Marriage even if you don't "believe in it"

[pinkelephant]

well, i don't understand the stance against marriage. we live in a society where marriage will give you certain rights and i would like those rights. if he doesn't want me to have those rights, he doesn't deserve to be my husband. end of story!

 

i mean, there's no logic for "not believing in marriage", in our society.

[Cognitive_Canine]

well, i don't understand the stance against marriage. we live in a society where marriage will give you certain rights and i would like those rights. if he doesn't want me to have those rights, he doesn't deserve to be my husband. end of story!

 

i mean, there's no logic for "not believing in marriage", in our society.

 

I understand there is a lot of fear for men because of divorce. But, really, the women in my family have gotten Pret-ty screwed over by men and their mistresses. In fact, all the women in my family have been divorced at least once and it was the men that caused them. But, it doesn't stop me from wanting to be married.

 

And, even if there was no legal advantages to being married vs. being a long term couple, I'd still get married. I'm not even a girlie girl who wants a big wedding or anything. I just find something so endearing and hopeful about partnership.

[newwave]

well, i don't understand the stance against marriage. we live in a society where marriage will give you certain rights and i would like those rights. if he doesn't want me to have those rights, he doesn't deserve to be my husband. end of story!

 

i mean, there's no logic for "not believing in marriage", in our society.

 

Married couple legally have more rights than singles. They get tax breaks singles don't for instance and if one partner dies the other gets their estate. While I think many people don't truly believe in marriage, I think for others they don't believe in it at that point or with that person. This is fine, but once kids come into play, I have a problem.

[Lucius]

well, i don't understand the stance against marriage. we live in a society where marriage will give you certain rights and i would like those rights. if he doesn't want me to have those rights, he doesn't deserve to be my husband. end of story!

 

i mean, there's no logic for "not believing in marriage", in our society.

 

Perhaps not, from a purely practical point of view. But it is my experience that people generally choose to marry for less ... utilitarian reasons. It's the bulk of those reasons that I myself hold in sparse esteem. But yes, from a purely practical point of view, there are a couple of persuasive reasons to marry. Of course, the possibility of divorce yields equally strong incentives to NOT choose that path. All in all I'd say it's fairly balanced on the pragmatic front.

[sophie274]

But it is my experience that people generally choose to marry for less ... utilitarian reasons. It's the bulk of those reasons that I myself hold in sparse esteem.

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean?

 

I guess I think that even if many or even most marry for the "wrong" reasons,"these days", or reasons that are less than noble or virtuous or whatever, it doesn't weaken the idea and ideal of marriage as an institution. Or do you think that the idea/institution of marriage itself is questionable? Just curious, if you don't mind.

[Lucius]

Could you elaborate on what you mean?

 

I guess I think that even if many or even most marry for the "wrong" reasons,"these days", or reasons that are less than noble or virtuous or whatever, it doesn't weaken the idea and ideal of marriage as an institution. Or do you think that the idea/institution of marriage itself is questionable? Just curious, if you don't mind.

 

I don't think the traditional ideals of marriage are "wrong" at all, but they don't particularly appeal to my own sensibilities - nor do I consider them in any way necessary for a healthy, happy, monogamous relationship. When we take a good idea and make it rigid, pile dogma on it, rules and traditions on top of that, and some legal ramifications and societal assumptions for good measure, I tend to think what was "good" about the idea gets a tad suffocated under all that dead weight. I'd be perfectly happy living a monogamous, loving life with my partner without ever getting married. There's just no reason (as opposed to emotional motivation, social pressure, or conditioned expectation) to do so, in my view. To me it's just a formality - just more external puffery and noise. My love, like my commitment, exists in my heart - not in the intoned mutterings and declarations of a priest or celebrant.

[Blue Spiral]

Some people say they don't believe in marriage, but just mean they don't want to marry whoever they're with.

 

Others, like myself, truly don't believe in marriage, and have sacrificed relationships over it.

[sophie274]

Thanks for explaining. When you said what you did about holding them in sparse esteem, I wasn't sure whether you meant that you were "against" marriage, or could just take it or leave it.

