Women's view of kindness in men.

[ZizousamA]

Ladies, what do you think of kind, considerate, forgiving men? Do some women, unfortunately, confuse kindness and tolerance and patience in men as a sign of weakness? I mean, if a man is patient with his lady and puts up with being ill-treated at times and is considerate to her emotions, do some ladies think that the guy is a wimp?!!! So, do women want us to treat them with neglect so that we be "manly" enough for them? I don't see how the trait of kindness is related to being weak or coward or less manly. I think men should be kind to women and considerate with them more than they are with men. Do men have to be rigid and inconsiderate and neglect women in order to establish their manhood in the eyes of women? Kindness and weakness are not synonymous unless I live in another realm Kindness and other values are not gender specific. They are virtues that all people should try to possess and it has nothing to do whatsoever with being less confident or weaker. I heard, more than I could count, that if a man wants women to be good to him, he should treat them bad. As in neglect them and they will be great with you I can't bring myself to do this to anyone especially to a woman. I fail to see how you have to be a * * * * * * * to be a man in a woman's eyes. I mean I can't act like that and I don't think it's right. Many told me "well, if she called, don't pick up the first time she dials you. Let her call a few times then pick up. Then, when you pick up act like you're busy. Plus, if she says let's meet at ten, say no eight just for the heck of it."...... etc. I think that things like that are childish really and I won't do stuff like that to prove am a man. The reason is, that has nothing to do with manhood. That's simply being a jerk! Ladies, give me you're two cents. Is this really the way the world works? man = jerk?

[dragon lady]

You don't have to be a jerk to be a "man." Just don't be a doormat. There is middle ground here.

[nutbrownhare]

I wouldn't even consider getting involved with someone who wasn't kind and considerate; however, there are some guys who would describe themselves as 'nice', who will indeed be kind, considerate, patient, tolerant ... all the rest ... as a way of winning over the other person, making them dependent and ultimately being quite controlling. You can tell the difference between the latter and genuinely nice fellas by their response when they don't get their own way.

 

Some 'nice' men are actually sitting on a huge pile of hostility and resentment which will come bubbling up to the surface when things don't happen quite the way they'd like. All the giving is conditional, with strings attached. This is a totally different type of jerk to the one who will string people along, play games etc - but still a jerk.

 

Sure, there are some women who are addicted to abusive relationships because they themselves have issues around self-esteem; they won't respond to the 'nice' guy either, but a healthier woman will quickly spot a 'nice' guy who has simply cultivated a more covert way of operating dishonestly in relationships - and run a mile!

[BriarRose]

Dragon Lady is right. Nice does not equal doormat. For example,

Forgiving someone for cheating and taking them back with open arms = weak

Forgiving someone for losing their temper with you after they had a crisis at work = understanding.

[tiredofvampires]

If I had to list 3 qualities I'm looking for in a partner it would be: kindness, patience (a quality rarer than the white leopard these days), and forgiving/tolerant.

 

There is also a book out called, "Why Men Marry " so as you can see, that twisted psychology goes both ways. I've often thought, well then, I'll never get married if the how-to of it involves my becoming a beech.

 

Those are some very precious qualities, and they're getting harder and harder to find, especially with dysfunctional ideas swirling around that equate manliness with callousness and neglectful games. Those are human virtues, you're right...and when coupled with honesty and self-sufficiency, a guy becomes a MAN.

 

Keep up your beliefs. The woman who appreciates them will be someone who understands the value of a sustainable relationship, because these qualities are required for one.

 

EDIT: nutbrownhare makes some good points though about "faux" kindness; someone who is like that will end up being very passive aggressive.

[bridget]

Dragon Lady's right. Don't be a jerk, but don't be a doormat either.

 

I don't think that a kindness or consideration in a relationship equals weakness. Those are exactly the things you should be offering a woman. You are obviously a nice person to have asked the question - so you deserve a nice person in return who will appreciate those qualities.

 

There is definitely the risk of being too kind though - ie a doormat - and yes, that might make girls lose interest. So it's not a case of being a jerk deliberately - simply a case of keeping your own life, your own interests, your own friends and your own values. That will keep you interesting to a woman, no matter how kind you are to her!

