To all nice guys: are you too nice?

[frree]

Nope, if you react to anger like that you've lost control, and that ain't cool. Likewise if you lose your temper in an argument and start shouting - loss of control, and lost argument as far as I'm concerned.

 

Not that physical violence isn't the right thing to do sometimes - i.e. for defending yourself - but as a response to anger it's weak.

 

In that scenario, most people would lose control.

 

I assume you never lose your temper or shout? I don't see physical violence in response to anger as weak, though perhaps a little dumb.

[tiredofvampires]

This relates to the OP, so hopefully it won't count as a hijacking:

 

 

 

I'm afraid you've drawn the wrong conclusions from the premises above, and therefore "learned" the "wrong" things coming out of this relationship, my friend. (And I'll argue that even the premises are wrong.)

 

Your premise: you were a pushover who acted too feminine and emotional to be respected as a boyfriend. Conclusion: Next time, learn to stand up for yourself and don't concede just to make your girlfriend happy, all the while protecting her more.

 

Of course, every story has two sides, and we don't know what hers is. But just taken at face value, your account is one of a woman who used you, did not consider your needs or wants, and had little respect for your feelings, in addition to being of low moral character. You said you forgave her for "her BS mistakes and excuses", which leads me to believe that she was manipulative and completely unable to take accountability for destructive things she was contributing to the relationship.

 

The way someone like that should be handled is neither what you did -- which was to grovel and demean your own dignity -- nor take it upon yourself to stand up to her and show her that you, too, have needs and wants. The way you handle someone like that is to LEAVE them, because they aren't relationship material to start with. And in hindsight (which is 20/20), but that's all you're left with now going into a future relationship -- don't date her in the first place. So your work is really cut out for you here. It's just that you've misdiagnosed your problem. It's not that you were unable to stand up for yourself and protect her (strange combo that is), it was that you are drawn to a dynamic where you are mistreated and respond by further degrading yourself. This is not a matter of being more "manly" -- women are abused in this same fashion in relationships. It's called "low self-worth." If you do not feel worth something better, you'll allow people like this to enter your life as partners and before you know it, your generosity and genuine desire to be a loving, attentive partner will somehow be turned against you. You will continue on negotiating long past obvious diminishing returns. Which, since you have low self-worth, all will evoke a response in you that it's something YOU did wrong and have to fix. And then the pleading and forgiving and letting things slide starts. And then it's just a vicious circle of them disrespecting you because you've signed up on the dotted line for that.

 

You do not need to be more forceful, learn to give in less to your partner, and master the manly art of denying unreasonable requests to have better relationships. This in fact is a prescription for another whole unhealthy dynamic defined by power. On the other hand, it's not good to cry and plead and beg anyone, no matter who you are or what gender or what situation. (If someone has a gun to your head, or a butcher knife over your arm, I'd make an exception.) The point is, you should never be with someone who treats you in a manner that forces you to choose between showing them you won't be beaten vs. turning yourself into a bowl of oatmeal. That should never be a choice in a healthy relationship.

 

What you need to work on is dealing with whatever forces make you grovel in the first place, as well as why you'd seek someone who elicits that in you. The crying and begging is only a symptom, it's not the actual cause. Deal with that. Because there is nothing inherently wrong with appropriate tears, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be held, and there certainly isn't anything wrong with giving your partner experiences you think they will enjoy. Your partner should be appreciative and welcoming of affection and generosity (and being accomodating -- people too quickly/categorically peg the positive trait of being flexible and accommodating with being "too nice"), instead of using it as leverage against you.

 

So, it is wrong to attribute the problem to your being "too feminine" -- what you did is gender-neutral tolerance of maltreatment, originating in low self-worth. And it's wrong to conclude that your solution should be an exhibition of more "manly" expressions and emotions, less tolerance for your partner, less giving, and more of whatever it is you're defining as "protecting." (and why should you seek to better protect a person who mistreats and deceives you?)

