Giving ultimatums

[abitbroken]

I'm just venting because I am mad at him. He needs to treat me better and I will not be his scapegoat again.

 

It is hard for us to sympathize with you that he is treating you badly, when you appear to be treating him badly, too. When you love someone, you don't talk about how much of a loser they are, even when you are "venting." Not once have I read you talk about where you need to improve or heal. It is just about how much he doesn't make or how he doesn't look and how he needs to change. It does take two to tango - but keep your eyes open - if he doesn't want to tango with you anymore, let him be. The only "bad treatment" i can see him doing is not being who you want him to be and not calling you as much as you like.

[newwave]

My mother said I was being harsh on him about giving ultimatums because he is going to counseling so he doesn't lose me. She said not to make him more confused. She also revealed a few things he told her, that he loved me. He sure has a funny way of showing that.

[annie24]

i'm honestly surprised you did this, because I know you contacted him a few weeks ago and I think he made it pretty clear he was not interested in a romantic relationship with you. I mean, at least, that was the bottom line I took away from your exchange with him. why keep beating a dead horse? his response will likely be the same.

 

furthermore, even if he did agree to a romantic relationship with you, i have a feeling he would go back to his flaky ways within a few weeks.

[newwave]

I have 3 years on you, and I'm not the least bit interested in dating someone who I would describe in the manner you've described him, with such contempt and disrespect. To his face, behind his back, not no-how would I ever talk about the man I want to be with like that. Slim as the pickins' are.

 

And I don't know why "never married" is so important to you. You're cutting out a lot of potentially good partners there. Some people are going for a step up when then get divorced. And some people who have never been married haven't been for a good reason.

 

Because I am opposed to divorce on moral issues, which I don't want to get into again.

[hexaemeron]

My mother said I was being harsh on him about giving ultimatums because he is going to counseling so he doesn't lose me. She said not to make him more confused. She also revealed a few things he told her, that he loved me. He sure has a funny way of showing that.

 

You know... reading this and your other threads, there's nothing ever... I don't know.. soft or friendly or empathetic about your posts. Never anything nice to say about this guy, either. What exactly are you bringing to the table if you're making ultimatums about what you deserve?

[abitbroken]

My mother said I was being harsh on him about giving ultimatums because he is going to counseling so he doesn't lose me. She said not to make him more confused. She also revealed a few things he told her, that he loved me. He sure has a funny way of showing that.

 

Yes. Mom is right this time. You probably cannot see ways he shows he loves you because you are so adamant on him doing what you want him to do. I will say that I tried to "fix myself" to keep my ex and it does not work. You can't make yourself into someone the other person wants you to be. Ditto in your case. He needs to go to counseling for HIMSELF and not to please you or try to change for you.

[Cadence44]

I'm noticing a whole lot of "I deserve" and "he needs to" phrases in relation to your talking about him. What's with the ordering him around and the entitlement you seem to have?

[abitbroken]

Because I am opposed to divorce on moral issues, which I don't want to get into again.

 

You don't have to. And its fine to not like divorce. I hate divorce. It stinks. NO ONE likes it. (heck, I didn't choose it. I tried counseling and everything else but my ex husband still walked out on me. it was the best thing that ever happened though because he was abusive.) But if you don't want it mentioned, don't mention your ultimatums about oral sex. It would seem that if you do not want to date or marry a divorced man and in other threads appear to want someone who was waiting for you to come along (you mentioned that in a perfect world he should also be catholic and that you would experience a lot of firsts together), then you cannot expect him to have tons of sexual experience to the point of extremely good oral sex techniques. Or if he does, he is not going to talk about it to a gal he just met or who is "screening" him. It is not being a gentleman to do so if he is serious in finding a partner. its sort of a "can't have things both ways" thing.

 

It seems to me what it boils down to is somewhere inside of you, you want there not to be a guy out there for you so you can continue to be unhappy. The more you pile up criteria, the smaller the field is. And the hidden things that you shouldn't find out right away about a guy, such as oral sex, etc, is another dealbreaker that you have down the road in the relationship to complain about. Also, there is just no guarantees in life. People change and our likes and dislikes change and we just have to roll with it.