 

From my own experience the only thing that has kept me with men that have treated me badly is my own low self esteem...a feeling that I need to try harder or be better to earn their love and affection. That of course has only lowered my esteem further. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to be responsible for doing that to somebody!

[BriarRose]

Being "kind" is not a ticket to put up with mistreatment from someone. Completely different. Yes, "kind", in it's genuine sense is the most precious trait a person can have, IMO.

[itsallgrand]

I think men should be kind to women and considerate with them more than they are with men. Do men have to be rigid and inconsiderate and neglect women in order to establish their manhood in the eyes of women?

 

Why?

 

And to the second q that is quoted: No.

 

Kindness, consideration....excellent qualities and ones I look for.

 

However, I'm looking for someone to treat me as an equal and who I can treat as an equal.

 

I don't want to work with double standards. Some people may be willing to and even feel flattered by them - whether it goes one way or another ( that the man treats a woman more poorly or with more lenience ) - but I just want to be treated as a sexy equal.

[nutbrownhare]

There is also a book out called, "Why Men Marry " so as you can see, that twisted psychology goes both ways. I've often thought, well then, I'll never get married if the how-to of it involves my becoming a beech.

 

Have you read 'Why Men Marry B....'s'?? Their definition of the term does not AT ALL involve being a nasty person; quite the reverse. When I was reading it, I reflected that this is how anybody with a proper self-regard and self-esteem would act; it's a lot more about how not to get hooked into games and letting yourself be controlled.

[tiredofvampires]

Have you read 'Why Men Marry B....'s'?? Their definition of the term does not AT ALL involve being a nasty person; quite the reverse. When I was reading it, I reflected that this is how anybody with a proper self-regard and self-esteem would act; it's a lot more about how not to get hooked into games and letting yourself be controlled.

 

No, I haven't read it, because the title turned me off so much.

 

I knew there was some kind of "catch", but I figured it'd be some gimmick.

 

But it sounds like you're recommending it, so from what you say of it, I'd be inclined to check it out.

[GarnetRed]

A person can act too nice (especially early on in getting to know someone). Sometimes too much niceness can come accross like desperation, which is a big turn off. Or "nice" turns into clingy. Or into over sensitivity when the "nice" isn't recieved enthusiatically.

 

Moderation is the key- be nice, but not over accomodating. The super nice shines later on when a relationship is firmly established.

[nutbrownhare]

But it sounds like you're recommending it, so from what you say of it, I'd be inclined to check it out.

I'd certainly recommend it - it's also absolutely hilarious!

 

(Incidentally, it's also where I picked up the 'wrestle with a pig' quotation I use in my signature

[jettison]

This topic gets confused on ENA more then any other, and it happens over, and over, and over again. Most people's version of being "nice" has nothing at all to do with being honest and forthright. Most people's "nice" is actually just "polite" which happens to be the polar opposite of honest. You are polite to your grandma. You should be polite to your waiter. You should be polite to the florist.

 

If you are always polite to your romantic partner, with few exceptions, and no matter what stimulus might be presented you by that partner, then you are missing the boat. You are no longer being honest. This is what women HATE, and this is why they lose respect for the men they date.

 

"Is anything wrong honey?" If you say "no, sweetheart, everything is great", but you're really p.o.'d inside because your partner showed up late to the restaurant you were meeting at for dinner, you are now being polite, and you are doing so to avoid conflict. Women aren't stupid though. They sense this in a man. So, you may think that you are making things better by not starting a fight, but you're not. You are making them worse.

 

Somewhere inside you, even if it's subconscious, you have this litter scorecard, and jilted men all over the internets are so happy to share their scorecard after they've been dumped. You see it all the time. "I treated her like gold!" "I even did her laundry!" "I never got mad at her when she would go out with other guys!"

