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It's too early to say if this is just an instance of us getting to know each others' communication styles, or if SHANDA is an overly-sensitive, emotionally manipulative (whether wittingly or unwittingly) person who will take any perceived slight as an opportunity to leverage their "victimhood" to sway things their way.

Hopefully it's the former. Because if it's the latter, SHANDA can't hold a candle to my ex-wife and one of my ex-girlfriends, my past experience with whom will lead her to be kicked to the curb faster than she can say "you hurt my feelings!" or "all you think about is sex!"

 

Edited by NorthDallas40
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SHANDA arrived early last night, we took a walk around my neighborhood with no balking about the hilly terrain. Ten minutes in, she took my arm and held my hand. I gave her a kiss on a scenic overlook

SHANDA came over on Friday night and left today (Sunday 5pm) and we had a good time. I cooked a lot, we did a short hike, talked a lot, and watched some movies I recommended (and she liked). Plus, sex

This past Sunday and Monday nights, SHANDA called *me* just to chat and we talked for an hour each night. Just small talk, but fun. We're also texting regularly, though she's quite busy as an attorney

You already knew she was high maintenance though. The lead up to didn't sound too free flowing or like sparks were flying. It's been like squeezing water from a rock. This is who she is. It's good that she is open about what annoyed her. All part and parcel of getting to know someone for the long haul. I don't think she is being any different than what she's been these past few weeks. 

I'm hopeful that both of you will settle after these bumps and feel more familiar with each other eventually. You certainly are a patient man. 

 

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1 hour ago, NorthDallas40 said:

overly-sensitive, emotionally manipulative (whether wittingly or unwittingly) person who will take any perceived slight as an opportunity to leverage their "victimhood" to sway things their way.

That walk-thing was a little worrying, but I'd try not to read to much into it at this early stage.

Interesting that you categorize manipulators as overly sensitive. I've always gotten the sense that people who try to leverage "victimhood" are actually very calculating people who prey upon the feelings of the more sensitive souls. 

I think it's possible that she is dating someone else, which would explain why she is so wishy-washy.

Edited by Jibralta
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I called SHANDA tonight just to check in, she picked up after 2 rings and we had pleasant 40-minute chat. Of course among other things like movies, friends, Jupiter & Saturn, family, her roommate and the menu for Xmas Eve, we discussed the topic above, and really she was just having one of those busy weeks that finally takes its toll on other things like relationships. Overall she was cheerful and fun and thanked me for understanding, and took herself more to task than me... which is a complete 180 from my ex-wife, so I'll take it :D

She also said she'd not been exercising due to her workload and thought that might be a partial culprit, so she did outdoor yoga yesterday when it was sunny. She said she think that helped, and is going to try to do it more regularly. I think I may have inspired her on this point since I told her I walk around the lake every day and to situps/pushups every other day. 


So it was a good catchup, and I think the issues *should* be resolved now. Hopefully we'll at least make out for once on Dec. 24th!

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SHANDA arrived early last night, we took a walk around my neighborhood with no balking about the hilly terrain. Ten minutes in, she took my arm and held my hand. I gave her a kiss on a scenic overlook and she clearly liked it.

Back home, I gave her flowers and she surprisingly gave me a perfect gift I didn't expect: a vegan cookbook that featured classic soul/jazz/hiphop song pairings. She kinda nailed it with that one.

For dinner viewing, I gave her the choice between two classic Xmas movies but offhandedly mentioned an offbeat hard-science-fiction 70s flick in passing. She immediately chose the latter and loved it. 

After the movie I gave her a kiss but she clearly wanted to go further than that... so after some messing around, we did 🙂

She spent the night, we "went further" again, and stayed in bed cuddling (she's a world-class cuddler) until she went to see her parents around noon.

Not sure when I'll see her again because she has to look at her work schedule, but I have no doubt it's going to happen soon.

Finally - instead of being alone, I had a romantic Xmas!

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Shortly after that last entry, SHANDA asked if I wanted her to come over tonight or tomorrow. I voted tomorrow, so we can have a short break.

One tidbit that could be relevant later: since SHANDA has never smoked weed, last night I asked if it was ok I could partake during the movie. She said "Please don't" and that was fine with me. My guess is that's a permanent "please don't," but I'm not going to worry about that yet.

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Posted (edited)

Since my last entry, SHANDA came over on Dec 26th and the next morning, then again for NYE/New Year's Day/this morning. For the first time, I made homemade vegan pizza (we both loved it) and  - at her requsest - vegan cupcakes (I thought they were great, she thought they were okay), and I even pulled together a decent Asian-oriented meal last night that she liked too. She just left now. 

