Women who play hard to get.

[veda999]

I'm sorry, I kind of feel like your asking me " why is the sky blue?". How do you not know this?

 

I'm married 25 years without reading all that analytical nonsense so apparently I know more than some.

[MakestheBest]

And they are supposed to begin AND END with the initial dating. Not taken into the relationship itself.

 

Sounds like the "relationship" such as it is would be built on games, so how could it end with the initial dating? Are you saying the initial dating does not drive the relationship? Flawed logic here.

Lol!

 

What do you do on first dates? Stare deeply into each other eyes and reveal each and every though on your mind? Do you tell him about your mom's mastectomy or the time your dog died? Do you tell them on the first date about your longing to have 2 boys and one girl and you want to name boy number two after your grandfather Petey? Prob not, its not appropriate. You select the things that you say when you date someone initially to present yourself in a better light and also to determine if they are worth the info

 

THAT my dear is a "game".

 

Once you've determined that the person is worthwhile and they the same of you why would you continue to do behave in the same exact way?

 

 

But if you do talk about your grandpa Petey and his sclerosis on date number one. Good Luck with all of that. I mean you want to start how you finish, right?

[FoxMulder]

"dating books"?

 

Life, Common Sense, Psych Class, Sociological finding, general knowledge, This article on 20/20 that compared boys to girls class room activities. The millions of time anyone has ever said men are more aggressive, The millions of random articles that have been out there that talk about higher levels of testoterone and its effects, what has worked in mine and my friends dating lives, talking to men, talking to mom, talking to dad, movies, radio, listening to the guys at the barbershop when my hair was super short, talking to my ex bfriends and their friends...oh yeah...and ure random dating book

 

I'm sorry, I kind of feel like your asking me " why is the sky blue?". How do you not know this?

 

I'm a man and I would absolutley hate it if I had to chase a woman.

[MakestheBest]

I'm sorry, I kind of feel like your asking me " why is the sky blue?". How do you not know this?

 

I'm married 25 years without reading all that analytical nonsense so apparently I know more than some.

I appreciate that, and would definitely defer to your logic on how to maintain a relationship. But there are a million different healthy relationships on the planet. Not just yours. And to be clear, I'm not advocating "playing games". I'm saying that some of the "games" are a natural course of dating.

[HouseKitten]

I'm a man and I would absolutley hate it if I had to chase a woman.

 

Just curious - have you ever tried it? I gather that you don't have any relationship experience yet - is that from a complete lack of interest, or a case of trying, but not succeeding?

 

'Chase' does not always have to mean 'relentlessly pursue over months and months', but simply having the ability to approach a woman, chat her up and ask her out on a date. Just being the person who takes the lead makes you more of a 'chaser', but it's not necessarily a lot of effort.

[veda999]

You are confused. You should not be concerned with topics like that on a first date, you should be in the observation mode. Screening your conversation is not a game, it is a courtesy you extend to the other person.

 

So what you are saying is, people need to get over a few initial awkward dates before they can dump on their s/o's? Put forth a good image and then drop the bomb on the poor guy?

 

good luck with that . . .

[bambooshski25]

I agree! That is what I am doing right now is playing hard to get. This guy that I am liking is sending me mixed signals. I think he's playing hard to get as well. Cuz he's liking me and well it's obvious that I am liking him too. go read my thread : mixed feelings : emotions and feelings and leave me a comment. No one has left me a comment yet and I am beginning to wonder if no one knows how to comment on my situation or they just don't want to comment to be afraid of hurting my feelings. who knows.

[veda999]

I appreciate that, and would definitely defer to your logic on how to maintain a relationship. But there are a million different healthy relationships on the planet. Not just yours. And to be clear, I'm not advocating "playing games". I'm saying that some of the "games" are a natural course of dating.

I think I understand the spirit of what you are saying. I think the "games" you mention aren't games at all. To me, games are withholding one's wish to spend time with someone by making up a busy schedule, or making oneself appear more desirable by sending flowers to oneself, ridiculous things like that. The "games" you mention are harmless.

[FoxMulder]

Just curious - have you ever tried it? I gather that you don't have any relationship experience yet - is that from a complete lack of interest, or a case of trying, but not succeeding?

