Calling Men

[Batya33]

This is a belief that you have about men that is continually being challenged and contradicted by men and yet for some reason you choose not to believe them.

 

Because I know what worked and what didn't - despite your opinion that I don't know enough people (we can agree to disagree) to back up my opinion. And I don't give too much credence to "I would be turned off if she didn't call me as much as I called her in the beginning or if she didn't ask me out for a second date if I asked her for the first" or similar because I look at the scarcity of long term happy relationships where the woman did do equal amounts of calling/asking in the beginning or more. Obviously we have the correlation/causation problem but it's so widespread I formed that opinion (and certainly it was true for me).

 

Again, there are exceptions, especially among women who prioritize their version of "equality" from the very beginning - if they'd rather be single than date someone who would be turned off if she did as much asking out as he did when they were first dating, then by all means she should look for someone who felt as she did. Same for a woman who wants a passive man she can control. And as I've written I really don't know what's going on in the teenagers-early 20s category - maybe it's changed - anecdotally I think it hasn't changed much but I just don't have enough information.

 

I've known my husband for almost 15 years - been close with him for about half of that time. We started two relationships during that time and while he is more of a traditional guy, he certainly is pro "women's rights", has many women friends and colleagues who he respects, respects women(well, he respects people in general and doesn't differentiate by gender), certainly respected and admired my career, intelligence, opinions, etc. And if the subject of "how we met" comes up he loves the part of the story where he courted me - no, not "chased". And that includes the first time from almost 15 years ago.

 

Maybe it's just me but I think it carries over into the relationship even when you're settled down together, etc - the early part of the romance - and I think many men (most men!) love to feel and love to know that they did the pursuing (I don't like that term because it sounds too much like "chase" - not waht I mean), and came up with special dates (whether expensive or free or in between) etc etc.

 

And I've seen it the other way - couples where the guy is clearly not that into the woman where the woman did more or most of the pursuing in the beginning - he is with her but not in any enthusiastic way. That's only a small part of what I mean, but I don't think the "how we met/what happened in the beginning" stays in the past, forgotten, for most couples.

 

 

As far as MissKitty, I've given my opinion that what doesn't work for her is her insistence that a man who has met her only 2 or 3 times stop dating or looking to date other women or else he must not be "that" into her. I think that approach sabotages many potentially great relationships. But she has to live true to her values.

[DN]

Batya, the reason that I always argue with you on this is because I think that women might see what you say and take the opinion to heart - and lose out on a potentially great relationship and I think that would be most unfortunate:

• your personal experience that of one person only
  
• you have a very limited number of acquaintances compared to the general population - insufficient to give statistical credence
  
• of that number even fewer will have confided to you the reason a relationship failed or failed to even begin
  
• even if they did confide in you - they may not know the real reason for the failure and assumed it was because they did the pursuing.
  

Nothing ventured, nothing gained applies to women as well.

[FathomFear]

Who asks who for a first date - usually doesn't matter much (although I wouldn't advise someone to take the chance, all else being equal) but letting men do more or most of the asking in the beginning while the woman shows interest in other ways - that seems to work far better than the woman showing interest by doing more or most of the asking out in the beginning. Unless she wants a passive man and gets turned on by being in control in her relationships.

 

That's the thing--I don't think it's particularly healthy to want anyone to be "in control" of a relationship. The alternative is not to reverse the roles and have women do all the asking. The alternative is just to behave like...adults. Both parties should feel comfortable and initiate a date when they want to date. It shouldn't be dictated by old conventions that do nothing than set up unnecessary hierarchies of power.

[citymouse]

About the same, I guess.

 

 

I think it is working beautifully for you because you're not initiating dates with men who are not "into" you enough to do the legwork themselves.

 

 

 

Maybe it's just me but I think it carries over into the relationship even when you're settled down together, etc - the early part of the romance - and I think many men (most men!) love to feel and love to know that they did the pursuing (I don't like that term because it sounds too much like "chase" - not waht I mean), and came up with special dates (whether expensive or free or in between) etc etc.