A few observations: 

- Though she's less of a talker than I am, she'll open up on the right topics, and our views/sense of humor seem compatible. Conversation isn't a problem, especially lying in bed for hours in the morning just cuddling and chatting, and going on a 2-hour hike like we did on NYE or sitting a bench and walking around the lake for 2 hours like we did yesterday. Overall she seems to enjoy my company, and I hers.

- Though we've had several TV/movie watching sessions this week, she took none of my suggestions and we only watched her choices. Luckily they were generally good, but I noticed the pattern.

- I'll be blunt here. After having sex several times with SHANDA, I can say with certainty that she's terrible in bed. She enjoys receiving oral sex, but never gave it. And she would only engage in actual intercourse for 3-5 minutes max, which meant she had several orgasms over the past couple of weeks, but I had none. 

So last night and this morning, I didn't initiate sex at all. Partially to see what she would do (Spoiler Alert: nothing), and partially because I wasn't eager to have mediocre sex again.

She always enjoys cuddling and holding hands with me, but there's clearly a block for her where sex is concerned. However, I didn't say anything about it this week; I wanted to give her time to get used to me, and not "ruin the moment." 

But this status quo is unacceptable for me in a monogamous relationship, so when/if we see each other again I will definitely bring it up diplomatically.

Which brings me to our parting just now. I walked her to her car, but when I went in for a kiss, I got a cheek. Twice. I pleasantly asked if she was mad at me, she smiled that she was okay. So I have no idea why she denied a kiss, but it's not a good sign. 

So after today, I may just let her make the first contact. Again.

Edited by NorthDallas40
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Maybe she needs to be in a serious relationship with someone she knows really well for a long time to feel comfortable expressing herself sexually and intimately -she may be "bad" in bed with people she doesn't know well like you.

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12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Maybe she needs to be in a serious relationship with someone she knows really well for a long time to feel comfortable expressing herself sexually and intimately

I was thinking along the same line.

 

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I'm not sure I agree with the previous posters. When I'm not comforable around someone, I don't accept oral sex from them. To me, that's even more intimate than intercourse. 

Frankly, she sounds rather selfish in bed. 

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5 hours ago, Eliza50 said:

I'm not sure I agree with the previous posters. When I'm not comforable around someone, I don't accept oral sex from them. To me, that's even more intimate than intercourse. 

Frankly, she sounds rather selfish in bed. 

It's an individual thing.  For me intercourse was much more intimate because I knew I could be risking pregnancy and I knew I would not be willing to abort.  She might be selfish or she might not be that into him and/or she might be more giving when the person she is with is someone she is in a committed relationship with - and if it's the latter I think she made a foolish choice to have sex when she knows she can't/won't feel comfortable giving all of herself. From what he described with all the push pull cold hot distance flakiness shortly after they met I'm not that surprised that she's kind of meh about being sexual.  I also think she sees this as temporary because she put the kabosh on him smoking pot but she knows this is something he does regularly, or senses it, and that's going to be an eventual dealbreaker.

Edited by Batya33
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15 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It's an individual thing.

Very much so. I knew a girl who thought anal sex didn't count as sex and so proceeded down that road so that she could remain a virgin! I didn't understand that logic, but to each her own!!

Sex is about as personal as you can get. That's why it helps to get to know each other and to communicate. A little intimacy goes a long way. It's not rocket science.

But there are certainly people who are selfish in bed, and who aren't interested in learning the new ropes. For them, it might as well be rocket science.

Edited by Jibralta
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1 minute ago, Jibralta said:

Very much so. I knew a girl who thought anal sex didn't count as sex and so proceeded down that road so that she could remain a virgin! I didn't understand that logic, but to each her own!!

Sex is about as personal as you can get. That's why it helps to get to know each other and to communicate. It's not rocket science.

But there are certainly people who are selfish in bed, and who aren't interested in learning the new ropes. For them, it might as well be rocket science.

A virgin is a person who has not had vaginal intercourse.  But being "virginal' is a different matter of course!  Yes, people see different sexual acts as different in intimacy -i.e. Pretty Woman, right?  There are people who are selfish in bed of course but I think here there are too many other variables to make that conclusion.  Just like she may feel it would be selfish of him not to give up smoking pot in order to be in a serious relationship with her - that he wouldn't be open to learning a new way of behaving - it's such a fluid definition.  

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11 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

A virgin is a person who has not had vaginal intercourse.  But being "virginal' is a different matter of course!

Yes, I know. Not an exact comparison. But just goes to show how people view things differently. I always thought that the concept of virginity was stupid, and that whole anal/vaginal thing was a bizarre technicality--even though I remained a virgin myself until I was 20. Other people placed a lot more meaning in it than I did--I just didn't want to get pregnant!

And yes, there are too many variables at play to draw any real conclusions about either person in this situation. It's all academic: maybe it's this, maybe it's that. But ultimately, whatever it actually is, it's up to them to decide if they want to try to make it work, or if it's just too much of a bother.