 

Correct premise: I was with the wrong person and I'm susceptible to that. Correct conclusion: Once I own the reasons I got into this mess, I can get with the right person, and they will treat my emotions and demonstrations of care in a respectful way, instead of taking advantage of them.

 

Showing vulnerable emotions is not a problem. It's only when you're unable to handle them maturely and skillfully, and/or if you're with someone else who can't that it becomes a problem.

[tiredofvampires]

And I agree with those who are saying that channeling anger through physical violence is unacceptable, as well as an enormous display of lack of restraint (which is weak.)

 

The only time I condone physical violence is in a situation of direct, immediate threat requiring self-defense.

 

If my partner punched someone on my "behalf," unless I was in immediate physical danger, I'd be immensely turned off and shaken.

[Batya33]

And I agree with those who are saying that channeling anger through physical violence is unacceptable, as well as an enormous display of lack of restraint (which is weak.)

 

The only time I condone physical violence is in a situation of direct, immediate threat requiring self-defense.

 

If my partner punched someone on my "behalf," unless I was in immediate physical danger, I'd be immensely turned off and shaken.

 

Same here - could not agree more.

[timlondon]

In that scenario, most people would lose control.

 

I assume you never lose your temper or shout? I don't see physical violence in response to anger as weak, though perhaps a little dumb.

 

Not really, and if I do I feel foolish afterwards.

 

I've also had to use force (in self-defence end defence of others) quite a bit recently, in afghanistan. Puts a bit of a different perspective on it, and actually I'm a calmer and more considered person than I was before, especially with respect to anger and violence.

[frree]

I'm still not getting how using violence is weak. Sure, for the most part it's unacceptable, and I'm not really a violent person myself either. Though I will use violence if someone threatens me with it, but that rarely happens because I avoid places and situations where a violent conflict can arise.

 

It's just not how I see it. Surely the guy taking a beating or backing off from confrontation is weak. Anyone who backs off from aggression is a coward IMO, but you're entitled to your views.

[greywolf]

Well, isn't this whole too 'feminine' thing about being too emotional? About being overcome by your emotions and doing stupid things? So I don't understand how someone could say that crying is weak and violence is not. They are both reactions to strong emotions. However, IMO violence is worse because it hurts other people.

[Yaz]

Honestly, this really just stems from homophobia/misogyny. It's so ingrained in our culture that even some unfortunate women buy into it.

 

I'm not sure why you say that you'd prefer to be with an "butt-hole who could protect you". What exactly do you need protection from in this day and age? We left the caves thousands of years ago.

 

I think that's just a really stupid comment. Oh yeah, because women don't get attacked and raped anymore, right?

 

Yes, misogyny is rife, but what can I do? Call my rapist a misogynist? Get real. If I'm going out in the evening, I'd rather be with someone who can protect me than someone who stands by or runs away.

[GettingBetter]

In a man, being very feminine is weak because you're likely to be stepped on by other men. You won't be able to stand up to other men if you're acting like a wimp, and won't be able to support a family properly either.

 

In this day and age, I would say that being able to support a family and being "manly" in the sense discussed in this thread are different issues. Intelligence and work ethic have far more bearing on your ability to support a family than manliness. Not that manliness is necessarily bad, although it can be a negative. Real people don't want to deal with someone who always acts tough, punches things when they get mad, etc. A large part of keeping a job in this day and age is actually putting up with crap from people above you. I'm sorry, but if an investor in your company, who's with millions or even billions, pisses you off, you've just go to take it.

 

So, I really do fail to see the relation between being a "man" and doing well in business. Sure, you don't want to be walked all over either. But, there's a fine balance.

[GettingBetter]

I think that's just a really stupid comment. Oh yeah, because women don't get attacked and raped anymore, right?

 

Yes, misogyny is rife, but what can I do? Call my rapist a misogynist? Get real. If I'm going out in the evening, I'd rather be with someone who can protect me than someone who stands by or runs away.

