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I read so many threads on this forum along the lines of: "What do you ladies think of xxxx?" (I guess the same could be said for women, replace gender as necessary because this is not a gender specific thing, but I am lazy and a product of a male dominated society so I'll be speaking from the perspective of my own gender. Sue me.) Replace x with some matter of facial hair, hairstyle, clothing style, cologne. And who asks these questions? Who is willing to let others dictate these things? Unsuccessful people. Because if you were a hit you wouldn't need to ask these questions, would you? Obvious stuff. These are people who are struggling with their gender of choice and are looking for anything to give them a leg up. But your J-Crew, 70 dollar salon cut, clean shaven face, and Polo Black still cling to the body of an individual who can't seem to get what they want.


"What is wrong with me?" "Is there someone out there for me?" "Will some force outside of myself reward all this effort with someone who could love me?" Unless you are fortunate, the answer is no. Some of us happen to be in the right place at the right time. Others are genetically blessed enough that place and time mean much less. However, some are too shy. Too passive. That's not all of us (and by us I mean "those who struggle," I belong here too). I can command a room. My personality is big. Anxiety is nonexistent. Shyness is not an issue. I can get your attention and I can keep it. But I can't do the one thing that is very important in all of this, and that's make someone want me/like me in that way. I'm no looker, no lover, no ladies man, no savant.


Like everyone who faces this issue, I was depressed at this realization. I wanted to wallow in misery with people who felt the same. I took pathetic pleasure in gender wars initially. But it tires fast, and no pseudo jabs or justice or wars over "who is more forgiving in the looks department?" etc. etc. fixes your problem. In the end you are alone and slowly descending into dark places once you finally learn that you are to blame.


Some people will do what they can to improve their results. They work, work, work...lose 10 pounds, 15 pounds, new clothes, new whatever only to find that it's still not enough. See, I'm not overweight. I've never been overweight a day in my life. I'm 6 feet tall. I'm in college. I'm going to law school. Failure in this area isn't always an indication that you're a freak, a loser, or disfigured. I am none of these things, and you aren't either. I've learned that all the progress I've made means absolutely nothing when it comes to attraction.


So I learned the next best thing. If you can't get the object of your desire, you must kill the desire itself.


Put your search into perspective. You are jumping through hoops for a gender that looks at you and does not want or respect you. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been made fun of or been called ugly to my face. I'd have to be an idiot to be ridiculed by women only to jump through more hoops and make more efforts. Would you go back to the same investor time and time again if every time you gave them money they ripped you off? Even more embarrassing, would you approach that investor with the knowledge that you both are fully aware the investor has ripped you off and beg for his attention to your finances once again? No. You have pride. You are not a whipping boy or a beaten dog crawling back to its master. If you aren't going to receive respect from someone, why would you want them? Why long for them? That should piss you off. That should EMBARRASS you.


You need to also understand that what you're picturing (the ideal relationship) is something you might not have even if you entered into one. If the gender of your choice views you as subpar, they will treat you as subpar. Bank on it. They might "give you a try" only to enjoy how little they have to put in and how much they can get from you. If they know of your troubles, know that a relationship or someone that says "I love you" doesn't come around for you very often, they know you'll cling to this relationship like no tomorrow. They will exploit this. They know you'll put up with garbage. There's no equal partnership here. Just one person with options and one person who doesn't want to see the other leave.


You can fulfill your sexual needs outside of all this. You have the internet, you have money, you have a car, and you can program your GPS to get you to Nevada should you want to. I saw someone talk about castration in a thread -- that'd be extreme. I don't recommend that, lol. Let's just say my needs are met.


This shift away from others will place the emphasis back on you. Chase your ambitions. Do well in college. Advance in your workplace. Pursue your hobbies. People freeze themselves in complacency when they dwell on the things they want that they can't seem to attain. It's a complete waste of time. Why focus on everything you don't have and comfort yourself with cliches when you can pursue attainable, available, and fulfilling alternatives around you that make life worth living? Relationships and marriage is not some magic pill. It won't make your life better if it sucks now. It will only amplify your problems. If you think your self esteem is low right now, wait until your gf wants to go clubbing with her friends without you. You think your body is crap right now? Wait until you're stripping naked for someone you find hot as Hell when you're not sure how they'll respond to you.


You can end up checking your balls at the door, being a puppy that jumps, barks, and craps on command, and totally unhappy in a relationship.


Take pride in yourself. Jump through hoops for no one. Desperation should embarrass you. Pairing with someone who is settling should embarrass you. Dictating your entire decision making based on the opinion of strange women should embarrass you because at the end of the day you could end up being the Kevin James Ken doll that everyone dresses up and drops as quickly.


Do not lament the fact that you're disrespected and insulted. Get angry. Do not learn how to appease women who don't find you worthy of your time. They are not worth it. Do not whine about the preferences that many women have. You can't change them. If you're reading this, their preferences probably aren't a list of the qualities you possess. Oh well. Life isn't fair, but don't let the frustration make you desperate and turn you into a whiny, grovelling idiot.


