No sex until marriage?

[Keraron]

While it will change like personality will change over time, my sexual side has a core that will probably remain mostly unchanged for the rest of my life.

 

And, like personality, I do not have control in what direction it decides to shift/stay in.

 

I can compromise, I might be able to learn to love things or at least tolerate them. But, if I can't...I can't. And if he can't, he can't. It would really suck to be in that situation but I know I couldn't bear to deny myself sexual satisfaction for a lifetime, even if he was perfect in every other way.

 

Could you give me a realistic example of what you mean? What kind of incompatibilities might exist in two people's "bedroom personality"?

Why can't they be overcome?

 

And why do you believe that you can't control in what direction it decides to shift/stay in? Isn't discipline a feature you acquire through personal growth, maturity? Don't you think commitment itself a type of discipline?

 

(Free will vs instincts)

[Keraron]

The disadvantage is that sexual incompatibility is one of the major reasons for marital discord and divorce. If you have not gotten to know your partner sexually before binding yourself to them, you run the risk of disappointment and/or major relationship conflicts if you have an active sex drive but your partner turns out to be voluntarily asexual, inhibited, prudish, boring, cold, selfish, (

 

I still have a problem understanding what sexual (in)compatibility means concretely and why it cannot be overcome.

 

You speak of active sex drive vs inhibited/prudish/etc.

 

Don't you think these depend on the time (life period), mood and ideology of the people involved?

 

I had a very good female friend (whom I was in love with, but didn't know at which level she reciprocated) who once tried to get intimate with me. On that day I was quite in a bad mood and didn't even understand what she wanted. I realized she wanted sex only months later... There was a communication problem. But labeling that as "sexual incompatibility" and using mere lack of sex as a reason for not committing to each other sounds gross.

Don't you think?

[Keraron]

OP, I think there's nothing wrong with waiting for sex until marriage/long-term commitment. I think people have to do what works for them. However, I've never understood why it's wrong to put emphasis on sex. Some think communication is more important, others think having a recreational partner is what is important, or for some the emotional connection is most important. What is wrong with those that think sex is an important part of their relationship?

 

There's nothing inherently wrong, but it's wrong for my set of values that firstly include fairness. When talking about "emphasis on sexual aspect" I originally meant physical attraction.

For me, it is unfair that a person would choose to be in a relationship with A and "friend-zone" B for the only reason that A is more attractive than B.

There's nothing wrong with having preferences, but it's just unfair.

 

Secondly, I look for love in a committed, infinitely-lasting relationship, i.e. I value the idea of working on the relationship, becoming compatible, sacrifice, discipline, friendship (my wife has to be my best friend! No differences between friendship and love.) etc. above attraction, "love at first sight" and other things that are left to chance and randomness, are a gift of nature but say nothing about the human accomplishments of an individual

 

Thirdly (again, because I value commitment and infinity a lot), if I do have a strong sexual drive, and I'm used to having sex all the time with my girlfriend... what happens when she goes abroad for a year?

[greywolf]

Could you give me a realistic example of what you mean? What kind of incompatibilities might exist in two people's "bedroom personality"?

Why can't they be overcome?

 

I think she means differences in sexual preferences.

 

For example, I really need to be with someone who loves sex. Meaning, he doesn't have issues about it, or his body, or believes that some sexual acts are 'gay', someone who loves sex enough to be willing to explore all the different sides of it, even if it's things that other people consider freaky or gross. Plus, he would need a high threshold for pain. He couldn't be squeamish about hurting me either.

[Keraron]

I think she means differences in sexual preferences.

 

For example, I really need to be with someone who loves sex. Meaning, he doesn't have issues about it, or his body, or believes that some sexual acts are 'gay', someone who loves sex enough to be willing to explore all the different sides of it, even if it's things that other people consider freaky or gross. Plus, he would need a high threshold for pain. He couldn't be squeamish about hurting me either.

 

And what most people here posit is that it is impossible to know these things about each other unless you try?

[greywolf]

And what most people here posit is that it is impossible to know these things about each other unless you try?

 

Not impossible, but difficult. I could be with someone that says he's comfortable with all that stuff, but then when we actually get to it, he gets squeamish. What if we end up not being able to have the kind of sex we like because it hurts him too much. What if he turns out to be a horrible role-player and can't act out a good rape? Or if a guy's never had sex before, how will he know if he likes doing oral or not? There's a number of things that I'm not sure I'd like or not until I get to try it. What if I was with someone that said they really liked anal and I had never tried it? I wouldn't be able to tell them I was ok with it because for all I know, I could've hated it.

