4th grader challenging teacher and he is winning......

[cdmcbride]

We are meeting with the teacher again this evening. Our son is in 4th grade.

 

 

We met with her October 11th because our son's grades this this have drastically declined. The school scale is from 1 being the the lowest grade to 4 being the highest. He is in the 1 to 2 range so far this year. In the past years, there were very few 2's - mostly 3's and 4's on assignments, tests, homework, classwork.

 

The school year started September 1st and he is failing all core classes. His teacher is new to the area and district so there is no previous parent comments in regards to her teaching.

 

When we went to meet on the 11th, she showed us class work that was turned in with his name written on the page; however, the rest of the paper was blank. As far as I am concerned, he was directly defying her. I feel that it is a show of power. The conseqences to his blank paper was a bad grade which we did not find out about until a week later. He does test all teachers and adults to see how far he can push but I have never seen the adult not take control.

 

Needless to say, he was grounded for a week after the conference. No video games, tv, computer or electronics. Now he is only allowed 1 hour a day for electronics - otherwise he should be reading or playing legos, etc. As parents, I felt that pretty good punishment and if he worked hard at school he would be able to earn more time for his electronics. He has been working pretty hard at showing responsibility.

 

Tuesday eve, our son brought home a blank poster board with a large packet of questions that he must complete for a research assignment about piranha. He said that he did not have much time in class to work on it and the questions were mostly unanswered or wrong. This project was due the following day. Needless to say - it was mostly my homework. We printed off the facts from the internet. My son said that at school he was given 5 different websites to find the facts but there wasn't much on piranha (I am waiting to see the list to check myself). He said there was no book in the library or class library. I am not sure yet if my son was messing around and not doing the assignment or the teacher did not provide adequate resources.

 

I volunteered at the school yesterday to assist the kids in their 'museum' where they were going to display their projects. It was a mad house. I walked into kids (60 of them) running everywhere, tearing large amounts of paper from rolls and throwing on the ground, taping and stapling to blackboards and whiteboards. Breaking other kids projects.... I couldn't believe it. (There were other parents and one teacher - my son's teacher was not there). My son (and lots of other kids) were running around like idiots and nobody was telling them to stop. I asked the other teacher what the plan was - was there some structure to the decorating? She said that the kids had prepared a plan but did not have it. Nice.....

 

My son's teacher finally came into the room and I asked her what was GOING ON? I told her that I was disappointed by the lack of direction and waste and she looked shocked. Then she said - isn't this your group of boys? (No clue that I was in charge of anything). I actually had to leave the room (time out for me) because it was so loud and crazy. When I went back in - the teacher walked up to one boy and said how nice his project looked; however, did not seem to notice the chaos all over.

 

This is why I am concerned. She allowed the behavior, did not have any structure, no consequences for the behavior. It appeared that she was oblivious.

 

I don't want to move my son to another classroom or school. I don't want to dislike the teacher, but I cannot let my son be allowed to be in control of this adult and lose a year worth of education because his teacher is not firm. I was told by the school secretary that many other teachers were complaining about the noise and the principal was out of the building and this would never be allowed if he was there.

 

I am thinking I will give it 2 more weeks. Maybe visit the classroom and observe during this time and if it doesn't look like she is in control - move my son. He will lose his friends and the school that he has spent 5 years, but at 4th grade, there is too much to learn and it won't be easy to catch up if he falls behind.

 

I guess at this point there is not a real good answer but I would like some thoughts.....

[sidehop]

I'd honestly would like to know more if I were you in your shoes also. It's hard to tell whether it's the teacher or the system of the school in general is allowing your son and children to behave this way. There seems to be something lacking with this teacher for sure.

[abitbroken]

I would tell you to encourage your son to complete his school work. He is only hurting himself by not doing it. Do not do it for him. If he could not complete it in class and is allowed to bring it home, do not let it be "your homework", just simply guide him and encourage him to complete it himself. You can even take him to the public library if you wanted. You can't worry about what other kids do. Apparently, other kids are passing. Also, no matter if we had the best teacher or not, when the teacher left the room, sometimes our class did silly things too.

 

Anyway, instead of totally demonizing the teacher, I would teach your child to follow through. He will meet teachers and bosses and supervisors throughout his life and not doing your work is not an answer for it. If you decide you want your child in another classroom, then fine, but don't be shocked if he is failing if he pulls the same thing.