Learn to strive for more. Hell, you might even find it's easier to talk with women if that's your problem. If you're not results oriented there's no pressure. If you aren't entering into it with the mindset of "How can I impress her (aka it's time to get out the hoops again)?" then maybe you can be yourself and get lucky. Who knows? But stop asking people to dictate who you should be. Stop making every decision revolve around making a positive impression with women. They will sense it, and it won't help you.


If you can manage this, women (or men, whatever) will no longer be able to use their beauty as a tool to manipulate you. You will be totally unfazed by beautiful women. You will look at them like paintings. Yeah, looks nice, so what? No sweaty palms, no envisioning her bearing your children and talking to your parents within 10 seconds of meeting her, no shaky voice. She can address you and you won't be nervous. Why? Because every tool she has you've minimized via routine in your mind. You don't need her for sex. You don't NEED a relationship. The desperation is gone.


For once in your life you'd look at her and feel exactly as she does when she looks at you. "I don't need that person."

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While I've never been called ugly to my face (except over the internet, which doesn't count), I've read the insinuations behind a girl's choice to reject me. Obviously, I didn't fit her standards. This has hurt, and made me not want to ask out women, because I hate the idea of making her uncomfortable and make her flounder for an excuse (I have a boyfriend/I'm not attracted to you/I'm gay/I'm not looking to date right now/etc etc.)


While the fact that this does anger me exists, I cannot hate women, because I in general love them. I respect women a lot more than men, who I sometimes find revolting, and certainly can't understand why women would find them attractive. Hell, I don't understand why ALL women aren't lesbians; women obviously have the finer form, and guys' bodies do nothing for me (including my own.)


That being said, I have no issue in just staying friends with a girl. The problem is when I start to feel something more, and then there's that question of having her flounder for an excuse ("You're nice, LightbulbSun, BUT...") It's that BUT that always stands out to me; obviously I'm doing something wrong. And even though the fact that I can't recognize what I'm doing wrong makes me more insecure, that insecurity feeds on itself and makes the girl want to be around me less. A self defeating prophecy, if I ever saw one.


It also doesn't help that I'm a man with a high sex drive. I'm also curious, and have a great imagination (that comes from writing stories, poems, and songs, ever since I was able to write my own name.) It KILLS ME that I can't imagine what sex feels like, since I've never felt it. I can imagine it, imagine what it feels like to stick my penis into a vagina (to get a bit explicit); however, outside of getting a girlfriend or * * * * buddy, or hiring a prostitute, that will never happen.


I'm currently wearing boxers and nothing else. I looked at my body in the mirror, and I don't look as fat as I feel. I imagine that a lot of the posts that I make about my body image come from Body Dismorphic Disorder. Sometimes I can look in the mirror, and I see a sexy man. Sometimes, on the other hand, I look in the mirror and I see a monster, with distorted features. As a result, I hate fluorescent lights and mirrors in that light, because even though people tell me I'm imagining what I'm seeing, that doesn't change the perception of what I'm seeing.


I could get angry and become an angry outcast, with no friends or a girlfriend. I could fight back at the world. However, what good does that do? You can't fight hate with hate, you fight it with love, and love conquers all. Yes, sometimes it might not seem that way, but love really does change the world, and I can't stop loving because nobody feels love towards me (outside of friends and family.)


Plenty of people find love in their later years. Some never find it at all. However, it doesn't make them bad people. Everyone has different experiences, and even though I get frustrated at my experiences sometimes and rant sometimes, I'm not always this negative. I get frustrated too; I'm human, and I bleed.


So, in general, Tyler I don't think you should give up. I've seen your picture, and you're more attractive than me, and I've had girls interested in me before, so that's saying something. It's only too late when you're nothing but dust in the wind.

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That may be easy for you to say, Protest. I admire your post and the many philosophical points that you touched on. This is one of the main reasons I cannot pull myself away from this site; there are so many different ideas, perspectives and it's interesting to hear how others think - the thoughts that run through their minds on each thread or post. I feel like we are all young scholars; delicately piecing bits of life into a painting - analyzing it from top to bottom, wondering where we stand in a world. This site has brought some great minds together to help answer some of those questions.


We need people, Protest, as much as we'd like to pull the plug on our overly anxious ambition to connect on a spiritual & intimate level with others. As humans we're wired to build relationships and create life. That is the purpose of our existence. When I say build relationships I don't mean building up the courage to date Jane Doe next door. I'm talking about socializing ourselves throughout our childhood and adulthood years. We are a people who need intimacy, attention and to feel loved. It'd be impossible to suddenly stop caring. As twisted up as most of are, we're not as care-free or spiritless to stop caring. So, what should we do?? We don't quit, we don't get too mad, we just get smarter through the years hopefully and allow our experiences to guide us to a better plateau.

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Ah. It's been too long since we had one of those patented PTH How-To articles. Lol.


This is a really relatively insignificant point, but I just need to take exception with something you said in your first paragraph, echoed in a few other places. I don't think that just because someone asks, "What do you think of xyz?", that it necessarily means they are letting someone "dictate" to them what they should be. Yeah, given, about 90% of the time there's a misdirected effort at trying to get someone else to answer questions that really a crowd of impersonal strangers with varying tastes can't and shouldn't be in the position of determining. I think a lot of the time, it's just to gauge a reaction, along these lines. Which is only as useless as the poster makes the remarks absolute as gospel.