 

'Chase' does not always have to mean 'relentlessly pursue over months and months', but simply having the ability to approach a woman, chat her up and ask her out on a date. Just being the person who takes the lead makes you more of a 'chaser', but it's not necessarily a lot of effort.

 

I'm ok with making the first move and taking the initiative in the beggining. But I'm not going to do all the work and initiate EVERY contact, which is sadly what most woman expect from a guy.

[MakestheBest]

I think I understand the spirit of what you are saying. I think the "games" you mention aren't games at all. To me, games are withholding one's wish to spend time with someone by making up a busy schedule, or making oneself appear more desirable by sending flowers to oneself, ridiculous things like that. The "games" you mention are harmless.

Big Grin! @ Veda. Yes... Your last post before this it seemed like we were basically agreeing while disagreeing about the agreement. lol.

 

Sorry I was responding so testily btw- I think i felt sensitive to the things you were saying

 

So to reiterate...When I typed "games" in quotes I really meant "observation mode" as you put it. But good people sometimes try to be in 'observation mode' without understanding why they are doing it and then it turns into a messy game. Or somepeople are just overall unhealthy. I dont think in anyway shape or form a person should be rude, disrespectful or mistreat someone.

 

I'm glad we sorted that out.

[MakestheBest]

I'm ok with making the first move and taking the initiative in the beggining. But I'm not going to do all the work and initiate EVERY contact, which is sadly what most woman expect from a guy.

I don't think that is true. Maybe you should shift your focus on a different sort of girl?

[HouseKitten]

I'm ok with making the first move and taking the initiative in the beggining. But I'm not going to do all the work and initiate EVERY contact, which is sadly what most woman expect from a guy.

 

Like Makesthebest, I don't agree with this - what knowledge are you basing this off?

 

Bearing in mind that 'ENA posts' is not exactly a representative survey. People are here because things aren't going the way they should. Several people besides myself have said that although it's nice for the man to make the initial contact, once you're actually seeing each other it balances out.

[Nixee]

I'm a man and I would absolutley hate it if I had to chase a woman.

 

The guy I'm seeing.... He asked me to be exclusive after we'd been seeing each other for awhile, and I kinda pulled away... I told him that I'm not ready for that, that I need to go slow.

 

Even before this he had at least one moment where he stopped and point blank asked me if I was even interested in him... because he was worried that he was chasing me for no reason.

 

He has said "I don't want to just chase and chase..." but then when we talked, the clarification came out - and this is what I think is key here - what he meant was: he didn't want to feel like he was chasing someone who had absolutely no interest and he had no hope of being with.

 

When I told him that I'm not playing games at all - that I'm not "playing hard to get"... that I'm not disinterested.. but that I really just need to take my time to feel really comfortable with him and let things develop because of who I am and what I am going through, he seemed to react differently. Not only do I reciprocate - I do my part to stay in contact, show my interest, etc. - but he seems very happy to chase.

 

So I guess my theory there is that you may feel differently about chasing if a) you are chasing something/someone that you feel is worth it/may lead to something and b) you are given hope/reciprocity. Chasing someone who shows little or no interest is a losing game.

[galaxy71]

After page 4 i skipped to the end to post so I hope I'm not talking over anyone:

 

The origin of "games" is this: Neither a man or a woman is supposed to date someone who is unworthy of their attention. Men are naturally hardwired to chase, and women are biologically hardwired to make 'decisions'.

That statement is a little too vague. Men are less selective than women as they are hardwired to reproduce with as many women as possible. Women are more selective than men since they are more invested in the child. They are the ones who are left vulnerable when they are pregnant for 9 months and when they are expected to take care of the baby. Men just donate the sperm, but they are not neccesarily required to care for the child. The fact that women are more selective than men does not necessarily preclude them from chasing high value men like Tiger Woods or Bill Clinton. Two of my coworkers who are musicians didn't have problems having women chase them. It's just that women are pickier of who they "chase" they men are. Men chase average-looking and above-average women. Women chase alpha males.

 

Thats why relationships where the women do the chasing rarely work. A woman who gives in to a man before he has proven he is worth her time won't be taken seriously.