[wiseoldwoman]

You might want to consider looking at the political process that's taking so much funding away from schools. From your account, there are two teachers total to handle 60 4th graders. How can there be any hope of organization, assistance, control, or anything else happening there? The woman has to manage to provide resources and oversight to 30 children all at one time. All day long. And deal with kids who "test" them - and whose parents then blame the teacher. The teacher is doing what she's supposed to be doing - failing him when he turns in blank homework. You, on the other hand, are permitting him an hour a day on electronics and permitting him to play with other toy the rest of the time and consider that a punishment. Why are you not overseeing his homework and making certain it's done? And why are you doing his homework for him when he's clearly manipulating you? The teacher may or may not be a great teacher. But your son is going to have to deal with a lot of not so great teachers and bosses in his lifetime. "Fixing" this for him by shopping around for the perfect teacher is certainly not the message you should be sending him. The message should be that you step up and make sure he quits his game playing and starts taking responsibility for himself and his actions, rather than being so ready to dump them on a teacher who has 29 other students to deal with every day.

[cdmcbride]

Why are you not overseeing his homework and making certain it's done?

It isn't his homework - it is his SCHOOL work. His homework is always done. He had two hours to at home to complete a research assignment that he did not have materials to complete it with. I have no control of what happens in the classroom. If she cannot handle her responsibilities in the classroom - she is failing my child. I have offered multiple times to volunteer in the classroom and have in the past years been in the classroom 2x a week for hours at a time to help. She claims she does not need volunteers.

 

[wiseoldwoman]

Yes, you do have control over what happens in the classroom with your son. You make sure he knows what YOU expect of him there - and that is to do his work to the best of his ability, regardless of the circumstances. She already showed you work he's handed in with nothing but his name, yet you're ready and willing to buy his excuse that he didn't finish this project because there were no resources available for him. Even though he has a computer and she provided him with websites. And a library - and you're really buy into his story that there was nothing there about piranhas??? Come on.

 

Volunteers are not what's needed in a classroom. They generally make a job more difficult, not less, because the teacher has to then spend time communicating with the volunteer rather than being able to focus on the classroom. They need smaller class sizes or professional assistants.

 

Your child is failing himself. And you're not only allowing it, but allowing him to blame someone else. If that's what you want to do, go for it. I'm sure the teacher won't be sorry to see the backside of a child whose parent accepts her son's "testing" of her. One less child who refuses to take responsibility will give her that much more time to attend to the other 29 children she deals with. I say don't wait two weeks. Move your son now.

[WindowTo]

I would highly advise taking off your parent blinders to look at this situation. If your child is getting 1s and 2s and the rest of the class is averaging higher, the problem is specific to your child. If the rest of the class is completing their schoolwork and your child is leaving it blank, then the problem is specific to your child. Parents are always quick to accept a childs blaming something on a teacher so the parent does not have to admit that either they or their child have failed , but this is not always the rational conclusion. Kids can be especially deceptive in these types of situations. You almost seem to agree with your childs motivation for handing in blank schoolwork, which seems amorphous at best. At the end of the day, it is great if a teacher can come up with creative ways to get lazy kids to do schoolwork, but at the end of the day they have to apply effective methods for teaching everyone, not just focus on the kids who hand in blank schoolwork. It would make more sense for YOU to be the one setting up consequences for your kid not doing his work, because a teachers only real consequences that she can inflict are bad grades, and you do not seem to agree with her only tool here.

[Stay_home]

Without any real structure and control your son as well as the other kids in the class are at a disadvantage because the learning environment is so chaotic. If it was me, personally, I would pull my son out of class and put him in another 4th grade class. Then I would tell him to straighten his act up and no more screwing around. If he started cutting up again then I'd just strip him of his privledges once again. If the taking away of electronics and outside play doesn't work, then I'll be introducing him to Mr. Belt.

[cdmcbride]

If your child is getting 1s and 2s and the rest of the class is averaging higher, the problem is specific to your child. If the rest of the class is completing their schoolwork and your child is leaving it blank, then the problem is specific to your child.

 

I am unaware of the other children's grades - I do not find it appropriate to ask. I suppose that I could ask where my son fits in the class.

 

I am only concerned with my own child and as far as I am concerned, this is a specific problem to him. He is challenging her and she is not giving him immediate consequences. The teacher is NOT communicating with us regarding these issues. We are trying to get information and not 2 weeks later. How can I deal with him not turning in his class work if she does not immediately deal with it by contacting us? As a parent, I am powerless 2 weeks after the event.

[cdmcbride]

Without any real structure and control your son as well as the other kids in the class are at a disadvantage because the learning environment is so chaotic. If it was me, personally, I would pull my son out of class and put him in another 4th grade class. Then I would tell him to straighten his act up and no more screwing around. If he started cutting up again then I'd just strip him of his privledges once again. If the taking away of electronics and outside play doesn't work, then I'll be introducing him to Mr. Belt.

 

Agreed - he doesn't mess with us. He knows that if he screws up at home, he is in big trouble. I expect the same at school. A teacher allowing them to run crazy is unacceptable to me. How do I tell her that I expect him to behave and her to follow through without telling her that I think she is not doing her job and it take control. He knows that if we hear he is being disrepectful that at home he will be punished; however, at school, she needs to be the deliverer of punishment. A few times missing recess or sitting in the front of class would not be too difficult. I would be happy if she used him as an example. He won't continue messing around.

