To all nice guys: are you too nice?

[Yaz]

There is a huge difference between submission and easy-going.

 

I'm not saying I like up-tight, highly strung men - I'm saying I like a man who can take control. Not one who leaves all the decision making, initiation of sex, etc. etc. to the woman, and also expects to be treated like a old-fashioned woman who gets doors opened for her.

[DoGGYtREAts]

I'd have to say I'm somewhat in the Middle, tho not traditional. I'm definitely more the "follower" in my relationship- This doesn't mean however i take it to the extremes where im incapable of thinking for myself or need constant validation to get thru the day We do both tho, definitely subscirbe to the "New Age" line of thinking.

 

Imho, your a "door mat" or "too nice" when it gets to the point that you have an obsessive need for validation or confirmation.

[Yaz]

Imho, your a "door mat" or "too nice" when it gets to the point that you have an obsessive need for validation or confirmation.

 

It's not that, though - even though that IS a huge turn off. It's the submission. The puppy-dog eyes. That kind of unvoiced pleading to be lead and dominated over.

 

"You're my world! I'll just look after the kids while you become president because you're just so much more wonderful than anything in the world!" Ugh. Blind love, just for the sake of love. I hate it.

[DoGGYtREAts]

It's not that, though - even though that IS a huge turn off. It's the submission. The puppy-dog eyes. That kind of unvoiced pleading to be lead and dominated over.

 

"You're my world! I'll just look after the kids while you become president because you're just so much more wonderful than anything in the world!" Ugh. Blind love, just for the sake of love. I hate it.

Quite honestly I wouldnt much care for that in a woman either. Like i hinted at, theres a balance, regardless of who "leads" imho, and im sorry folks, one of the two, someone is ALWAYS going to take the lead in some regard, tho in some relationships it's much more exaggerated then others.

[Lonewing]

Wipe away the tears princess, man up and if you have male friends (which I doubt) go out with them, pound the booze and go home with a girl a few times. I'm sure if they're drunk enough they might even let you 'spoon' them!

 

So let me get it straight, the way to be successful with women nowadays is to gang up on them with your guys [divide and conquer, or surround and sheppard], get all 'em liquored up, and then have your way with them?

 

Quite frankly I'm appalled at the modern woman. The only reason this attitude is common right now is because it commonly WORKS! Even despite the fact that in most places, such behavior is outright illegal [sleeping with a drunk girl is rape, regardless of whether she consents or not, in most states]. I suppose what's more disturbing about this behavior is that while people gripe and complain about creepy "hunting" behavior, this is the very behavior that is being rewarded here. The guys set a trap ["Hey, we're having a party, you should come - music, drinks, hookah...", "Hey, let me buy you a drink"] and girls say "aw, he's cute," and then walk RIGHT INTO it. And then they complain about nice guys being the ones "expecting something back???" Just why do you think they are buying you drinks, or standing up for you, or being macho in front of all their friends for you??? It's the same behavior!!

 

There is this issue of what a nice guy is in the first place.

 

A nice guy is basically a guy who lives by and practices the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would want done onto yourself. And the inverse, do Not do unto others what you would Not want done onto you. That's it.

 

The expectation or at least hope is that the people one interacts with are convesely nice in a similar manner - even in rejection. The truth is, most girls today are no where near "nice." Many are quite simply rotten. And right now there are no outside forces encouraging women to not get set into rotten behavior patterns.

 

There's another doubleedge sword here. Nice people are unfortunatley the ones who you never hear from again once you reject them. Not so nice people are the ones who keep trying again and again after you reject them, in hopes of wearng you down. Take a guess which ones are rewarded for their efforts.

 

I'm personally getting to the point where women are simply not worth the time of day. It's just sex - after that, they're just another human being like all the rest I have no desire to ever know. There's a couple good ones out there, but...it's not worth sorting them out.

[Batya33]

It's not that, though - even though that IS a huge turn off. It's the submission. The puppy-dog eyes. That kind of unvoiced pleading to be lead and dominated over.

 

"You're my world! I'll just look after the kids while you become president because you're just so much more wonderful than anything in the world!" Ugh. Blind love, just for the sake of love. I hate it.

