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Thanks IAG. I always like to hear your thoughts on things...because I think we've got some similarities when it comes to the inner workings. One of life's strange ironies with your Grandma. Almost poetic though...when viewed from the context of your emotional metamorphosis (if that's even accurate). Are you more free with your sadness now?

 

I'm starting to wonder if some of us are just sort of hard-wired for emotional difficulty when it comes to relationships. Like, it's just going to take longer to figure it out to the extent that it's possible to make a serious go of it with someone. This last one feels different than the others. I DO feel as though she was someone who shared a very similar life vision. That's not all that common for me. Such a massive communication barrier though. At times it felt impossible to reach each other. Our habituated responses were exactly what the other needed to rocket off into non-presense -- what I tend to think of as being hooked...pulled away...gone. So much reciprocation on that front.

 

She wants to be friends. And even though it was one of those amicable, mutual endings...I don't think I want the same thing. I don't know how to find the degree of separation that I need to detach while remaining engaged on a friendly level.

 

Time and space.

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I do feel freer with my sadness now, yes. I had a few weeks of body wracking crying spells after my grandma passed. I was able to show my sadness in front of my family and friends too, to cry at the funeral, to speak about her without shutting down emotionally. That is a new experience for me. Regular old grief.

 

I've wondered some of the same things you have. If some of us aren't just hard wired a little differently. Maybe. Maybe that and life experiences we've had too, the mix of it together.

 

I'm glad you were able to share something special with her. I totally understand why being friends right away isn't something you necessarily want or can do. It makes me think of something you posted here a long time ago that is in someone's (i'll remember after posting this!) sig line and the wisdom of it holds. Even when it sucks that it does, it does. About space inspiring clarity and growth. and there is probably some significant take away from what it was betweeen you two that also set off each others particular mechanisms that made it difficult to reach each other sometimes.

 

Anyways, wishing you well. People here thinking of you if you want to chat, or, if you don't.

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Thanks IAG. Perhaps there's hope for me to become an emotionally healthy individual, capable of experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion. Your experience seems to speak to the capacity for trauma to inspire growth. Life provides opportunity for us to be broken down in just the right ways. It's great that you were ready for it...or at least, open to it when it happened. Thanks for sharing that.

 

Space promotes clarity and inspires growth.

 

It sure does. Such a helpful reminder I find. I'm pretty okay with space. Sometimes I get a bit crazy with the thoughts of permanence -- that the way things are right now is the way they're going to stay. Like if I'm stuck...I'm always going to be stuck. I'm glad enough has happened to me in life that I'm able to recognize the folly in that way of thinking. It helps me to navigate the crazy.

 

I'd like to figure out my hermit-ing tendencies. And I shied away from vulnerability big-time. I'm actually smiling right now...because it's almost comical how predictable certain interactions became.

 

1. She says something

2. I feel the hook sink in...

3. She feels that something's up with me...

4. I say I'm fine

5. She pushes at it...begins to build emotionally...

6. I retreat further...and begin to build emotionally...

7. Her emotional level reaches an apex...and her 'hook' is set...

8. By this time, I've completely shut down.

 

Interestingly enough...many times we navigated through this without feeling completely alienated from each other.

 

The other interesting thing is that there seems to be a very obvious solution. Realize that the other person is not out to get you. Recognize when the hooks are set. Practice being loving and compassionate while in the midst of the emotional torrent. Ha. How does anyone do that? I guess that's where selflessness comes into play...and a level of established trust and security with the other. And...why pride is such a fundamentally useless expression in the context of relationships. We all have to 'be the bigger person' in these situations. Which actually takes a tremendous amount of courage. Well...it does for me anyway.

 

It's such a stupid cycle. I know how prevalent it is. I'm sure there are a 100 threads a day on ENA that have this cycle at the root. So unnecessary.

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1. She says something

2. I feel the hook sink in...

3. She feels that something's up with me...

4. I say I'm fine

5. She pushes at it...begins to build emotionally...

6. I retreat further...and begin to build emotionally...

7. Her emotional level reaches an apex...and her 'hook' is set...

8. By this time, I've completely shut down.

 

This sounds like what Al Turtle calls the avoider-clinger dynamic. Something I'd experienced but never understood until coming to eNA and then reading some of his website. Different styles/needs that makes the other feel less than safe in the conversation, resulting in behavior that unintentionally exacerbates the situation. No one is to blame, but it's tough navigating.

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Do you not consider yourself an emotionally healthy individual? You may have your problems like most of us out there, but overall?

 

It's really interesting. Hermit like tendencies in relationships. The shutting down and disengaging. I'm curious what you yourself will find as you work on that. It's something that I'm constantly trying to work on too. Basically same tendency as you. Would even myself use words like pride and courage when discussing it! Funny that. Maybe that is part of why I like reading your journal so much. There is always something I think about after, helps me work through my own things.

