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More fun . . . poor darling shot himself in the head. What a waste - a beautiful soul too he was.


When someone that sensitive, and already fragile, was thrust into the world of corporate rock, fame and material wealth, it must have been overpowering.


When you are, by nature, a seeker, what happens when you find, what everyone else deems, success; and not find happiness. What else is there to find? Who knows what made him seek oblivion? I must admit, I haven't read his story, but I love his music.....especially "Come as You Are"

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I wasn't into his music Elcie, but I have this DVD, don't remember the name of it offhand, but it is a documentary about the grunge groups in Seattle in the 80's. There's a large part of it about Kurt Cobain, and after seeing it, I greatly admire him and think he was beautiful. From what I can make out, one of the reasons he suicided was that he believed he had completely compromised his values by becoming manufactured by the music industry and capitalism. In particular, the clothese that he wore which he'd bought from supermarkets became copied by designers and sold up at enormously marked up prices. He was also using a lot of drugs. He was a gifted artists (painting and drawing) and also a poet I believe. A really gifted and sensitve person. If he was alive, or from wherever he is today, he would be immensely proud of his daughter Frances who appears to have inherited some of his creative talents and I think she's a lovely soul too.

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shame...so much shame. hahahahaha!!! ''i'm right, you're wrong...SHUT UP!"


you know something...i think shame makes the world go around. it's the most interesting dynamic on this forum as far as i'm concerned. and i have a funny feeling this place is fairly representitive of the 'real' world. i've been noticing especially a few of the more prominent posters who resort (shamefully )to shaming on a regular basis. can't say i much approve of that. but who am i to dictate what's right. people often arrive on this doorstep feeling ashamed. and perhaps it's on account of that unconscious proclamation that they are so viciously assaulted (and i do believe it to be JUST that...a vicious assault). obviously there's a place in this world for that particular kind of behaviour...but i'd be remiss if i weren't to point out how truly self-defeating it is to engage in such behaviour. not only toxic to the shamer...but a poisoning force that infiltrates the greater community. the energy resonates with such a sticky quality to it.


''i'm right, you're wrong...SHUT UP!'' poison. humanity has never KNOWN such a poison. forget disease. forget the impending nuclear holocaust. forget attrition. forget corruption. forget war. forget it all. this attitude trumps them all.


a tiny seed...planted at birth...and watered through childhood. it takes hold in adolescence...and becomes solidified in adulthood...poised to become the driving force behind yet another compelling performance of indoctrination. ''i'm right, you're wrong...SHUT UP!''


at a time when i feel a general disconnect from passion on any level...this is perhaps the one thing i am truly passionate about. there's so much projection...and polite 'flaming' that goes on here. and i know it's flaming...because when i've called a poster on it...i'm met by the fiercest resistance!! very telling. very telling indeed.


but that's me. tired of ''i'm right, you're wrong, shut up!'' a bit strange though...considering that it could've been my mantra a bit earlier in life. so...i get you, shamers. i do. i know this shaming business is masked in insecurity of the most unconscious variety. so shame away. shame until you feel you can shame no more. and then...well...shame some more!! shame until the very action breaks you. shame until the act of shaming instills in YOU a feeling of shame. and then...instead of projecting it outwards...let it fill your heart with it's poison. fill your heart with this sensation. ''I AM ASHAMED!'' and then rejoice.


you are free.


i aspire to free my own world of this insidious human creation.

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nothing cryptic. and perhaps...there are souls out there who understand this. for those who can't...or don't...i give you permission to TRY. but no pressure. i never would've understood.


okay...so...i received a message today...100 days. and along with the sentiments of that message...came a suggestion to share. so...here i am.


i've been here before. once upon a time...i was a non-smoker. and now...i'm a non-smoker again. i've been a non-smoker for 100days this time around. the other time...well...i'd say it was roughly 19 years...of this lifetime at least.