 

.

 

It's not just you... it's a cultural and social phenomenon that has been around since the beginning of time. Men historically and traditionally have done the vast majority of the pursuing.

 

We are living in times of great change, and anyone who doesn't buy into the traditional male courtship role it is free to sit back and let the women step into that role. More power to anyone who wants to break out of the box and try a different approach, whether they be male or female. But I think most guys know that if they take the sit-back-and-wait-to-be-approached mode, they likely will be waiting a long time.

 

There is nothing wrong with women taking more initiative, if they're willing to settle for the relationship dynamics Batya described above, but I think there are some profound truths that can't be avoided, namely that there are fundamental differences between men and women that are evident in the way that courtship rituals have played out through the eons.

[DN]

namely that there are fundamental differences between men and women that are evident in the way that courtship rituals have played out through the eons.

If that were historically accurate you would have a point - but it isn't.

[citymouse]

If that were historically accurate you would have a point - but it isn't.

 

Not sure I'm getting your point.

[FathomFear]

There is nothing wrong with women taking more initiative, if they're willing to settle for the relationship dynamics Batya described above, but I think there are some profound truths that can't be avoided, namely that there are fundamental differences between men and women that are evident in the way that courtship rituals have played out through the eons.

 

I think you're making the common mistake of assuming that current social norms have been around forever. They haven't. Almost all of the dating rituals practiced today can be traced back to the 18th/19th century. Some (such as guys taking women out on dates outside of the home) only started in the 20th century. It wasn't long ago that just about every marriage was arranged, remember.

 

Again, this isn't about "swapping roles". It's about not fabricating roles at all. I think that's where we are rapidly going, as there really isn't any logical context to practice these roles any longer.

[DN]

I think you're making the common mistake of assuming that current social norms have been around forever. They haven't. Almost all of the dating rituals practiced today can be traced back to the 18th/19th century. Some (such as guys taking women out on dates outside of the home) only started in the 20th century. It wasn't long ago that just about every marriage was arranged, remember.

 

Again, this isn't about "swapping roles". It's about not fabricating roles at all. I think that's where we are rapidly going, as there really isn't any logical context to practice these roles any longer.

^^ what he said.

 

One thing you can learn from history is that things do change - social norms and conventions are always changing. They aren't even universally the same at any given point in time.

[citymouse]

I guess I was just thinking of the whole men are hunters, women are gatherers thing from the caveman days, and that men and women's brains evolved differently throughout the ages. Men have testosterone which makes them more aggressive, etc. And that that explains why today men do most of the calling (courting/pursuing), and why some men are put off when a woman initiates phone calls or courtship with them.

 

I know there are some examples throughout history of cultures where women were the aggressors or initiators and played a more dominant role in male/female relationship dynamics -- sending smoke signals to the guys before there were telephone lines, lol? -- but you can always find exceptions to the rule.

[FathomFear]

Hunting and gathering has to do with food. Your romantic partner isn't food, so I don't see why we would draw lines from those roles to dating. Especially given that we haven't been in the wild for 1000s of years now.

[citymouse]

Hunting and gathering has to do with food. Your romantic partner isn't food, so I don't see why we would draw lines from those roles to dating. Especially given that we haven't been in the wild for 1000s of years now.

 

True, but I think it makes great sense to draw those lines. I think it was Buddha who said that nothing exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.

[Batya33]

Batya, the reason that I always argue with you on this is because I think that women might see what you say and take the opinion to heart - and lose out on a potentially great relationship and I think that would be most unfortunate:

• your personal experience that of one person only
  
• you have a very limited number of acquaintances compared to the general population - insufficient to give statistical credence
  
• of that number even fewer will have confided to you the reason a relationship failed or failed to even begin
  
• even if they did confide in you - they may not know the real reason for the failure and assumed it was because they did the pursuing.
  

Nothing ventured, nothing gained applies to women as well.