[Keraron]

Not impossible, but difficult. I could be with someone that says he's comfortable with all that stuff, but then when we actually get to it, he gets squeamish. What if we end up not being able to have the kind of sex we like because it hurts him too much. What if he turns out to be a horrible role-player and can't act out a good rape? Or if a guy's never had sex before, how will he know if he likes doing oral or not? There's a number of things that I'm not sure I'd like or not until I get to try it. What if I was with someone that said they really liked anal and I had never tried it? I wouldn't be able to tell them I was ok with it because for all I know, I could've hated it.

 

You're right on these, of course.

 

But my Love for him/her would trump all these as minor details...

[greywolf]

You're right on these, of course.

 

But my Love for him/her would trump all these as minor details...

 

Very understandable, but for some people it might not just be minor details.

[hexaemeron]

This is an individual choice, with individual motivations at play. Some people will want to wait because they believe it's important to know someone "fully" before taking that step. Some people wait because their religion/mythology compels them to do so. Some people wait because Mom and Dad told them sex was dirty and only for procreation.

 

Everyone has a brain and everyone has motivations and factors that are important to him/her. And everyone should have the right to make those choices for himself, as long as they don't take it to the next level of "I made this choice, and now, YOU MUST TOO or you're wrong."

 

Personally, if I met someone on a first date and he said "I'd like to wait at least two years until we have sex"... I hope he was wearing a seafood bib or something because I'm sure my Tom Collins-laden spit take leading into unmitigated cackling would probably be most... unpleasant.

 

Sex to me is just another way to learn about someone. Is he tender? Is he open? Caring? Giving? Energetic?

 

For me, I want as much information as I can have as soon as I can about someone. And it's always enjoyable to learn about someone, if you're just talking over a coffee or wrapped up into a heady pile of arms and legs, thrusting and braying like a fattie at Hometown Buffet.

[BriarRose]

Personally, if I met someone on a first date and he said "I'd like to wait at least two years until we have sex"... I hope he was wearing a seafood bib or something because I'm sure my Tom Collins-laden spit take leading into unmitigated cackling would probably be most... unpleasant.

Lol! For me, I would admire people who choose to wait - however, it's not something i could do (long term). Sex is too important a part of a relationship for me.

[Cognitive_Canine]

You're right on these, of course.

 

But my Love for him/her would trump all these as minor details...

 

You think that but you really don't know that about yourself until you are put into that position.

 

I never thought that we'd have the fights about sex that we did. If he hadn't been so open to change as he was, we would have broken up. It's rare to find someone who is capable of that change.

[Cognitive_Canine]

And why do you believe that you can't control in what direction it decides to shift/stay in? Isn't discipline a feature you acquire through personal growth, maturity? Don't you think commitment itself a type of discipline?

 

(Free will vs instincts)

 

It's the same as personality.

 

Could you be with someone who worked against your core needs in the personality of a partner (be with someone who disliked kids or had an unsettling sense of humour or didn't value family as much as you did)?

 

I could be with someone who didn't match my personality but I don't want to be. And I'd like to find out what kind of person they are now before marrying them.

[annie24]

I still have a problem understanding what sexual (in)compatibility means concretely and why it cannot be overcome.

 

You speak of active sex drive vs inhibited/prudish/etc.

 

Don't you think these depend on the time (life period), mood and ideology of the people involved?

 

I had a very good female friend (whom I was in love with, but didn't know at which level she reciprocated) who once tried to get intimate with me. On that day I was quite in a bad mood and didn't even understand what she wanted. I realized she wanted sex only months later... There was a communication problem. But labeling that as "sexual incompatibility" and using mere lack of sex as a reason for not committing to each other sounds gross.

Don't you think?

 

there are all sorts of sexual incompatibilities. some people want sex several times a day, and some people a few times a year is more than enough. they can 'compromise' by having sex once a week, but then both people are still unhappy, as neither is happy with that level of sex.

 

another example that comes to mind is that some people might have kinks or fetishes while others don't. someone might have a foot fetish, spanking, BDSM, diaper fetish, etc...... and unless the other partner is very very open, it might not work with the kinky partner and the vanilla partner.

[annie24]

You're right on these, of course.

 

But my Love for him/her would trump all these as minor details...

 

what if she wants to tie you up, put a diaper on you, and she wants to whip and make you lick her boots while she calls you a naughty boy. would you still think of this as a minor detail?

[Cognitive_Canine]

there are all sorts of sexual incompatibilities. some people want sex several times a day, and some people a few times a year is more than enough. they can 'compromise' by having sex once a week, but then both people are still unhappy, as neither is happy with that level of sex.

 

another example that comes to mind is that some people might have kinks or fetishes while others don't. someone might have a foot fetish, spanking, BDSM, diaper fetish, etc...... and unless the other partner is very very open, it might not work with the kinky partner and the vanilla partner.

 

My problem was something simple like initiating. His low self esteem made it hard for him to make the first move.

 

While I always initiate, I was rejected quite often. He said it wasn't rejection but I didn't see it as any different.