 

So what if he could protect you, would he? That's the real question. It's all about balance.

[timlondon]

I think that's just a really stupid comment. Oh yeah, because women don't get attacked and raped anymore, right?

 

Yes, misogyny is rife, but what can I do? Call my rapist a misogynist? Get real. If I'm going out in the evening, I'd rather be with someone who can protect me than someone who stands by or runs away.

 

Having a partner who is able to protect you is attractive to women for sound evolutionary reasons. Having a partner who attacks people when he gets angry, and when it's not necessary for self defence, is bad news and prohibited by society - and should also be unattractive to women (but isn't in all cases)

[FathomFear]

It's just not how I see it. Surely the guy taking a beating or backing off from confrontation is weak. Anyone who backs off from aggression is a coward IMO, but you're entitled to your views.

 

If someone confronts you with blind aggression that does not suddenly put you in a position where you need to respond to it. There's a very big difference between shying away from a confrontation you created (through lies, slander, etc) and a confrontation you find yourself in just because some guy is crazy or bored.

 

But either way, no one should be expected to participate in violence. This is 2011. If some guy thinks he's somehow gained the right to physically attack me, he's going to get a visit from the police.

[TakingtheBlame]

So what if he could protect you, would he? That's the real question. It's all about balance.

 

Exactly this. I had a boyfriend once who shoved a random guy to the floor because he felt that the guy was disrespecting me by leering (whether or not this was true, I was not pleased with my boyfriend's reaction and told him so.) He was a very aggressive type of guy who dabbled in weight lifting. Perhaps not surprisingly, he was also not very "delicate" with me...he was verbally abusive and quick to lose his temper at me and would attempt to tear me down at a moment's notice. Also interestingly, he would rarely accompany me to social events...he made all sorts of excuses, from "I have to study for finals" to "Your friends are boring and I have better things to do."

 

He could have protected me, but a butt hole has issues that cause him to be a butt hole and I doubt he'd be there when it really counts (except to occasionally show off, at his convenience, what a man he is.)

[FathomFear]

Exactly this. I had a boyfriend once who shoved a random guy to the floor because he felt that the guy was disrespecting me by leering (whether or not this was true, I was not pleased with my boyfriend's reaction and told him so.)

 

I think my biggest issue with that kind of behavior is that I don't believe you can consistently regard someone as an equal if you see yourself as having to "care" or "protect" them. Over time a dominant/submissive or parent/child dynamic is going to develop. Honestly, I don't think I could date someone who expected this from me either, nor could I date someone who wanted to protect me. I just find it creepy in either direction.

[GettingBetter]

I think my biggest issue with that kind of behavior is that I don't believe you can consistently regard someone as an equal if you see yourself as having to "care" or "protect" them. Over time a dominant/submissive or parent/child dynamic is going to develop. Honestly, I don't think I could date someone who expected this from me either, nor could I date someone who wanted to protect me. I just find it creepy in either direction.

 

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Men tend to be physically stronger than women... that doesn't make men superior. I think the point is to look for someone whose strengths and weaknesses complement yours. No, you don't want a dominant/submissive relationship, but at the same time, you don't have to be equal in all respects.

[TakingtheBlame]

I think my biggest issue with that kind of behavior is that I don't believe you can consistently regard someone as an equal if you see yourself as having to "care" or "protect" them. Over time a dominant/submissive or parent/child dynamic is going to develop. Honestly, I don't think I could date someone who expected this from me either, nor could I date someone who wanted to protect me. I just find it creepy in either direction.

 

Right, and I just want to clarify that I did not post that in an attempt to side with the "men should protect their women" camp. I was pointing out that men who are willing to engage in physical violence, especially in a show of masculinity, exhibit these traits for reasons that often cause them to behave in a similarly domineering and thoughtless manner with the women they date. It was also mostly a response to the idea that a "butt hole" capable of protection was more manly and thus attractive, which I disagree with.

