Men, Women, Emotions

[COtuner]

No exaggeration, lectures. For hours. Everything I said or thought or how I responded would lead to non stop psychoanalysis. I could do or say nothing right except "I love you" and sometimes I'd get, "Do you, really?" I have no idea why he was that way or what made it all start happening suddenly. He analyzed everyone, if it wasn't about me, I'd hear about him, a manager, someone he worked with, someone I worked with, my mother, his mother.... I had to have loved him or I could never have lived like that for so many years. But he didn't believe I loved him... whole other story there.

 

So I guess we can use my ex as the extreme side of sharing feelings, emotions and thoughts about things. VS the strong silent type on the other end?

[DN]

So I guess we can use my ex as the extreme side of sharing feelings, emotions and thoughts about things. VS the strong silent type on the other end?

The ideal is a balance - but finding that balance is very tricky. It can depend on the partner, the issue, when and where it is brought up, issues that the partner may have on their mind and so on - so many variables.

 

But - the point of the cartoon was that the guy's girlfriend asked him to open up - he did - and she was turned off. That wasn't, in my view, a question of balance. It was simply someone asking for something and not liking it when it was given.

[COtuner]

The ideal is a balance - but finding that balance is very tricky. It can depend on the partner, the issue, when and where it is brought up, issues that the partner may have on their mind and so on - so many variables.

 

But - the point of the cartoon was that the guy's girlfriend asked him to open up - he did - and she was turned off. That wasn't, in my view, a question of balance. It was simply someone asking for something and not liking it when it was given.

 

Hence the humor... yes, but the joke sort of goes to the "feelings" sort of thing instead of the open conversation thing, which is what a lot of us on the thread seem to take as being more important, if I'm understanding everyone to feel the same as I do?

[DN]

I think the vast majority of men reading the joke and subsequent thread will conclude that it is unwise to ever open up in any way to their partners about their emotions, feelings or any sort of related conversation. They will now believe that "open communication" is really best left as a one way street and they should listen and never talk.

[velvette]

my bf is also my bff and I wouldn't have it any other way. we're closest to each other than any other person, but this may have developed since we didn't have sex for the first couple years of dating, and all of our relationship was based on emotional intimacy.

 

I think the stereotypical guy is often forced into silence by what society expects of him. I read this huge book on men, and realized how hard it is to behave correctly in our society. from boyhood men are treated differently, have their emotions ignored. ie a little boy who cries at the first day of daycare will be shushed by his parents, having his feelings invalidated (ie his mom will laugh at him, tell him to go on, he'll get over it etc), but the little girl will be hugged and reassured. however, later men are supposed to understand and relate with their girlfriends' feelings, even as they've been told to ignore their own.

 

I'm not expressing myself very well but... that book made me realize how harsh I've been on my boyfriend. ie when I cried I expected him to comfort me, but if he cried I would be turned off and try to encourage him to 'man up'. (not anymore of course!)

[LBP]

I feel that I have been trained to maintain silence on all things emotional... Except for in the presence of my closest guy friends. It is there, often over a few beers, that I am most comfortable discussing my feelings. My mother, also. Father - hell, no! And never, not ever, with a lady friend. As far as I'm concerned, a non-related female is allowed access to my humor, my smile and my strength (what there is of it). When I'm weak, I hide it. When I'm sad, I smile. I have my avenues, but they are separate from my SO. That sounds pretty sick when thusly expressed...

 

Once upon a time, I believed differently. I like to think that I'm nominally a fairly independent person. The one time I let it all on the table, it had a negative result. As such, it now belongs to me and my friends; mostly me. My friends won't dump me. They are there through thick and thin. They have earned the right to hear about the real me. I have not met a woman about whom I could say the same.

[Knotty]

Women want their men to be a rock. They want the feeling of security. They don't want to find that their man is sometimes just as scared or confused by the world as they are. They'd rather him suck it up and not express his insecurities and continue the illusion.

 

I read recently that it's actually only in the last 100 years or so that grown men are expected to not cry. Before then it was quite natural and acceptable. I can't remember the reason they gave for why there was a change in attitude.

 

I want a woman that can accept my feelings, but I'll try not to overdue it with expressing my insecurities and fears.

