Question for the guys: How many messages does one need to send to get dates?

[Synerjist]

I've been online dating for a while now (circa 10-months), on Plenty Of Fish and OK Cupid (ain't really got the scratch right now to do a pay site)... admittedly a bit intermittently and on-and-off as I've gotten frustrated (and recently went through a move)... and while I hardly expect most girls to reply, I've only had a handful of short/dead-end conversations with girls as a result. From scanning the forums here-and-there, I guess it takes a good bit of messaging to find someone interested, I guess. I wasn't really counting, but I'm pretty sure I've sent out at least a few hundred messages per site.

 

My question for the (straight) guys is: How many messages do you generally have to send out to get a date or so a month? That's reasonable, right?

 

I'm thinking I need to be a bit more systematic about it. Message maybe three an evening on each site, roughly 2200 girls a year (yikes, that's a big number now that I do the math!!! ). Anyone else take this approach? Seems a little less frustrating than doing bigger chunks all at once... cuz, honestly, wading through enough demanding, depressing, and/or downright vacuous profiles to find even 20 okay ones really kills my faith in humanity (I'm not saying there aren't decent girls out there... just less than one would think).

[Habibi]

geeeeee...thats waaaaaaayyyy too much!!!!

maybe less but of higher quality ?

im not an online-dater but thats just way too many messages.

why dont you post a draft of any of your messages ? lets dissect it !!!!

[SeattleSigh]

I have been online dating since I split with my ex over a year and a half ago. I don't send out a lot of messages, but I do get dates. I think dumba is right. You have to focus on quality: the quality of the girl, your message, and your profile.

 

The first thing you need to do is be selective. Message girls that are a match for what you like AND what they want. It's one of the cool things about online dating. You get to match up interests, hobbies, life goals, etc. before having to meet up. Don't waste your time writing to every girl you think is cute. There has to be more there. I think you'll find that the aren't really that many women on OK or POF who are worth messaging once you are clear on what you want and what interests you.

 

The second thing you need to do is to write an intro message that breaks the ice, shows your personality, and shows that you read their profile and have something in common with them. It doesn't have to be long. Just a few sentences.

 

The final thing you need to do is to take a critical look at your profile. You need to think about how your profile would look to a person reading it for the first time. Do you sound appealing? If you don't, re-write it and get new pictures. Don't lie though. maybe have someone else look at it to critique it.

 

Oh, almost forgot....another thing to consider is how many messages you send a woman who has responded before asking her for a date. I don't usually send more than three or four messages before asking for a date. I don't want an online relationship, and I think it's better to meet in person ASAP. I don't want to waste my time talking with someone with whom I might not have chemistry. I want to find out if there is something there.

[markfromark]

ain't really got the scratch right now to do a pay site

 

roughly 2200 girls a year

 

On the pay-for-date sites your messages will not get answered with any more frequency. Save your money.

 

 

2200 messages a year? How many women have you approached in person in this year?

 

Take a break from online dating and talk to one new woman every day. Does not matter who but one woman you don't know.

[Synerjist]

geeeeee...thats waaaaaaayyyy too much!!!!

maybe less but of higher quality ?

im not an online-dater but thats just way too many messages.

why dont you post a draft of any of your messages ? lets dissect it !!!!

 

Well, I don't really have too many to pull from since I re-up'd my online profiles last time around... but here's a few I could dredge up:

 

"Hey there, gotta say I love your taste in music. I'm a huge fan of Floyd and AIC in particular. I'm also a big fan of cars... mainly modern cars, but some classics too. Are you going to the Allure of the Automobile Exhibit at the Portland Art Museum? In any case, you seem more than interesting, drop me a line sometime."

 

"Hey there, just wanted to say your profile caught my eye. I saw you mentioned Anthony Bourdain on there, I'm a huge fan of him as well. He's just a great combo of cook, traveler, writer, and rock 'n' roll attitude. Anywho, I think we could really get on about cuisine, music, and politics over coffee or whatnot. Drop me line if you're interested. In the meantime, have a great day."

 

"Getting into cars? That's cool. It's been my passion for a while and the main reason I got my degree in mechanical design. It's also great that you say you don't have to get all manly to do so either... in fact, you're an artist with the makeup, IMHO. I totally respect that. Let me know if you want to chat sometime."

