Decoding boy talk - pt. 2

[agatha]

The original thread is here :

 

This weekend we were on a dinner-and-a-movie hangout (yes, we went dutch), the movie being at my place. While I was setting up the dvd, he received a phone call from a friend I've met once or twice (let me call him N), and his speaker was loud enough so I could hear their conversation even 5' away. The guy was basically asking my friend out the next day, and when N knew he was at my place he let out "it's a shame you two aren't on a relationship", to which my friend agreed. At that point I said 'so does my family, but luckily enough I'm still entitled to my own opinion'. He hung up, we watched the movie and talked as usual.

 

But the very point of this thread is - should I have confronted him there and then about this smothering behaviour? Should I do it in any other way? How can I get him to stop? And if anyone out here has the answer, what does all this means?????

[DN]

If you want this guy you need to be way less defensive and let him know you want him too. And that was a perfect opportunity which you let get away.

 

However, if you don't want him you have probably effectively shut him down already. I imagine he got the message that you don't want him loud and clear from what you said.

[agatha]

Believe me, after all these years of playing the same scene in different environments, no, that won't stop him.

 

I don't even know if I want him or not anymore, because I am all the time trying to figure out wether he is just joking or if there is some level of desire hidden behind all this theater. I think I could want him if he stopped resorting to third parties to put pressure on me.

 

Whenever we are on our own and I bring the subject he just dodges and take it anywhere else, so why bring it up in the first place? Make me look b****y to his other guy friends? I'm not like that! I don't string people along, I like things clear - if we're friends, we're friends; if there's anything wrong, let's talk it up; you know the drill.

 

Other than that, he's an awesome person, reliable, funny, smart, the kind of guy who's got what it takes to do anything he wants to. And every once in a while it seems he wants to mind-F me.

[magnoliatree]

should I have confronted him there and then about this smothering behaviour?

 

Wait I'm confused. Who is smothering you? The guy (because I really fail to see what in the world he did wrong here) or N (who made the mistake of asking a question of his friend and not knowing that the volume would be high enough for you to hear)? It sounds like you are really, really overreacting.

[agatha]

Wait I'm confused. Who is smothering you? The guy (because I really fail to see what in the world he did wrong here) or N (who made the mistake of asking a question of his friend and not knowing that the volume would be high enough for you to hear)? It sounds like you are really, really overreacting.

 

please, read the previous thread... it's not because of this isolated episode, it's the whole pattern. and yes, the guy is smothering me, but I'm positive I'm not over reacting.

[DN]

Well, if he is smothering you then I guess the best plan would be to end the friendship and stop hanging out with him.

[agatha]

Perhaps we're thinking of 'smothering' in two different senses - it can be used in a 'suffocating' sense, but also in a 'confusing', 'overwhelming', 'concealing', or 'suppressing (an emotion)' (intereseting fact that it can mean two opposite things. pretty much as I feel now).

 

As I put earlier, it is _this_ smothering behaviour I want to get rid of, among dozens of others that don't bother me at all (like scheduling things weeks in advance, then on the day before calling 167 times to arrange the details; or going out of his way to get something my brother likes). I wouldn't throw away an 8yr-friendship just because he is ocasionally a jerk.

 

All I want is to work around this one stupid behaviour that bothers me so either he stops repeating it or it stops bothering me (unlikely).

 

Ideas, anyone?

[DN]

Talk to him and ask him to change his behaviour.

[nutbrownhare]

It sounds as though he's as tied to you as you are to him; using other people, or joking about being in a relationship with you, is his way of expressing his feelings without letting himself feel too vulnerable. Of course there are real feelings behind 'all this theater', or he'd have got bored by now. If it had only happened once or twice, then you could have written it off - but this has been going on for a long time. However, it sounds as though you two are in a vicious cycle - you are becoming irritated by his behaviour, to which he responds by feeling vulnerable and behaving in the way you describe, you feeling more irritated and so on.

 

But neither of you is going to let go of the other.

 

In your other thread, you describe yourself as 'rational'. That's highly desirable for most of the things we need to do, but perhaps empathy and intuition might be more useful to you in this scenario. Emotions are, by definition, irrational. In a situation where things are highly emotionally charged, people often behave in irrational, illogical, paradoxical ways. He's unlikely to stop using third parties to convey his feelings - because those feelings aren't going to go away. He's unlikely to come straight out to you after his experience with that previous girl - unless you convey, covertly or overtly, that you are going to respond positively.

