verbal abuse.. and sick of it

[superfox]

Here's my 2 cents...

 

Supermom has a toddler and a 7 week old baby - SEVEN WEEKS OLD!!! Of course things are getting on top of her, and her husband! It's a stressful time in anyones life. This 'verbal abuse' comes accross to me like a small marital sniping match. No biggie. And I WAS in a verbally abusive relationship, to the point my son asked me what a c**t was as he'd heard his dad call me it. BIG difference between that and tidying up some clothes. Her husband is great 80% of the time. How many of us that have been in abusive relationships can say we were happy that amount of the time, not many i bet.

 

IMO, this isn't and shouldn't be seen as a divorce matter, she's still full of hormones and he's still stressing about feeding them all. I could be wrong but this is a common hiccup, not a red flag.

 

And for the person (forgot name) who is against divorce whatever the circumstances, i wish you'd walked in my shoes and seen the difference in happiness my children have now.

[GrowingIn]

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Take it or leave it. But it IS wrong to try to determine who is in the wrong in a marriage based on one person's viewpoint(That's not an opinion, it's a fact). It's wrong to try to think you can determine who the victim is in a marriage or what constitutes verbal abuse, or emotional abuse, or who the abuser is based on a one sided story. This is NEVER correct, unless like I said, there is some clear and undeniable evidence of some extreme wrongdoing or lines being crossed like in your case where you got molested. I don't need both sides of the story in that situation.

 

And yes people are capable of making up their own minds, but people also take bad advice. And personally, I cannot in good conscience support someone in splitting up their family, a decision that will affect her, her kids, her husband based on a simple rant from her that shows poor communication. Because she just might take it. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

So my question is, how can you? How can you feel good if it turns out she's frustrated, came to vent, but your advice made her go over the edge and then it turns out six months down the road, she made a big mistake and she majorly screwed up cause she was just as much at fault..but she didn't see it at the time.

 

I don't want that kind of dirt on my hands.

[GrowingIn]

And for the person (forgot name) who is against divorce whatever the circumstances, i wish you'd walked in my shoes and seen the difference in happiness my children have now.

 

I'm not against divorce whatever the circumstances. That's wordplay on behalf of a few members who do not understand what I am saying. I am divorced myself and feel it's for the best.

[superfox]

And for the person (forgot name) who is against divorce whatever the circumstances, i wish you'd walked in my shoes and seen the difference in happiness my children have now.

 

I'm not against divorce whatever the circumstances. That's wordplay on behalf of a few members who do not understand what I am saying. I am divorced myself and feel it's for the best.

i don't know whether your previous post was directed at me or not but i do NOT think this is a divorce matter! I think it's just a monthly spat, like yourself, i don't want dirt on my hands either!

[GrowingIn]

No it was directed at the person before you I just didn't quote it and you got your post in there before I did.

 

I agree with you, and once again, I feel she's not here for actual advice on saving her marriage, but support in her decision to go through with separation. And I just can't support her based on the story in her OP.

[GrowingIn]

Growing, Being incorrigible does not make you right.

 

You continually miss the point.

 

Lester, I am correctable, but it is you that is misunderstanding what I am saying, and honestly I'm tired of arguing.

 

So for the last time I'm going to make it clear. My feelings on the matter is that I cannot support someone in separation or divorce when I am only getting half the story, unless there is clear evidence of extreme abuse or some wrongdoing. I already stated much earlier in this thread, that I automatically just revert to my stance on: "stay married". I can say that because I don't see anything extreme going on here. It's actually one of the most common problems in relationships.

 

I didn't break my own advice. I have actually been following it the entire time. I feel frustrated that too many people do this and wish more people would refrain on passing judgment on what constitutes verbal, emotional abuse, or who is being abusive, who is the victim and who is not, in a relationship, especially in a marriage and so easily encourage them to follow through with their decision on separation simply based on one person's viewpoint.

 

THAT is all I am saying. It's just wrong. When it comes to these types of situations more people should practice taking everything that's said with a grain of salt! I really don't know how else to explain it.

[Seraphim]

Well I am going to assume she has reasonable powers of deduction and a sense of reason and the ability to "take things with a grain of salt" and not assume she is some hysterical being on the verge of a mental break down. Is that ok with everyone? Does that match people's immpecably "correct" standards?

[agent1607307371]

Mod Note: Stay on topic.

[greywolf]

supermom, you do not need to stay in a marriage just for the kids. They will be fine.