 

I really feel that the best thing for you is to find some peace with yourself - go to counseling or support groups. You will never be happy with anyone if you can't be happy with yourself first. No one can let you down if that is the case.

[tiredofvampires]

Because I am opposed to divorce on moral issues, which I don't want to get into again.

 

I'm not a regular on your threads, so you'll pardon that I don't know the whole backstory with this guy. Your thread title caught my eye because I find ultimatums to be among the most pernicious of emotional devices.

 

There are times when it's important for two people to agree that professional help is needed for the relationship to succeed. But even then, it's a bilateral effort, in my opinion. Unless it's a question of "we can't continue to stay married if you don't face your (drinking/drug/addiction/anger management, etc.) problem", ultimatums of the kind you're talking about here are among the lowliest of tactics, alongside emotional blackmail and other near cousins.

 

But it's not just the ultimatum issue (and I agree merely deciding you don't want any relationship if not a romantic one is not an ultimatum, per se), it's the WAY you've spoken about him here. I don't have to read any of your other threads to think wow, I'd NEVER want to be with a man if I thought this little of him; and I would never want to be WITH someone who thought of me like you think of him.

 

I don't know what your "moral" issues are against divorce (I, myself, distinguish between "unfortunate" and "immoral"), and that's fine to leave it be, but I just find it strange that people who have strong theoretical, unbending moral stands do not apply themselves in what I would consider to be morally harmonious ways, in one-to-one, on-the-ground ways.

[browneyedgirl36]

I agree with TOV. I am also 39 (just a couple months from 40), and I can't imagine dating someone that I thought no one else would want or that I didn't think was particularly attractive or ambitious or anything.

 

I have read your threads about this guy, newwave, and I think he is a dead end for you. He can say he wants a relationship with you all he wants, but saying is not doing, and really, people say that stuff all the time and don't follow through with it. I think you are wasting your time with him.

 

And, in terms of ultimatums: They rarely work, especially in romantic relationships. Generally, they tend to have the opposite of the desired effect.

[oldenoughtoknow]

You don't love this guy, or respect him, or even like him. You're giving him ultimatums to force him to become what you want. He's beneath you because he isn't attractive and doesn't make much money. But yet, you want a future with him? Huh?

 

If this poor guy does cave to your ultimatum, and this does move forward...I'm afraid if you're opposed to divorce, you'd best start getting used to the concept. This is a train wreck if I've ever seen one.

[abitbroken]

 

There are times when it's important for two people to agree that professional help is needed for the relationship to succeed. But even then, it's a bilateral effort, in my opinion. Unless it's a question of "we can't continue to stay married if you don't face your (drinking/drug/addiction/anger management, etc.) problem", ultimatums of the kind you're talking about here are among the lowliest of tactics, alongside emotional blackmail and other near cousins.

.

 

I guess my thing is that if you have to go to counseling to BEGIN a relationship - to "fix" yourself to be able to be together that's totally different than a 20 year marriage where someone has an alcohol problem like wwhat tiredofvampires is saying. When its a new relationship, it just makes me wonder what's to come if it had to start off with counseling. maybe someone can enlighten me, but it seems like the formula for a very rocky relationship.

 

I guess I am particularly sensitive about all of this because my ex believed that everything would be perfect if only i "fixed" myself and part of the things he was saying were things about me that I cannot change - like my personality. He always also wanted me to go blonde (i didn't want to ruin my hair and its a perfectly good natural color) because he only dated blondes. i didn't, but everything else about me i could not change if I tried - he saw it as defiance.

[newwave]

He's not going to counseling for me, he's going because he has issues in his life. He has a fear of abandonment and rejection. He's been mistreated by other women and used often. He knows he's been mean to me and doesn't want to lose me. I didn't ask him to go.

[abitbroken]

He's not going to counseling for me, he's going because he has issues in his life. He has a fear of abandonment and rejection. He's been mistreated by other women and used often. He knows he's been mean to me and doesn't want to lose me. I didn't ask him to go.

 

Your mom said he was going to counseling because he didn't want to lose you. That is why I mentioned it

 

I think you should recognize that he might have some baggage and decide if you really want to be in a relationship with someone who cannot be in a relationship right now.