 

On your last point, I totally agree- which is why I asked out several men and why I took initiative constantly when it came to men - except when it came to calling/asking me out I let the man do more or most of that in the very beginning.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that my opinion is echoed by so many people, who also base their opinion on their direct and indirect experiences.

 

And of course we agree that the social norms should change - I for one was not shy, typically liked/got along with shy men, and had no trouble asking out men - it just wasn't an effective way to find a long term happy relationship.

[Speranza]

I think perhaps as many people DISagree, though!

 

Each case is on its own, isn't it. There are some guys I would never ask out (knowing they wouldn't want me to, or just getting that feeling they were working up to it and not wanting to undermine them). Some guys I would.

[Rangafro]

Indeed there are many people who disagree. Regardless, the amount of people that believe a stance does not reflect how valid, accurate or well reasoned it is.

[Batya33]

Indeed there are many people who disagree. Regardless, the amount of people that believe a stance does not reflect how valid, accurate or well reasoned it is.

 

That's very true- I just go on what I observe about happy long term relationships and the impact of a woman asking a man out for dates and initiating more or most of the calls in the beginning of a dating relationship. My opinion is that it should be equal, but if I'm asked by a woman in her late 20s or older who wants a long term relationship what I think is an effective way to approach a new dating relationship, I will share what I've seen in reality, for many years, not what I wish it could be like.

 

I do think everyone is an individual and I balance that against the patterns I see in male/female dating interaction.

[Rangafro]

Batya, you keep playing the "in my experience" card in justification of your position. Don't get me started on the ills of anecdotal evidence, I simply want to know do you believe your experience is more valid that that of everyone else, and if so why? Have you dated more people? Have you dated people from more diverse cultural or socioeconomic backgrounds? Are you simply smarter?

[Batya33]

Batya, you keep playing the "in my experience" card in justification of your position. Don't get me started on the ills of anecdotal evidence, I simply want to know do you believe your experience is more valid that that of everyone else, and if so why? Have you dated more people? Have you dated people from more diverse cultural or socioeconomic backgrounds? Are you simply smarter?

 

I don't think my experience is more valid, I do think I have more dating experience than average (about 25 years), have had several long term relationships, all in a major city teeming with singles in their 20s and up. I have and have had at least hundreds of male and female friends, acquaintances, colleagues who shared their dating experiences and relationship experiences with me. I don't pretend to know what it is like to date in other cultures or countries - never said I did. I haven't dated too diverse a group of men but I've known and know people from many different cultures, economic backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, etc. I don't think my advice is valid for arranged marriages or for women who are desperate to marry anyone who will marry them because their culture looks down on women remaining single past a certain age., etc.

 

My opinion on what works most effectively in early dating has been echoed countless times and I know of very few happy long term relationships where the woman did more of the asking out/calling than the man when they first started dating. I know of many dating relationships that were sabotaged because the woman behaved that way (both from the male and female perspectives). But no I don't think my experience is more valid, not in the way you wrote - that is why I always limit it to my personal opinion and always note - because it's true! - that there are exceptions. I do take comfort in being told again and again how sound/valid/right my input was. Not because I want to be right - it's just an opinion - but to know that my input has worked for many people.

 

 

And no I don't think my input is better than anyone else's based on my level of intelligence - there are so many different kinds of "smarts" that I would never have that opinion. I do think I'm reasonably intelligent, have good common sense and good "street smarts" to the extent that matters.

[DN]

My opinion on what works most effectively in early dating has been echoed countless times

It has also been countered countless times and you always ignore that.

[Batya33]

It has also been countered countless times and you always ignore that.

 

I've seen very few posts from people in their late 20s and up in long term happy relationships where the woman did more of the asking out and calling than the man in the begnning of the relationship and when I have I have always written, when I saw the posts "of course there are exceptions". I have not seen countless contradictions, that's for sure. I've seen many posts from men saying they would be flattered if a woman asked them out, and disinterested if she didn't ask them out as often as they asked her out. I don't doubt that they would be flattered or feel that way - but to me that opinion/prediction is not significant if they haven't actually experienced that situation (especially since it is often a role reversal).