 

But in response to your point here as well, and playing devil's advocate, I can see an argument that nobody outright expects her significant other to protect her, but this antiquated and perhaps genetically-ingrained desire for protection of self and family may cause women to select mates that give the impression that they can protect. That's not my viewpoint however, and either way I think that anyone who dates a man with the conscious desire that he be able to protect her is indeed exhibiting some disturbing behavior.

[frree]

There's a difference of being able to protect and acting like a bodyguard. For instance, a man who resorts to violence anytime someone looks at his woman is going overboard. But take a scenario, where some random guy walks up to a woman and mugs her at knifepoint, all the while her boyfriend has ran away. She catches him later up the road crying and shaking. Sorry but that guy's not acting like man. He should stand his ground, not run away. If he was on his own that's a different story.

[timlondon]

There's a difference of being able to protect and acting like a bodyguard. For instance, a man who resorts to violence anytime someone looks at his woman is going overboard. But take a scenario, where some random guy walks up to a woman and mugs her at knifepoint, all the while her boyfriend has ran away. She catches him later up the road crying and shaking. Sorry but that guy's not acting like man. He should stand his ground, not run away. If he was on his own that's a different story.

 

Are you intentionally misunderstanding this? because I haven't read anyone suggesting this in this thread

[frree]

Are you intentionally misunderstanding this? because I haven't read anyone suggesting this in this thread

 

No I'm just making a point that's all.

[Yaz]

So what if he could protect you, would he? That's the real question. It's all about balance.

 

This is true. I've never come accross a man who would stand up for me. Even when someone walks past and calls you fat, or ugly - I feel like the guy should stand up for me... maybe I'm just a little damaged. It feels nice to be defended sometimes. Like when friends in high school would stick up for you. It's not manly necessarily though - it's off-topic

[Batya33]

This is true. I've never come accross a man who would stand up for me. Even when someone walks past and calls you fat, or ugly - I feel like the guy should stand up for me... maybe I'm just a little damaged. It feels nice to be defended sometimes. Like when friends in high school would stick up for you. It's not manly necessarily though - it's off-topic

 

Or you could be flattered that they believe you're quite able to stand up for yourself.

[lalalollipops]

I think there needs to be a fine balance. Often the nice guys that can't get a girl has this tendency to lack a backbone and is not assertive enough. You can have alot of good qualities and be a nice guy AND be super attractive (it's confidence and ability to stand up for yourself, be opinionated)

[t3nder_v1ttl3s]

To all nice guys: are you too nice?

 

This is just my opinion - and I invite people to comment on what is 'nice' and what is 'too nice' about men. Because a lot of men complain they're nice, but can't find women... I read this article in the newspaper recently, and you can read the whole thing at the link below.

 

Personally, I find effeminate men really, REALLY unattractive. I think the guy who wrote this comment was spot on - what do you think?

 

 

 

Read the letter here and the advice: link removed

 

 

 

First of all, I think the person or people that wrote some of those comments you quoted, is an ass (or are asses). Second, not every guy that has a problem getting a gf is gay or effeminate. No one has ever accused me of being effeminate. If anything, most people tell me I am a bit intimidating and should be a bouncer at a club. Anyone that knows me knows that nothing girly comes accross from me. What I know I am is shy and inexperienced. By inexperienced I mean that I have not had a lot of gfs and I have not slept around. In fact, my numbers are still in the single digits which based on what a lot of other guys tell me is pretty good, or very bad depending on the person's perspective about such things.

 

But the drivel in some of those comments is exactly the kind of advice my friends give me. I need to man up, be a little more mean, learn to play the 'game' because all women are playing it so you have to learn to beat them at it in order to get any action. But that is the bottom line for many of them. Sex is like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Getting to 'sleep with her' is what it's all about. And no one seems to understand the guy like me who actually doesn't care about how many notches he can bang out of his bedpost. I'm not looking for sex. I am looking for affection, sincere devotion and love. I want a soul mate, not just a chance to mate. I have never been the kind of guy that just wants to run around bedding every hot chick I see.