[cl76]

Understand women's issues but don't act like one (ie. be a man).

[velvette]

^see, that's the dilemma. how can you understand something if you're banned from expressing it yourself? I think the genders should be equal in expression: there is no 'correct way' for either gender to act. I now encourage my boyfriend to cry, and I'm honored that he'd let his guard down enough to do so in front of me.

[tiredofvampires]

I think the vast majority of men reading the joke and subsequent thread will conclude that it is unwise to ever open up in any way to their partners about their emotions, feelings or any sort of related conversation. They will now believe that "open communication" is really best left as a one way street and they should listen and never talk.

 

The one time I let it all on the table, it had a negative result. As such, it now belongs to me and my friends; mostly me. My friends won't dump me. They are there through thick and thin. They have earned the right to hear about the real me. I have not met a woman about whom I could say the same.

 

And this is precisely why I feel I'm going against the grain in this thread.

 

I find it interesting that men are hinting here that they have been humiliated and emasculated into silence -- and yet, no one seems to be saying, "As a man, I feel I should have a right to express myself." Men on this thread are perhaps seeing the inequality of women being allowed to freely express themselves, and noticing that hypocrisy exists for some women who want their cake (an expressive man) and to eat it too (for him to be "man enough" to not express himself)...and yet, where is the outcry? I don't see any.

 

The men on this thread seem to accept their lot, even while tacitly agreeing it's really not that great of a deal they've got. In fact, it's a bit of a raw deal.

 

The OP himself, while appearing to decry this state of affairs, himself, seems almost to defend the dynamic.

 

And for the most part, I don't hear any sort of major objection to this dynamic from women.

 

I just think if men can't express themselves because they've been indoctrinated not to, it's a travesty. And even more so that they wouldn't even want a woman to want it to be otherwise.

 

I now encourage my boyfriend to cry, and I'm honored that he'd let his guard down enough to do so in front of me.

 

You said it! I consider it an honor for a person to let down their guard. I don't feel honored and impressed by the idea that someone wouldn't trust me with their innermost feelings.

[COtuner]

Well, I'd have to disagree. I have seen men cry when their dogs have died, my ex cried when we broke up (and when he was begging me not to leave), my father has cried at least twice that I can think of in front of me (not counting pretending not to tear up at really sad movies). I think women have a LOT more estrogen that inspires us to cry at more inopportune times than men do - testosterone does not lead to responding to a serious emotional event with tears but rather anger and frustration. Most of the time I cry at ridiculous and unexpected times because my hormones are all over the place - I was FURIOUS at something and started crying instead of cussing. I would be seriously freaked out if the guys I liked started doing that.

[BellaDonna]

Well, I'd have to disagree. I have seen men cry when their dogs have died, my ex cried when we broke up (and when he was begging me not to leave), my father has cried at least twice that I can think of in front of me (not counting pretending not to tear up at really sad movies). I think women have a LOT more estrogen that inspires us to cry at more inopportune times than men do - testosterone does not lead to responding to a serious emotional event with tears but rather anger and frustration. Most of the time I cry at ridiculous and unexpected times because my hormones are all over the place - I was FURIOUS at something and started crying instead of cussing. I would be seriously freaked out if the guys I liked started doing that.

 

I think little boys are also discouraged from crying by their environment, starting at a younger age. They are encouraged to be "tough" because they are boys.

 

I've actually had people tell my son to "stop acting like a little girl" when he cried- he's not even 2 yet. I was FURIOUS and I said something right back to them. Luckily the people who said it were ignorant relatives that we see maybe once a year.

[DN]

I find it interesting that men are hinting here that they have been humiliated and emasculated into silence -- and yet, no one seems to be saying, "As a man, I feel I should have a right to express myself." Men on this thread are perhaps seeing the inequality of women being allowed to freely express themselves, and noticing that hypocrisy exists for some women who want their cake (an expressive man) and to eat it too (for him to be "man enough" to not express himself)...and yet, where is the outcry? I don't see any.

 

I find it interesting that when men don't do what women want them to do they use words like 'immature' or, in this case, 'emasculated' and 'humiliated'. I often wonder why.