 

Then again too, sometimes it is good to just give yourself a break from trying to figure everything out.

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This sounds like what Al Turtle calls the avoider-clinger dynamic. Something I'd experienced but never understood until coming to eNA and then reading some of his website. Different styles/needs that makes the other feel less than safe in the conversation, resulting in behavior that unintentionally exacerbates the situation. No one is to blame, but it's tough navigating.

 

Yes. Neither of us felt all that safe in the majority of the interactions. It made for a particularly frustrating and hurtful dynamic. I thought it'd be easier to work through with the knowledge of what was happening on our side. It didn't. It's like the patterns were too deeply engrained. I think that's where courage comes into play. Stubbornness is one of my less-than-admirable qualities.

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Do you not consider yourself an emotionally healthy individual? You may have your problems like most of us out there, but overall?

 

It's really interesting. Hermit like tendencies in relationships. The shutting down and disengaging. I'm curious what you yourself will find as you work on that. It's something that I'm constantly trying to work on too. Basically same tendency as you. Would even myself use words like pride and courage when discussing it! Funny that. Maybe that is part of why I like reading your journal so much. There is always something I think about after, helps me work through my own things.

 

Then again too, sometimes it is good to just give yourself a break from trying to figure everything out.

 

You know...I really don't know. I suppose I'd have a more chaotic life if my emotional health was really as bad as I tend to think it is. I do have a tendency to amplify some of the things that I don't feel great about. Overall...I think I'm doing alright. Thanks for asking the question. Another good reminder.

 

IAG...my internet doppleganger. Whatever you're getting from me...it's reciprocal.

 

And you're right...breaks are good I think.

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Hugs 90. Sorry to read about your relationship. I think JN makes excellent points. I've been in a similar dynamic, And that certainly takes a toll on relationships at best. I don't have the energy for it anymore. It's wearying for both people.

 

Thanks for checking in, Silver. I'm not sure I have the energy either. It's pretty frustrating...and more than a bit unfortunate when you get along with the person in so many other ways. More tools needed in the toolbox I guess. It's always been the same pattern for me. This one was just amplified.

 

How've you been?

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Hi 90. In many ways I am very well and blessed thank you. I made a big move to the country and living on an amazing property on my own which is good. I took a work transfer, but unfortunately, that whole workplace has become unstable due to funding. That's been a worry, but I will just find something else if my job folds. D's cancer has not returned. We are friends more than anything although of course, I don't get to see him often because of the distance.

 

I have a feeling you would really like where I live - mud brick straw bale home with a lift on 18 acres of wilderness sanctuary adjoining a state forest. No electricity, but I have solar and gas which is fine.

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I know what you mean about sharing the same vision too - I thought we both wanted so much of the same life - we both wanted to live in the country on a small farm with all our animals and wildlife, we are both vegetarian, I thought he was the most handsome man I ever knew, and early on at least, I think he thought I was very attractive. I guess he just didn't love me that way, and eventually I just gave up. I still have my sad moments about it, but I am no longer devastated.

 

I'm not sure if you are like him. I ended up feeling I was constantly walking on eggshells around him. He would have these hostile outbursts, and he didn't do the little things most do with women they love in that way.

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The place does sound nice, Silver. Similar to where I'm at. I didn't realize D had cancer. I sort of disappeared from this place for a time, and really lost touch with others' journeys. You've had your own share of struggles it seems. Does it ever get any easier? And I wonder if his personal struggles contributed to his less than loving nature in the relationship. I don't mean to dredge up the past. But, it sounds like you've moved past the worst of it. Still...I'm sorry to hear the way it played out. I remember how amazing everything was for you in the beginning. It's hard to hear about things going sour the way they do.

 

Funny...lots of eggshells over here too. I don't know if I'm like him either. I tend to be the more passive sort in relationships. Outbursts aren't really my thing. But I do tend to feel quite strongly about things...and am prone to going silent...retreating. I don't think that's any easier to deal with though. It's just a different way of dealing with the same issues. The saddest part for me is that I feel like we were so close. Like if we could've just found a way to gain that last inch, we'd have moved into that territory where we were teammates...partners in crime...life partners. I wasn't quite there though. Not quite to the point where all the struggle felt worthwhile. Where I could step outside of my narrow field of vision and courageously surrender to the vulnerability. I don't know how to learn that lesson it seems. Even now, I can imagine myself doing the same things again. It's such an aggravating feeling. So sticky.