But the other 10% of the time, I think people are just curious and open to suggestions. Like for a while, I've considered a thread at some point about whether guys like scents and perfumes on women, or prefer not. I've seen similar threads about makeup. These are things we can experiment with and change up, and sometimes it's nice to know the things you don't get told on a day-to-day basis. Like I don't poll my male friends who talk to me and smell some fragrance on me, and they don't en masse seem to volunteer the opinion that they prefer a woman who doesn't wear fragrances, or does. If they like what I'm wearing, they may say something (though that's rare -- women comment more, I've found, leaving this a mystery regarding men, which is why I'd post on it), but that doesn't tell me if overall, it's enjoyed by a large segment of the population. So that's mildly interesting to me, even though it's not going to shift my behaviors heavily in one direction or another. It's just interesting info to have as incidental considerations go. I think the same goes for people asking about a hairstyle or what flatters their figure, etc. Taste will ALWAYS be a very individual matter, and for the most part, I think such questions leave you with the population you face in real life who put all the pieces of the puzzle that you are together, not just pieces of you in a test tube here. But sometimes it's just sort of a "trial balloon" thing and not meant to be holy writ.


I think the real problem with threads along these lines are the ones that deal with parts of us physically that can't be changed -- having certain features. Aside from gaining or losing weight, or plastic surgery, there really is nothing we can do to change our essential physical build and structure, and those are the most dead-end and pathos-filled threads, because they are essentially asking people to give them a thumbs-up or thumbs-down, sealing their "fate" as it were -- as if it were comforting to know just the extent to which they are doomed. The need is to know just exactly "where they stand", as if this was the Word.


I know this is an advice column type post, so I won't interfere too much, ha, except to suggest that a similar type of thinking on those threads may be going into trying to give up, to "stop caring." Rather than live in the ambiguity of "maybe" and the future's unpredictability, it's almost better to seal your fate here and now to get an "answer", to get it all over with and determined, so you can line things up all nicely and neatly and figure out where you belong in the scheme of things. Much less fear that way. Why? Because if you allow yourself to hope or even just leave the door open...you allow yourself to fear that the hope may not come true.


In which case, you are allowing fear to dictate to you.


If you're fearful, you can't stand ambiguity. If you're strong and fearless, you can.


So, it's not much different from those threads trying to call the game by asking, "How bad is it that my ____ looks this way? Could someone like me with this?" It's almost easier to hear "no" than "perhaps someone will." Because who wants to deal with that kind of open-ended possibility? Too much on the line. You gotta let life play out. You gotta wait. You gotta acknowledge that the way things are right now isn't a choice, and that's a helpless feeling. So you're trying to impose a choice on the matter. Even though it's completely artificial to speculate about things months or years down the line.


I do think in your case, it's good that right now you're not seeking anyone and just working on your goals. So don't get me wrong. I'm just proposing that you can put things on the back burner without throwing out the pot. Or blowing up the entire stove, more like.


My approach to this is to adopt what you said about not being desperate -- I believe in not being desperate. Its' a good stand to take, no matter what your situation, or how "far gone" you think it is. But there's an opposite extreme for every extreme that's just as unbalanced. Entertain the idea of the middle ground, where you are neither giving up hope nor hoping. Where you have equanimity. Why not live with the question mark? You don't have to dwell on the question, but nor do you have to doggedly work at annihilating it. Your antidote is sometimes more potent if it's less potent.


Reacting to life by trying to cross bridges before you even reach them (which is ALL of the future), whether you're making a thread about it on ENA (with a stream of unmet individuals you haven't met yet in real life yet to meet), or you're prophetically putting the finishing touches on the last page of your novel (which is a volume of blank pages) is as foolish as the things you're calling foolish in your OP.


And there is one inconsistency I see here:


Just one person with options and one person who doesn't want to see the other leave.


Pairing with someone who is settling should embarrass you.


Why would someone with options settle?


Why would someone choose to love you and stay with you and "settle" for you if they had their pick of other people?


Think about it.

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Always loved PtH's posts and this is certainly no exception! Very good read and from being part of that unlucky crowd I am reminded exactly of what I felt and can agree with every bit of it - except for the bit about killing the desire. Not caring, yes, but I've tried killing the desire before and it just doesn't work.


Like LBS I'm just too human, too horny and at least for me, fighting what is a natural desire was just too draining for me. Instead I tend to focus my efforts now on the real stuff - my big realisation moment basically the condemnation/disbelief of all those "sayings" about finding love. Yes it broke my spirit for a while - a very long while infact - but also made me take more responsibility to change what I could, but concede even that might not be enough, but at least I'm awake to the world.

I have a few friends, very much single friends, who still believe they'll get their girl without ever asking them out, without ever being social, without ever dressing well, etc. I look at them, get reminded of how I used to be, and am thankful I am not so blind anymore.

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Thanks for the comments at the end, there. Unfortunately, the people around me (I guess I don't either) don't share those sentiments, but it is encouraging anyways. I don't think anyone should hate women. I would not want you or anyone else to poison yourself the way I have with that emotion, but the alternatives (for me) are less appealing. I am not as, I don't even know what word to use here...bad off? disadvantaged? as some people on this site simply because I have had one positive experience in my life with a woman. I'm not a virgin. I know what sexual exploration, sensation, pleasure, and what have you feels like. I think it would probably be more difficult on me if I did not because the mystery of it all would compound everything else, but having been there and done that I don't really care if it happens again.