 

Yeah, I'm a guy. I still have the same physiological reaction to seeing a hot woman. The bulge still bulges. But in the end sex to me is empty if all she is to me is a blow up doll that breathes. I want to know that being with me means something to her and I want it to mean something to me. I like the intense emotion that two people feel when they're falling in love. To me, mind games are the opposite of this. Playing hard to get is the opposite of this. Leading someone on and then blowing them off is the opposite of this. Sending mixed signals is the opposite of this. What is sad is that so many women seem to be playing the same game and have accepted that sex is the ultimate goal of this game themselves.

 

Sex has become the only end to the pursuit. Some of them want nothing more themselves. Reality is certainly not a Hollywood movie. Women are not all sweet, cuddly and looking for a 'nice' guy. Women do play emotional games, they manipulate and they screw with your head. I know because it has happened to me a few times. They avoid when they really want you. They flirt when they aren't remotely interested in you. Some of them actually do say no when they really mean yes. And some even say yes when they really mean no. How the hell is a guy ever supposed to 'figure' them out when they can't just say what they mean?

 

And for me it's not about being doted on. It's about a woman allowing herself to be vulnerable enough with me to tell me I'm sexy, attractive and show genuine affection and emotion for me. It's about her making sure I 'know', not 'think', not 'suspect', not 'read between the lines, pit of my stomach, I think I'm picking up on vibes', but a bona fide reaction that lets me know that all that innuendo is not being 'misinterpreted' but she really does feel the way her body language, semi vague comments and flirtation all say that she feels. In other words, I want to 'know' that she really does like me. That moment can come in many different ways but it has to come or I can't invest past a certain point in her. I won't make that move unless I get the reaction I am looking for from her.

 

So if that's a turn off then I guess it's a turn off. But it's as much a turn off to me when a woman plays hard to get, expects me to read her mind, flirts one minute and ignores the next, acts interested and then kicks me the curb and basically plays mind games, flirts with other guys to provoke jealousy or any number of other repugnant things as this side of a man might be a turn off to you. In the end I need to feel wanted and accepted by her in order for me to make her feel wanted and to accept her, and I don't feel that makes me less of a man.

[Neutron Star]

To all nice guys: are you too nice?

 

This is just my opinion - and I invite people to comment on what is 'nice' and what is 'too nice' about men. Because a lot of men complain they're nice, but can't find women... I read this article in the newspaper recently, and you can read the whole thing at the link below.

 

Personally, I find effeminate men really, REALLY unattractive. I think the guy who wrote this comment was spot on - what do you think?

 

 

 

Read the letter here and the advice: link removed

The guy who wrote it was an idiot. Actually I'd refer to him in far worse terms. He is 28 and never had a girlfriend and never held anybody. What do you want, a man made of stone?

 

This man is in for a rough ride. There's a good chance he will never be held in his life because he's getting to the age where never having a girlfriend means an automatic rejection by most women. I know this. I'm just like him but about 10 years older and probably even more emotionally charged about this. I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years he becomes like me, feeling bitter and hopeless.

[Neutron Star]

Well that's just awful. Making fun of a guy for saying he wants to hold someone.

 

And I say this as a guy who openly admits to be a no-nonsense, not terribly touchy-feely, occasionally emotionally harsh person.

 

It is a shameful, harmful lie that kindness and love are things reserved for women. Every emotionally healthy human being enjoys giving and receiving love, regardless of how much penis they have. That macho sex-only emotionally stunted Peter Pan crap admittedly works for a lot of people, men and women alike, but here's the thing...

 

How much must someone hate themselves, in order to feel repulsed by the idea of someone wanting to hold them? To be nice to them?

That's sadly the way the world works. No one cares about the detail that he is 28 and never held someone romantically or that I'm a decade older and have never held someone romantically. We're branded as the worst losers and the thoughts of the OP are very common.