 

Sigh. Where to go from here. I don't know. Still feeling like I'm in limbo. Almost undecided. I can't tell if it's unhealthy attachment...or if I'm just ready to make the stand here and commit to something...vulnerability and all. I just can't shake the feeling that it's always going to come to this until I deal with it. It'll happen next time...and the time after that...and the time after that. Self-fulfilling prophecies aside...it could be that relationships are necessary for me to move through this. What's keeping me from opening to that. Pride? Stubbornness?

 

Maybe this is just how it is. One person is more ready than the other to separate. More ready to separate. Ugh. That's a crazy statement in itself.

 

I know I can't be just a friend right now. We did that today...and it tore a chunk out of me.

 

How do you do it, Silver? Friends. I don't think I'm strong enough for that. I never have been.

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I'm sorry you're in this place...again.

 

The saddest part for me is that I feel like we were so close. Like if we could've just found a way to gain that last inch, we'd have moved into that territory where we were teammates...partners in crime...life partners.

 

And yet, you've also said (or at least I felt you were alluding to this relationship, and more than once I think) that "intuitively" you felt that this relationship was somehow not right for you, or that it was embarked upon against your better judgement. Or have I interpreted that wrongly? You've expressed doubts along the lines of, "I knew this might not work", but they were so oblique, I wasn't sure if this is what you were talking about.

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I'm sorry you're in this place...again.

 

 

 

And yet, you've also said (or at least I felt you were alluding to this relationship, and more than once I think) that "intuitively" you felt that this relationship was somehow not right for you, or that it was embarked upon against your better judgement. Or have I interpreted that wrongly? You've expressed doubts along the lines of, "I knew this might not work", but they were so oblique, I wasn't sure if this is what you were talking about.

 

Oblique. No surprises there, right? Thanks for taking a moment to offer your thoughts.

 

Yep. There have been plenty of doubts along the way. Plenty of hiccups. Plenty of stumbling and tripping up and general bouts of discomfort. You didn't misinterpret.

 

And yet, even with those reflections, I've wondered if that's just my way of standing in my own way. When things get tough...I settle into my little sanctuary of thought...and cozy up for the long winter ahead. There's no part of me that has ever let go completely with that feeling of discomfort. Some people cling to the person. I cling to that piece of sanctuary where I know I'm safe.

 

Is it possible that my 'gut' is a conditioned response that's keeping me from taking the next step in relating with others? I'm always the loose end in relationships. Always the one who is undecided. Unwilling to take the leap of faith. It's definitely a pattern. So...what does that mean? Is my gut right? Or do I just need to man up and move through the discomfort of letting someone see me at my most vulnerable?

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Hoping this is constructive...

am prone to going silent...retreating

 

This sort of conflict avoidance is an impediment to trust and intimacy, a form of protection that basically says, I value my emotional safety/energy/status unhappy quo more than I value speaking my mind and making it better.

 

It's an investment in oneself at the expense of the relationship. Often, it gives the other person the impression that you are less invested than you think you are.

 

When my husband withdrew, i felt like i was married to myself, which is unsatisfying. When the situation didn't change, it became a lonely existence to live with my silently suffering"yes" man spouse.

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Hoping this is constructive...

 

 

This sort of conflict avoidance is an impediment to trust and intimacy, a form of protection that basically says, I value my emotional safety/energy/status unhappy quo more than I value speaking my mind and making it better.

 

It's an investment in oneself at the expense of the relationship. Often, it gives the other person the impression that you are less invested than you think you are.

 

When my husband withdrew, i felt like i was married to myself, which is unsatisfying. When the situation didn't change, it became a lonely existence to live with my silently suffering"yes" man spouse.

 

Status unhappy quo.

 

Thanks ITC. Constructive, yes.

 

I think my last post touched a bit on what you've said. More food for thought...

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Status unhappy quo.

 

Thanks ITC. Constructive, yes.

 

I think my last post touched a bit on what you've said. More food for thought...

 

Indeed your post does get at this dynamic. Good for you for looking at hard lessons while dealing with this.

 

I am reminded of a friend, hearts ago, who used to tell me i was oblique as a way of protecting myself. Then, i couldn't understand what she meant. I read your post and remember....

 

As you resolve your intimacy avoidance patterns, you may find new strengths arising in other areas of your life, as a nice bonus for the hard work.

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As you resolve your intimacy avoidance patterns, you may find new strengths arising in other areas of your life, as a nice bonus for the hard work.

 

I'm hoping I can commit to doing some work again. It's been a few years since I invested in myself in that way. I think I've been nurturing other areas of life, to the detriment of my personal development perhaps. I do seem to be motivated by my own internal grief though. I've discovered I can read again. Looking forward to that.