I guess the difference between you and I is that in general, I do not love or respect women. It's not BECAUSE they are women, it's just that women in general tend to respond to me in a certain way, and that response is something I neither respect or love. Over the years I've noticed that there is an ethereal quality to "beautiful people...," an x factor that sort of enhances all their other traits. With women, this seems to work the other way around as well. Who and what I am (unattractive) seems to diminish my other qualities as well...like, if I was attractive I'd be the most amazingly complete guy ever, but since I'm not I lack something. That something can be quantified a 100 different ways but in the end it all comes back to attraction. I can't blame women for thinking that way because men think that way as well. I can't blame people for not finding me attractive...that would be ridiculous. But if I am repulsive to a gender I am attracted to, and that same gender disrespects me more often than not because of things I have no control over...yeah, killing the desire seems like an amazing idea. It's not fantastical or even very hard to do if you commit to it either. I can flashback to specific experiences where I was berated and in seconds time I want nothing to do with them. It doesn't take much if you have a pool of negative experiences to draw from.


I can't rewire my brain, but I can see how pathetic I must look to keep putting my foot in the door when all they want to do is slam it shut on me.


You don't even need to be an outcast. I am a very social person. I talk with women all the time. The more immature/attractive ones at times are infuriated that someone as low on the totem pole as me is completely uninterested in them or vulnerable to their looks. Buy your own drink, pay for your own food, thanks. They can't walk all over me even though they so badly want to. That's the stuff I no longer have to suffer through, now. No one disrespects me because they know I am not a doormat.




Not people. Not guys. But I don't think women are "out to get me" either. I don't think they're scheming or plotting or anything like that. That's way too much work for someone as insignificant as myself (in the scope of things). What I am saying is that for the most part, as long as our paths don't cross, women and me operate indifferently. When they DO turn their attention towards me, it's not to make small talk, pay me a compliment, or shoot the breeze. It's either indifference or derogatory. Indifference is fine. I have no problem with that. But I am not about to be disrespected. And these women are nothing like me. I do not magnify their personality based on how attractive they are. I don't think a woman is fun to be around just because she's good looking. How does she treat people and how does she treat me? Is she funny? Is she intelligent? Those scores don't inflate with beauty. That's not a trait I've seen in women in person yet.






It is very difficult. Impossible for almost everyone. I still do have desires to connect with people, which is why I have close friends. I never thought I'd be able to control my sex drive and lower it tremendously. I never thought I'd be able to live and operate around women without developing crushes and a desire to draw closer to them. These are things I can do now. Intimacy...well, that comes in many forms. Physical intimacy is not something I need. I don't like to be touched, hugged, or cuddled to begin with. Emotional intimacy is something I feel I can achieve through close friendships. I do need people. I just don't need women.


And yes, this is one of the most interesting sites on the internet.


Dr. Styles: Yes, I suppose the consolation prize for all of this is that you are no longer naive. No longer a chump. No longer an individual whose head is so far up his respective behind that he thinks the universe will bring his girl to him on a silver platter. You know this is not how it works. I still get horny...like I said, there are some things that are just so biologically wired into us that you can't fight them. It's just that I don't need anyone to "take care of me" so to speak. I got that on lockdown, and that's all I need.


Exile101: Thanks.




"Why would someone with options settle?"


This is an easy one. I get to draw on real life evidence for this one. A family friend of ours is an accountant. He is relatively successful and tremendously overweight. His wife is pretty good looking, even moreso by the comparison. This guy has been in and out of my house since I was 7, not living with us, just hanging out with my family, playing cards, going to bars, whatever. When he married this woman, many things changed. All of a sudden she was in charge of the finances even though she did not work. Before he could come over or go out, he needed permission. She totally controlled him. She could have married someone more within whatever league she felt she was in, but such a relationship would have had to be an equal partnership. There was nothing equal about this. He worked, she enjoyed his money, and she told him what to do. It's just as much his fault for letting this happen, but the incentives for her are many. She isn't obligated to have sex with him. He isn't likely to complain. I think there are quite a few perks for his wife in this arrangement that make it worth it, so it's easy to see why someone would do this.

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PTH, I'm constantly amazed and delighted by your ability to communicate. Your career as a judicator is going to be very successful, I wager. That said, it stupifies me that anyone, much less someone so articulate, sensitive and yes, attractive! would be in this sort of position. It just seems to go in the face of all logic.

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I think I've always "cared"; not in a way that has made me desperate towards girls I'm attracted to, but I've just... I think I've always just been one of those "hopeless romantic" types, and it's been made increasingly difficult and frustrating, in that I've never even really so much as flirted with a girl. It's hit me really hard the last few years, because it seems like so many of the people in my life basically have what I've been looking for; a nice, fun, caring "romantic" relationship.