 

I think it's quite difficult to put into words why one wants to get married/be married, in a way that's similar to trying to explain why exactly you might want children. I've seen some lovely phrasings on here about commitment and ceremony and lots of other things, but a lot of posters have also said that being married felt different than living together without them quite being able to say why, because nothing had outwardly changed. Seems to be a bit of a mystic element to the whole thing, really. Sorry, bit random ...

[Lucius]

I think it's quite difficult to put into words why one wants to get married/be married, in a way that's similar to trying to explain why exactly you might want children. I've seen some lovely phrasings on here about commitment and ceremony and lots of other things, but a lot of posters have also said that being married felt different than living together without them quite being able to say why, because nothing had outwardly changed. Seems to be a bit of a mystic element to the whole thing, really. Sorry, bit random ...

 

I think I understand. It's not necessarily rational, but it's no less sincere for that. My fiancee actually agrees with my rationale concerning marriage, but wants to indulge her emotional motivation - and a desire for simplicity and normalcy - nonetheless. Given that our views are not in conflict where it counts (in that we both want to spend our lives together as a monogamous couple, regardless of the context) there's no actual conflict or problem for us. I can bear some irrational pomp, fluff, and social pandering for her sake.

[sophie274]

I think I understand. It's not necessarily rational, but it's no less sincere for that. My fiancee actually agrees with my rationale concerning marriage, but wants to indulge her emotional motivation - and a desire for simplicity and normalcy - nonetheless. Given that our views are not in conflict where it counts (in that we both want to spend our lives together as a monogamous couple, regardless of the context) there's no actual conflict or problem for us. I can bear some irrational pomp, fluff, and social pandering for her sake.

 

And I bet you're excited about picking out the bridesmaid's dresses as well! But really, that's too sweet. My very best wishes, of course! (I think I feel the same way as your fiance, plus although I'm still trying to figure out my religious views, I'm 'spiritual' enough that I think I want some kind of religious ceremony ... and I'm also a terrible idealist/romantic at heart.)

 

I've noticed a small epidemic around me of young men (my age - college age) whose parents divorce after relatively long marriages, when these guys are in their late high school or early college years, who are completely shaken and traumatized by the experience and have sworn off marriage. In their case it doesn't have to do with fear of money/custody issues in the divorce - all three of the guys I am thinking of just said they completely lost faith in the idea of marriage, and even of love, because their model for marriage and love collapsed with no warning (to them - none of them saw it coming).

 

One of them "got over it" and got married, but their marriage is really struggling. Another dated a friend for over a year, was unable to ever tell her he loved her, and they broke up over that. The last is in a relationship with a friend, but vows never to get married.

[Lucius]

And I bet you're excited about picking out the bridesmaid's dresses as well! But really, that's too sweet. My very best wishes, of course!

 

Hehe - thank you.

 

I've noticed a small epidemic around me of young men (my age - college age) whose parents divorce after relatively long marriages, when these guys are in their late high school or early college years, who are completely shaken and traumatized by the experience and have sworn off marriage. In their case it doesn't have to do with fear of money/custody issues in the divorce - all three of the guys I am thinking of just said they completely lost faith in the idea of marriage, and even of love, because their model for marriage and love collapsed with no warning (to them - none of them saw it coming).

 

I can associate with that to a degree - my parents divorced in the final year of my own high schooling. I guess it never really threw me off that much. I can't say that I used them as any sort of archetypal "love model" that I aspired to emulate. As a couple, my parents really didn't resemble any relationship I myself had (or have) been a part of; they were fairly distant with each other.

 

But yes, there is a lot of disillusionment about marriage these days. I think that can be a good thing if it's tempered with rationality and optimism, though; illusions are better off shattered, IMO. The problem arises when love itself - and loving relationships as a whole - bear the brunt of this disillusionment, and when disillusionment becomes a kind of maintained disappointment or bitterness. Sadly that's something we see a LOT on these forums.