Let me get this straight -as a full time mom I am "lead and dominated" by my husband just because he has a career? And a man who "just" takes care of his children isn't masculine enough? A person who actually perceives his/her full time parent job as "just" is not doing a good job of taking care of a child IMO. Since you look down so much on what traditionally has been a woman's role then perhaps with that black and white/stereotypical view you're not able to attract men with a healthy sense of confidence and assertiveness -you're either going to attract the passive, weak guys (who you misdescribe as "nice") or the arrogant (but insecure on the inside) guys who act like cavemen.

[Neutron Star]

Given a choice, I'd rather be with a jerky butt-hole who can protect me, than an insipid whimpering puppy-dog who I have to protect?

Then have the jerky butt-hole, but don't be surprised if he becomes disloyal or even abusive. It seems like you' label almost anyone else the whimpering puppy-dog.

This is true. I've never come accross a man who would stand up for me. Even when someone walks past and calls you fat, or ugly - I feel like the guy should stand up for me... maybe I'm just a little damaged. It feels nice to be defended sometimes. Like when friends in high school would stick up for you. It's not manly necessarily though - it's off-topic

I'd stand up for my girlfriend in a second. I've defended friends of mine too. That all doesn't matter since I'm much like the man who wrote the article. I'm still classified as a wimp or whatever you call someone who isn't a jerk.

[Neutron Star]

This is much of why I feel it's hopeless. It's amazing how many people now think that not only is being nice a huge negative, but being respectful is a huge negative. You go on to say that because someone puts a respectful aura out there is why he has no one.

 

There are plenty of males that view everything as primal where a relationship is primarily about the sex and plenty more that don't even believe in relationships. You'd think these men wouldn't be alone, but in our screwed up world they have long lists of phone numbers and are never alone.

 

You have everything backwards as far as I'm concered. The primal part is part of a relationship, but only part of it. Then again, maybe you're right since I've had less success than anybody.

[Neutron Star]

That's true when passivity/lack of assertiveness is misdefined as "nice". It's actually not nice -it's pretty self-absorbed and can be manipulative.

It is often true even if it's not the case. When people are nice now there's an often assumption that they are being nice just to get something in return, even though this assumption is almost always false.

[TakingtheBlame]

This is much of why I feel it's hopeless. It's amazing how many people now think that not only is being nice a huge negative, but being respectful is a huge negative. You go on to say that because someone puts a respectful aura out there is why he has no one.

 

There are plenty of males that view everything as primal where a relationship is primarily about the sex and plenty more that don't even believe in relationships. You'd think these men wouldn't be alone, but in our screwed up world they have long lists of phone numbers and are never alone.

 

You have everything backwards as far as I'm concered. The primal part is part of a relationship, but only part of it. Then again, maybe you're right since I've had less success than anybody.

 

A few things come to mind when I read this response. First, I don't know how old you are, but in my experience, the "nice guys" have a lot more success on average as people get older; i.e. the female friends of mine who used to play around with the stereotypical "bad boy" back in high school and college have now settled in with "nice guys" in their late 20's and 30's. I really hate this terminology and find it way too black and white to relate to real life situations, but for lack of better terms let's go with this for now.

 

Second, and tying into this, yes, the "bad boy" will have long lists of phone numbers and never be alone, but it's rare that their relationships and the women they form relationships with will be top quality. Is it really so hard to cruise the bars and pick up women who may be hot or fun but emotionally damaged enough to actually fall for their game? If a guy is too "nice" (i.e. shy/underconfident/anxious) to approach tons of women, even those of dubious quality, then he can't complain that he's not getting any.

 

I don't know if you watch Two and a Half Men (LOVE that show) but there's an episode where Charlie Sheen's character (Charlie, the aging "bad boy") is talking to Jon Cryer's character (Alan, the life-long "nice guy") about why Charlie has so much success with women while Alan is always alone. Charlie says something along the lines of "Do you know how often I get rejected by women? All the time!" and Alan says "All the time?" And Charlie, realizing that he's let his guard down, quickly corrects himself: "Well, sometimes." The moral of that episode is that the difference between the "bad boy" and the "nice guy" is how many women each is willing to approach, and how low each guy is willing to go with respect to quality each man is willing to go (and, most importantly, how well each can handle constant rejection.) Sure, Charlie (in real life and on TV) is never alone, but you only need watch his sitcom and/or watch his real life unfold to realize that you probably couldn't handle that lifestyle (and I hope you wouldn't want to.) And remember, the more women you're willing to approach, the more you're going to get rejected and have to bounce back. Do you know how many hot, confident "bad boys" I've rejected in my lifetime? TONS. That type disgusts me and puts me on guard; give me a nice, respectful, classy guy any day. I have no doubt they bounced right back and had some floozy on their arm the next day who fell for their cheesy lines and confidence.

