Friends? Lovers? A moral dilemma!

[Humbert]

Inevitably these things are bound to end up longer than anyone cares to read, so I will try to render as simply and succinctly as possible an otherwise complicated tale.

 

Some months ago the love of my life and I split up. Her choice. Reason: my "standards" are too high; I expected too much. Yet now that we're over, she does everything I'd wanted her to do, and to a greater extent than ever I encouraged—so I see that it is not so much my "standards" that were high, but the sense of pressure she must have felt to "live up" to them. No one really understands why she felt pressured; she exceeds willingly my so-called standards, and I didn't demand them. Still she felt that way.

 

(They say that hope for reconciliation lies in starting anew. Well at this point that is all I can do, for she claims that while she is unopposed to the idea of getting back together, she has no interest in it, and her feelings are gone. This is highly doubtful—none of our friends believe her—but I will take her word for it.)

 

I am currently abroad and since I left I've not kept in contact (she emailed me once, but no response was necessary). She once said that the time away may make her miss me, "then if you want you can come back to W—— and woo me." Later I found out from a friend that she is "jaded about relationships" and has expressed discomfort with the idea of being pursued. She'd rather I "try to be her friend again first."

 

Shortly I will return from my trip; I've resolved not to see or talk to her till she wants to see me. My dilemma: what should I do? Obviously pursue or be an innocuous friend? Both seem dangerous.

 

On one hand,

1. I do not wish to pressure her any more than she already felt (that was the break-up reason, after all).

2. She had grown weary of discussing with me our relationship, its problems or lack thereof, etc.

3. Friendship may give me a chance to show, not just say that we belong together.

4. Allegedly she only falls for close friends; in fact, we were best friends long before we began dating.

 

On the other,

1. She may see me as weak, or satisfy her "fix" of me, or never come to value me.

2. I do not want to found a friendship on a fundamental lie: the idea that we did not work because we wanted different things. She needs somehow to know that the "pressure" felt was a misunderstanding, to take down that brick wall against me, and truly to start anew.

3. Otherwise, she may only come to see how good we are as friends, by clinging to that misunderstanding and not realizing our potential as lovers.

[Mesemene]

She's expressed discomfort at being pursued, so I'd say that's an obvious no-go.

 

As for friendship, since you're still calling her the love of your life, you don't see her as just a friend. Developing a friendship with her for the purpose of her reconsidering really isn't fair to either of you. For you, it'll be emotional torture. And for her - well, she wants a friend, and you're being less than honest in your intentions. You don't want, deep in your heart, to be her friend. You want her back.

 

If she does miss you, and wants to reconcile, she will let you know.

 

They say that hope for reconciliation lies in starting anew. Well at this point that is all I can do, for she claims that while she is unopposed to the idea of getting back together, she has no interest in it, and her feelings are gone. This is highly doubtful—none of our friends believe her—but I will take her word for it.

 

It doesn't really matter if her feelings are gone or if she only believes they are, the result is the same.

 

For you, it means she isn't a part of your life now. Time to worry about yourself, and start getting through the painful grieving process. I don't say that flippantly, it's hard, and some days will be harder than others and make you question yourself and your position, your resolve, and your actions - but she's worrying about herself and her life, and you need to do the same for your own sake.

[EgoJoe]

I agree with Mesemene completely and would like to add these things for you to think about without considering any other fact, situation etc. ANYTHING.

 

She says one thing to you and another thing to others about the same topic (reconciliation). She has an idealogical view of emotions in the modern era.

 

 

Forget it, Jack. It's Chinatown.

[Humbert]

In all fairness, Joe, she has said the same thing to me as well. I meant to stress just what other people know about our situation. In fact, the aforementioned email she sent me (which I didn't respond to) said both things: she hasn't closed herself off to reconciling eventually, but the idea of being actively pursued is uncomfortable. According to her, me wanting more is not what's uncomfortable ; its the active pursuit she doesnt like. My "best bet" she said is to "start over" as friends, as we did the first time. I am willing to take things as slowly as needed ; but I wish first to clarify our misunderstandings. I wonder if it is worth risking her comfort by bringing up the past in order to get it out of the way.

 

As for working on myself, I've been doing so. : )

[Flyingpiglet]

^This... I agree with all of this!

 

It is possible for ex's to be friends (personal experience) but only whrn there is no romantic intentions attached.