It really bugs me that it's such a hard concept for me. I mean, I know I have issues, and I know I'm far from "attractive", but I don't really think I'm that bad of a person. It's not like I'm some disgusting slob that doesn't take care of himself, with a dead end future, etc. Yet, most girls generally have no interest in me, and the rest basically put me right in the "friend zone" immediately.


Every year, I've been becoming more and more disappointed with it. Hell, by the end of this year, I'll be 22, and I'll still never have even been on a proper "date". I've tried to "indulge" myself with hobbies and other distractions, but nothing has ever really made me "stop caring" fully. Sadly, I ended up doing the one thing that I REALLY hoped I would never ever in a million years do... I become bitter about it. Not outwardly, of course; I don't have any trouble putting on a nice happy face out in public, but inwardly, I think I've really become incredibly sour about dating, relationships, etc. At this point, I don't even think I WANT to experience any of that stuff anymore.

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For one thing I think your post was very outstanding. On the last weekend of may which was very recent I stopped caring.


I simply got frustrated and just had to "let it go" and thats how it should be. Decide to let it be, put to rest all of your other options and move on.


For me it was a very difficult thing because I had envisioned someday getting married but I cannot see that happening.


Decide and the results will fallow.

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Have you ever tried pursuing a woman who is average? one who doesn't use blatant sexuality or her looks to get a man? or if she's the type, use them to manipulate him?


I sympathize with what you say and can relate to a lot of it as well. In some ways I'm also in the process of caring less and less what men, and people in general think of me. I refuse to bow down to what people want and can make it perfectly well by myself.


But again with the generalizing that is so prevalent on this site...


Often when a woman doesn't have looks and cant use them to bait men, she has to rely on other assets, like personality, humor or common interests, to attract a mate. I'm not saying that all beautiful girls are mean with no personality, or that all non beautiful girls are perfect. But as you know, many girls who are desired by lots of men and KNOW they're beautiful will have a higher tendency to abuse that power.


I think a lot of the problems that many guys have here is that they pursue 10's, then get bitter because of how they've been treated, resulting in branding all women as b*****s. Why not open your eyes and go after a girl who is a 5 or a 6 instead?


Go after a woman with less beauty, or not even less beauty, but less conventional beauty. I really believe that a lot of the problems men face is because they're chasing after the wrong girl. Women do it too. We might as well face the facts, 90% of the time hotties date hotties, averages date averages, and uglies date uglies. Its just the way it is. But I know for a fact that there are plenty of average girls out there who are wonderful people to be with, yet many men dont give them the time of day because they are busy chasing the unattainable, and as a result, becoming disillusioned with the entire female gender.


Other than that though, a very well put post.

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Brother, PTH, I appreciate the passion and thoughtfulness of your ideas in regard to the theme of this thread, and I agree in many respects. May I ask, have you ever been in an intimate relationship with a woman? Or are you simply contributing to the masses, a cynical view of women based on your complete lack of success?


I just want to know if you have ever experienced love from a lady, have ever experienced sex, et cetera, so I can have a better idea of where you are coming from.

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Brother, PTH, I appreciate the passion and thoughtfulness of your ideas in regard to the theme of this thread, and I agree in many respects. May I ask, have you ever been in an intimate relationship with a woman? Or are you simply contributing to the masses, a cynical view of women based on your complete lack of success?


I just want to know if you have ever experienced love from a lady, have ever experienced sex, et cetera, so I can have a better idea of where you are coming from.


Easyguy, check out his response to me. He commented that he had a girlfriend and wasn't a virgin, but hadn't dated for several years.


Randomgirl, I think this is my problem. I tend to go after women much more attractive than myself. I guess it's hard, because I can't genuinely assess my own looks (I've been told that I'm everything from a 1 to a 10, based upon the girl in question.) So I don't know, upon seeing a girl, whether she is within my dating 'league', or whether I should just forget it and try asking out her shy friend who isn't as blessed with looks, but is nice.


I think I'll be more open to dating based upon personality from now on, though. I think part of this is my own issues, because I grew up crushing on beautiful women, and looking at celebrity women (like Avril Lavigne, Sarah Michelle Gellar, etc) as being the 'type' that I'll date. So if someone comes along who I'm just not feeling her looks, I tend to reject her.


I remember a few years ago, there was one girl in one of my classes who had an insane crush on me. She would flirt endlessly, and was always wanting to talk to me. However, I had a crush on her friend (who was an attractive blond), and she was chubby, so I rejected her. Years later, I wonder if maybe I should have given it a shot? (her blond friend rejected me, btw.)


On one hand, I want to believe that there's no such thing as dating leagues; however, on the other hand, people DO generally date other people in the same general attractiveness. The problem is I'm somewhere from a 4 to a 7, but I'm not sure where I fall on that scale (I had a general rating at Hot or Not of 8.)

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"Yes that's right isn't it randomgirl, if you're a guy with no success with women then you MUST be going for people out of your league"

... that's hardly the truth ofcourse.


I don't think many girls would "give me the time of day"! And what I get reading PtHs post is just more affirmation that sometimes, you just can't win. Doesn't matter what league the girl is in, no interest, no chance.

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Come on, dr_styles, it's not always that bleak. Yes, sometimes you have a run of bad luck, but then you have to change things up.