[MakeItCount]

This is pretty much bang on. I've been the "nice guy" (in a good sense) all my life. Back in the day (ie highschool) I attracted TONS of women because I was confident, athletic, etc etc. I was never a douche to women, I treated them with respect. I then went through a few years of really bad luck, where my confidence dropped to zero. This caused me to turn into the "nice guy" that isn't so nice. Insecure, etc. When I finally got into my recent relationship after a few years of being single, I became a doormat. Since the breakup, I've rediscovered myself and basically re-learned my former skills, regained my confidence etc. I still treat women with respect etc, but I've thrown in a bit of an edge and established my boundaries.

 

It's a fine balance really, unfortunately most guys will walk on one side of the other. All these pick up artist minded guys either fail miserably and never even get a date or sleep with a million women but never manage to get into a stable relationship. On the other hand, the super nice guys (aka doormats) can probably get a girl but the attraction dies so quickly (as in my last rlship) that they just end up getting heartbroken over and over again and not realize why.

 

It takes a real wake up call to finally strike that balance. I'm not even 100% there yet, I'm still learning. But I guarantee I will never, ever be a doormat again. Hindsight is amazing.

[Neutron Star]

I'm almost 40 and have barely the experience of a 10 year old. I'm the one to get turned down time after time. It is dangerous to approach people in bars unless you know they are single and it's next to impossible to tell unless they are wearing a wedding ring. One wrong move and it won't be just a no. Her boyfriend or husband will come and who knows what will happen.

 

Many of the bad boys have their fun, calm down eventually and marry and then have a family. Some of the nicer guys types find somebody and get married some don't. The man in the article gets emotional about putting his arms around someone in a romantic way because he's 28 and has never done it yet. What would that be a surprise to anyone? I doubt he would have gotten so emotional if he had done it before many times. The response from a lot of people in both genders was disgust at him showing his emotions. I'm like the man in the article but around a decade older. What often happens to nicer people who can't find anybody is their niceness eventually turns into bitterness.

[MakeItCount]

I'm almost 40 and have barely the experience of a 10 year old. I'm the one to get turned down time after time. It is dangerous to approach people in bars unless you know they are single and it's next to impossible to tell unless they are wearing a wedding ring. One wrong move and it won't be just a no. Her boyfriend or husband will come and who knows what will happen.

 

 

He'll tell you to back off. big whoop

[TakingtheBlame]

He'll tell you to back off. big whoop

 

Exactly! I had a guy approach me recently at a bar while my boyfriend was in the bathroom. He was smiling and flirtatious but polite overall. My boyfriend came out of the bathroom, walked over, put his arm around me, and the other guy backed off. That was that. Nobody got hurt, and that other guy took a chance. Eight months ago, I was still single and he would've probably gotten a phone number (he was pretty cute.) And I'm sure he met someone else that night as soon as I walked out the door because he was comfortable coming over to a girl and saying hi. It's a numbers game, in the end, and you can't get bogged down with insecurities and emotion because you've just got to keep trying til you meet a match.

 

NeutronStar, I'm just curious (and my apologies if you've answered this question earlier in the thread because if so, I can't find it)...how do you define a "nice guy" in the sense that you consider yourself one? Why do you think you have never been in a relationship with a woman?

[Lonewing]

This is true. I've never come accross a man who would stand up for me. Even when someone walks past and calls you fat, or ugly - I feel like the guy should stand up for me...

 

The wiser part of confrontation is disgression - and when someone calls you fat or ugly, we both know they're wrong, but it's not worth a life to go and prove them wrong. Because likely it will be the life of this man you want to "protect" your fragile ego who will end up hurt.