I am now friends with my ex from over 3 years ago, I'm also friends with his girlfriend!

IMO, until you would be happy to accept a new partner into the equation and be happy about it... Friends isn't what you really need

[nutbrownhare]

It is possible for ex's to be friends (personal experience) but only whrn there is no romantic intentions attached.

I am now friends with my ex from over 3 years ago, I'm also friends with his girlfriend!

IMO, until you would be happy to accept a new partner into the equation and be happy about it... Friends isn't what you really need

I agree with this totally. You clearly want her back, and unfortunately she's going to pick up on this no matter how effectively you think you're hiding it. It's also dangerous to listen to friends, who have decided what they think she's feeling, rather than the girl herself when she tells you the feelings are gone. If she's telling you they're gone, THAT'S what you need to accept. If she wanted to get back together, you'd know about it - without a doubt.

 

Presumably she knows when you return from your trip? If so, let her contact you in her own time and don't attempt to pursue her. That way, there's no risk of you putting unwanted pressure on her, and if she does get in touch then you'll know that it's coming from her, and that's what she wants for herself. Meanwhile, just get on with your life and other interests and don't bank on this relationship starting again. It will be an enormous lesson in letting go, and I do feel for you!

[catfeeder]

The attempt to play friendszies thing is a waste of time and focus. Ex will either want to rediscover you based on your ability to move forward and build a good life for yourself, or she won't--but sticking around in the hope of manipulating someone to feel what she doesn't is counter productive.

 

I'd reexamine the idea that everyone else knows better what the girl wants and feels than she does.

[Humbert]

Thanks thus far for the responses, all.

 

Regarding believing her or believing friends—as I mentioned above, I take her word for it. I disbelieve it personally but act assuming the worst.

 

I never planned immediately to pursue her upon returning; I always knew I should wait till she wants to see me. My dilemma is between making clear my pursuit and approaching her like a suitor, or taking things slowly and seeing what happens. Mesemene says nay to the former, and others here nay say to the latter; but I wonder, is it really all that bad?

 

She has said that I should "try to be her friend again first." Perhaps I am reading too much into that last word, but it is something she has told me, and others have repeated the same verbatim. Again, she said my "best bet" is to start again from the beginning, as we did initially: from friends into lovers. And this with her makes sense, for it may allow her to warm up to me and get to trust me again after everything. She has only ever developed feelings for her friends.

 

Would it truly be unwise to reappear in her life, and slowly to make my presence more greatly felt, without necessarily being a buddy, in order to show all the ways we were compatible, as well as all the ways I've improved? Obviously I ought not to crowd her, and instead to give some space; but is staying disappeared the better option? (All our friends are the same; her current roommates are my former roommates; so avoiding her is actually more effort.) Remember that my intention isn't to revive an old relationship, but to recreate one.

 

Some of you may not like this, but I am dead-set on this. I have been focusing positively and progressively on my own life, and I am willing to take things as slowly or whatever as needed, but my goal is ultimately to start again, better than ever.

 

B.T.W. I know ex's can be friends: one of my girlfriends past became a dear friend of mine, and she is actually a person to whom I've turned to talk about this break-up! But there was never an intention to date again. I tried once before the let's-be-friends-but-secretly-I-want-you approach with another ex-girlfriend, and at one point in our post-break-up-friendship she said she wished eventually to marry me! So perhaps there is hope; at the same time, we didn't end up marrying ;P

[nutbrownhare]

Some of you may not like this, but I am dead-set on this. I have been focusing positively and progressively on my own life, and I am willing to take things as slowly or whatever as needed, but my goal is ultimately to start again, better than ever.

It's not a question of whether or not ENAers like it; that really is not what this board is about. However, there's a lot of wisdom and experience on here, and trying to control an outcome which involves another person or, as catfeeder put it "sticking around in the hope of manipulating someone to feel what she doesn't" is not likely to end well. Your scenario, and variations on it, is something you see quite frequently on here.

 

If you want to see this process described more clearly, and how counter-productive it is, see if you can get hold of a book called 'Letters from Women Who Love too Much'; one of the case studies in that is told from the perspective of a male who wished to show a particular woman what a wonderful partner he would be for her.

 

Of course, you have your own reasons for pursuing your particular course of action and anyone on here would respect that. You are also not alone in requesting advice, receiving pretty well unanimous responses and then deciding to ignore that advice. People take things on board when they're ready to and, again, that needs to be respected.