 

In fact, the last person who posted many times about being an exception said she realized, when the relationship ended after about two months (an intense two months on both ends), that her mistake was to ask him out for the second date when he didn't call her - at the time he told her he wasn't sure if she was interested in him but it became clear to her that he wasn't that into her to begin with, and that it would have been better for her to leave well enough alone and not call him and ask him out.

 

She wrote that she would not be making that mistake again - and this after many posts about how women have to go for what they want in romantic relationships, should ask out men, etc just as she had. Just one example of many.

[DN]

I will say this to any woman reading this thread who is not in a relationship and is interested in someone - ask him out. If you do you may end up with the best and longest-lasting relationship of your life - it may last until the end of your life. But if you do not ask him out because of some out-dated idea of gender roles or because of other people's extremely limited experience that really has nothing at all to do with yours then you might never get another chance. Don't be put off by an example of someone who didn't make it - sometimes you have to try more than once or twice to succeed in getting what you want.

 

You have nothing to lose that a man in a similar position also has to lose. And you have everything to gain.

 

Do not allow yourself to be persuaded against taking that chance by your own fears or the prejudices of other people. All relationships involve chance and an element of risk. Be courageous and don't take the easy way out because it won't serve you.

[annie24]

lol, you guys cancel each other out. and you're both out of the dating pool now.

[Batya33]

lol, you guys cancel each other out. and you're both out of the dating pool now.

 

LOL - well DN and I agree that there is no problem asking a man out on a date. Doing more of the asking, in the beginning - I see a problem with that if the woman is seeking a happy LTR. I also don't think it's the best idea to ask a man out but asking a man out for one date, especially something casual, probably makes little difference in the long run.

 

I don't agree that women take the easy way out by not asking - I did my share of asking (was never effective) and it would have been far easier if it had been - waiting by the phone, or, later, for an e-mail at times, was often painful and stressful - would have been much easier if I knew that I wouldn't impact negatively the often fragile dynamics of early dating by asking him out.

[DN]

I wonder how many people have lost the chance of happy LTR's precisely because they have taken that advice. We shall never know of course but it would be tragedy if just one couple had. I would not want that responsibility.

[Rangafro]

Batya, you seem to think your experience is valid enough to draw generalisations about the nature of dating, to want warn people about it, and say that what doesn't confirm your experience is an exception to the rule. I can not confidently say what does and does not work, so I try not to make assumptions. I am not buying what you are selling though. First of all, however vast your experience is it can not be substantiated here. Usually I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this is a big generalisation here. Secondly, however intelligent you are I doubt you have approached this with a truly critical mind. You make casual observations, you have hearsay from friends, you don't analyse in detail the factors that play a role in relationship with deductive reasoning, and you don't have any real data.

 

I've seen very few posts from people in their late 20s and up in long term happy relationships where the woman did more of the asking out and calling than the man in the begnning of the relationship and when I have I have always written, when I saw the posts "of course there are exceptions".

 

To begin with there are very few examples where the women takes as much, if not more, initiative than than man. To say this is simply not meaningful. To be in a long term relationship it means the women needed to have done this several years ago, and I'm sure there would have been even less of that going on back then.

 

I think it's a cop-out to simply say "there are exceptions". You are clearly aware that there are cases that don't confirm your experience.

 

 

In fact, the last person who posted many times about being an exception said she realized, when the relationship ended after about two months (an intense two months on both ends), that her mistake was to ask him out for the second date when he didn't call her - at the time he told her he wasn't sure if she was interested in him but it became clear to her that he wasn't that into her to begin with, and that it would have been better for her to leave well enough alone and not call him and ask him out.

 

If he isn't interested he isn't interested. You don't have the evidence to say he lost interested specifically because she took more initiative, or that he would be more interested if she just let him come to her. Do you think men have never asked out a women only to find she was not interested?

[Hemorrhage]

If a woman won't take the initiative to call me every once in a while then I'm not going to call her and find someone who will.

A simplistic, blunt, and highly effective philosophy.