 

People call guys ugly and all sorts of things all the time - you don't see women standing up for us, do you? Most times if we do have a woman, they look at us with that understanding look and say something along the lines of "They're idiots, please ignore them, they'll go away. If they don't we'll leave."

 

You have to learn how to protect your own ego from this kind of BS, and not by acting out against it, but by having resilient self esteem that is strong enough to let it roll down your back and onto the ground.

[Whathappened1607307853]

So what's a "nice" guy? Most of the descriptions I found are, quiet, shy, insecure, spineless, lacking in confidence, no mind of his own, will bend over backwards, etc. How the he** are any of those nice?

I know many people who fit the descriptions and they're not nice at all. Ridiculous!

I also know many people who do NOT fit any of those and I consider them the nicest peeps around.

The "nice guy" label is just plain wrong.

Can't a fun/sexy/confident guy be nice as well?

[dali]

Your right they are not nice guys, they are anything but. But A lot self confessed nice guys have those qualities.

 

Being nice is something you describe and find acceptable friends as, classmates, workmates and so forth. But in a relationship being told your nice has a lot to do with those negative qualities you listed. You can be thoughtful, caring, respectful, loving, passionate or protective and be a real mature person, there is a big difference. Which set of qualities do you think people find more desirable?

 

Most nice guys don't get what they want, same with older 25 and above virgins and shy guys and are stuck posting threads on ENA screaming a woe is me attitude. They think the world and society has conspired against them, when they need to look deeper into the reasons they do not get what they want.

 

I love the Two & Half Men analogy, because it shows the extremes, but there is a middle ground between both which is what you should be aiming for.

[Yaz]

I agree - it's more the stigma of being nice. To me it's:

 

1) Self-confessed nice guy = snake in the grass.

2) Nice guy = little girl

 

I have met nice guys who don't fit this criteria. I call them friendly, not 'nice'.

[Neutron Star]

A nice guy treats people with respect, at least most of the time. I don't know if I'm one. I'm part nice guy, but part of me is bitter. I have trouble getting dates and the few I get, I mess up. I don't come accross confident when I first meet someone. I often get so discouraged that I don't put in the effort. Still, it's mind boggling that I'm almost 40 without any relationships at all. I've had my share of luck in many things, but not romance.

[Neutron Star]

He'll tell you to back off. big whoop

He might or it might be much worse.

[Neutron Star]

Most nice guys don't get what they want, same with older 25 and above virgins and shy guys and are stuck posting threads on ENA screaming a woe is me attitude. They think the world and society has conspired against them, when they need to look deeper into the reasons they do not get what they want.

They are often one in the same.

[Neutron Star]

I agree - it's more the stigma of being nice. To me it's:

 

1) Self-confessed nice guy = snake in the grass.

2) Nice guy = little girl

 

I have met nice guys who don't fit this criteria. I call them friendly, not 'nice'.

The stigma has to be created by someone. It certainly has a very negative meaning to you. I don't see a whole lot of difference between nice and friendly.

[Batya33]

I agree - it's more the stigma of being nice. To me it's:

 

1) Self-confessed nice guy = snake in the grass.

2) Nice guy = little girl

 

I have met nice guys who don't fit this criteria. I call them friendly, not 'nice'.

 

So when you act in a nice way you are acting like a little girl?

[frree]

I think yaz just has a preference. She probably likes the muscular, action here type of guy. I'm guessing she's not into someone who looks like Leonardo Di Caprio. She doesn't like the sensitive, metrosexual type of man.

 

I sorta see where she's coming from. I'm a man but I cannot stand someone who overly sensitive myself. I'm not one of these guys who into telling people " I love them". To me it sounds soppy, and loving someone is done by actions not words. I couldn't stand someone desperate for my approval, nor do I want the approval of others. Being desired physically is good, but caring if someone else loves me is irrelevant. It's not going to make me richer, or more attractive, or physically stronger. it's pointless words people say to each other to make themselves feel better about each other.

[FathomFear]

So when you act in a nice way you are acting like a little girl?

 

It's rather clear to me that a lot of this goes back to how classical masculinity is very much tied to misogyny. It's the hatred or fear of anything perceived as feminine. As I said earlier in the thread, just look at sports teams or the military as a perfect example. Demeaning guys to inspire them = call them girls/women. It's just misogyny and nothing more.