 

I remember I must have been 9 or 10 when I wished my dad was dead so that my mom could marry someone else. They finally got divorced when I was 16 and my thought process at the time was, "it's about time." I also had very little respect for my mom for putting up with my dad. My image of what a strong woman was did not match my mom. She stood up for herself and us when she had to, but she was still with someone who belittled her and treated her like an object, and I looked down on her for a very long time.

[supermom10]

Wow.. didnt think my post would turn into this.. haha

 

Lester-- received books today they are amazing thank you. Ive already completely read the ladies one, and halfway through the mens one... which will be slipped into my husbands bag as he leaves for work tonight.

 

I do not think our problems are a reason for divorce either. I think if we could both learn to better communicate our needs, wants, frustrations, and anger we will be better off. The book Lester recommended is exactly what we both need to do.

 

I plan to sit down with him tonight (we havent talked since that night still), and have a conversation that will seem less attacking to him and approach his needs better (thanks to the book, and what I can do on my end.) He needs to know he needs to take his mental illness more seriously.. he needs to go back to counseling (preferably both of us together), and he needs to put some effort to change some things.. if hes still not willing... I do have custody papers ready to go. Hopefully that will be enough of a wake up call to him to not have to go through with it.

 

Victoria- thanks for all your support, and you have a lot of my respect. I was a special ed teacher, and currently getting my masters in special education. Those children are a blessing, and it takes a special person to raise one!! Plus the fact your husband as a mental illness as well.. my heart goes out to you!!

 

And growing-- thanks for your opinion. you can be done now..

[supermom10]

And superfox.. I appreciate your opinion as well.. and sadly.. c*** is a common word used around here as well. I am terrified my two year old will start saying it.. or think its okay to tell people to shut up!! Maybe its not 'verbal abuse' but its enough that I refuse to deal with.

[GrowingIn]

No problem and read the book fast

 

I learned one thing the hard way and it was too late. Quite often in a marriage when you feel like you have given everything you could possibly give......is exactly the time when you have to be most giving and more understanding. It's crazy. It's the part most of us miss. That's what that whole: "in a marriage you have to give more and take less in return" is about.

 

The way I always forget to look at it in those situations is like this: I give more then I take back but it doesn't mean it's not reciprocated. The part that's extra goes to fill up that thing called marriage. If you're only giving what you get in return, what's left over for the marriage? Maybe next time I'll remember.

 

PS: That goes for the mentality of slipping him the book into his bag. I would not recommend that at this point. You do what it says in the book. Don't worry about "he needs to do the same thing while I'm doing it". Just see what happens. If you're wrong you can always divorce next month, or next year or whenever you feel like it.

[No Words]

victoria... it isn't about the *right*... it's about dealing with someone being an * * * * * * * , once in a while...

 

i have to agree with growingin... if this guy is a good husband, a good dad, etc, & he screws up (most likely because of the frikkin' stress associated with working night shift to provide for a family) then supermom ought to put things into a human perspective, & not look to demand more from someone she loves more than they can give...

 

*continuous* verbal abuse, or even verbal abuse used with *intent* to harm, is wrong.. but when people just screw up?

 

forgive them & go on...

 

hell, supermom...

 

my grandmother used to throw ***cast iron frying pans*** at my granddad when he got out of line...

 

& they loved each other deeply & raised a *crapload* of kids who ****ALL**** had life long marriages & families for which basic necessities were provided... -and please, no critique on 'basic necessities'... because the fact is, after you have those & see the kind of love that gives them, even when you are being a dumb a kid, in that kind of situation being an arse boils down to **personal choice**...

 

now... maybe hubby is *being an arse...

 

if he does this even once every TWO weeks, then yeah, you can decide if you really want to be selfish & weak enough that you will sacrifice your family & the possibility stability of your children's futures because you have a thin skin...

 

*assuming* you are describing it accurately & not making it softer than it is, just because you love him.

 

my recommendation would be to get a couple of big, freaking frying pans, & when he talks to you that way again, freaking wail them at him close enough to know that the next one won't miss...

 

i'm not advocating violence, just what worked for gramma...

 

you man probably HATES his frikkin' job, HATES his routine, & HATES that he has do a million things he would rather not do, in order to be what he knows he *should* be...

 

& that is a father and a husband whom *LOVES* you...

 

i don't know all the details, and i am NOT... ****NOT**** justifying his actions, and in fact, yes, i would **recommend** that if he *presumes* this to be a *right*, you need to bail...

 

but if he just goes over the edge because work is getting to him, or the stress of being a dad?

 

BFD..

big

frikkin'

deal...