[cdmcbride]

You almost seem to agree with your childs motivation for handing in blank schoolwork, which seems amorphous at best.

 

I was surely ashamed at him. I trembled when I saw it and almost spanked him right there in front of the teacher. She said to him "Sweetheart, you really need to listen to Mrs. D" in the sweetest little voice she could muster. I have told my son that if he did not turn off the video game that I would twist off his thumbs. A strong parent compared to a sweet little teacher - we are about as far apart as can be. This child needs to be dealt with firmly at the first instance of testing the boundary. She didn't do it and now they will both have problems for the year.

[abitbroken]

I was surely ashamed at him. I trembled when I saw it and almost spanked him right there in front of the teacher. She said to him "Sweetheart, you really need to listen to Mrs. D" in the sweetest little voice she could muster. I have told my son that if he did not turn off the video game that I would twist off his thumbs. A strong parent compared to a sweet little teacher - we are about as far apart as can be. This child needs to be dealt with firmly at the first instance of testing the boundary. She didn't do it and now they will both have problems for the year.

 

Some people that speak softly can be just as effective. if she was a push over, she would give him all 4's. He has pushed his boundary and is now suffering the consequences by getting poor grades which will surely prevent him from doing what he wants at school and at home. he may not feel the effects immediately, but they will happen in the long run. She can't really punish him for getting bad grades - that's not how school works. otherwise kids who have learning disabilities, etc, would be regularly humiliated at the front of class. The teacher is acting appropriate by appealing to you, the parents, rather than keeping him after school, etc, which makes most parents angry. I mean, you are not even following your own advice. If you child acts up, you aren't taking away priveleges, away and letting him know if he continues, he loses his video game for the day or more, you are telling him you'll break his thumbs off. If a teacher told a child that, the school could get sued because inevitably it will be taken as not just a figure of speech. The teacher is there to teach, not to parent. The teacher is in a tough spot. If your child were just not understanding, she could take the child aside and explain things in a different way, but turning in blank pages is not a learning issue. Unless you think your son has other possible issues outside of defiance - such as dyslexia, concentration iissues. There is also laziness if he knows you will do his homework for him.

[Miss Firecracker]

I don't blame the teacher for this. She cannot force him to work. That is his choice.

 

I would have him tested to rule out any learning disabilities. Many times they do not show up until the work gets a little harder.

[Ariel85]

So, you're upset with the teacher because she's not disciplining your out of control child?

 

This problem is really yours to own. It's not the school systems responsibility to parent your child. It's yours.

 

Most kids behave in class because they know the punishment they would suffer at home if they did.

 

Parenting begins, and ends, at home. Teach your son there are consequences and make him accountable for not doing his school work.

 

It really isn't the teachers job to do this. If she takes time from class to acknowledge and deal with your kid, then that's less time she can teach the kids who are behaved. Is that fair to the rest of them?

[DN]

I can see that this is a joint problem. Certainly children need strong parenting but they also need a disciplined environment at school in which to learn and it doesn't seem as if this teacher can maintain that. The best solution is a joint approach but if the teacher cannot control her class then perhaps you should consider moving your son.

 

Thirty children in a class is a lot but it was about the same when I was in school (many years ago) and the teachers maintained control then.

[Snny]

He knows that if we hear he is being disrepectful that at home he will be punished; however, at school, she needs to be the deliverer of punishment. A few times missing recess or sitting in the front of class would not be too difficult.

I agree with the seat changes to minimize distractions... but it isn't a teacher's job to punish a student. Also, it entirely depends on the school administration's protocol of dealing with disruptive behaviors because THEY'RE in charge to telling teachers how to manage their classrooms. I know some schools no longer allow teachers to write referrals or force teachers to accept work that is 5+ weeks late because it's no longer the teacher's job to teach children how to be responsible- it's the parents.

 

That is the school systems of today. A teacher's job is to assess academic progress and that's it.

 

So, you're upset with the teacher because she's not disciplining your out of control child?

 

This problem is really yours to own. It's not the school systems responsibility to parent your child. It's yours.

 

Most kids behave in class because they know the punishment they would suffer at home if they did.

 

Parenting begins, and ends, at home. Teach your son there are consequences and make him accountable for not doing his school work.

 

It really isn't the teachers job to do this. If she takes time from class to acknowledge and deal with your kid, then that's less time she can teach the kids who are behaved. Is that fair to the rest of them?

I 110% agree with this.

[DN]

but it isn't a teacher's job to punish a student.

Huh? In which educational system is that?

That is the school systems of today. A teacher's job is to assess academic progress and that's it.

That isn't teaching - that is something entirely different.