But the reason why men reject women is that they are not physically attracted to her. It has nothing to do with being the chaser or the chasee. We guys are pretty rigid about looks. Either we are attracted to or not attracted to you. No amount of money or status will change our minds about. Attraction for guys is an off-on switch.

 

E.G. says " i love you" waay before she knows him, wants to take care of him and please him and barely knows him, has sex too early and she barely knows him. They cheapen themselves. A woman who knows that she is valuable won't do any of these things because she is waiting to see if her partner is as valuable as she is.

 

Hard to get shouldn't be a "game", but when it is- it is for either one of two things.1) A woman who values herself is interested in the man and is actively testing him to see if he is worth her attention. or 2) a more insecure woman is trying to gain the same level of respect that a more confident woman naturally gets and is afraid of being hurt.

But testing to see if a guy is worth her attention is not the same as playing games. When I think of "playing games", I think of people playing with other's emotions for their own entertainment. Determining whether someone has good genes and would make a good relationship partner does not require game-playing. I have doubts that game-playing has any evolutionary-advantage at all. Game-playing places artificial barriers in the mating process that might cause a high-value male to lose interest. Men prefer to be with women who are willing to reciprocate their interest. Is it more efficient to spend a moderate amount of time and energy with a woman who is interested in me or is it more efficient to spend lots of time and energy for a woman who may or may not be interested? Game-playing might attract low-value males who are in it for the chase. These guys who are only in it for the chase will lose interest and not stick around with the woman after she gives birth.

 

 

Games get annoying when: 1) The person who has been deemed the "chaser" is very anxious to get things to progress ( but this person needs to know that he should be testing that woman as well). 2) the person who is chasing doesn't know how to and finds the whole process frustrating.

And things get annoying when society does not hold women accountable for learning how to show interest in men. Men are supposed to do all the chasing. Yet women are not expected to be competent at showing interest through flirting. When a women complains about how she is attracting guys that she is not interested in, nobody tells the women that she should learn how to show interest in a guy.

 

OP if you have to do ALL of the work with no reciprocation that is not a game. The woman is not interested. She may not be stringing you along at all, she is just trying to be polite and hoping you get the hint. But I dont think you should personalize it or let "games" frustrate you. They are just ways of people testing each other and themselves. They can be really fun if you let go and dont take them seriously. And they are supposed to begin AND END with the initial dating. Not taken into the relationship itself.

Sorry, but I don't think it's fun. Most average guys have to get rejected a lot, before they find a women who is willing to reciprocate their interest. For guys, we spend a lot of time chasing false leads. It is no fun trying to differentiate between the women who play games and the women who are not interested. For us guys, if we chase the wrong woman, we run the risk of getting stigmatized as a "creep". Playing games is fun for frat guys, athletes, musicians, pretty boys, and muscular guys. Unforunately, most guys are not blessed with the good looks of Casey James, a contestant in American Idol. For most average guys, finding a girlfriend is like looking for a job. We send out lots of resumes and we get awarded with nothing for our efforts.

[veda999]

great post galaxy71 . . .

[MakestheBest]

The fact that women are more selective than men does not necessarily preclude them from chasing high value men like Tiger Woods or Bill Clinton.

 

true but this doesnt' really help unless you happen to be Tiger Woods or Bill Clinton. And case in point, Tiger Woods chased Elin. I don't know how u identify "alpha males' but in my experience real alpha males don't really like to be chased either

 

Two of my coworkers who are musicians didn't have problems having women chase them.

 

These women sound like groupies...how often do your friends turn these women into their girlfriends?

 

But the reason why men reject women is that they are not physically attracted to her. It has nothing to do with being the chaser or the chasee. We guys are pretty rigid about looks. Either we are attracted to or not attracted to you. No amount of money or status will change our minds about. Attraction for guys is an off-on switch.

 

I don't think I said "reject" I think I said " take seriously". I have some really beautiful female friends that men snatch up over and over again, but despite their beauty they are still disrespected and dumped repeatedly.

 

And things get annoying when society does not hold women accountable for learning how to show interest in men. Men are supposed to do all the chasing. Yet women are not expected to be competent at showing interest through flirting.