 

But, it was something we managed to work through were we didn't have to compromise. We both ended up getting what we wanted after we were on the same page. I don't think that many guys are that capable of change.

 

If you look on ENA, typically one partner doesn't even acknowledge there being a problem.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

The thing is, I have seen so many posts on this forum from people who thought they had their partner all figured out sexually..they sampled them, test drove them, broke them in or however you want to rationalize it (when the reality is more about just wanting sex and not wanting to wait for sex) and then after a few years the person they thought they understood sexually, suddenly became a completely different sexual being....didn't want sex anymore or became too sexually adventurous for their liking. You want sex then go for it...but to make the argument that you are having sex with someone in order to test drive them so that you will ensure a future of sexual compatibility is an argument that has blown up in many people's faces down the road.

[annie24]

The thing is, I have seen so many posts on this forum from people who thought they had their partner all figured out sexually..they sampled them, test drove them, broke them in or however you want to rationalize it (when the reality is more about just wanting sex and not wanting to wait for sex) and then after a few years the person they thought they understood sexually, suddenly became a completely different sexual being....didn't want sex anymore or became too sexually adventurous for their liking. You want sex then go for it...but to make the argument that you are having sex with someone in order to test drive them so that you will ensure a future of sexual compatibility is an argument that has blown up in many people's faces down the road.

 

yes, that happens. there are no guarantees in life. but still, you try to do your best to get to know a person before committing to them. otherwise, you may as well just pick a random name out of the hat and marry him.

 

you can say the same about anything else - maybe the woman who is a gym rat before marriage puts on 50 lbs and stops working out once she is married. and the guy wonders where his cute little wife went!!

[Cognitive_Canine]

The thing is, I have seen so many posts on this forum from people who thought they had their partner all figured out sexually..they sampled them, test drove them, broke them in or however you want to rationalize it (when the reality is more about just wanting sex and not wanting to wait for sex) and then after a few years the person they thought they understood sexually, suddenly became a completely different sexual being....didn't want sex anymore or became too sexually adventurous for their liking. You want sex then go for it...but to make the argument that you are having sex with someone in order to test drive them so that you will ensure a future of sexual compatibility is an argument that has blown up in many people's faces down the road.

 

The same can happen with personality. You talk to them, you spend time with them, you test drive them, broke them in or however you want to call it. And then a few years the person they thought they understood, suddenly becomes a completely different person...like they wanted different things or became someone else.

 

People change.

 

I'd still rather find out what kind of person they are now, and hope they don't change too much... Than wait until marriage and find out what kind of person they are. Waiting until marriage does not mean they are any less likely to change.

 

It's also nice to know that we have worked through these problems before and ended up happy. He acknowledged that there was a problem when it didn't really affect him. I think since we've already been through an issue like this and survived happily, it's a good indication of how we'll deal with future problems. Sex isn't stand alone. Our ability to communicate affects our sex life, our trust affects sex life. So, to go through a trial and come out on top, it not just adds to our sexual compatibility but strengthens the rest of our relationship (as it would if this was a conflict with another area of the relationship).

[renaissancewoman101]

People do change, whether before marriage, or even 20-30 years AFTER marriage. I guess that's human nature and we have to work with what we've got.

 

As someone once said, there is no guarantees in life.

 

One just tries to insure that those bad things don't happen.

[BellaDonna]

I still have a problem understanding what sexual (in)compatibility means concretely and why it cannot be overcome.

 

You speak of active sex drive vs inhibited/prudish/etc.

 

Don't you think these depend on the time (life period), mood and ideology of the people involved?

 

Yes, which is why I also stated:

 

 

How it will all play out really depends on both person's judgements and values. They need to be on the same page, regardless of which route they choose.

 

In my own personal situation, I met my husband very young and during our dating relationship we had premarital sex long before we ever talked of marriage. We ended up getting married, but that level of commitment (marriage) was not a priority until later. I do feel fortunate that he was my first, and only.

 

However, not all people feel the need to have a "one and only". How people exrpress themselves sexually is really a very personal choice and I would never expect others to have to share the sentiment.

yes, that happens. there are no guarantees in life. but still, you try to do your best to get to know a person before committing to them. otherwise, you may as well just pick a random name out of the hat and marry him.

 

I agree. I mean, what if you end up with a lover who doesn't care about your physical needs and that is not open to hearing what works for you? I'm not even meaning as far as having the same sex drive. They may have a similar sex drive to you, but that alone won't equal mutual pleasure. Once you are in bed- what if they just don't care if you enjoy it? I personally could never be in a situation like that no matter how much I loved the person or how great of friends we were beforehand. Aside from intimacy, for many people one of the goals of sex is getting off/physcial release. If your partner can't do that part for you (and won't learn) then you will have many years of frustration. That is another level of sexual incompatability.