[sophie274]

 

But yes, there is a lot of disillusionment about marriage these days. I think that can be a good thing if it's tempered with rationality and optimism, though; illusions are better off shattered, IMO. The problem arises when love itself - and loving relationships as a whole - bear the brunt of this disillusionment, and when disillusionment becomes a kind of maintained disappointment or bitterness. Sadly that's something we see a LOT on these forums.

 

I completely agree. There's a big difference - and a big spectrum - between losing the fairytale fantasy and anchoring oneself in real life, and becoming hardened and bitter. I have a very lonely grandmother to show for what bitterness does, and I've always been a bit terrified of ending up like her, especially when I feel myself pushing people away. I think I've just about finished healing from my first "real" break-up, and I think I've managed to avoid bitter. A little disillusioned, but still hopeful, really wanting to date someone I like, but also completely panicked when I think someone might be showing interest in me because it's been a long time. And quite off-topic!

[Hermes]

When all is said and done, it is a choice. A lot of people marry (and divorce) and a lot of couples live in a civil partnership, or simply live together, and...some also break up, or remain together. IMO I don't think one can judge those who decide to marry against those who, for their own best reasons, decide not to marry but to cohabit. I don't see anything wrong with marriage as an institution, and likewise I do not see anything "wrong" with a couple living together.

 

In the EU, 40 marriages out of every hundred end in divorce.

 

I found this:

""The divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriage

50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.”

 

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%

The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%

The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%""

 

There is nothing "easy" about a break-up of a relationship, be it marital or otherwise. It is painful, indeed traumatic in most cases, regardless of whether the couple are married or otherwise.

Ultimately, either option is about loving and respecting each other, of putting work into the relationship, and taking the bad moments with the good.

 

Hermes

[Cognitive_Canine]

When were those ratings taken? I've heard it being a lot lower. It did peak in 2002 but I thought it went down to the 20's and 30's.

[FathomFear]

I think you misunderstand my point...my point was that many people DON"T want to get married because THEY want an EASY out...they don't want it legal because they want to be able to get out of it easily if they want to break up.

 

Right, and although that might be true for some people, that is still not a reason to marry. In the scenario you're presenting the relationship is already doomed. The person wants the relationship to end, or thinks there is a very good chance the relationship is going to end, so doesn't want to get married in order to avoid legal red tape later. IMO, that's a rather rational reason not to marry someone. I wouldn't want to marry someone who was working with the assumption that the relationship was going to fail. Who would? If I were in a relationship with a guy who wasn't happy I would want him to leave--I wouldn't want him to hide his feelings, become jaded, etc, because the legal hurdles were too high if he wanted to leave.

[Hermes]

Don-t know Cognitive. Percentages may vary, but anyhow I found this:

 

link removed

"As the divorce rate continues to hover around 50%, it would appear that multiple marriages are becoming the norm in American life, with older couples seeking mutual satisfaction and happiness rather than children in their later marriages."

 

And of course we have no idea of the ratings for the desperately unhappy and abusive marriages where, for whatever reason, the couple do not/cannot divorce (fear, financial insecurity, nowhere to go etc.), and remain stuck in a situation of misery.

 

I have nothing against marriage,but I am all for choice. That said, any relationship/marriage requires large amounts of commitment, maturity and respect.

 

Hermes

[Hermes]

I agree with you Fathom. If someone does not want a commitment, then why try to snare him or her into a situation where leaving would incur heartbreak and financial hardship. If I were set on getting married and the other person did not wish to marry, then the option is clear. Don"t marry for the sake of marrying.

 

Hermes

[annie24]

but you know, after a certain numbers of living together, depending on where you live, you are considered "common law married." and if you split up, you have to be divorced anyways.

[FathomFear]

I agree with you Fathom. If someone does not want a commitment, then why try to snare him or her into a situation where leaving would incur heartbreak and financial hardship. If I were set on getting married and the other person did not wish to marry, then the option is clear. Don"t marry for the sake of marrying.

 

Hermes

 

Well, to be fair I think you can still have a commitment to someone without marrying. But it should be genuine and not hinged on legal red tape. I'd want someone to commit to me because they want to; not because they're fearful of the repercussions. That's the distinction.