[catfeeder]

I'd skip the friends thing altogether. Bad strategy that rarely, if ever, works--and posts to this board historically bear that out. I'd make it know to her if she contacts you that you adore her and would like to hear from her again if she ever wants to attempt a new romantic relationship with you, but short of that, you'll pass.

 

Then let her miss you. People tend to glamorize the past and remember the good things. If she grows fond enough of her memories and hears that you're doing well and becomes curious, that's the best shot you've got of renewing her interest. Otherwise, you're keeping yourself trapped in a stage of grief called 'denial' and it will continue to torture you until you grow tired of it.

 

Head high.

[Humbert]

I still haven't quite decided what to do; but there's more time to think; I haven't yet returned.

 

If it matters, I'd like to post something I received lately in an email from my friend (who is currently my ex's roommate), and ask for your perspectives.

 

"Talked to R——— about you somewhat and I would highly recommend just trying to be her friend first because she doesn't seem like she's interested in a relationship with you unless you've dramatically changed."

 

Of course, the whole issue about whether or not I've changed or if change was ever needed is too complicated to go into; but for brevity's sake just assume I'm honest when I say that we both have grown in ways enough to make it work again. So it seems now the goal is to show and prove that. Obviously I can't do so while not in contact. If friendship is to be avoided, what else?

 

Would it truly be unwise to reappear in her life, and slowly to make my presence more greatly felt, without necessarily being a buddy, in order to show all the ways we were compatible, as well as all the ways I've improved? Obviously I ought not to crowd her, and instead to give some space; but is staying disappeared the better option?

[SudoMB]

The risk, and you have to accept the outcome regardless of how it falls, is that being her friend first will keep you in friend zone.

 

What worked for some might not work for others, my own situation has changed dramatically, and regardless of what friends, family, or others say...sometimes you might just need to have an honest discussion with her and lay it out. Your stance, your perspective, and throw it out there saying..this is me, this is where I'm at, this is where I'm going, care to come along? Or something like that.

 

 

This boils down to so many factors, and unfortunately, there is no manual....

[EgoJoe]

You want to create attraction and demonstrate change? Wait for her to come talking and be different. Stop talking to her roommates, stop playing this game, what her roommate really said was, "*YOUR EX* would really like to keep you on the backburner and if you be her friend and orbit her while demonstrating how much you've changed into a walking surface I'm sure when she needs a pity * * * * or ego stroke she'll come holler at you...eventually...maybe..."

 

Now, is it intentional? No. Am I 100% right no ifs ands or buts? No...are you playing it safe and being a man if you don't be here friend and demonstrate change in a life of your own, doing your own thing and having the best possible life YOU can have. Yes.

 

You deserve more and better. You are a prize and worthy of love. So accept nothing less from the object of your affection in situations like this!

 

Rant over, haha.

[catfeeder]

Don't operate on gossip. The girl knows how to reach you if she ever changes her mind. Attempting to manipulate someone into wanting what she's clearly stated she doesn't want is disrespectful to her and to yourself. You may decide someday that you'd like to make certain changes in yourself because you want to make them--but hanging around the periphery of someone else's life to tap dance is not the way to demo that you've changed, it's the way to demo an inability to let go. That's not attractive.

[Humbert]

Thanks again for all the advice so far. Whether or not I take it is a matter time will tell, but they have been helpful in gaining a better perspective.

 

In the meantime, here are some things I have done to work on myself. While I certainly hope these things will help to attract her, they are for me—I want them too, independently.

 

Being cultured

This is something I know she will never find in another. My interest, taste and grasp of the arts and humanities etc. is something I shared with her and that I know she has had no one else to enjoy with her since I've been gone. While abroad I've immersed myself in rich cultural traditions, become better-read and generally cultivated these interests.

 

Being fit

When we first met I was a bit of a gym buff—I never body-built but I was what is known as "ottermode." Over the years I've degraded slowly into skinny-fat. I've been working to get back and improve my old physique; and though the results are not super conspicuous, it does wonders for one's mood and self-esteem.

 

Being stylish

I've always been somewhat of a dandy, so the usual advice to better one's style doesn't quite apply. But lately I had noticed a certain boredom she felt toward my "uniform," so to speak, which had become exceedingly professional—I know I'd grown weary of it. I have reacquainted myself with the casual look I once sported, tempered of course with my more recent sensibilities.