 

"Hey there, I'd say I'm fairly intelligent (I'd like to think)... about fast cars even (I'll excite/bore you with the details of how a Gurney flap works if you'd like... LOL!). Also, I'm not a fan of drama, insincerity, and caring much about what other people think either. Would love to connect on that over a dram of Scotch, if you'd like... possibly some ranting about electioneering and the subprime fallout as well. I can picture us being on the same page on quite a few things."

 

As you can see, I mostly try to connect on things I might have in common with women. Sometimes its cooking/cuisine, music, political or cultural views, favorite shows, whatever... conversation starters. A lot of profiles don't offer up to much, but thankfully I'm into and appreciate a wide range of topics so it's not too tough to find a few things worth connecting on. I just don't ever get an replies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been online dating since I split with my ex over a year and a half ago. I don't send out a lot of messages, but I do get dates. I think dumba is right. You have to focus on quality: the quality of the girl, your message, and your profile.

 

The first thing you need to do is be selective. Message girls that are a match for what you like AND what they want. It's one of the cool things about online dating. You get to match up interests, hobbies, life goals, etc. before having to meet up. Don't waste your time writing to every girl you think is cute. There has to be more there. I think you'll find that the aren't really that many women on OK or POF who are worth messaging once you are clear on what you want and what interests you.

 

I am trying to be very selective... but at the same time, I'm not trying to be overly eager to eliminate everyone who's not ABSOLUTELY perfect, either. I think a lot of people do that too much. I try to be pragmatic about things overall. I mean, who knows who you're going to have great chemistry with, and it might be someone with not a awful lot in common. I won't message someone without outright opposite sociopolitical views, of course... but on the same token I'm pretty sure as a white wine guy I can still fall in love with a red wine girl, if you know what I mean.

 

I just try to sift though and find two- or three-women I'm attracted to physically, then go from there. A lot are vacuous, a lot might be too far off in terms of their interests/viewpoints, and some are looking for things I might not be... but generally I find at least a handful and message the ones that seem have the most in common going on. Try again the next day.

 

 

 

 

The second thing you need to do is to write an intro message that breaks the ice, shows your personality, and shows that you read their profile and have something in common with them. It doesn't have to be long. Just a few sentences.

 

The final thing you need to do is to take a critical look at your profile. You need to think about how your profile would look to a person reading it for the first time. Do you sound appealing? If you don't, re-write it and get new pictures. Don't lie though. maybe have someone else look at it to critique it.

 

I think so. I've tried a number of approaches. None seem very good. I've had some people look at my profile an generally got really good feedback. Some others have (mainly online) have sort of gimmicky, anecdotal suggestions that I've tried on-and-off. Some will say you HAVE to put humor in it, others will say NEVER put humor in it, it doesn't translate. I've tried both, though I tend to agree with the later. Frankly, I have no clue what I'm doing wrong.

 

 

 

 

Oh, almost forgot....another thing to consider is how many messages you send a woman who has responded before asking her for a date. I don't usually send more than three or four messages before asking for a date. I don't want an online relationship, and I think it's better to meet in person ASAP. I don't want to waste my time talking with someone with whom I might not have chemistry. I want to find out if there is something there.

 

I generally go with three exchanges as a general rule... then I out that in their court. I'm not on dating sites to have pen pals, so if it doesn't go anywhere, I move on.

[RyanJ]

So good that you posted first messages - first messages, followed by profile, are the two most common problem areas for men.

 

With a bit of improvement to your first messages, and likely your profile, you'll get much better response rates. As a benchmark, though: 20-30% response rate is a solid goal.

 

Remove any "drop me a line" "get back to me" "if you'd like" "if you're interested" etc. Write as if a reply is expected rather than asking for one.

 

Here's how I would edit your first message (also what sort of subject lines are you using?):

 

Subject I Was the Drummer for Pink Floyd (Catchy subject lines are KEY to getting your messages opened)

 

"Hey.. I'm a huge fan of Floyd and AIC in particular (insert random related experience like "Their live shows are absolutely unreal") (Edited out car bit, one commonality is OK)"

 

She might say "Blah blah, went to one once." "Never been" "You weren't the drummer for Pink Floyd!"