so...what's different? i'm not sure that's such an easy question to answer. like so many...i've started this journey before...only to have realized my own mortality...and succombed to the perils of smoking after a period of abstinence. what a disheartening experience. initially...there's that sensation of relief. but it's quickly replaced by that feeling of utter helplessness. for me...it was always that little voice in the back of my mind...reminding me of my own foolishness. i cried at night sometimes. maybe that sounds melodramatic...but this was my reality. there was NOTHING in my life that made me more miserable. and of course...that was a part of the perpetuation.


so...if there's one thing that i am immeasurably grateful for...it is the FREEDOM from that feeling. i can't say that my life has changed dramatically in other ways. it really hasn't. my wallet is a bit fatter i'm sure. my sense of smell is a little more acute. i breathe a bit easier up the three flights of stairs to my apartment. but these are trivial things to me. the thing that matters most...is that feeling of freedom. i don't have that shadow looming over me anymore. i'm not always thinking...''boy...i think i'm about ready to quit now.'' or constantly reinforcing the self-aggression (that can be the most painful experience of all) i'm already there. i don't know if that will make sense to anyone. but i consider it to be the single greatest benefit. THIS feeling...it's what keeps me going in any moment of weakness. and...i've had those moments of weakness. many ''tests'' along the way. but there was never a time where the 'desire' to slip was stronger than that feeling of freedom. NEVER.


so...for those who are struggling...think about what freedom means to you. what does it really mean. look your fear in the face...and question it. ask yourself what you have to gain from continuing down this path...or to feel a sense of depravation. there is nothing to miss. there is nothing to feel deprived of. the mind is a powerful tool...and for as long as you've been hooked...it's been working WITH your addiction...and against YOU. think about that. REALLY think about it. change the way you look at your desire. challenge everything that's felt 'right' about it. there is still a part of you that knows...and it's your time to get re-acquainted with that part. it's still there. and for so long it's been overshadowed by this stifling desire. but that desire is not YOU. YOU are not a slave. you've only bought into that belief. but that's all it is. it's a belief. and beliefs change. at first very subtlely...but then with increasing momentum.


REINFORCE the NEW belief. remind yourself of it daily. remind yourself of whatever it is that's started you on this journey. i have no doubt it will be different for everyone. latch onto whatever it is for you. focus on it. this is what you have to GAIN. it's not at all about loss. banish that from your patterns of thought. replace it with what you have to gain. say it out loud if you have to.


for me...in the beginning...it was ONE simple statement. I WANT TO FEEL GOOD. that's it. i want to feel good. nothing's changed for me...and yet...so much has changed. it's a difficult thing to articulate. but it's a good thing. a very good thing.


so...for anyone who is here...i'm glad to be a part of it. and...for anyone who is just starting out...know that you've already taken the step. you've done the hardest part. remind yourself every chance you get of what you've gained. embrace your freedom. and really...it doesn't matter what your 'addiction' is. it could be anything. anything that has lead you to feel that you are no longer in control. i'm sure there is not soul out there that cannot appreciate what THAT is like. it's a universal human truth. it's there to be denied or embraced. what will you choose?





100 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes and 32 seconds. 501. $1,212.00 3/18/2011 8:00:00 PM

Edited by 90_hour_sleep
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Hi sleepy,


Loved your post! It's similar to what we were talking about in another post about the fear of losing control! It's not just a health issue. The getting over an addiction is also wrapped up in the fear of breaking a promise to yourself. It must be overwhelming to have to deal with something that has a mental and physical hold over you.


I hope you continue to be successful in your quest for freedom!

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silver...i have a question for you....


do you really want to be free of your pain?


that's not some sort of cryptic criticism. it's really a serious question. ask yourself...maybe out loud...? before you brush the whole thing aside...and steadfastly conclude, ''of course i want to be free of my pain!!'' have you ever wondered what it involves? have you thought about what it means to be free of your pain?


i remember someone suggesting i do the same once upon a time. and i did. and strange things followed....