 

In what galaxy is this?? lol...just realized ure name- no pun intended truly

 

But testing to see if a guy is worth her attention is not the same as playing games.

 

I agree, I thought we were talking about games such as not answering the phone straight off, or deferring a date to another day to not appear too busy and similar things...those things are games that are meant to appear more attractive and to stir his interest. The age old 'drop a pen to see if he will pick it up" game is something that women did to determine what kind of man they were dealing with...those were the games I was talking about... ( I'm making the decision to leave this post exactly as it is, knowing full well that it is going to get misinterpreted.)

[Ms Darcy]

So, just for the discussion ...

 

I have noticed a lot of men say that they don't mind women chasing them. They even say that they prefer it. Now for the men that I have seen, some famous and some just regular guys that I know ... the women that they actually marry are the ones that they pursued.

 

So, for a woman who wants to marry, what message does this send? It seems to suggest that it's ok to chase if you only want to be seen as a playmate, but that you should let him pursue if you want marriage.

 

On the other hand, if a guy catches your eye, I think that there are very proactive ways to indicate your interest without being aggressive.

[galaxy71]

true but this doesnt' really help unless you happen to be Tiger Woods or Bill Clinton. And case in point, Tiger Woods chased Elin. I don't know how u identify "alpha males' but in my experience real alpha males don't really like to be chased either

 

 

 

These women sound like groupies...how often do your friends turn these women into their girlfriends?

 

They marry them like my coworker friends. My coworker friends weren't musicians that anyone hear have heard of, but they were pretty popular in the local night scene. What I don't understand is that you seem to apply that nice women never initiate conversations with guys they are attracted to. They won't even talk to guys that belong to their social circle. They don't return phone calls from guys they don't like. They don't tease or banter with guys that they don't fond of. Several guys in this forum have said that the reason why they got in a relationship is the fact that a woman ask them out. It happens everyday where women initiate conversations with guys they like. Guy don't lose respect for a woman because she initiated a conversation or returned a phone call.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, I thought we were talking about games such as not answering the phone straight off, or deferring a date to another day to not appear too busy and similar things...those things are games that are meant to appear more attractive and to stir his interest. The age old 'drop a pen to see if he will pick it up" game is something that women did to determine what kind of man they were dealing with...those were the games I was talking about... ( I'm making the decision to leave this post exactly as it is, knowing full well that it is going to get misinterpreted.)

Those games are techniques used by shy women who are clueless about flirting. I remember the moderator of another forum who was a big defender of the book "The Rules". She defended the book as a way for women to avoid being needy and insecure. I really don't know how playing games works for confident women who don't have problems with being needy and deserate with guys. The big difference between banter and teasing verus appearing unavailable is the fact that banter, teasing, and sexual innuendos are fun and playful. It's win-win on both sides. On the other hands when a woman appears aloof, it could hurt both parties. The woman might cause a guy to lose interest in her. On the other hand, a guy might get tired and frustrated with all these mixed signals.

 

I am going to be honest. I think that a lot of woman don't here know how to flirt because they never needed to learn that skill. What's the point of being a good listener or being warm and pleasant when hordes of guys will approach you no matter what type of personality you have? I remember this one female dance instructor who made the comment that men lead, but women have to follow by making beautiful moves. Contrast this with dating, where men chase, chase, and chase to the point that some of them end up looking desperate and needy like that one guy in another thread who cried and yelled because the woman didn't have the time to spend every single hour and day with him.

[greywolf]

I've never played hard to get, but I think I am pretty hard to get.

[FoxMulder]

Girls who wants the guy to chase her, do all the work and initiate contact every time are not relationship material, atleast not for me. So no I wouldn't chase a girl even if she was intrested and it could lead to something, because if she really liked me she wouldn't force me to chase her.

[MakestheBest]

@galaxy-I don't believe I'm following what you're saying in your argument. There is a point where I respectfully believe that you have simply become angry at things that have happened in your dating life and are now demonizing and generalizing when it comes to women. A woman who doesn't return phone calls or sit still for conversations with you is simply not interested. There isn't much argument about that. Even if you chase enough to get her to go out with you once or even twice if she is not reciprocating she really isnt interested. So to continue when the woman is behaving this way is a bit creepy yes.