Like I've said before, I'm a social hermit. I've made a commitment to myself to get involved in my community. That involves the musical theater/performance arts group down the street, my community church, things at my college. Hell, just even sitting in a coffeehouse, not to meet people but to just enjoy a cup of coffee, can bring you closer to actually meeting women.


It's harder when you're shy, but it's not impossible. My cousin is the shyest guy I've ever known, yet he's married with a kid. Sometimes shyness can be endearing.


What you need to stop caring about is that you have no success, but be open to any success if it comes along. Basically keeping your options open while accepting that you can't really change the world, if it doesn't want to be changed.

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I don't know what league you guys are playing in but I'm not playing in any league.


Randomgirl has a good point to a lot of the men out there and that is they like to chase things that are well out of their reach. If they are a total slob they will try and date a girl who looks great in a swimsute. It shouldn't be that way!, I'm overweight and those types of girls on last on my list, I want a fullfigured girl because I think curves are sexy and I feel more compatiable with them than I would a smaller girl.


Believe it or not I've had smaller girls like that have crushes on me in the past, one is on her way to getting married to a guy in the Air force and she's still showing me signs of interest, I could have had her but I past her up. She was small and peteitie but after seeing her facebook photos yeah she's one of those sexy swimsute models with a hot body. Having a crush on me? Yeah she did!


I do not understand why she did, my only assumpsion is she wanted protection or feeling of protection.


My only problem is there isn't a large enough market for women out here at least good ones. Its really like searching through a salvage yard for a car that is running and functional to drive. Its really hard to meet a woman who's complete and ready with no kids or a boyfriend, its really hard to meet average girls out here who are 5's.


The current girl i fancy is a 7 on my scale. She's a very sexy woman in my opinion but thats not the main reason why I want her. Again its the I want to know more factor, she's so mysterous to me and really doesn't talk much which keeps me highly interested in her. I've talked with her a few times but she's got a lot of the things I want so far.


To me any girl is attainable because sex appeal only last so long. Sooner or later that sexyness and its going to boil down to other things about that person you like. Me I want to be with a girl and love her so much that even if god forbid she's in an accident I will stick by herside even if it means I will never have sex with her again.


I think people put waaaaay to much thought in the bedroom first than on the foundation itself.

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Thats because the Media is influenced by Porn.


I don't think that's true. I think the idea of sexuality has always been present in media. However, when we look back in time, we see society's relatively provincial idea of sexuality peeking in compared to today where sex is quite explicitly sold. In 30 years, people will back on our media now and think "My goodness, how utterly stifled and restrained."


It's all relative.

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For me, it's not so much an observation of a sexually-driven culture, but one where image alone is taken as a much higher regard of quality than the quality and depth of beauty that comes from a woman of outdoor beauty and inner content. Beauty is not quantifiable.

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I see how this is an example of what you're talking about. Makes sense.


I guess this scenario hadn't occurred to me right off because I don't see a woman in this situation as having "quite a few perks." Which I guess is a statement of how different people's (women's) values can be. I would rather be dangled from a telephone wire in a lightening storm that be in this kind of marriage.


Because why be in this arrangement when you can have a pet AND a hubby? This man is nothing more than a glorified pet. And if I want a loyal dog, who obeys orders so that things are in order, I can get one of those AND get a husband, so that I can actually desire him and get my physical and emotional intimacy needs met. Then I have the best of all worlds. I don't find it a "perk" to come home to someone who I feel repelled by and don't love, whatever other incentives you throw at me. What a barren life. Besides, if you're marrying for PERKS, it's done for to begin with. That's like eating icing and calling it a cake.


I suppose the one (of two) "perks" I can see in this is that the dude has money. I'm not sure why if she's good-looking, and has options, why she can't land a man with an equivalent salary, so she can have sex, a partner and also access to a bank account that she's looking for.


Which leads to the other "perk", and that would be power. As you said, if she chose someone else more in her "league", then it'd be a more equal partnership. So what this is, at root, is a need for power and subjugation in some way. It's way, way more than just a case of wanting a guy who is rich enough to support lavish "needs"; it's about someone who inherently has a deep desire to place someone in a subservient position, and likely this is a driving force in her psyche due to many conditions of a dysfunctional upbringing, which she is playing out and it so happens that his dynamic with her is playing out something of his upbringing, for HIM. So it's not so much that she's "settling for him", as that they both sought out conditions that looked familiar to them, magnetized to them, and are following those blueprints.


What this means is that he is also SETTLING. There are lots of men who would despise her as an "option", themselves. It's not so much a statement about him as a male specimen (though being grossly overweight is sure to hurt anyone's pool of options), as it is a statement about his expectations of women and relationships. There are many gloriously happy men and women married to people who are overweight, or who are both overweight. Also, often, people get married and their spouse puts on a lot of weight (male or female), and they don't suddenly go out and start looking for other options, they still love and stick with their partner. They respect eachother on a level, they don't treat one another like well-trained poodles.