thanks for your thoughts


addiction is such a strange creature. you know...in alot of ways...if i really reflect on it...i'm actually grateful to have had the experience. it's put a big chunk of 'life' into perspective for me. maybe i've seen some glimpses of a bigger picture. it's definitely enabled in me the ability to feel truly compassionate for anyone who is or has been addicted...to ANYTHING. and that includes pain. it includes 'love' (although...in these terms...it's not love at all). it includes adrenaline. it includes busyness (perhaps the most destrucive addiction at all -- a compulsive need to always be doing doing doing...). addiction at it's core is deceptive. such subtle transitions. it works it's way into the little recesses of the mind...and eventually it stages a bit of a coup...and then...it simply exists as the would-be 'new world order'. the old ways don't really exist...because they've been carefully silenced...or convinced of a new way of being.


what a painful realization when it comes. to know that the addictive quality essentially mutinied your own better judgement!! what a clever, clever creature.


you're right. used to be very overwhelming.


the control thing feels to be related to shame. and that ties in with the fear of failure. seems to be why addiction is a self-perpetuating force. a cycle of sorts. the fear of losing control almost ceases to exist...because it's already been lost. it seems to become a process of justifying that to oneself...of rationalizing. anything to keep the desire satisfied. the mind is a powerful tool when it is focussed on a such a task. it allows itself to be brainwashed to minimize the discomfort of being controlled. quite something.


have you ever dealt with an addiction?


thank you for your kind sentiments. it's no longer a quest though. freedom came the day i stopped. perhaps some day i'll adequately capture the essence of that freedom here.



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Hi sleepy, I like how you challenge me to REALLY delve into my innermost thoughts and I like how you understand the quality of "darkness"


How can you appreciate the "lightness of being" if you don't recognize the darkness within us?


I think most people have their addictions; maybe not the recognizable ones - smoking, drinking, gambling, eating etc - but subtle little addictions that you can sometimes use to achieve your goals.


My addiction at the moment is numbers; watching them climb on the treadmill; watching them fall on the scales. Measuring food, measuring calories, measuring waistlines.


I walk on the treadmill and I watch the numbers and I can go into a trance or I can start thinking about time and how each second will never come back. And then I drive back home and my brain is floating; it feels like I've had a couple of glasses of wine. I go to the gym every day....is that an addiction? I like feeling stronger....is that because I feel vulnerable? I wasn't always like this....I was always the stay-at-home bookworm who loved to paint!


Some people might call it a mid-life crisis, I think of it as a rebirth. I'm finally free of the shackles of youth! People no longer have expectations of me, my children have grown up and I am not judged by the way I look. I find it incredibly freeing.


You might ask me why I am putting in the effort at the gym if I'm not being judged? Well for health reasons of course....but mainly because I'm keeping the promise I was always making to myself, (and unable to keep!) when I was younger, to lose the weight and keep it off. The fact that I have succeeded to do this for a few years gives me a sense of contentment.


Maybe one day I'll paint again. The reason I stopped, I will write about in my journal one day. Painting can be an addiction as well and I blame my obsessiveness as the cause of my son's accident....

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''i think...when one has been angry for a very long time, one gets used to it. and it becomes comfortable, like...old leather. and finally...becomes so familiar that one can't ever remember feeling any other way...''




Here, here.


I was thinking about this.. combined with "What does it mean to be free of pain?"


It's a thought that personally scares me. Being defined by your anger and pain for so long, let it go, what is left? Afraid to find nothing but a shell of a person. Old leather, yep. To let go of your pain is to(1 step) - Let go of the victim mentality. Let's be real about this, how many of us are horrified by that? Imagine being responsible for everything that you say and do(which, well - WE ARE! just many in denial about it). To let go of pain is to own that - And to accept that you brought upon plenty of pain on yourself. But I think our admittances(is that a word?) about such truths should be primarily a private event. Too many vultures.


Waaaait...That brings me to the shaming bit. How much do we see people who jump around like a giddy kid on Christmas when we have the chance to say "I told you so! You did it to YOURSELF!". What joy to rub it in. What bliss to smush the proverbial pie in someone's face. Ah, the ways we humans get ourselves off. Lovely.