 

growingin is right, and yes, it *does* make you the more mature, but...

 

he's dealing with nearly being.. hell.. almost being made an automaton, perhaps...

 

& he's doing it for you & the family you both have...

 

maybe being mean to you is the way he lets out a portion of his, yes, aggressive male nature, which absolutely & positively you do *********NOT********* deserve...

 

however.. this is an aspect of gender which males often need to express or deal with...

 

i wonder if... perhaps..

 

 

i dunno.. maybe he should enroll in martial arts, or a sparring club.. or maybe rowing.. something sociable, but physically very taxing..

 

hell.. maybe even chopping wood...

 

but men often have a problem with not being able to release their physical energy, because modern obstructions are often not physical in nature...

 

i personally *had* to find physically demanding work in my youth, and have stayed with it, because my body is a beautifull machine that loves to be used...

 

many men are that way...

 

many...

 

 

i'm not justifying what he does.. i'm just saying if he needs a vent for his aggression,maybe you can find something on the physical level that is, if not productive, at least expressive...

 

but really.. if this happens *once* a month????

 

& if it is no more intense than you have said?

 

i dun think it's really worth worrying about, too much...

 

good luck, & please don't be rash...

 

peace,

 

john

[greywolf]

No words, would you give that same advice to a man? To throw a pan at her when he thought she was out of line?

[Seraphim]

Well I am sorry but I do not consider throwing pans at people and calling them disgusting names and character assassination as a "normal" part of marriage. Yes, people are human, HOWEVER there IS a more adult way to communicate than to call some one the C word or throw things at them. That is just malarky to me. Last time I checked it was not 1830 and women do not HAVE to put up with this crap. What everyone can put up with as their limit is NOT the same, so it is pretty pretentious to tell her what her limit should be.

[Seraphim]

I am really glad you want to give your marriage a go. If you do everything you can to make it work IF you have to walk away you know you did everything you could and you have nothing to regret. See if you can encourage him to go to couples counseling and maybe counseling on his own. My husband takes Zoloft and he also talks to a psychiatrist and a psychologist and for whatever reason he has decided to open up to them and actually talk about the reason for his anxiety. (which was the way his dad treated him as a kid. His dad told him that his feelings were of no consequence and the only person's who's feelings and wishes that mattered were his father's. His dad is an enormous bully and my husband was bullied by his dad from the time he was a toddler.) Finally my husband has realized it does not matter one wit what his father thinks of him and he is an 80 year old old man now.Plus my husband plays an enormous amount of sports, he plays baseball and soccer and hockey and he runs and lifts weights . He does 90% of these things every single week, so he gets to relieve a lot of stress this way Maybe your husband needs more exercise..As long as you are BOTH willing to work at more respect and better communication you have a good shot.

[GrowingIn]

No words, would you give that same advice to a man? To throw a pan at her when he thought she was out of line?

 

That depends. Is she bigger than him? If not, of course not. You use plates that way they crack and have a bigger impact. WHHHHHHHHHAM! Double the scare and shock. Go for the head that way it won't leave a mark (NOTE: THIS WAS A JOKE and it's sad that I actually have to put this disclaimer)

 

Please.....you and I both know if a man retaliated with that, he's going to end up in jail. I actually get what he's talking about. That was "their way of fighting" and relieving stress. I agree everyone needs to release stress, frustration and anger every once in awhile and while I don't recommend his method, he does have a point about not taking those moments personally. I didn't want to mention it earlier but there was a part where supermom said he keeps his mouth shut at work and he should "keep his mouth shut when he comes home" which is basically asking that he should be walking on eggshells. There's few things more horrible than that feeling in a relationship.

 

This reminded me of an interesting story. I had a childhood friend. His father used to get so mad during sports games he threw stuff when his team was losing. Glasses, furniture, whatever. And he watched A LOT of games. I wasn't around for that part when all that was going on. But I was around for the part to see how his wife dealt with it: she bought a basket full of stuffed beanie balls and other soft objects and would place it next to his arm chair. Problem solved. No divorce, therapy or anger management needed.

 

Sometimes all it takes is a moment of inspiration, wit and that special woman's touch to resolve just about any major issue.

[RadicalDreamer]

I didn't want to mention it earlier but there was a part where supermom said he keeps his mouth shut at work and he should "keep his mouth shut when he comes home" which is basically asking that he should be walking on eggshells. There's few things more horrible than that feeling in a relationship.