 

And you could reply "Nice, so you're a pretty outgoing person then? It seems like this site is full of girls who aren't down to earth at all" or "Really? Are you more the indoorsy type?" or "Haha oh no, you found me out. Promise you'll keep my secret?"

 

Why would this work?

 

1) Assumes response, which communicates confidence. You're not trying to write long-winded emails stressing commonalities.

 

2) It's much more like real conversation. Say you saw a girl with a Pink Floyd shirt on at the grocery store, and she had a muscle car on her key chain. You're less likely to say "Hey! Pink Floyd is awesome, and muscle cars are too.. etc." but "Hey.. Floyd is absolutely rad. Their live performances are incredible" then wait for her response, introduce yourself, tell her you think she's cute, fluff for a bit and ask her out.

 

3) Your subject line makes her think a bit. Is this guy REALLY a former rock star? Is he just being funny? She'll be looking for follow up info in your message and won't find any. It's challenging. Some girls might write you off as being a nut, but any girl who's that uptight isn't a girl you want anyway. It shows that you're cool and laid back enough to joke around and not take things too seriously.

 

4) It's flirty and fun. Before you start to establish common interests and build a connection, she has to be attracted to you. If you jump right into building a connection before you establish attraction, you'll end up as a friend.

[amipushy]

These are the key things I look for.

 

"Hey there, gotta say I love your taste in music. I'm a huge fan of Floyd and AIC in particular. I'm also a big fan of cars... mainly modern cars, but some classics too. Are you going to the Allure of the Automobile Exhibit at the Portland Art Museum? In any case, you seem more than interesting, drop me a line sometime."

 

Thats the best. Keep it short, women get loads of mesages so you have to condense what you want to say, show you have read her profile and have things in common and keep it real. Don't say "drop me a line sometime" - "sometime" never comes. Even if she does think your interesting and have things in common she wont feel any sense of urgency to reply so will just move on to the next message and forget all about you.

[EgoJoe]

I have a good profile, some good pics and (if I'm initiating) just say, "Hi, my name is Joe." and if they've clicked meet me (I get that a lot because of my current pic) and I say, "So you want to meet me? What inspired you to click yes?"

 

Then I usually get, "You're cute" or "You're handsome" etc.

 

Then I make fun of them and establish flirtatious rapport. After that I intentionally bore them to death to see what they'll do. If they initiate at all, I set a date.

[notalady]

Agree that you should keep the message short but interesting.

 

I find it effective if you bring up a topic to discuss, like asking her opinion on something that she appears to be interested in or good at (from what you can gather from her profile). For okcupid, might also be a good idea to ask about the questions they answered, try to start a conversation that way.

[Gilson]

I spent about two years on Match beofre I got a date. That last...4 dates I think. We really hit it off, and if it weren't for other circumstances it might've worked out. A few months later I met someone else and it lasted mine months (until almost two weeks ago). It ended do to other circumstances including it turned out to be a long distance relationship after she moved for work.

 

I have no strategy. I let them come to me primarily I guess. I think I might be a little too selective and likely have no right to be. On match, if they come up in my matches and I like them, I say I'm interested. If I find them on my own and I like them, I favorite them. If they look at my profile more than once, we might be onto something.

 

I messaged women early on when I first started with the online dating, but I got tired of no responses.

 

Perhaps - since I've only been single again a short bit, and haven't even exchanged belongings yet - I shouldn't even be on a dating site yet.

[The_Seeker]

I've been online dating for a while now (circa 10-months), on Plenty Of Fish and OK Cupid (ain't really got the scratch right now to do a pay site)... admittedly a bit intermittently and on-and-off as I've gotten frustrated (and recently went through a move)... and while I hardly expect most girls to reply, I've only had a handful of short/dead-end conversations with girls as a result. From scanning the forums here-and-there, I guess it takes a good bit of messaging to find someone interested, I guess. I wasn't really counting, but I'm pretty sure I've sent out at least a few hundred messages per site.

 

I know the questions you have are for guys. But I thought you might like a girl perspective.