 

Also "initiating a conversation/ returning phone calls" and a woman "chasing" are two totally different things.

 

Is it possible that you keep choosing and going after women who aren't interested in you and ignoring women that potentially might be interested in you?

 

 

Contrast this with dating, where men chase, chase, and chase to the point that some of them end up looking desperate and needy like that one guy in another thread who cried and yelled because the woman didn't have the time to spend every single hour and day with him.

 

these men are...(how do I say this politely?) mildly insane. I would get the local police force involved in these situations

 

@ the OP, I totally agree with ure last post... Plenty of fish in the sea!

[veda999]

Girls who wants the guy to chase her, do all the work and initiate contact every time are not relationship material, atleast not for me. So no I wouldn't chase a girl even if she was intrested and it could lead to something, because if she really liked me she wouldn't force me to chase her.

I think at this point using Tiger Woods chasing Elin is a poor example given how that turned out. My feeling is: if a woman waits for the men who "chase" her, she could miss out on the men she really wants when all she has in her scope are the men that think they want her because she knows how to play the game. It limits her options and with such a high divorce rate I don't think the man-chasing-the-woman system is working out too well anyway, do you? And to call woman who meet and like musicians "groupies" is a stereotypic characterization.

[MakestheBest]

I think at this point using Tiger Woods chasing Elin is a poor example given how that turned out.

 

I didn't bring Tiger Woods up into this conversation. But when I spoke about it it was to refute galaxy's point that "alpha males dont chase". That point is still valid. If we were to use them as a model of marriage-No I don't think a superstar unsafe-sex addict would be ideal husband material. But returning to my point. Alpha Male's still initiate and chase and seem to like to do it. Also I don't think that the way the relationship was initiated is the sole determiner for how the marriage/relationshp ends up. I'm sure you would agree that its a lot of very complicated components involved.

 

@ Alpha Males: I was watching some television show where they had captured footage of Jeff Goldblum repeatedly going up to young women and getting shot down over and over again ( I think they were too young to know who he was). But he kept at it...It looked like he may have been enjoying himself. Although we all know there are plenty of arenas where this guy could walk into a room and women would throw themselves at his feet, He seemed to like trying cold just like a regular guy.

 

with such a high divorce rate I don't think the man-chasing-the-woman system is working out too well anyway, do you?

 

I don't think that the way the relationship was initiated has anything to do with divorce rates....I feel like that is a totally different ( and much needed ) thread-but then what do I know

 

@ the musicians /groupies comment. Galaxy defined his friends as "alpha males" because they were musicians. He seemed to intimate that those women chased them because they were musicians....if that is true those women are groupies. It doesn't matter if the guys are superstars or local stars.

 

Also women have been expressing interest in men for centuries without initiating.

 

We are living in a world where it is uncommon for a woman to walk up to a man, gently push his hair out of his face, offer to buy him a cold beer and then get his number. It happens...but its rare. And in my experience with men both dating and talking to them, if a woman was this aggressive they wouldn't like the dynamic.

 

If any man wants to try his luck out and wait for this kind of woman, by all means have at it. I just think its going to be a hard road to hoe.

 

And if you have to chase a woman down repeatedly and she is not reciprocating...she's not interested. There is no need to rationalize it. Move on to someone who is.

[veda999]

We are living in a world where it is uncommon for a woman to walk up to a man, gently push his hair out of his face, offer to buy him a cold beer and then get his number.

 

. . . hopefully this is uncommon for men too, way too aggressive. As you say, he will wait a long time for a woman like that, and hopefully he never encounters one. You exaggerate to make a point, and that is fine, but I think you could unintentionally mislead.

[veda999]

Galaxy defined his friends as "alpha males" because they were musicians. He seemed to intimate that those women chased them because they were musicians....if that is true those women are groupies.

 

in some cases they may be groupies if they like any musician, but I have nieces and nephews born of my musician brother and the mom probably liked him for his talent but did not like any musician, just him. She was a musician herself and so was her father.

 

I perceive you trying to put all this in a neat and tidy box but unfortunately life is much more complicated than that. You mean well, though, and you certainly are a good debater!