 

I know I'm a bad communicator. Not to be an unfair self-critic. I just know that it's true. I've spent my life interacting with other bad communicators too. In fact, I think just about everyone I've ever known (with a few very notable exceptions) is/was a bad communicator (at least in terms of conflict resolution). It's tempting to suggest that human beings are inherently bad communicators.

 

I'd like to be better at it. I'd like to be able to process emotion in such a way that I can relate the feelings in a way that someone else can understand. Honestly, I don't know that I've ever consistently done that. I'm sure there have been a few isolated incidents.

 

I went from having a raging temper as a child, to seething in passive aggressiveness later in life. I'm sure the two are related. I've never consistently shared important information in relationships. I've invested heavily in my accumulated personal truths. I've withheld, denied, defended, and diverted. So many barriers.

 

I know it's going to happen again.

 

I'll call the last one ''L''.

 

L and I talked a bit today. We saw each other yesterday, and it felt strange. Funny how things can be the same, and yet so different. It was tough to see her...and interact with her and others. I struggled with that. She feels exhausted by the relationship (or what was a relationship). But feels strongly about remaining friendly. There was some honest conversation about the feelings. Where she's at. Where I'm at. There was listening...and engaging. Of course, it's easier with separation. I'm still struggling with the idea of friendship. I'd like to get to that place where I can be free of expectations...free of agenda.

 

I wonder if we could learn to communicate better...together. It's all about conflict. Who better to learn with than someone you've had loads of conflict with? Maybe I'm being naive.

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Hi 90. Well, I knew I wanted to remain friends because I know if his cancer comes back, I couldn't bear to not be there, just couldn't live with that. I will add that I separated from my sons father more than 20 years ago, and I would feel distraught if something bad happened to him, and I would support him if he wanted - but he has a partner and is happy. Funny, cause there have been other men in my life I don't feel that way about, but this is just how it is for me.

 

For me also, I am in my early 50s, and so it's sort of different for me in some ways than for a younger person.

 

Strangely, since I posted here, I have seen him, and he seems to have done a major turnaround. Spent time over the weekend also with his family, and said to all of them that he knew he had become a different person for a while prior to the diagnosis and then for some time after the chemotherapy stopped. He seems happy and well.

 

Do you think you could handle remaining friends but not seeing much of her- at least for a while. I was reminded over the weekend about our shared visions and certain views about some things that are important to both of us. It would be hard to meet someone like that again I think.

 

Maybe you need to take time out for introspection and possibly change. I think that perhaps you haven't been away from her long enough to know how you feel or what you really want.

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Thanks Silver.

 

You're right of course. There hasn't been enough time. We've slowly been withdrawing over the last few months. She moved out a couple months back...and away (sort of). So, I think the physical space should be easy enough to maintain. She does wander into my neck of the woods sometimes; but, it's not so often that it'll be a huge impediment to the healing process.

 

I've definitely been in a bit of a 'panic mode' almost, which is really not a good place to be in terms of clear thinking. I think we've tied up a few loose ends...and now it's time to settle in to actually being apart. Thanks for the reminder.

 

I've never remained friends with anyone. Could just be circumstantial. I think it's just easier for some people to move on completely. No looking back. But it's nice to hear that you still care for the men you've been with...that you're there to support them if they ask that of you. I've got a new friend where I'm living who has similar experience in that sense. She tends to keep people close. And it seems like through those new friendships (new, as in how they've evolved), there's some shared insight that is valuable to all involved. Doesn't work with everyone...or for everyone...but sometimes it's the right thing.

 

I'll keep it in mind...remaining friends. Much easier with the space to achieve that I think. We both need time to recoup our energies...and consider where to go next.

 

Do you feel your friendship with D is a mutual one? How does he feel about it?

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Well 90, I think now that he definitely considers us more than friends. He says often that he hasn't felt the same since I moved away. For him especially, the distance has been a very good thing - mostly because it is closeness which I am causes a type of panic or at least discomfort for some people, and he is one of those people. He has a fear - which was not unfounded in the past - of being trapped into a mediocre existence in the suburbs. His wife refused to drive even though he had bought her a nice car, and he felt she expected him to be her "life support system". There is that fear of being suffocated by another person. Of course, I only have that info from him, but that seems to be the way he sees it. For a number of reasons, I feel it best to always be holding back at least a little of myself with him, but maybe that is a healthy way to be - always keeping part of myself for myself.

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Autonomy. I think you're right. And there's definitely a difference between being 'guarded', and maintaining that sense of autonomy.

 

Interestingly enough, I share a bit of that fear. Not to the same degree by the sounds of it, but I definitely feel a bit anxious when I think about supporting someone -- at least, when it doesn't feel voluntary...when there's an expectation.

 

How are you feeling about things now? Is it 'just friends' for you? That's the impression I got from your earlier posts.

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