[tiredofvampires]

I guess my thing is that if you have to go to counseling to BEGIN a relationship - to "fix" yourself to be able to be together that's totally different than a 20 year marriage where someone has an alcohol problem like wwhat tiredofvampires is saying. When its a new relationship, it just makes me wonder what's to come if it had to start off with counseling. maybe someone can enlighten me, but it seems like the formula for a very rocky relationship.

 

Well, just to take the Devil's Advocate here, (because in reality, this did happen to me with my ex), sometimes you might meet someone who is grappling with a lot of issues that they'd like to get past. They might be going through a personal growth "spurt", at the time you meet them, which may involve resolving trauma from the past, hang-ups, fears, inhibitions, etc. that they are hoping to get greater resolution about. And this doesn't necessarily mean that they are unpartnerable, it just means that there may be a need for some patience and devotion to get through that together. I saw that then, and still do see it as reasonable in cases.

 

This is what I thought was happening when I was with my last ex (I was 37 when we met, fyi). I was already in therapy for my own issues, but felt capable of being in a stable relationship anyway. He and I started clashing very early in the honeymoon phase, though we were both motivated in the area of personal growth, so I felt we had great potential to grow together, at that early stage. He kept telling me that I was the best thing to ever come into his life, that I rocked his world and that he wanted to address the trust and intimacy issues he had, for us to work out. They were causing tremendous rockiness and continual roller-coaster upheavals, and I was glad he wanted to be working on himself. Friends told us (separately) that if 10 months in, we had to be in therapy to make it work, something was terribly wrong. We kept maintaining that we had something that would prove that wrong, once we got past some of this "break-in" stuff, because we really loved eachother, and this seemed to be a "growing edge." In theory, I believe such things can be workable.

 

But I won't ever want to do that again, myself. And now I agree with what those friends were telling us. It shouldn't be that much work in the beginning, or at least I don't WANT to do that much work in the beginning, ever again. I thought it was a sign that I had something special to gain, and really it was just a sign to get the hell out, which I didn't do fast enough.

 

And even in the case of a long marriage where a problem becomes such an obstacle (like an addiction) that you have to make an ultimatum...I'd say, you probably had signs at the beginning of the relationship you should have harkened to sooner. Not always, but often. I really want to know someone well before I marry them for this reason.

 

And I want not to have to change the person I meet or ask them to be a person they are not already, or to "go back to" the person they "once were", as you said, newwave.

 

At this age, it's going to have to be a take-it-as-it-is or don't buy it deal. Know the risks, assume them, know the flaws, accept them, and embrace the man as a whole. No more fixer-uppers for me.

 

I still want the latitude to grow with someone (how boring if we didn't) and to stimulate growth in eachother, but if it's coming down to "you better be this and that or else I don't want you", it's game over. I don't even want to START down that road, in fact. Never again.

 

Edit: oh, and abitbroken, I was also in your situation, as well. My ex was very demanding of ME, that I change in ways I couldn't. Somehow he thought it was a fair trade that if he was working on his trust issues, that I would in turn have to work on things like not having to eat as often as I do, to keep up my blood sugar. Uh....nope. So this subject pushes my buttons, too.

[Keyman]

He's not going to counseling for me, he's going because he has issues in his life. He has a fear of abandonment and rejection. He's been mistreated by other women and used often. He knows he's been mean to me and doesn't want to lose me. I didn't ask him to go.

 

Are you going to counseling? having read through this thread and your opinions on him and of yourself, I feel you have a lot of work to do on yourself. I'm with Hex in that I am not sure what you actually bring to the table in this relationship, and perhaps this is why he has been on and off about whether to enter a relationship with you.

 

The message you give off to us is possibly a similar one he is getting and it is confusing him. Sure, he may have some issues, name one person on these boards that don't. Sure he is going to counseling to sort something out. Perhaps he has yet to understand that he has a low self esteem and that this is why he has these feelings for you. I think once he figures out what is going on within himself, he will walk away from this toxic 'friendship' where you only what want you want and he has to give it no matter what.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

I agree with LD and Hex...and...well I couldn't read beyond that. WOW.

Rude and hateful do not a happy relationship make. This poor guy.

[DN]

This thread has run its course.