Edited by Jibralta
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Whatever SHANDA's motivations regarding sex, the fact is this: 

If you gladly receive repeated orgasms and oral sex while repeatedly withholding those same things from your partner, you're lousy in bed. Period, end of discussion.

I'd also like to add that in addition to SHANDA running a deficit in the orgasm/oral sex columns, I'm also leading her in terms of hosting at my house, cooking and paying for her meals, and giving her frequent massages when we're sitting/laying together. 

In fact, the more I think about what I may have done wrong (in her eyes) to deserve not getting a goodbye kiss yesterday, the more reasons I find why she should be making things up to *me*.

In any case, it's been almost a full day and not a peep from SHANDA, nor have I contacted her. 
 

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You're assuming she is "withholding" -you don't know her well so you don't know if there's something else going on -shyness? anxiety? sudden gas pains where she's worried she's going to fart in bed if she moves a certain way? She's still mostly a stranger to you -so, communicate instead of assuming.  Just like you don't want her to assume you're some pothead/stoner because you enjoy smoking pot, etc.  It's much easier to communicate when you know someone better but since a specific kind of sexual performance by her is important to you, then it's on you to tell her that you're not feeling satisfied.  Assuming is just self-sabotaging in this situation.  Of course since you don't know her well you can choose to assume and move on -nothing really lost since she's very new in your life and you're not yet in a relationship.

As far as the one sided invitations the last couple of weeks again don't assume -maybe she thinks there's more of a covid risk in her living space, etc

 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

You're assuming she is "withholding" 

I listed the basic things I did for her that she did not do for me, but that most considerate adults would have reciprocated without hesitation.

So I'm not "assuming" anything, just reporting what is true. 
 

Quote

you don't know her well so you don't know if there's something else going on -shyness? anxiety? sudden gas pains where she's worried she's going to fart in bed if she moves a certain way? 


When I typed "whatever SHANDA's motivations regarding sex" above, that covered everything you just mentioned. 

When a 40+ woman thinks it's acceptable to receive oral sex and orgasms without returning the favor, that's the definition of "lousy in bed." Period. End of discussion. As anyone who is *not* lousy in bed can tell you.
 

Quote

She's still mostly a stranger to you -so, communicate instead of assuming. 


Rather than make a snarky comment, I'm going to assume you missed the part where I literally wrote: 

"I didn't say anything about it this week; I wanted to give her time to get used to me, and not 'ruin the moment.' But this status quo is unacceptable for me in a monogamous relationship, so when/if we see each other again I will definitely bring it up diplomatically." 

Edited by NorthDallas40
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50 minutes ago, NorthDallas40 said:

Rather than make a snarky comment, I'm going to assume you missed the part where I wrote: 

"I didn't say anything about it this week; I wanted to give her time to get used to me, and not 'ruin the moment.' But this status quo is unacceptable for me in a monogamous relationship, so when/if we see each other again I will definitely bring it up diplomatically."

I get it... this is your journal and you're just putting what happened as a reference point for yourself.

I for one, think she sounds like she withheld a lot for some reason.  But I also see you understood it could be, "whatever," and are waiting to communicate in the future as you said.

I'm sorry she's like that.  Hopefully it changes, but people don't usually change (imo).

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2 hours ago, NorthDallas40 said:

Rather than make a snarky comment, I'm going to assume you missed the part where I literally wrote: 

"I didn't say anything about it this week; I wanted to give her time to get used to me, and not 'ruin the moment.' But this status quo is unacceptable for me in a monogamous relationship, so when/if we see each other again I will definitely bring it up diplomatically." 

You've concluded that she is unacceptably inconsiderate and lousy in bed, and is also running a deficit to you in terms of meals and massages. Why bother to give her time or even bring it up in the future? You sound genuinely offended by her. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jibralta said:

You've concluded that she is unacceptably inconsiderate and lousy in bed, and is also running a deficit to you in terms of meals and massages. Why bother to give her time or even bring it up in the future? You sound genuinely offended by her. 

Poor bedroom skills can be improved if one has the right teacher and is willing to learn. SHANDA has the former within reach, while the latter is unknown.

As for the hosting/meal/massage tally, it didn't make a difference to me until I felt like I was being given a cold shoulder for my deficits by someone who, in terms of relationship favors, had incurred more deficits than I.

So while I'm annoyed and frustrated by SHANDA at the moment, it doesn't have to be a permanent state. This journal has demonstrated that I'm willing to give 2nd and 3rd chances to people who offer more than crumbs, even if that just means "slightly less than scraps."

In any case, she just texted me a picture of some chickens, along with their names and the fact that she hasn't met them yet. I'm not sure who they are (assuming they're her friends'), but I texted back with that query.

