Modern dating roles, men/women picking up the tab, etc.

[crepes]

So, I am in an uncomfortable situation because I am a very old-fashioned girl living in a modern world with etiquette rules which are in transition. A lot of people still expect men to pick up the tab. Others always expect to go dutch, calling women who don't adhere to this "gold diggers" who expect to be treated as equals everywhere except when the check comes.

 

See, for me, it is not a question of equality. I simply think men and women are different, and I believe strongly that it should be allowed to stay that way for those who are comfortable being more traditional. When a check comes to a table, it feels improper to me to reach for the check when on a standard date (obviously not his birthday or something along those lines, that is different). However, there are other things I like to do for the man: cooking, baking, dolling myself up for him, taking care of the birth control, things like that, and all things considered I am doing at least my fair share. And also, I never go out on dates with people who I don't know very well or think there is no potential future with, so the point of "wasted expenses" on the part of the man doesn't really apply here.

 

Not only this, but even if I wasn't old-fashioned, I would feel I was in a no-win scenario. Many men are fine letting a woman pay her half, but many think it's tacky or a sign of disinterest if she tries to pay her own way. And even more unsettling, a lot of men will consciously or unconsciously not value a woman as much if he doesn't have to make any effort to impress her -- this is something that men have told me, not something I figured myself.

 

My question is, why are people these days so against women who don't reach for the check? And this leads to a wealth of other questions. Like, what the hell *is* the proper thing to do when the check comes? Is it dishonest to offer to pay on a date if I don't mean it? Do men secretly think less of women who don't reach for the check?

[DN]

My question is, why are people these days so against women who don't reach for the check?

Because it is taking financial advantage of the guy based on out-dated reasons. It's quite wrong for a man to pay, sometimes substantial sums of money, while a woman gets to keep her money in her pocket.

 

Do men secretly think less of women who don't reach for the check?

My belief is that men who don't allow a woman to pay do not think of women as equals. They either think women are superior (and therefore they have to buy their attention) or inferior (in which case they use paying for dates as a form of control)

[crepes]

I feel like you didn't read my entire post. XD I'm not exactly out for a free ride here.

[erzerum7]

I have never been on a date, so take this as you will. I prefer to pay, I think it fits the gender roles better. However, I also don't want to feel used, so I want to see that she does not feel entitled to having me pay for her. Reaching for the check is acceptable, even insisting the first one or two dates is OK (when she's trying to get to know me and doesn't want to feel like I'm doing her some sort of favor). Pretending to have no money on you or primly expecting me to pay is not acceptable. Insisting on paying after the first few dates seems a bit cheesy.

[DN]

I feel like you didn't read my entire post. XD I'm not exactly out for a free ride here.

Do you really feel that you spend the same amount of money as he does in the relationship (don't count 'dolling yourself up' that is not a legitimate dating cost)

[crepes]

Do you really feel that you spend the same amount of money as he does in the relationship

 

Uhh, yes. That was my whole point. What I don't understand is why it has to be that particular thing that people feel they have to equalize, or else the woman is a "gold-digger."

 

(don't count 'dolling yourself up' that is not a legitimate dating cost)

 

Are you kidding me? It costs me a lot of money and time to live up to what men seem to expect me to look like. Just because some men don't have those expectations doesn't mean most don't. Besides, I am not really counting this when I say that I feel my relationships are equal, I just thought it was worth a mention.

[DN]

You asked - I answered. If you want a debate I am not going to engage.

[crepes]

Your answer was a question. Was it rhetorical?

[Voguester]

I personally think the guy should pay for dinner on the first date, it leaves a good impression and it's gentlemanly. We're talking about what a 60 buck meal between both of you? and if the guy really likes you than he will want to treat you well. After that then I think it's either fair to split the bill or take turns in picking up the check.

[DN]

Thread reopened.

[givinggirl]

I agree it's hard to know how to act with the check because there are so many different perspectives. People develop opinions over this so easily and it could ruin everything if you make the wrong choice. However, I do feel things are so expensive that I feel more comfortable not having him bear all the costs. This is what I do. I let him reach for the check, I grab my purse and ask how much. He will either tell me how much or tell me not to worry about it.

 

The guy I am dating now, our first dinner out, which technically was just friends, but ended as being a date, the bill was $48, when I said how much, he said, I'll put in $40 and you can get the rest, but that was because he only had $40 cash on him (which I didn't know till later). I'm pretty sure he would've paid the entire bill if he had stopped at the ATM, but it was last minute plans. Next time, we ordered pizza out last minute and I paid cause he had no cash, but he told me he owed me a pizza. The next time we ate out (pizza), he paid the entire bill saying I bought pizza last time. Actually, ever since that first night, he always stops at the ATM on the way out. The last time we ate out, he paid the entire bill and said that I had given him soup and cupcakes, so it was on him. We've been dating 5 weeks, I keep offering, but it seems like he wants to pay.