 

Of course, on a forum like this, you can't possibly hope to repeat everything that's passed between you, but the snippets you've posted on here suggest a certain spikiness which he is likely to be picking up on, not just your responses, but the fact that you describe him putting out his feelers as 'all this theater', without seeming to understand what's really going on, or comprehending the idea of the 'true word spoken in jest'.

 

You stated that you don't even know whether you want him or not any more; I'm guessing you do, or you wouldn't be posting on here - but this sounds conditional on him changing the behaviour which is helping him to feel safe. Maybe, just maybe, you could help him to feel safe without him behaving like this. But you need to be much, much softer - ironically, allowing yourself to be vulnerable.

[agatha]

Thanks for taking the time to actually read it, and writing such a thoughtful response, nutbrownhare. You really covered most of the angles, except for the one where I already asked him to step up to the next level a couple of times. In private, as it should be. And he delicately declined, and we moved on as if it never happened. All the times.

 

Perhaps I really wish he likes me and that it isn't all just a big joke. But I also can't get myself to hop into his PDA game and be extremely concentrated on a poker game on a minute and then the next second accept his 'request' to 'become his gf' just to check if he's really meaning it. To me it needs talking, or at least some kind of physical escalation. Besides, doing this in front of a group usually increases the peer pressure (you get more people asking 'how's it going'), and I really don't think it's healthy in the first stages of any relationship.

 

Basically, that's what the main issue is - to get him to talk to me about this, or express it when it's just the two of us. If it means softening up, be it. But then, I need help, because I have absolutely no idea on how to do it.

[nutbrownhare]

Hmmm... firstly, ignore peer pressure in the sense of letting it affect you personally. You may be right in that his inability to talk about the real issues isn't healthy in the first stages of a relationship, and you need to find out whether this is just a stumbling block, or whether it's going to apply to anything or everything you do, should it develop into a relationship.

 

Without seeing how you raised the issue of him stepping up to the next level I hesitate to comment - apart from suggesting that rather than asking HIM to step up to the plate, put yourself on the line. Of course, you may have done this already, but what I'm saying is that you address the issue using 'I' statements, for example:

 

"I really enjoy our friendship, and I'm hoping it will turn into something deeper. I'd really like us to be in a proper relationship - and I'm not joking!" and pay attention to your tone of voice; make sure your tones are soft and modulated, and maintain eye/hand contact. You'll be using your own words an' all that, but this would be the gist of it.

 

Generally speaking, any kind of conflict is better resolved if both parties take responsibility for their own emotions, needs and wants; this is more likely to happen if you start the process. However, it COULD be that although he has strong feelings for you, he genuinely isn't capable of having a relationship, which is why he's staying with the joking around. I keep thinking about that bit where you mention that he was severely hurt, having declared his undying love for someone he'd been friends with for years. He's been friends with you for years, too, and I'm guessing that the situation carries a bit of 'deja vu' for him.

 

However, by you stating your feelings for him very clearly and unequivocally, it should sort out quickly what the future of the relationship is likely to be.

 

Over the years, I've had friendships where I've stated clearly that I wasn't interested in a relationship and that I liked the guy as a friend. Then, further down the line, I've changed my mind and decided to say something like:

"You know I said I didn't want a relationship... um, can we talk about that?" and, every time, the guy has beaten me to it. So much of our communication happens below the radar, we pick up on people's moods and fears subconsciously, yet it is all the below-the-surface stuff which governs what happens in our lives!

 

Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

 

(((HUGS)))

[nutbrownhare]

P.S. If, despite your best efforts, he continues to joke about it in public and refuses to commit himself in private - you could always join in the joking yourself. In the UK we have an expression 'All mouth and no trousers'; I've used this with guys who make (good natured but jokey) comments of a sexual nature in public to good effect, here's a definition:

 

ALL MOUTH AND TROUSERS - "adj. British. Blustering and boastful, showing off without having the qualities to justify it.There is a suggestion that this is a corruption of a more logical, but rarely heard expression, 'all mouth and no trousers'. meaning full of talk but deficient in the sexual area. A less racy version is 'all talk and no action'. ." From the "Dictionary of Contemporary Slang" by Tony Thorne (Pantheon Books, New York, 1990).