I don't really know what I'm saying at the moment. It's one of those things that makes sense in my head, only, and this is only a futile attempt to transfer thoughts = words.

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Hi 90,

I'm genuinely seriously thinking about your question. At the end of my relationship with my ex ex, I know I definitely did, and I promised myself I would do everything I could to make sure I never let him back into my life, and that I would move on to a much better life. We had many breakups over the years. Well, I was true to that promise, and despite him coming back, I never took him back, and actually I never wanted him back after that point because the bad by far outweighed the good.


My most recent relationship does seem very different to that relationship with my ex ex. To start with, we had never had any break or breakup from each other. There was a lot more kindness in that relationshp as well as genuine fun, and a very good physical relationship for the most part. I think that with my most recent relationship, that as well as letting go of pain, it feels like there would be letting go of good things too that I had with him. For me, there was definitely more good than bad. I, as well as other people, including my son, who loved this man to bits, believe that the main reason for his sadness and breakup with me was motivated by other major things in his life, nothing to do with me, but one of those things by his own admission has broken his heart, the other has caused him humiliation. It was a completely different type of relationship and breakup. If there is a way to give up the pain without letting go of the possibility that we will ever get back together, please let me know. BTW, I'm not feeling that same level of pain today. Thanks.

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as always...appreciate your feedback, elcie.


time!!!!!! you do this too? i'm encouraged...and happy about that.


i know you weren't asking for my opinion as such...but...i think your situation can be described more as focussed intent...as opposed to addiction. you enjoy the feeling of FEELING GOOD. and what's not to feel good about? your ''addiction'' in this case is actually GIVING you something. a naturally induced chemical high!!!! yah!! your addiction makes way more sense than mine ever did! lol. you get something out of yours (or...what we're choosing to refer to as a potential addicion).


of course...maybe you would describe yourself as an adrenaline junkie? ha! not sure 'gym addicts' typically fit that bill. but it's really just a different degree of the same thing...isn't it?


maybe where it really differentiates is with control...our old friend control. perhaps that's the defining feature that really sets addiction apart from other detrimental behaviours? i've engaged in my fair share of destructive behaviour...but in the majority of those instances i wasn't noticably 'out of control'. even after reflection. because -- course -- there is a certain element of denial (albeit unconscious denial) associtated with addiction. back to the perpetuation.


ha. but i think that kind of steps the bounds a bit. i'm happily neurotic...but to obsess about something that may or may not be...and offer explanations for it...i dunno. i haven't solved that internal riddle yet. bottom line...sounds like this is good for you. it doesn't sound like it's having an adverse effect AT ALL!! more addiction criteria not met. i'm beginning to see a trend.


contentment is a nice feeling. glad it's been rewarding for you.


and...looking forward to possibly hearing this story some day. sounds like a tale for the bubbles of suburbia.

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any idea who uttered that quote? bonus points if you do!! (and if you google it...I'LL KNOW! i'm watching you...)


what if the victim mentality isn't but a mere facet of one's consciouness. what if it becomes the ENTIRE consciousness (and by that...i mean the part that one is consciously aware of ) it's a mentality...but it is also one's identity (and for some people...it's the only identity they've come to know). it's the filter through which one sees himself...and the world he occupies. it shades his perception of all things. it molds and shapes his reality. it becomes his existence.


i've wondered...what would a mother tell me if i asked her to give up her identity as a mother? what kind of reaction would that inspire? or...what about an athlete who's poured his very soul into his craft...what would he say if i asked him to give that part of his life up? and what of the career-minded...those intent upon climbing the ladder? what of wives, and husbands...daugthers, and sons...brothers, and sisters...people of faith, and people of no faith? what of those who identify strongly with any role?


what's the difference?


just let it go?


horrifying? as in...terrifying?


and if one should let go of all one knows...then what? i think it's a beautiful question. mostly because it doesn't just inspire fear...it IS fear. imagine letting go of all the hand-holds. imagine losing the ground you stand on. imagine seeing the world without the filter of a role. would that not be overwhelming? to step out of one's shelter of tangibles and knowns into a world of uncertainty and limitless potential?