 

I did POF and link removed.

 

I preferred link removed and canceled POF. POF in my location is an automatic joke.

 

My question for the (straight) guys is: How many messages do you generally have to send out to get a date or so a month? That's reasonable, right?

 

Depends on the girl.

 

The guy I'm dating [ Mr.T], sent me a wink. I thought he was cute despite the fact there's a huge age gap according to a lot of people. But whatever. Anyway getting to the story, I sent him a thank you email for winking at me. Funny thing during the first date he mentioned he didn't expect a response from me when he sent me a wink and that I would even agree to meeting him for a date because of our age difference. So what I'm trying to say is anything can happen. Anyway going on a tangent...

 

 

Then the convo start from there. The email was consistent. I like that. So far he seems to act like a consistent guy. Anyway going on a tangent, he emailed me 6 times because I replied to his email 6 times. It was like he sends me a message in the morning and then I send him a message at night. It repeats. I had some concerns and he addressed them right away which was great to show that he cared. So I agreed to go on a date with him. It took one week of email. We had to schedule a date on Friday before Father's Day because I was heading to celebrate my friend's birthday party the week before when I agreed to go on a date with him.

 

That showed him that he was flexible. So far I went on a second date with him on Friday.

 

He asked me out twice. Planned twice. Even on the first date I suggested an activity after dinner.

 

So far, he's my type of a guy. But I still need to get to know him.

 

No, I haven't date other guys just yet. Or have other options. Just so far enjoying knowing him.

 

I'm thinking I need to be a bit more systematic about it. Message maybe three an evening on each site, roughly 2200 girls a year (yikes, that's a big number now that I do the math!!! ).

 

Uh, you can do that see if you get any response. Just to warn you, you will get a HIGHER amount of messages that made lead to nowhere.

 

 

Anyone else take this approach?

 

Nope. I sent messages to people I was interested in or vice versa.

 

I remembered I got like 50 messages in one day after I signed up that I had to write a message that I wasn't interested them because what I don't want and need in a guy. For example, heavy tattoos and piercings. A lot of them mostly had them. I am not going to settle for something I don't want. I'd be wasting both of our time if I did that. Mind you, this was on POF.

 

Seems a little less frustrating than doing bigger chunks all at once... cuz, honestly, wading through enough demanding, depressing, and/or downright vacuous profiles to find even 20 okay ones really kills my faith in humanity (I'm not saying there aren't decent girls out there... just less than one would think).

 

Depends on your location. Match is way better in my location than it is POF.

 

Total messages that Mr.T have exchanged to me is 16. No we are not exclusive yet. I'm just going to enjoy myself at the moment.

[The_Seeker]

What I bolded is what I disagree on.

 

They may want whatever personality traits in a guy, the question is whether there is chemistry AKA dating. Even if you have those qualities has a guy, will she be attracted to you?

 

The reason I disagreed with the statement is because I dated a guy who tried to fit the criteria what I don't want. He appeared to have quite a personality in the messages. When in person, he was standoffish and acted like I don't need a girlfriend or want a relationship or heck even go on a date. That's how he behaved.

 

So OP, if I were you, I would message a girl I find attractive or would have chemistry unless she stated what she doesn't want in a guy.

 

For example, I wrote in my profile i don't want a guy who has tattoos and piercings, and count calories because I feel like i'm dating a girl. Lo and behold if you aren't that guy, then message me. If you message me when you do one of those things, I block. Yes I mentioned in my profile that I will block if they do not read my profile.

[Thorshammer]

Online dating has human minds attached to it, and human minds are hard to figure out, especially since they do this at their leisure, this factor creates a huge wall of inconsistencies. I have gone from having below average women ignore me because of something like not having a car, or not being too tall, to dating a very beautiful woman who falls for me by the second call. Its about timing, keeping it simple, knowing your potential and what potentials you can attract, and her hopefully taking the site seriously.

[BadAdvice]

I would take out the hey theres, whatnots, and anywhos.

 

I like that you make it personal. My biggest issue with dating sites was that no one seemed genuine. I read every message like it was sent out to many women. I ended up not meeting anyone and closing my accounts.