So for now, it looks like the lack of a kiss was a minor blip I needn't worry about... or she accidentally texted me a photo meant for someone else. Guess I'll find out sooner or later.

Edited by NorthDallas40
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4 hours ago, NorthDallas40 said:

I listed the basic things I did for her that she did not do for me, but that most considerate adults would have reciprocated without hesitation.

So I'm not "assuming" anything, just reporting what is true. 
 


When I typed "whatever SHANDA's motivations regarding sex" above, that covered everything you just mentioned. 

When a 40+ woman thinks it's acceptable to receive oral sex and orgasms without returning the favor, that's the definition of "lousy in bed." Period. End of discussion. As anyone who is *not* lousy in bed can tell you.
 


Rather than make a snarky comment, I'm going to assume you missed the part where I literally wrote: 

"I didn't say anything about it this week; I wanted to give her time to get used to me, and not 'ruin the moment.' But this status quo is unacceptable for me in a monogamous relationship, so when/if we see each other again I will definitely bring it up diplomatically." 

LOL love the snarkiness.  You did write that but once you started complaining about other things you don't like I figured you'd abandoned that plan.  

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1 hour ago, Jibralta said:

You've concluded that she is unacceptably inconsiderate and lousy in bed, and is also running a deficit to you in terms of meals and massages. Why bother to give her time or even bring it up in the future? You sound genuinely offended by her. 

Yes, that is why I responded as I did - but the communication didn't seem to be targeted toward asking her what was going on as much as him wanting to express to her how he felt about what she was doing.  I'd approach it as curious not furious but as Jibralta wrote, since she is someone you don't know very well and there are these issues plus you already know she's not into your weed smoking habit, I'd cut my losses and move on.  Also before she started coming to your place and having sex with you she was really blowing hot and cold- in the short time you've known her sounds like a lot more issues/drama/flakiness than good stuff.  And now you don't like how she is in bed.  If you truly care about what could be going on other than your assumptions about what most female adults would do when having sex with someone they recently started dating that's fine but it sounds like she's already not on your good list so to speak.

Edited by Batya33
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3 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

I get it... this is your journal and you're just putting what happened as a reference point for yourself.

I for one, think she sounds like she withheld a lot for some reason.  But I also see you understood it could be, "whatever," and are waiting to communicate in the future as you said.

I'm sorry she's like that.  Hopefully it changes, but people don't usually change (imo).

I think people can change their behavior and do so all the time.  When it comes to sex, people can change how they act and react sexually if they want to and of course it depends on the individual and individual situation.  If he already knew she was a person who acted selfishly and this was just one of the ways she acted selfishly then yes that could be an uphill battle with a person like that . But it's unclear so far what's going on.  

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37 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think people can change their behavior and do so all the time.  When it comes to sex, people can change how they act and react sexually if they want to and of course it depends on the individual and individual situation.  If he already knew she was a person who acted selfishly and this was just one of the ways she acted selfishly then yes that could be an uphill battle with a person like that . But it's unclear so far what's going on.  

Well I said, "I'm sorry she's like that.  Hopefully it changes, but people don't usually change (imo)."

I also didn't just focus on the sexual withholding.  I meant all of her withholding... the meals, the cold/hot behavior, on top of the sexual aspect of their relationship.

It's a fact he gives more than her at this point, for weeks and weeks I think?  He pays for all their food/meals.  He's cooked for her. He's a very giving person in general it sounds like.

I think the best predictor of what someone's going to do in the future, is what they did in the past, for the most part. 

I said people don't, "usually," change, but that I hoped she changes. 

Edited by maritalbliss86
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57 minutes ago, maritalbliss86 said:

Well I said, "I'm sorry she's like that.  Hopefully it changes, but people don't usually change (imo)."

I also didn't just focus on the sexual withholding.  I meant all of her withholding... the meals, the cold/hot behavior, on top of the sexual aspect of their relationship.

It's a fact he gives more than her at this point, for weeks and weeks I think?  He pays for all their food/meals.  He's cooked for her. He's a very giving person in general it sounds like.

I think the best predictor of what someone's going to do in the future, is what they did in the past, for the most part. 

I said people don't, "usually," change, but that I hoped she changes. 

Yes if she turns out to be a person who is selfish I agree.  I don't agree with all of how you interpreted their interactions.  I don't think she was ever that into him.  That could change of course - but in this situation the first impressions she's made says to me she is not that into him and that their dynamic is off because he pushed for the covid tests so they could be intimate and she retreated then gave in.  Just doesn't seem overall very positive for the future.  She could change her behavior in bed if she desired- that's all I meant.  I don't think it's been weeks and weeks - and he didn't see her that often till now.

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