrome which prompts females to feel like they can save someone (men i suppose, not sure why this doesn't apply to other women). In fact, this happened to me once as well, where i spent a lot of time and energy helping a female who actually didn't really want to be helped.

 

It was just that raw attraction to feeling important or feeling like i was needed for something which is what drove me to her. Also, the other thing i thought about was this statement i read on that cracked website which someone posted earlier.

 

Don't say that you're a nice guy -- that's the bare minimum. Pretty girls have guys being nice to them 36 times a day. The patient is bleeding in the street. Do you know how to operate or not?

 

Read more: link removed

 

It made me think to myself. What exactly can you offer to a women besides being nice. In fact reading that article made me think a lot more about myself and how i can be productive.

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I was wondering when someone was going to take it and run with it, actually - As though it validates and explains away life. Because, of course, the few women that posted there represent 100% of the world's population of women.

 

I have my own issues that contribute to my romantic choices. The "Misunderstood Loser" would actually sum it up PERFECTLY! It ISN'T attractive...Actually, it's ugly - But some people's desire to be needed rather than actually loved is a stronger pull than anything else. Need is busy, demanding and a perfect distraction from dealing with your own self. And some people are so confused that they associate a pulling need to be defined as love. Being a savior type still has a positive association even though it can be, and often is, destructive.

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I was wondering when someone was going to take it and run with it, actually - As though it validates and explains away life. Because, of course, the few women that posted there represent 100% of the world's population of women.

 

I have my own issues that contribute to my romantic choices. The "Misunderstood Loser" would actually sum it up PERFECTLY! It ISN'T attractive...Actually, it's ugly - But some people's desire to be needed rather than actually loved is a stronger pull than anything else. Need is busy, demanding and a perfect distraction from dealing with your own self. And some people are so confused that they associate a pulling need to be defined as love. Being a savior type still has a positive association even though it can be, and often is, destructive.

Exactly ,every person in the world has their own issues that make them choose different romantic partners. But statements like "women only like bad boys" totally negates the fact that everybody has their own issues. And to take someone's five or 10 experiences and then extrapolate that to include 4 billion women on the planet that leads to threads like these on a weekly basis.

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I see a lot of girls in high school and even college who like "bad boys". Some get knocked up by "bad boys" too, which is unfortunate. Many just have a couple bad experiences and learn that way. Most grow out of it at some point because bad boys don't make good partners, let alone fathers. But no, I don't think nice guys finish last because most women past their mid 20s have wised up.

 

You probably wouldn't want to date someone younger than that anyway I know, I'm early 20s, but many women my age are not ready for a serious relationship.

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I think it has nothing to do with being a bad guy or nice guy, (bartender/drugs/etc) it has to do with being confident or insecure (and showing it).

A guy that has confidence, shows that he is able to take care and protect the family, he is brave and not afraid of anything, shows that he'll go ahead and take the lead. it's masculine, that's why women like.

For the ones that actually likes the bad guys, well, they will learn.

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*sigh* another "poor me, women don't want me because I am a 'nice' guy" thread.

 

Total and utter B.S.

 

I have never ever ever dated a "bad boy" and I never would. Any and all of the men I have been involved with (including my husband) have been solid, reliable, steady, dependable guys who for whatever reason having nothing to do with that aspect of who they were, it just didn't work out. Your "examples" of the 'good guy' and the 'bad boy' are equally as flawed.

 

I wouldn't date either guy, because I have no interest in being with a workaholic (and lawyers have to spend LONG hours) or a man who continually "relapses" into drug use (too many of my family members have substance abuse problems - no thanks). However, the fact that I wouldn't date either should give you a good idea as to why people choose their partners. It is not always as simple as "I'm nice, why don't girls like me?" I don't think I would ever be compatible with an overly ambitious lawyer with martial arts trophies. I am not interested in things like that, no matter how "nice" he happens to be. Similarly I wouldn't be interested in a casual drug using bartender. What would we have in common?

 

One of my exes had a huge passion for sports cars, and worked as an IT guy. Solid, dependable job and a really nice person. However, I am not big into cars and the chemistry just wasn't there.

 

Ex #2 - again a really nice, reliable guy. We had a lot of fun together, but he decided to go into the military and I had no interest in being a military girlfriend/spouse, so that ended. We are still good friends.

 

I have never dated an addict or anybody who has cheated on me (that I know of anyway). I know how to spot men that wouldn't treat me well and I avoided that. I had a couple FWBs in my 20s when I wasn't interested in having a relationship at that point and maybe you can classify them as "bad boys" but I was never in a relationship with any of them for that reason and had no desire to be. There was no drama there - and I am still friends with a couple of them.

 

My husband is a "nice guy". When I met him, he owned his own flat, and had a stable job as an accounting clerk for a logistics company. Probably the most boring job you can think of to be honest. In fact, for the longest time I had no idea what he even did for a living. He was like Chandler on "Friends". I knew he worked in an office and that was about it. Now that he lives in Canada with me, he works as a data entry clerk for Goodlife Fitness...As for social skills, he wasn't Mr. Confidence either, so that whole chestnut is bogus as well. He was so shy the first night I met him that I assumed he wasn't interested and ended up kissing someone else that night. It wasn't until he walked me back to my hostel that I got to talk to him one on one and get to know him. He is quiet, introverted and not loud or boisterous. I wouldn't describe him as hugely ambitious either. But then none of those things appeal to me. What does appeal to me is the fact that he and I have a lot in common (both love Sci fi and going to conventions, etc.) we have the same values, and I know he will always be 100% loyal. NONE of that fits into the whole "all women want a bad boy" stereotype.

 

There is a heck of a lot more to compatibility than being an overconfident "bad boy" that needs saving.

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