 

Make sure you don't message the same girl twice with an opening message.

 

RyanJ gave you good advice.

[Synerjist]

Yeah, I don't think I'm doing too bad at all with my messaging... good to know... it's just trying to figure out how many you've got to put out there before something comes back. I've been doing this for about ten months now and only had a handful of replies, none of which have gone anywhere.

 

I always put quality before quantity, but the later is quite obviously part of the formula.

[Sportster2005]

RyanJ makes some excellent points. The only thing I would add is try to stand out from the crowd. Remember women receive an inordinate amount of email compared to men. If your subject line is weak and she has 50 to 100 emails to go through she will likely not read it and delete it. Trying to be original and unique is a balancing act. You don't want to cross the line from original to eccentric. Also look at your competitors profiles. Avoid the normal profile fodder and cliches. If anything your profile should not look like any others. After all you are an individual and your profile should reflect this.

 

Online is a double edge sword. It's good that we have a high number of potential women to date and you know they are single. The draw back is you are competing with hundreds or thousands of men depending on your location and age group. That is why it is good to balance your efforts between real life and online. And real life I don't mean bars. You will just run into the competition factor. Competition isn't necessarily bad it just is another hurdle. Seek places where you are likely to find single women in a natural setting. You are more likely to get an opportunity to chat without men lining up to compete with you. Unless your gorgeous and rich that is. Then go to anywhere where you want if you can confidently beat the competition every time.

 

I generally send out two emails. If I don't get a response then another two. After a month I delete my account and try a few months later. You don't want your face to get familiar on a dating site.

[LanceVanceDance]

Just send messages to the girls you like without getting your hopes up. If she replies great, if not move on... I haven't calculated a precise ratio but I'd say about one girl out of four/five writes back. Then from these conversations, again about one out of four/five can lead to a date. Quality is more important than quantity anyway so I wouldn't worry about how many girls write back, if I get ignored I'll consider it's the girl's loss and won't think twice about it.

[Synerjist]

Just send messages to the girls you like without getting your hopes up. If she replies great, if not move on... I haven't calculated a precise ratio but I'd say about one girl out of four/five writes back. Then from these conversations, again about one out of four/five can lead to a date. Quality is more important than quantity anyway so I wouldn't worry about how many girls write back, if I get ignored I'll consider it's the girl's loss and won't think twice about it.

^

Yeah, I've heard a few people say that... 20-25% seems crazy to to me. I'm down around 1% or less... probably less. I guess that's why I was asking. And, yeah, I don't get too worked up about a no reply, though I've only had one date in the last year and she messaged me first (which almost never happens), so some result is better than no result, especially over the long haul.

 

Also, I gotta say I'm not finding the short daily burst approach to be all that practical in practice. While I find it generally frustrating as hell sifting through enough profiles in one sitting to send out twenty messages, maybe once or twice a week, but I think I'm going to have to switch back to that. I'm just too busy some days to bother with it. You know, it'd be really nice if an attractive lady messaged me every once in a while. I feel like I'm doing ALL the work here.

[Thorshammer]

My current girlfriend i met on pof. I started with, "hey how are you? Does your name mean you train in martial arts?" That led to confusion, i was sinking fast as my jokes werent working and her replies were 2 or 4 words only, but i kept pushing it because honestly, she was really pretty (she even closed her account and removed her pics in the middle of our convo). She gave me her number when i asked for it, which surprised me (I learned later on that she was talking with 2 other guys before me, who blew it that she never met them- one was a perv, the other had issues). On the phone is when she fell, thats when i asked in-depth questions, charmed her, and shared what made me... me. I learned we have a lot in common, very rare hard to find things.

 

At that same time i had 2 other women i was talking to on the phone. They both started with a "hey, how are you"- followed with something about their profile. I didnt scan their profile, and i didnt send them a story in their inbox. It made no difference in my experience when i did that. Plus, no one is a princess, its not homework- no one is hot shhh that you have to sit their and read their profile just so they can reply. I did the same thing with my last ex who i met from myspace.