It's not keeping his mouth shut that she seems to be asking for, but to be talked to with at least as much respect as the people at his place of employment. She's basically assuming that perhaps his co-workers stress him out as much as she does, and that if he can reign it in with them, he should be able to reign it in with her. That may not be the case. But not only is this entirely reasonable, it's actually aiming rather low. One's spouse should have much more than that, especially since we spend less time on average with our spouses than we do with co-workers.

 

It also sounds like the OP seems to be doing some eggshell-walking as it is. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, perhaps? As you said, it's a terrible feeling in a relationship, but it's even worse when it's one-way.

 

As for the stress of a job, I once worked over 64 hours a week between two jobs (one physically demanding that I absolutely loathed, the other not as much, but more mentally stressful.) One of those was a night shift. After having been unemployed for seven months last year, I will say that taking care of a child all day long is a much, much, much, much, much MUCH more stressful job. Compound to this that the OP's husband works night shift. Basically, it sounds like the only time the OP ISN'T working is when the children are asleep and she's probably about ready for bed herself.

 

Unless you're in a war zone, or your job is to be a target for a knife-throwing circus act, or possibly the leader of a nation, there simply is no job more taxing, stressful, demanding and filled with soul-crushing responsibility than raising children and maintaining a home. Period. If the stress of the job makes it okay for him to talk to her the way she says he does "every once in a while," then she's well-entitled to be slinging some verbal venom of her own with no further retaliation.

 

But if she's not--and I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt--and if she is being respectful and attentive to him, she has EVERY RIGHT to expect that in return. Love and respect aren't "nice things to have" in a marriage, they're intrinsic needs. That 80% positive can be very easily undermined by a particularly nasty 20%, I don't care how thick you think your skin is.

 

There is no excuse for being called the c-word like the OP mentioned above. None. It goes without saying, but personal insults of any kind should be as taboo as pork in a kosher deli.

 

Yes, one-off storms will come up every great once in a while. A loved one dies, a tornado comes, you 're stranded in the woods with no water, you find out you have a terminal disease. Yeah, it's understandable to get a little unhinged when some extra-super-rare-ultra-stressful situation comes up. But the daily grind shouldn't prompt more than maybe some mild frustration and the occasional tense conversation, a VERY occasional, very brief spat at the very worst. I'd say 20% of the time is a bit much. I'll give the OP's husband the benefit of the doubt and assume that he at least apologizes for saying harsh things somewhat soon after saying them.

 

I'm not saying divorce is the answer. I am saying that counseling is, and it HAS to be accompanied by a willingness to change. Maybe that change has to work both ways. It's quite possible that the OP is doing something she is unaware of, that causes him to be like this. Like I said. Counseling.

 

Perhaps it's not verbal abuse. Perhaps it is. But of all the people posting on this thread, she is absolutely the best-qualified person to make that call, because she lives with it. She knows things about her situation that no one else on here will. Hence why so many are giving her the benefit of the doubt.

 

There is a very human tendency on these forums to project our own frustrations and experience on others' posts. That said, I will end with this: When someone has done all they can, gone as far as they can go, has already tried every compromise they know how to in order to make their marriage work, and that effort is not met by their partner, few things are more aggravating than someone shouting "Hey, come on, a marriage takes work and compromise!" at you from the sidelines.

[Seraphim]

If I could give you a plus 10 I would. Awesome!

[90_hour_sleep]

to growing...

 

i applaud you for your attempt at maintaining balance. not an easy task. unfortunately, i think you started off on the wrong foot...and your early posts were perceived as attacks against other posters. i was sorry to see the way the thread progressed...because you offer an excellent overall perspective, in my opinion (despite the many misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions that you were countered with). it's very worthwhile to explore the other side of the fence...without making exaggerated judgements of the people who aren't here to share their side of things.

 

never underestimate the power of the collective...and the need to feel validated...and validate each other to keep the polarity strong.

 

for what it's worth...any post that comes from a place of frustration isn't rational. it's emotionallly charged...and irrational. and in terms of doing what's best for a poster...that's a tough call. on the one hand...people end up here feeling the bite of vulnerability...and perhaps what they need most in those initial moments is a sense of validation. just a general feeling that things are going to be okay. "it's okay. it makes sense that you're feeling the way you feel." unfortunately...that validation is often focussed externally. we get into attack mode against the one who isn't here...the often-cases subject of the original post. and then the theme of posting become pejorative...and any attempt to counter that is met with stiff resistance...and often counter-attack (as you've experienced first hand, growing).