 

I've been on all sides of this, some guys want to pay for everything, some guys like alternating and then there are guys who mooch all the time.

[motley802]

As a male I dont have any issues with paying bill but I've always seen girls offering to pay. I generally tell them I can take care of it and they ask me "are you sure". I simply nod. One girl still insisted on paying and I let her do so.

 

There are no hard and fast rules but its up to the comfort zone of the people involved. A good friend of mine always prefers going dutch on first or second date. And he is in a happy relationship now. In fact his girlfriend admitted that he was the first person to ask her to pay on initial dates.

 

If girl is not even showing willingness to split the bill then I seriously think she is player or dating for fun.

[Bismark776]

You can't measure a relationship in terms of who has spent more money on it, thats just stupid. If both people are more comfortable with the man paying and so he "spends more on the relationship" why is that wrong? Physiologically men have a pleasurable response to seeing themselves as providers. Its not about equality, its just about what makes people feel good. Personally, it really makes me feel good when the girl I'm with let's me take care of her. That might mean paying for the check or any number of things but it has nothing to do with whether we're equal or not. Your ability to pay and my desire to pay are not related. If I were with a girl who earned double what I did I would still want to pay for the check.

[Day_Walker]

I think that we live in an interesting time where a persons sex doesnt determine the role that they must take with respect to dating, and this isnt shunned. If you are old fashioned then be old fashioned you are only going to have success with guys who buy into that old fashioned thinking as well. I think it is pretty simple, you just have to decide what your protocol is and go with that. There are going to be a wide variety of opinions as to "dating roles" and why each is justified.

 

For example, personally, I will discount any woman that I go on a date with and doesnt offer to pay. I dont expect her to pay but I like that she is offering. Im sure that will not sit well with people and I am okay with that, because it is the way that I choose to date. People will have their criticisms of it but they are free to conduct their dating protocols as they wish.

[Alezia]

Perhaps I'm entirely weird about it, but for me it has nothing with the actual monetary value.

 

I really just like having the waitress put the bill in front of the guy and have him sign it and take care of it for me. In reality, I make more money than him and we share all of our money (we have children and stuff...), and so in theory I am paying even more than him. I just find the illusion really sexy and turns me on. If I sign the bill myself, it's a turn off - and I never understood why.

 

Personally, if I insist (not just offer once politely) on paying on the first date, it's because I feel bad/guilty at not being interested in wanting more of a relationship with the guy. If the guy accepts that I pay, I won't dismiss him, but as I said above, usually the attraction goes downhill after that. I'll have to be really into the guy to move forward with more dating. Having the guy pay is just tied to the sit down dinners over a bottle of wine though. The rest of the stuff, I couldn't care less about ex: movies, mini putting etc... And I never understood how my attraction or sex drive got mixed into this.

 

I guess the morale of the story is to not read into who pays what as we all have really different ideas of what should be done. Perhaps in your case OP, if you feel the guy should pay and he insists you go dutch, then he is probably not a good match.

[DN]

The problem with the 'Guy should pay on the first date' and then go dutch or whatever is that very often there isn't a subsequent date for the woman to reciprocate. A wole lot of first dates gets expensive for the guy.

 

There was a story on here of a student who would accept a date with any man and would suggest a restaurant simply to get a free dinner - she had no intention of seeing him again.

[Alezia]

How long do you (or whomever you refer to) know these women before asking them on dates ? For a person to just drop out of your life like that after a simple dinner, means that the connection was almost in-existent in the first place no? It's almost due to a lack of judgment at that point, no?

[Bismark776]

Exactly Alezia, I wouldn't start with an expensive dinner unless I knew the girl already for a while and we had decided to move things along. If I was just meeting a girl I'd do something a lot lighter to meet her initially. Once you two know you're interested in eachother then you bring on the heavier dates.

[Batya33]

I was (am) "traditional" and here is what I used to do. If the first date was a first meet from the internet I always offered to pay my share unless it was literally a $2.00 cup of coffee or bottle of water where he asked me what I wanted and waited in the line to get it -then I felt very awkward asking if he wanted $2 (since I would never ask someone for $2 whether it was a friend or a date or the first time meeting someone) - so I would say thank you and that always seemed fine. If it was a real first date and I definitely wanted to see him again (and it seemed mutual) I might offer to pay if it was an expensive meal but if not I would let him pay, thank him, and if the date extended to dessert or similar I would offer to pay for that. On the second date I would either offer to pay my share or pick up the movie tickets or similar. I tried to avoid split the check situations after that -I preferred to take turns, or to treat for one of two activities (not always equal but roughly so especially since we would be taking turns). Most of the men I dated vehemently insisted on paying most of the time and it was hard to get them to accept even part of the time. I don't think they saw me as superior or inferior -it was simply a dating practice.