 

I'm sure there must be an equivalent over the other side of the pond!

[DylanNotorious]

Why don't you just be his friend? Why try and take it to another level?

 

If he was interested in you he would be dating you. And although you said you have tried to talk to him about the subject, you back down just as fast when he shuts down.

 

Make a decision on what you want. If he does not want you, move on and date someone else. If he plays games tell him your not waiting around anymore. Keep the friendship if you wish, but ditch all the other nonsense because that's all it is.

[agatha]

Why don't you just be his friend? Why try and take it to another level?

 

If he was interested in you he would be dating you. And although you said you have tried to talk to him about the subject, you back down just as fast when he shuts down.

 

Make a decision on what you want. If he does not want you, move on and date someone else. If he plays games tell him your not waiting around anymore. Keep the friendship if you wish, but ditch all the other nonsense because that's all it is.

 

I am trying to be just his friend, he's the one who keeps 'hinting' on taking the next step.

 

''if he was interested''... - essentially he is dating me, except for we don't kiss. come on, dinner and a movie every two weeks or whenever I'm free? group hangouts weekly? add up the regular comments and I read a lack of spine rather than lack of interest.

 

that's what makes me uncomfortable on putting myself on the line, nutbrownhare: because it would still be very easy for him to say he'd like to try it too, and a few months ahead blame me for having started it all if it starts not working. been there, heard that (not from him).

 

I remember this one time, we were seeing each other daily for a number of reasons, and my official boyfriend was overworking his ass off with his new secretary (I didn't know yet of all that was really going on), and we hadn't seen each other for three weeks, reason why we argued and I asked for time. Me and my friend were on a spring festival a couple of days later, and he pointed out that he was being more of a bf to me than the real one. I said something like 'yeah, and you are such a nice guy... don't you want to know how would it be to have it all?' and he just spaced out. but that was some 4 years ago, and maybe he didn't want to be on the rebound. it was not the first time I brought it up either.

 

after I broke up I went on a really deep rebound, withdrew and played the serial dater game.

 

then the last time I asked him it was after a heavily drunk night 2 years ago, where he started drunk talking about his feelings for me, but there were lots of contradiction there and a bunch of nasty things that were not true at all. then we all danced and he tried to kiss me in the middle of the floor with his girl friends who are not friendly to me all around, and I just dodged him because I didn't want to be his drunk mistake. I ended up cornered by one of his friends and we made out. Later I tried to talk about it (he didn't know of me and his friend - he just couldn't, because we were in different floors-, and didn't know I saw him with this other girl either), and he said it was just the booze speaking for him, but he got so pissed about me and his friend that he started an argument the next day about it, and it went so hard his friends actually stood up for me (which is a strong indicator of how wrong he was), after which he didn't talk to me for 6 months.

 

I then raised the white flag of peace and threw a dinner to all my friends celebrating my new house, we made our peaces and resumed our friendship. 3 months later this bs starts. I know I am not innocent of making this harder, but honestly I feel more rejected here. because he keeps spreading word that I'm a b**** that rejects him, but ultimately withdraws from me!

 

is one grown-up, face to face talk too much to ask?

[nutbrownhare]

that's what makes me uncomfortable on putting myself on the line, nutbrownhare: because it would still be very easy for him to say he'd like to try it too, and a few months ahead blame me for having started it all if it starts not working. been there, heard that (not from him).

 

is one grown-up, face to face talk too much to ask?

 

You know this guy, obviously we don't. It could be that a grown-up, face to face talk would be too much for him - in which case you already have your answer - who wants a relationship with someone who isn't prepared to talk about important things? Given that the last time the subject was broached was two years ago, it might be worth a try bringing it up again - at least it gives you the option of moving out of this rather uncomfortable limbo you're stuck in at the moment.

 

However, on the first point - that of blaming you if it isn't working. Sounds like there are a few boundary/responsibility issues here. Short of you putting a gun to his head, if he chooses to have a relationship with you, that's HIS choice, and HIS responsibility. Similarly, your choice of him as a partner is your choice, and your responsibility. The responsibility if things don't work out is 50-50, and he can hardly blame you for it. And who's to say they won't work out, anyway?

 

If he's going round telling people you're a b***h who rejects him, aren't they getting a bit bored with it by now?