[FathomFear]

but you know, after a certain numbers of living together, depending on where you live, you are considered "common law married." and if you split up, you have to be divorced anyways.

 

This is true as well. Depending on where you live there are absolutely no differences legally between getting married and being common-law. At that point, the decision to marry really comes down to tradition/religious considerations. Nothing is materially added at that point.

[Hermes]

That"s what I mean, Fathom. Of course you can have a serious commitment to someone without marrying. You are correct. You commit to someone because you WANT to.

 

Best wishes

Hermes

[Cognitive_Canine]

Well, to be fair I think you can still have a commitment to someone without marrying. But it should be genuine and not hinged on legal red tape. I'd want someone to commit to me because they want to; not because they're fearful of the repercussions. That's the distinction.

 

I agree. I don't want someone to marry me because it is the 'next step' or because they rather marry me than break up.

 

I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be married to me. Same as I wouldn't want to be with someone who wants to be married to anyone or I wouldn't want to be with someone who I didn't want to marry.

 

It's not even about the commitment. I consider long term relationships just as committed. It's just a matter of "why not?". It'd irk me just the same if someone didn't want to be called "boyfriend and girlfriend". Does it make a difference? Is a tangible thing? No. But something about not wanting to do something for vague reasons such as "I do not believe in it" or reasons I do not agree with "It's harder to split' makes me extremely uncomfortable.

 

Plus, there is the whole not wanting kids outside of marriage. That's about security. I feel that if I were to have kids outside of a marriage, it'd be my kid. Sure, some guys would be responsible and stay with me anyway and be ecstatic about being a father. But, society will see it as my kid that I had with my boyfriend. If I were married, it'd be 'our kid'. No one would say "her kid that she had with her husband". It just feels more equal. I don't want to deal with a rake.

[Hermes]

Yes, Fathom. That type of arrangement is called a Civil Partnership over here. And the couple are no lesser people because they have not married in a church/before a judge/in a registry office.

 

You see, once upon a time, "cohabiting" used to be called "living in sin". I am glad those times are over.

 

I quote from the government department page on the subject:

 

""Civil partners must be treated the same as married couples on a wide range of legal matters, including:

 

 

•tax, including Inheritance Tax

•employment benefits

•most state and occupational pension benefits

•income-related benefits, tax credits and child support

•their duty to provide reasonable maintenance for their civil partner and any children of the family

•ability to apply for parental responsibility for their civil partner's child

•inheritance of tenancy agreements

•protection from domestic violence

•immigration and nationality purposes

How to register a civil partnership

 

In order to form a civil partnership you must first give notice of your plans. This involves letting a registration office know about your intention to register a civil partnership.

 

Once you've done that, notices are publicised by the registration authority for a period of 15 days, similar to marriage notices. A civil partnership can be formed in England and Wales at register offices or other approved locations.

"""

 

Hermes

[Hermes]

I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be married to me. Same as I wouldn't want to be with someone who wants to be married to anyone or I wouldn't want to be with someone who I didn't want to marry.

 

Precisely, Cognitive. As I said, a question of choice.

 

Hermes

[lavenderdove]

My experience has been that if someone says they never want to get married, after you've been together long enough to know whether you are compatible and want to stay together, it usually means they are just not that committed to you.

 

Most people who are genuinely in love with someone, can't stand the idea of that person leaving or going off with someone else, and they also actively WANT to bond to them and share everything including marriage and do see a long term future and hence are not afraid to commit to marriage, regardless of any statistics about success or failure of marriages in general.

 

Marriage IS different than living together, no matter what anyone says. There is a higher level of commitment and usually a greater level of willingness to work thru any problems rather than just throw in the towel and find someone else. It also offers lots of legal protections that live-ins don't have, everything from rights of inheritence, to rights to make medical decisions for someone else, to tax advantages, shared benefits etc. So there are significant reasons to marry, and if someone specifically rules it out, it usually means they aren't that committed to you (or still have doubts), or they are cynical about the institution of marriage and want their options open.

 

If marriage wasn't something to strive for, then gays would not be fighting so hard for the right to do it. It is a special state and commitment, and offers legal advantages.