 

"Nice"? That's not nice. That's hiding who you are inside and not showing the real you so that you can avoid conflict, and in your deluded mind, keep your girl close to you. Wrong answer. Your woman will pick up on that game, have no way to express to you what you're doing because it will make her sound crazy to put a voice to it, and then end up resenting you, and of course, pushing this envelope further, and further, and further, in hopes that finally you will stand up for yourself and say what you really feel, and yes, put her in her place.

 

Is this you beeing an "a-hole"? No, it isn't. It's you being honest. Women loath being humored. If they think you are humoring them, and secretly you think they're nutbag, but you just won't say anything then they will find a way to get rid of you one way or another.

 

So please, can we all put this to bed? If you're being "nice", but it's actually you being "polite" then you're not being genuinely nice. You're just putting on a front.

[quirky]

This is not gender specific. Anyone who is TOO nice it's often out of insecurity. And often passive, not speaking up for what they want in fear of displeasing the partner. Catering to all their needs so they don't leave (fear of abandonment). There's a fine line between you giving and someone taking the piss. And people will take the piss if you allow them. Sadly things are a lot like school; we need boundaries and a slight assertiveness from others. Noone wants to date an evil person, some like trouble more, some like peace and quiet. You wanna give? Check the reaction. If it's not appreciated don't give any more. Try and hold back. My rule is when someone gives me 5, I'll give back between 4 and 6.

 

Have you read 'Why Men Marry B....'s'?? Their definition of the term does not AT ALL involve being a nasty person; quite the reverse. When I was reading it, I reflected that this is how anybody with a proper self-regard and self-esteem would act

 

No, I haven't read it, because the title turned me off so much.

 

Same here TOV. But nutbrownhare is right. Personally it helped me quite a bit. I was pissed off reading it at the beginning because it was pushing my comfort zone and made me face my insecurity, hate men a bit, the games...but in the end I got a lot out of it.

[itsallgrand]

Well said Jettison. You nailed it on the head.

 

And I agree with what you said too Quirky.

 

Respect is a hell of a lot different than deference.

[Hermes]

Agreed, MissK:

 

Being "kind" is not a ticket to put up with mistreatment from someone. Completely different. Yes, "kind", in it's genuine sense is the most precious trait a person can have, IMO.

 

Hermes

[Cognitive_Canine]

Jettison explained it far better than I ever could. Same for men, I would say.

 

Also, going on his scorecard idea, some people think that people owe them something for their "nice" behaviour. No, they don't. Niceness is expected. You have to be nice just to be a decent human being. But, the world does not owe you a girlfriend or a sexual act just because you say 'thank you'. A lot of 'nice' people are actually quite manipulative.

[itsallgrand]

On a slight tangent about the word "nice": I always hated that word growing up.

Bc I came to understand that when people used it, said "now be nice", what they really meant was - submit.

 

It's hard to respect someone who is so willing to submit to my will at every turn, no matter how ridiculous it is. And hard to trust such a person too, it's like a cloak and dagger game.

 

Nice just means to me playing the social game that some people have; it speaks nothing of kindness. I picture the 50s housewife stuffing down her feelings to the shrine of "niceness". lol.

 

rant over.

[nutbrownhare]

Also, going on his scorecard idea, some people think that people owe them something for their "nice" behaviour. No, they don't. Niceness is expected. You have to be nice just to be a decent human being. But, the world does not owe you a girlfriend or a sexual act just because you say 'thank you'. A lot of 'nice' people are actually quite manipulative.

Exactly - people who are genuinely nice and kind behave that way because it's an expression of the way they feel inside. They don't do it because they're expecting a return - but they would also take their own wants and needs into account. They certainly wouldn't be hanging around in an abusive relationship, being 'nice' and then complaining to the world that this abusive person is abusing them! Or continuing to be 'nice' to a girl who has made it clear she isn't interested, and then complain that they're being given the runaround!

[DanDee]

Good guy > nice guy.

 

And a good guy includes kindness but not a doormat.

 

I agree with Jettision too in that very often the so called sweet, nice guys are covering up a darker aspect of their personality.

[jettison]

Good guy > nice guy.

 

And a good guy includes kindness but not a doormat.