 

Being ambitious

Apropos of my career, things are a bit uncertain. But I've rediscovered that inner drive that compelled me, before the break-up, toward greater things and have felt for the first time in a long time enthusiasm about it all.

 

Anything else I ought to consider? I suppose that yes, I do intend my self-betterment to aid in reconciliation; but I figure these things have the added benefit of helping me in the worst case scenario—I wouldn't want to end up heart-broken and boring.:star:

[Humbert]

I'd like to give an update on where I'm at right now, but first allow a bit more back story—

 

In the month before I left, the ex and I were on slightly amiable terms: phone, text, online chatting, casual dates even. It was a strange limbo filled with mixed messages ; and though she had said that we were on the "road to relationship recovery," we seemed palpably stuck in the friend zone. As I've said before, she told me we'd perhaps have a second chance once I returned ; so willfully I entered into this limbo with the sole intention of leaving fond memories. Expectedly things went sour, as emotional things are wont to do, and in the week preceding immediately my departure we had altogether stopped talking. I spoke one last time with her before I left—a fun, friendly conversation, given its subject—where we decided to cut off contact while abroad.—

 

 

I was not supposed to return till December, but various concerns both personal and professional brought me back sooner. I arrived several days ago and kept low for the first few. I'm planning soon to go out to dinner with her roommates, which I think a good idea for two reasons: 1) they were my friends first and 2) I wish to show them I could be whole without her. While planning I sent to one of them this text: "by the way, if she doesn't already know, you can tell her I'm back early ; though I'd love to see her, I respect her space etc. and wouldn't contact unless she wanted to."

 

"She says ok and she'll think about it."

 

I think the stance I've made is a good one—would you agree? Largely a reason our "road to relationship recovery" went south, and why we broke up at all, is her sense (real or imagined) of being pressured, and I hope that with this she knows that while contact is welcome I will not impose.

 

I intend to keep things this way and make no move till she's thought her thoughts. Yet there is one small worry. I fear she may think contacting me will open up a can of worms of pressure, or that I want merely to persuade her back into the old relationship. Would it be wise to let her know that's not true ; or should I leave things be?

[Humbert]

This will be my third consecutive post so I hope someone replies. As I said last, I returned from abroad and word of my return spread among our mutual friends. My ex knew I'd like to see her—but that I wouldn't initiate contact—and I expected never to hear from her. Ended up seeing her last night.

 

It was at a Halloween party, which so happened to my surprise and slight hesitation to be in the same apartment building as hers. Somehow my friend thought it would be a good idea to tell her I'm there. So she came ("She wants to say hi to you then leave," our friend said) and we chatted for an odd minute or two.

 

I'm still unsure what to make of it. It was pleasant enough, though simply small talk and a v. short chat indeed. And though I kept my cool I was not as lively and super-friendly as I thought I'd be—I still felt rather uneasy that now, after months of ignoring, suddenly without notice she'd approach me at a party.

 

Nor do I know whether this has or has not reestablished communication. She came over to me: but was there sign of further wish to see me? She told me to attend tonight another party (which I won't)* and in all likelihood I will run into her again on Monday. Should I continue to lay low or shall I take last night as cue that communication is again allowed? (Remember that our non-contact was as much her idea as mine.)

 

*She had previously told someone else to invite me too.

[Mesemene]

Did she give any indication of feeling about you and the relationship any differently, or stick with the casual talk?

 

If the second, this is what most of us call a "breadcrumb." It's low risk behavior from exes, can be from curiosity (hmm, wonder what he's up to?), directed curiosity (is he involved with someone else?), "security blanket" syndrome (is he still interested - I don't really like being alone...), or a multitude of other reasons that aren't potential reconciliation.

 

And to risk yourself, you really need a statement, gesture, or sign of commitment that goes beyond a lukewarm feeler. Lukewarm is for flat ginger ale when you're sick, not for a reconciliation.

 

(And sadly - most exes, when they "want to be friends" actually believe they're making things easier on you - they think it's better to give a little hope, and not crush you completely - though really, a clean stroke of the knife is better.)

[catfeeder]

Being civil in public is not the same as pursuing contact. I'd skip that idea. If she ever wants to get back with you there is not a single barrier to her letting you know that clearly and plainly.

 

Respect your Self.