I know a happily-married couple (very loving and respectful towards eachother) who is about a generation older than me, and she's very overweight, and I take it has been so for their whole married life (though she's dieting now and it's making a huge difference, and he's loving it.) Neither of them are what you'd consider "hotties", but he's of healthy, normal weight. When they were younger, I imagine he'd have physically not drawn too many women, but that'd be as much because he's kind of shy and geeky and scholarly, as that he's just not an Adonis. She's very robust and outgoing and actually a pretty hilarious, roll-on-the-floor-laughing person to be around, with a huge personality and a heart of gold. So I can see how they balance eachother in ways that can't simply be quantified down to "who is the hotter hottie?" and leagues and looks and separating out qualities. Relationships, when good, are an admixture of the best of the totality of each partner outweighing the "flaws" and imperfections of each.


Just as in the case of the guy and his wife who you're talking about, the dynamic is created not only by his looks and the dearth of options you're thinking that creates, but his whole attitude and set of expectations and needs about women and life. And she is determining her part in this by her corresponding expectations and needs. This being a dovetailing. So in their case, too, it's a whole greater than the sum of the parts, and in their case, their totality is being run by the admixture of the worst attributes of each to get to that result. Which means that basically, they "deserve" eachother.


So a man like that has other options -- he has just gravitated towards the option that is going to fit a deep level of familiarity, expectation and even need, if not satisfaction. His looks are only an accomplice in this. We can't conclude this is just a sad sack with no options -- we can conclude that this is a man who, given a few flaws (and not just physical), shot low, chose badly and resigned himself.


What this means for men who perceive themselves as "handicapped" is that whatever that handicap, real or merely imagined (and fortunately, for you, PTH, it's imagined, though that is of no consolation or validity to you for reasons I recognize), your enemy is not your "handicap" -- it's resignation to what you've bought into as your status quo (combined with not optimizing the catch that you are, to the extent that you can, psychologically, emotionally and physically). The fact is that you don't need "women to think you're attractive." You don't need to be able to say, "Women find me attractive" in this world, just as I don't need to be able to say, "Men find me attractive". You will be found attractive by the person who likes you and wants a real relationship. Not a sexless, lifelong series of business transactions between master and slave.


I would suggest against getting involved with people who have personality defects to this extent, be they below average, average, attractive, or drop dead gorgeous, no matter who you are and what your perceived (or real) handicaps. This is not a "how to stop caring about beautiful women who lord it over you" suggestion -- it's a "how to seek a healthy person/dynamic" suggestion.


And along those lines...about leagues. I wish I could rep randomgirl more. There's something to what she said, really. I don't particularly care for the word "league", as it suggests some hard line in the sand -- you are between 4-6, so you're on that corner. You're 1-3, you guys are down there. You're 7-10, you guys are all the way up there. I don't think it breaks down in such a clear-cut fashion, but it's not entirely untrue that people date on approximately their generally-perceived attractiveness level. The thing I think is worth pondering about randomgirl's post for you, PTH, is that I have observed that all the girls you're taking your cues almost exclusively from (and basing your mindset on) seem to be these "ethereal" women who have come to see their beauty as a real bargaining chip. It's because they've been told it all their lives, and sometimes they really don't have other equally compelling good traits, so they need to hang their hat on that. This is actually only a minority segment of the entire population of women, but if you are circulating in a minority, it's going to be YOUR majority.


This is not to say you have to deliberately "shoot low" or to consider yourself out of anyone's league; it's to say I've seen that all the girls you become attracted to ARE in fact 10's (or close to it) themselves, women you describe as your "physical ideal". A couple of them are nice people who are 10's, but for other reasons unavailable. And for that matter, the women you are appraising so happen to fall into very conventionally beautiful demographics. I think this is a function of your own point of reference of what's attractive in the social circles you are in (conventional as they are, in many ways), and it may be narrowing you down in your options in many ways. It's my impression that you are mingling with women for whom certain values (money, prestige, trend, fashion, looks of a certain kind) do not reflect your own entirely, even if there is some overlap. You are dealing with a population that brings some things you value with it, but also some attitudes that make for some very serious divides for you. And to the extent that you are immersed in this world, is the extent to which you believe this is all that's available. To the extent that you adopt the criteria of this world is the extent to which the part of you that doesn't adhere will be incredibly frustrated. So it's not so much a "looks league" issue -- it's a values league issue, imo.


When I interact with a guy I find captivating and interesting, and possibly dating material, I'm never trying to calculate what "number" he is, or what "number" I am in his eyes. So LBS, I wouldn't go down that road of trifling technicalities. Don't dice it down like this -- it'll drive you nuts. Keep your interactions very wide and open, meet many kinds of people, make your borders broad, by all means, stop using female celebrities or physical ideals as guides (yikes! that's a set-up for disappointment and unrealistic, failed dating prospects for anyone) and I think you'll find that your gut about someone will guide you moreso than some number on some scale. And I would advocate continuing to interact with women you aren't instantly physically magnetized to. So long as you aren't repulsed, there is a good chance of your attraction increasing. This is a phenomena I've experienced again and again and again, it's tried and true, gentleman. This is a vote against snap judgments and standard evaluations.


Which does come back to the whole thing about talking to women and befriending them, PTH. Getting back to you on that in pm. It would be good for your life as a whole, and it is good for your dating life (in a variety of ways, not the least of which being that your female platonic friends could become instrumental in ways, as confidentes), to cultivate friendships with women that you would consider "close" -- not just male friendships that fill this bill. This is unexplored terrain in your life, a whole aspect of relating that is absent, and it limits you interpersonally.