 

I agree with Jettision too in that very often the so called sweet, nice guys are covering up a darker aspect of their personality.

 

You know, sometimes I'm mean, and crude, and I say messed up things, and I'm inappropriate, and I'll say and do things that others would never even dream of saying or doing. And this is why, in general, I'm liked by women. That's the "big secret". It's because they know I'm not hiding anything, that there isn't something nefarious boiling underneath the surface. I offer them who I really am even if it's stupid, or absurd, or ridiculous (and it will be plenty of times). Men appreciate this too. Think about any male friends you've had that you could tell were always just being nice to you. How do you respect them? You can't. It's impossible. You may not even know why you're not, but you don't, and you'll find a way to distance yourself from them.

 

Pretty women must get sooooo tired of hearing the same old song and dance, the same old "let me act nice to you" bit. They know that if they rejected the romantic advances, then just how "nice" would this guy really be? Typically? Not nice at all. So, the niceness was just an act. Unfortunately, when a woman goes through this enough times it can be extremely hard sometimes to take a genuinely nice guy for who he really is. That's why they will test, and test, and test to make sure that you're the real article before you get anywhere close to their heart.

 

You hear men think about compliments they could pay a woman. "Tell her her hair is pretty." Ok, whatever. What will go farther? "What the freak did you do to your hair today... are you going to grow dreadlocks?" It's mean, right? Ok, sure it is, a little. But you mean what you're saying because her hair isn't pretty right now, it's freaking messed up, and she's looking like the homeless guy who's playing guitar outside your bedroom window right now... and they know it, and they know you're being honest, and they know you're not saying it just to be nice to get in their pants. THIS is why "a-holes" get the girl. No fronts. No pretense. No blowing of smoke up asses. It is NOT because they're mean. It's because they stay honest. Being honest means that you are both nice AND mean, and that you are each of these things when you really mean what you're saying.

 

And the beautiful part? When you stay honest, and then you inevitably are able to offer genuine compliments about a woman, then she'll know that you're being 100% sincere, and she'll appreciate you so much more for it. Honesty sometimes requires being a jerk. Being a jerk means you're going to be respected as long as you're not doing it simply for the sake of being said jerk.

[DanDee]

Pretty woman must get sooooo tired of hearing the same old song and dance, the same old "let me act nice to you bit". They know that if they rejected the romantic advances, then just how "nice" would this guy really be? Typically? Not nice at all. So, the niceness was just an act. Unfortunately, when a woman goes through this enough times it can be extremely hard sometimes to take a genuinely nice guy for who he really is. That's why they will test, and test, and test to make sure that you're the real article before you get anywhere close to their heart.

 

Spot on. All I can say to this really.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Is that a mean comment? I consider that teasing. It completely depends on tone too. If you say it in a 'how dare you look nothing less than perfect around me, woman!" manner then that'd be a jerk thing to say. However, if you just poke fun at your partner and call them out on their idiosyncricies, I think that's just part of a healthy relationship.

 

If my boyfriend has bad breathe, I tell him. He brushes his teeth and we move on. It's nothing mean, it's honest. The tough thing with honesty is that you just need to know what is appropriate and what isn't. Telling your partner 'I wish you had larger breasts' or 'I wish you looked more like your hot friend' are pretty much A-hole comments no matter how you say it. Honesty is about what you say. But, it's also about what you don't and why.

[ZizousamA]

Thank for the responses. It is definitely not good to be "too nice" which is a doormat. Too much of anything is as negative as the lack of it. So, there is a limit to tolerance, and that limit varies depending on the person you're dealing with. For instance, tolerating some "big" things from a family member is within the limit. Of course there are things that cannot be tolerated no matter who the person was. Patience should be in correlation with the nature and strength of the relationship. However, too much is just as bad as too little, but I think people can determine really when they have crossed from being kind and understanding to being a doormat. Also, it depends on the circumstances really. If the person really had valid excuse or it was deliberate. That changes everything. Anyway, people shouldn't allow others to take them for granted and step on their pride and self respect.

[jettison]

Of course, we're on the same page, chapter, verse.