[Synerjist]

See, that's good to know. A lot of advice is seemingly over-stressing super specific, über unique, and utterly elegant openers... and while I do my best to relate, inquire, and personalize it's not always that easy. Succinct and relatable is generally my approach. I dunno why it's not working though. I'm pretty good at holding a conversation once it gets going. I'm all about getting onto phone numbers if I could get any... LOL!

[Alberich]

See, that's good to know. A lot of advice is seemingly over-stressing super specific, über unique, and utterly elegant openers.

 

Quite right. The content of your messages is very likely not a problem. What hasn't been stressed nearly enough in the responses here, is the quality of your profile pictures. EgoJoe and SeattleSigh have the right idea.

 

I have a good profile, some good pics and (if I'm initiating) just say, "Hi, my name is Joe." and if they've clicked meet me (I get that a lot because of my current pic) and I say, "So you want to meet me? What inspired you to click yes?"

 

Then I usually get, "You're cute" or "You're handsome" etc.

 

Do you sound appealing? If you don't, re-write it and get new pictures.

 

Note that your experience with online dating is by no means atypical for men, but your persistence may be. Well done on that note. Back when I was trying online dating, I was sending messages at about the rate that you've been. I wouldn't need all my fingers to count the number of responses I received, the majority of which were along the lines of, "Thanks, but I'm now involved. Good luck with your search." I have to say, I did appreciate those responses even though the message wasn't what I was hoping for. After a number of months, I realized how much time and effort I was wasting. Rather than devoting more of your time to online dating, I strongly encourage you to let it go. If you're anything like me, it'll be a load off your mind.

[Synerjist]

Quite right. The content of your messages is very likely not a problem. What hasn't been stressed nearly enough in the responses here, is the quality of your profile pictures.

 

Really? I thought mine were pretty good. Any suggestions?

[Alberich]

Really? I thought mine were pretty good. Any suggestions?

Sorry, Synerjist. I read my post again after seeing your reply and it does read as though I had specific ideas about your pictures. I don't, I'm afraid. I simply feel that the focus, in this thread, has been on what you've been saying, and that focus may be misplaced. As for suggestions, I'd again urge you not to bother with online dating. It's eaten up too much of your valuable time and energy already.

[Synerjist]

^

Thanks, but that's really not the point of the thread. I'm doing my best to use my other avenues to dating (through friends, going out and meeting strangers) but that's not worked really well for me either of late, so on-line is definitely a good option no matter how bad I am at it. A number of guys have said they've done okay with it after getting the hang of it.

 

I don't mind investing some time into it as you get the opportunity to meet people that you otherwise might not, and filter out incompatibility (starting with them actually being single, which is the BIGGEST pain in the real world). I just need to get my reply rate up from 1-in-200 to 1-in-5, even 1-in-10.

 

I've got an online dating profile writing guide that someone who got to those odds and was ultimately successful, that I'm using to rewrite my profile. Everyone says pictures are critical as well so I'm going to spend some time getting some new ones. I've got a pretty good camera, I just need to get a tripod, get some tips on lighting and whatnot.

[Generation]

I had a success rate of 5% so 1/20. Also had 6 or 7 women message me first to set things up. All of this over the course of 3 months.

 

The best advice I can give anyone is to have a REALLY GOOD PICTURE! Which I guess is kind of a nice way of saying you gotta look presentable first. But a quality picture will set you apart from other guys. Then it's being a good conversationalist.

 

Edit: think I misread the initial question, how many messages to the same person before a date? I don't really have a strategy for that. Some women I'll message a handful of times before anything happens cause I genuinely wanna get to know them, other times it'll only be after a few messages. Most times for the few messages we've exchanged, the woman initiates the first meet like "hey we should meet / grab coffee"

 

About your systematic approach though, it's good but don't limit yourself. 2-3 a night is good. Also, it'll take you a mile further by putting an extra ounce of effort into your messages, you can think of it as an extra 3 minutes per message cause guaranteed you will find a way to improve it in 3 minutes. I know that's pretty obvious advice but it's not practiced very often, everyone wants instant gratification with little effort. All it really takes is a little attention to detail. Considering most people don't follow this practice, you will actually look competent in their eyes. Though take that advice with a grain of salt, you don't want to be reaching too far either. I spent an extra 3 minutes editing this post.