Though this in and of itself would require a kind of mindset overhaul........

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I have never in my life pursued a "10." I am surprised ToV mentioned this, knowing that the only ten I have ever showed her in my life was the one girl I knew that was jerking me around and leading me on. I, not wanting to go down that road, ended up having my gut instincts reaffirmed when she struck up a relationship with a dude more her type.


My ex girlfriend was not a ten. I don't appraise people like that. I am attracted to someone or I'm not, and what I can become attracted to is incredibly varied. There is only one thing that I can not bend on physically, and that's weight. It is impossible for me to become attracted to overweight women. I don't mean I only love washboard abs. 5-15 pounds...whatever. No big deal. But beyond that, it won't work. To me, this is not unreasonable because it is an expectation that I also meet.


I'm far from perfect. Perfection is not something I pursue. I never at any point in time thought I'd be next to a celeb look-a-like. I don't seek out tens. I also don't look through a room full of women and think "I'm gonna pick out one I'm not really into because that's what I think I should do."


Conventional, unconventional...doesn't matter to me. I just am attracted or I'm not. I feel like I've been pretty reasonable, and plan on making that point in response to ToV after this.




I have only been in one intimate relationship with a woman. Have I experienced love? She told me she loved me. I feel that I loved her. Obviously that's not the case now. Yes, I have experienced sex, but once again only with one woman...I am certainly no baller, player, or stud.

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@ToV (too long for quoting, lol):


The man in my scenario has no other options. The woman before his wife left him at the altar once she realized she couldn't go through with it. He is built like a grizzly bear and probably is as hairy and weighs as much as one. He's a good man, but as I said before, women have a hard time respecting men that they find supremely unattractive. They place themselves over him, obviously or subconsciously, and his romantic life has been a testament to that in various ways. Obviously, it's on him to lose the weight.



I have been called ugly by women I myself find physically repulsive. I've been labeled many things by women I am attracted to and women I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I have not been subjected to crap treatment just from ethereal or beautiful women.


If you think all the women I have been attracted to are 10's, you are operating under a different rating system than the one we are using around here. The girl in my dorm was the only ten. The religious girl dated a guy for 4 weeks and no other guy is remotely interested in her. A girl that thanks you for asking her out is probably not a 10 used to getting a lot of attention. I find her incredibly attractive, but I don't get what makes that seem like I have a pattern for conventional beauty. If having long hair and no physical deformities and no weight issues makes me a lover of the conventional, then I am, of course, guilty as charged. I don't know how to take this comment, though, as your tastes and mine are not very similar in general. That one emo looking picture of the guy you sent me that one time is a testament to that.


I do not hang out with rich people. My best friend is not rich, nor is he a party person, a clubber, or very attractive. My room mate next year is the closest person to having a similar amount of money that hangs around me regularly. My extended family are huge pains in the ass because of the snobbish attitudes that many possess, but my friends are by and large poor to middle class college students supporting themselves or living at home. Every girl I showed you aside from the one in my dorm is poor by poor standards. I told you this already, though, after you made this assumption and we had cleared that up. I am not sure what gave you the impression that my immediate social circle consisted of fashion divas or powerful people. You could be referring to many of the people that gave me crap in high school, and many of them had money as well and were jerks, but they were not my friends. They were not the only group contributing to how I felt about my looks. They were snobbish elitists and the women there certainly had their opinions about me, but these opinions were not inconsistent with the poorer, uglier girls or the poorer, prettier girls or the poorer, average girls I met at church (when I used to go) or elsewhere.


Many of my friends are religious if that's what you mean by conventional...not sure.


I would like to see what you and randomgirl are talking about when you use phrases like "unconventionally beautiful" or "unconventional." I have my definition for these words, but I want to see picture examples of what you mean for my benefit.


As for the friendship thing...yeah, that's valid. I still share the same opinion about the friend's first thing, but I really have no good reason to not have close female friends. There isn't one woman in my life that I talk to regularly, my mom included (lol). I have never had a female friend. They are acquaintances...women who enjoy my sense of humor and balls to the wall attitude and total lack of fear for confrontation and whatever else so they bring their friends and I bring my friends and we get together or go out. I talk with them, but never in depth about myself. I'm not trying to get laid, get a number, or make friends in these environments. I'm basically just having fun.


I guess I feel like I can't trust a woman to be a close friend. I don't feel that one would make a very good confident or "pillar" for me in my life. I am not sure what one could bring to my life or what I could bring to hers. I have never, ever been in a one-on-one situation with a girl that wasn't romantically charged in some way. I have never just chilled with a woman as a "friend." I have a bunch that I hang out with in groups, a bunch that I text and communicate with, but none that know me very well (and I don't know them very well either). I'm not even sure I could find or even create a close friendship with a woman because so many would assume I'm romantically interested and would try to show me that they're not interested by acting aloof. I have no idea how I'd even go about that. I have no idea how I could even create a close friendship with a woman in my life. I guess I've never seen the allure. I always felt like I could trust guys more. It's more comfortable for me when I don't feel physically evaluated.

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