[Keraron]

All of the arguments presented here lead me to one question:

How interdependent are Sex and Love?

What is the purpose of being in a relationship, or of love for that matter?

 

Can you imagine disentangling sex and love?

 

What strikes me is that in most pro-sex arguments, sex trumps love (i.e. even if you love someone, the relationship is not worth it if you can't have sexual satisfaction).

 

Someone asked how I would feel if my wife chained me, put diapers on, asked me to lick boots, etc. with all honesty: if I love her, I'd do anything for her. If she's chaste and has zero sex drive, I'd be fine with that, too. All for love.

All of this would make me compatible with any woman.

 

What I am trying to say is that I feel - for me at least - sex isn't decisive.

 

And this may be rooted in our different beliefs of what sex is. Is it a basic need, as in eating and drinking to survive? Or is it a leisure, or even a culturally imposed need (i.e. seeing many seminude women around of course arouses me!)?

 

I do feel the urge of having sex whenever I am constantly exposed to such cultural items (models, pornography, erotica, etc.) but I never feel as if I need it to survive, nor do I need it in order to love someone.

 

I personally can imagine sex without love, and also love without sex.

But I find it a bit "materialistic" to base the decision of one on the other.

 

To me it would be as if deciding to have a child or not depending on whether it will have blue eyes or not. For some people the blue eyes are essentially important, other people are entirely indifferent.

 

I am indifferent, but would like to understand why others care so much...

[annie24]

I am indifferent, but would like to understand why others care so much...

 

why do you care what others want so much? maybe some other men don't want to be put into diapers and lick boots? maybe that's not their idea of a fun time and it's not what they want to spend the rest of their lives doing? different strokes for different folks, right?

[Taikero]

I think that taking time before jumping into the sack together is important to establish a relationship based on mutual mental and emotional compatibility, but I think it is also important once you trust someone and feel attracted and connected to them in all the non-physical ways to take that next step and build your physical love and attraction together the same way you previously built the non-physical part of the relationship.

 

A relationship is definitely a three-legged stool in my eyes. If one of mental, emotional, and physical attractions aren't there or are compromised severely, the relationship wobbles and almost always collapses despite the best desperate efforts to balance it.

 

I think waiting for marriage is a poor idea simply because you're committing to loving something about that person you have absolutely no knowledge about or experience with. Would you consider that in any other aspect of the relationship? Would you take such a compromise elsewhere when deciding whether or not to marry someone? I don't know anyone reasonable who would consent to knowing anything less than everything there is to know about a person in other aspects of their life before marriage.

 

 

As to why I think the idea of waiting until marriage is attractive to some, I think that it sets a boundary you don't have to think much about, and it takes away a lot of internal conflict. You don't have to do the heavy lifting to decide when to get physical, because you've already made the choice not to until after you've married someone. From day one of any relationship formed this way, you commit to get to know a person fully on the inside, which is great, and you put less emphasis on hormones and physical attraction and compatibility, which admittedly can make things less complex from the standpoint of attraction based on non-physical matters of attraction. If it is hard for you to connect on an emotional or mental level with others, waiting for sex until after marriage or just before it could be key to succeeding in these difficult areas for you, but I digress.

 

 

Honestly, I think a far more reasonable limitation might be to wait until engagement. When you become engaged you acknowledge to the world you are exceedingly interested in pursuing a life with another person. I think it would be wise to use the period of engagement to determine if you as a couple are physically compatible to go along with your mental and emotional connections.

 

To each his or her own of course, I simply think waiting for marriage is horribly undercutting a key process in the full discovery of a person you choose to spend your life with, and that with a little self control you can still have sex before marriage without compromising the other levels of attraction and compatibility which are equally important to a lasting, committed, loving relationship.

[greywolf]

All of the arguments presented here lead me to one question:

How interdependent are Sex and Love?

What is the purpose of being in a relationship, or of love for that matter?

 

Can you imagine disentangling sex and love?

 

What strikes me is that in most pro-sex arguments, sex trumps love (i.e. even if you love someone, the relationship is not worth it if you can't have sexual satisfaction).

 

 

This argument would work if love was the only important thing in a relationship. Unfortunately, it isn't. You can love someone with all your heart, but that will not guarantee that your relationship will work out.

 

Someone asked how I would feel if my wife chained me, put diapers on, asked me to lick boots, etc. with all honesty: if I love her, I'd do anything for her. If she's chaste and has zero sex drive, I'd be fine with that, too. All for love.

All of this would make me compatible with any woman.

 

 

How would you feel then if your wife told you she wanted a threesome, or wanted to watch you be screwed in the ass by another man? What if she wanted to take you to a BDSM play party? What if she was into age play? What if she wanted to take a dump on your chest?

[BellaDonna]

This thread has run its course.