 

When I was a student, I did let the man pay if he wasn't a student and was working but I did do the cooking dinner/buying gifts, etc. And I never suggested expensive places.

 

I never thought of my expenses for clothing/makeup/hair as having anything to do with dating nor did I think my paying for birth control did either. I did meet a few men who were gold diggers and that of course was a turn off.

[DN]

How long do you (or whomever you refer to) know these women before asking them on dates ? For a person to just drop out of your life like that after a simple dinner, means that the connection was almost in-existent in the first place no? It's almost due to a lack of judgment at that point, no?

Oh sure - it's always the guy's fault *sigh*

[petite]

Topics like this one have been exhausted time and time again, and people wont ever agree. I am traditional in the sense that I think it's gentlemanly to pay for the first date - however, I always offer and most of the time have picked up the tab on the second date. I've never been a fan of bill splitting, even when I'm with friends or family, I'd rather just pay the whole thing myself, unless I know that person really prefers to split. Usually with my friends and family, we take turns and that's also how my relationships have been, in the end it evens out.

 

One thing that stood out to me in the opening post was the mentioning of dolling oneself up for the man and taking birth control. I believe that many men like to look presentable too so that just isn't a valid point in my opinion and birth control is as much for the female as it is for the man. I really don't see that as doing my share just for him, it's for the benefit of both.

[DN]

OK - but see what I said about the first date. Remember that not every guy can afford to pay for the first date all the time. It is also worth noting that these 'rules' don't just apply to twenty/thirty somethings - teenagers and students are also pressured to conform.

 

When I see posts from females on here saying "he's obviously interested, why doesn't he ask me out", I often wonder "maybe he just can't afford it". And yes, even a coffee date can be expensive for teens and students. When people say "oh, it's only a few bucks" (anywhere from five to fifty) it's usually the female who doesn't want to pay so obviously she can afford it, or some guy who can afford it or who doesn't want to admit that he really can't.

 

People should not be so free with other people's money.

[Batya33]

I did have a friend who didn't like the "let's go to a museum" on a first date because to her that was "cheap". I think a guy who cannot afford to pay on a first date, especially these days - should be honest and to me the conversation should not be "do you mind if we split the tab" but should show effort to plan something that is interesting yet virtually free. A walk in the park, or in another interesting place, going to a museum that's free(and more typically free for students) or "I'll bring some sandwiches to the park and we'll have a picnic" (and yes, I am comfortable with the guy paying for the bread and sandwich stuff that he can get at a supermarket and hopefully that he will have around anyway). There is also free outdoor theater or movie passes that come up that are free. Yes that puts more of the burden on the guy if he is the one who asks for the date. And, sure, if the woman wants to do a different activity then let her suggest it and hopefully if she is sensitive and considerate she'll offer to pick up the tab for her suggestion and if there is a second date then he can pay for what he can afford.

 

As far as pressure to conform, yes it is there for both genders. often. I don't think it's the woman's job to tell a man who insists on paying "oh you're just doing that to conform so I can't let you pay". I think that's patronizing. If she doesn't want to date someone who wants to pay then she shouldn't but not because it's her job to tell him how he should behave when it comes to paying.

[petite]

I can only speak for myself but when I was a teenager most of the time I paid for myself. I have worked since 15 and always had spare change for a coffee, movie tickets or a pizza. The last unemployed person I dated was when I was 17 and he was 18 (Actually he earned a bit or money playing soccer but didn't have an actual job) most of the time we either paid for ourselves and at times he would shout me a dinner and vice versa. As an adult, I've never dated a man that couldn't afford a coffee or basic dinner (they all had jobs). I wasn't looking for a man that could pay for my coffee or dinner but I have dated men that earned enough to cover their basic living needs and cover the occasional dinner we had, just as I did too. I've never been a serial dater and I am sure that it's quite different for people that have 10 dates a month and feel that they have to cover the first bill.

[DN]

I think a guy who cannot afford to pay on a first date, especially these days - should be honest

If it weren't the societal pressure on him to pay the situation would not arise.

 

I understand that people do not like to give up advantages, especially when it comes to money, but it really is time this antiquated custom was dropped. And every time I see the word 'gentleman' used in this context I believe it is used in a manipulative way, just as 'it isn't ladylike' was used to hold women back from certain things they wanted to do.