blarg. now it's me who doesn't know what he's saying.


i get part of your post minty. i'm not following the last bit of your first bit (?). i know you're not really old leather. but maybe you're saying that at some point you have to live up to your own contribution to your leatheriness? and when you can do that...you can own your own pain...really feel it...and really let it go? accountability...for yourself? i guess that would be the idea behind being a victim. it's a constant projection away from ''me''. always concluding that the accountability is elsewhere.


oh...and well done with the shaming bit. is there some proverbial pie on my face?


sounds like we're feeling some similar energy maybe.

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Hi sleepy, .... it sounds as if you're in a good place at the moment! Such moments are to be cherished...


...by the way, you are right; "focussed intent" is a better way to describe what I called my little addictions. I always feel as if they could very well turn into addictions if I lost control. This is true of my whole life. I know my father was always fearful that I could be addicted to something...maybe something he observed about me when I was growing up.


He was always warning me about my alcohol intake, and more recently, before he died, he expressed concern that I was starting to use the slot machines whilst waiting to drive my daughter home from her work. I fully admit that I can feel the lure of addiction when I am engaged in some of these activities. It's sort of like standing on a precipice and feeling myself drawn towards the abyss. But something makes me draw back, sometimes almost with regret, if that makes sense. My father's voice in my head is stronger, though.


I have a very faint sense of what you could be going through, maybe enough to empathize, but I am thankful that I have never been in that dark place.

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Sorry to interrupt, but may I join in the discussion? I understand what you mean by physically drawn in, it is the feeling of a weak black hole, luring in the curious to never see the light of their folly until it is time to depart in it's activity, awaiting another go. I have thankfully only been addicted to the little things, savoring the soft fruit of an apple. My only regret was to not share my time with others as I used it on the apple. The least I could have done was share my joy of it with another.

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well...i'm sure you've been in a position where you felt to be going down a road that you'd rather not be going down. remember that feeling? probably anxious...maybe afraid. it is that feeling of being out of control. but it's more than that. it's when there's no choice involved (that's the perception anyway). you can indulge...and feel the draw to indulge more...but you have that choice to step away. but there are those moments in life where there is no choice. you're already on the path. so you live with the anxiety...or you push it away. but the situation doesn't change.


i think you probably know the feeling well. now...imagine going back and repeating it...over and over...with little or no expectation of relief. i think life is like this in a way...but it's more balanced with the 'good' things and the 'bad' things (if we're capable of seeing both, that is).


i like how you've put it!! being drawn into the abyss! feeling drawn in...and that not-so-subtle feeling of disappointment at forced abstinence (because it does feel forced). it almost feels unnatural sometimes. like...what could the harm be in just a bit more. is it actually your father's voice you hear...or is it yours, expressing his sentiments?

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Sorry to interrupt, but may I join in the discussion? I understand what you mean by physically drawn in, it is the feeling of a weak black hole, luring in the curious to never see the light of their folly until it is time to depart in it's activity, awaiting another go. I have thankfully only been addicted to the little things, savoring the soft fruit of an apple. My only regret was to not share my time with others as I used it on the apple. The least I could have done was share my joy of it with another.


hey happy!


i like your analogy. a black hole.


and you're right about curiosity i think. that's a big part of the draw. it's a bit like a gravitational vortex. the closer you get...the stronger the pull. and at some point...you feel that your curiosity has been satisfied...but it's too late. you've already been swallowed up. you know?


isn't that the nature of life though? we can't just avoid all of life's vertexes (lol...if that's the right plural). pleasant and unpleasant. does one take precedent over the other? i think the nature of addiction speaks VOLUMES in this case. an unconscious pursuit of only pleasure. aversion to all things unpleasant. i think it's a dangerous way to live. and not dangerous as in 'bad'...but dangerous as in it has a way of lulling one to sleep. which is great if one would prefer to be asleep. show me the man that would consciously prefer sleep though.


i'm assuming your apples are figurative? something on your mind?

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