 

the other aspect is the element of guidance. and this is very different than validation. guidance is about exploration. it's not about polarization. it's about being open to hearing all perspectives...not just one. it's about discovering alternatives. i question the post which aims to discredit another human being that is a part of a marriage...in an attempt to make things ''better''. how does it make things better to polarize a person against her spouse? does that promote growth within the union...or does it promote separation?

 

it's one thing to be aware. but once that awareness has been found...energies should be focussed on solutions...not on maintaining separation.

 

i think a willingness to explore shows a great deal of emotional maturity. to be able to examine your own role in a situation. to put yourself in the other's shoes for a few minutes. to get away from the ''t*t for tat'' mentality and focus energy on finding understanding...even when you can't find absolute agreement. put emphasis on remaining neutral. break the cycle of attack and defend...and learn to communicate in a way the breeds understanding.

 

just my two cents though.

 

and supermom...sounds like you've found some books on relationship? if you have a chance, Al Turtle is a valuable resource in that department. if you're interested in maintaining your relationship with your husband...of understanding...he's got a great website.

 

cheers

[GrowingIn]

90_hour_sleep, I couldn't agree more with this statement:

to put yourself in the other's shoes for a few minutes.

 

Yeah, that's basically key and also the key to empathy. And when we get sucked in to our own unmet needs and problems and point of view it is the one thing most people do not practice which can paint an different picture on the entire matter. I have been practicing it religiously for some time now. I try to teach my partner the same thing. Even when I am certain that I have been wronged, I feel wronged and believe 100% I'm in the right I still go back over the situation and ask myself: "if I was in her shoes, how would I feel?" I also use it when I try to explain something to someone....if you were in my shoes, how would you feel?

 

 

RadicalDreamer, while I agree with what you are saying, including certain words such as the C word just not being acceptable, it's all based on if all of your benefits of the doubt were true and that's just the thing. You can't be certain of all of those benefits of doubts from a frustrated person's point of view and base the rest of it entirely on assumptions. From some of the lines supermom posted, there's certainly appears to be some snapping back going on there as well but again I'm just not going to sit here and analyze the entire situation on a conversation or based on a few lines of words and make assumptions. In fact when someone is frustrated and feeling wronged and are looking for support, quite often the practice of leaving out certain things we may have said, or amplifying other things is put into effect in order to make our case. Which is once again why I am against supporting someone in their decision to separate or divorce based on a situation like this.

[RadicalDreamer]

I understand completely, GrowingIn, and I am certainly not suggesting anything as rash as divorcing over this. I'm just saying, it does need attention, and the solution might not be to just "toughen up."

 

Perhaps I'm falling into the trap of projecting my own experience upon this, but I'll be frank- I put up with a lot in my own marriage, and shoved my own needs to the side. I kept thinking that if I just jumped through a few more hoops, sacrificed just a little more, things would get better. She, like the OP's husband, is "wonderful." A beautiful, lovely woman with a heart of gold. But she wasn't happy, and I eventually got tired of being the one who suffered for it. In fact, it's much harder to confront someone when we know they don't mean to hurt us.

 

I'm not saying I did everything right, just that I tried in every way I knew how. In all fairness, I should have sought therapy and counseling long before I let my frustrations get the better of me. Unfortunately, I handled it the wrong way and had an emotional affair. Maybe if I had had someone "safe" to talk to, to listen to me and tell me "you need to do something about this," instead of the little voice in my head telling me "You just need to do more, be better, look at yourself" I might have been able to avoid even coming to that fork in the road in the first place.

 

I appreciate what you're doing, to be the balancing voice- the whole point of posting on here SHOULD be to get multiple perspectives, as well as some affirmation. I do get it. I'm coming from my life's experience, and you're coming from yours, as is everyone else on here. That's all we can do, really.

 

Some people really do need to turn the lens on themselves. Some people do have a moral blind-spot that activates whenever they look in the mirror. But for others... there's a comfort in self-blame. It gives the illusion of control. Feeding into that can be every bit as dangerous as telling someone who does need to blame themselves not to do so. And that's why I suggest counseling for the OP and her husband, because we don't really know. That's probably the best way to know for sure.

[Brenda Lee]

Your not wrong for considering a split. But, before you do why don't you try counseling. Sounds like it is needed. He doesn't need to talk down to you like that and it's unacceptable. It also sounds like he wants perfection and likes blaming you for whatever he can find to pick at. You deserve respect and your not getting that, it also sounds like he is very dependent on you to fix everything. You don't say rather you work or not, but if you did, then you would be responsible for the job and all personal issues at home. He has to learn to pick up the slack, that is what partners in marriage is about. Good luck to you. You deserve happiness.