[journeynow]

Needless to say, he was grounded for a week after the conference. No video games, tv, computer or electronics. Now he is only allowed 1 hour a day for electronics - otherwise he should be reading or playing legos, etc.

 

It's good that you have consequences. I suggest that since this is now an ongoing problem, and you don't find out soon enough if it is improving, take all these privileges away completely and make it his job to show you finished schoolwork that has been graded by the teacher. Make him earn back his privileges, and don't make it immediate, make it over a time frame so that he can establish a pattern of accomplishment. Even legos can be taken away, and give him a list of things he can do instead. Give him extra homework, projects of your own design, chores around the house, etc. Make it clear that this is about him, his behavior and responsibilities, and not about the teacher or the school. He's the one you care about.

 

I understand about the difficulty with communication between you and the school, and the problem with delayed information. It may not get better, especially into middle school and high school. It's good that you are addressing this now, and being involved. I agree with the suggestion of getting him tested for learning problems.

[Firiel]

Huh? In which educational system is that?

 

Sadly, a lot of them. My mother-in-law is a teacher, and she isn't even allowed to give out lunch detentions. In a lot of places, teachers are very limited in their disciplinary tactics.

[Moontiger]

From my understanding teacher have very little power any more. Just like Firiel said, they are not allowed to do very much. And, sadly its that way with almost every aspect of the educational system in America. I had a friend who worked as a bus diver for a few years. She had a child her on her bus who would scream, swear, pick on other kids etc. She wrote this child up over 50 times before the kid was finally removed from the bus.

 

OP, if you child is accustomed to challenging all the adults in his life that needs to be addressed by you as the parents. He must understand that adults (specifically teachers) are in charge not him. It sounds like you have put consequences in place for his behavior in this case which is good. IMO, you need to make it clear to him that if he doesn't start behaving in school and being respectful to adults there will be more consequences.

[Snny]

Huh? In which educational system is that?

I am not allowed to disclose that publicly. But I have worked with administrators who strictly said they will deal with student issues, detentions, suspensions, referral process, parent conference appointments, etc. and that teachers are to make observations, document them, and contact parents.

 

On a lighter note, wouldn't it be better if teachers HELPED and guided children in making the right decisions than punishing them? There are some children who are overly punished at home and their views on how adults interact with them are warped. This is a different generation than what many of us grew up with.

 

That isn't teaching - that is something entirely different.

I agree. However, there are a lot of school board members and administrators telling their teachers that they cannot inflict punishment for a teacher's job protection. Part of the reason is due to parent complaints in the past about how their child was "disciplined" at school by teachers or the principal and how some teachers and admins were fired for it. A lot of parents feel that discipline should take place in the home than at a school, which is why teachers/admins just make calls home in hopes that the parents will do something about it.

 

It's the parents' role to raise the child as a teacher' job is to educate them and help them succeed. That is how we are dealing with this generation to avoid crossing into ethical issues of punishment that won't "psychologically damage" a child. It's weird, but a lot of public school systems are playing it safe to promote positive learning environments.

[chitown9]

OP, have you ever asked your son why he turns in his class work with just his name on it?....chi

[Galaxo]

My son did this in second grade. This is how I corrected the not doing school work. Daily I asked the teacher what work he had failed to complete. When he came home he sat at the table until it was done. He could get up long enough to go use the bathroom, that was all. After he was done he was allowed to do what he normally wanted to do. At first he refused to complete the work at home, until he learned he could do his work and get up, or he could sit there until he went to bed. After a few weeks, he started doing all of his work in school including his homework which he would do at lunch/recess up until he graduated high school.

[Ariel85]

My son did this in second grade. This is how I corrected the not doing school work. Daily I asked the teacher what work he had failed to complete. When he came home he sat at the table until it was done. He could get up long enough to go use the bathroom, that was all. After he was done he was allowed to do what he normally wanted to do. At first he refused to complete the work at home, until he learned he could do his work and get up, or he could sit there until he went to bed. After a few weeks, he started doing all of his work in school including his homework which he would do at lunch/recess up until he graduated high school.

 

Nicely done. That's how you parent properly.

[Moontiger]

My son did this in second grade. This is how I corrected the not doing school work. Daily I asked the teacher what work he had failed to complete. When he came home he sat at the table until it was done. He could get up long enough to go use the bathroom, that was all. After he was done he was allowed to do what he normally wanted to do. At first he refused to complete the work at home, until he learned he could do his work and get up, or he could sit there until he went to bed. After a few weeks, he started doing all of his work in school including his homework which he would do at lunch/recess up until he graduated high school.

 

I agree with the general idea of this. Its great that it worked for your son. Kudos for stepping up as a parent. It should be noted though that this will not work for all kids. Specifically if they have any kind of learning disability. I briefly studied meta-cognition in college, one of the most effective ways to study/get work down is to take a ten minuet break every hour or five minuet break every half hour.