 

It has nothing to do with those things. It is just enlightening on this thread for men to realise that despite what some women say they want - they won't like it when they get it.

[velvette]

I think little boys are also discouraged from crying by their environment, starting at a younger age. They are encouraged to be "tough" because they are boys.

 

I've actually had people tell my son to "stop acting like a little girl" when he cried- he's not even 2 yet. I was FURIOUS and I said something right back to them. Luckily the people who said it were ignorant relatives that we see maybe once a year.

 

you said it! and well done putting them into place. ugh. >_

my boyfriend naturally cries more than me. he's had a tougher life, and I'm more of a happy person in general. sometimes he gets sad memories. I used to be turned off by this, and he stopped crying in front of me for a while (because he felt humiliated), and I *was relieved* for that time. but then I realized what I was doing and came to accept that guys can and will cry as often as they want, and SHOULD be able to.

 

now he cries in my arms again and I've learned to never make him feel wrong for doing so. it's just a different way of thinking, and it's very freeing.

[stella74]

I want a woman that can accept my feelings, but I'll try not to overdue it with expressing my insecurities and and fears.

 

I think that's wise whether you're a man or a woman. Accepting and verbalizing feelings is very important in a relationship, but not to the point that COtuner had to deal with.

 

I just think if men can't express themselves because they've been indoctrinated not to, it's a travesty.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I've also observed what BellaDonna refers to and it's so sad. Men should be encouraged to be open and to cry. Just to clarify, when I made the remark about getting turned off when my ex-fiance cried, it wasn't because he was crying - it was because of what he was crying about. There's a big difference.

 

And I think that goes to the heart of the cartoon. It's great to be open and vulnerable, but it really is unhealthy to expect your partner to be your therapist. The man in the cartoon wasn't doing this per se, but that's one of the problems it brings up.

 

I find it interesting that when men don't do what women want them to do they use words like 'immature' or, in this case, 'emasculated' and 'humiliated'. I often wonder why.

 

It has nothing to do with those things. It is just enlightening on this thread for men to realise that despite what some women say they want - they won't like it when they get it

 

I don't understand this DN...what do you mean? I don't think this is what any of the women on this thread are saying.

[DN]

The problem that I see for many men in reading this thread is that there are too many 'shades or grey' to be able to make any sense of it. There are so many variations in the responses as to make them nugatory. It's no good saying to a man "be open with your emotions and feelings" and then setting restrictions and limitations as to how and when he should do this and what the subject matter should be - especially post facto. How is a man to judge what his particular partners limitations are? Better to not say anything at all.

 

Even on this thread - if men on here say how they feel about saying how they feel - words like 'emasculated' and 'humiliated' are thrown into the mix.

[stella74]

^ Well, I think things vary by individual. As you can see, different women are comfortable with different levels of emotional disclosure and intensity. I think it's better to talk about what each person wants and expects in terms of communication than not to say anything at all!

[DN]

^ Well, I think things vary by individual. As you can see, different women are comfortable with different levels of emotional disclosure and intensity. I think it's better to talk about what each person wants and expects in terms of communication than not to say anything at all!

How would that conversation actually take place? How many women would be prepared to say to a man "I like a man to be open with his feelings and emotions but with limitations: And here is a list of what I find acceptable subjects annotated with the degree of intensity with which I am comfortable. Here is another list of things you should keep to yourself"

[tiredofvampires]

I used the words "emasculated" and "humiliated" in sympathy, DN -- and because those were the best words I could come up with. Because "emasculated" goes with the suggestion that a man is being "unmanly", is a sissy, as BellaDonna said, to "stop acting like a girl" -- to me, these are emasculating kinds of comments. And I don't see why I'd even have to explain why that would be humiliating. The woman in the cartoon humiliated him for opening up by telling him he was a turn-off, telling a man that he's a turn-off for showing emotion or crying would be humiliating, anything in this whole thread about a man doing what he's not "supposed to" and making him feel bad would be in my mind humiliating. The emasculating part relating more to his "proper, expected" gender behavior.

 

Somehow I get the feeling you take exception to the use of these words as though they reinforce the double-standard on this thread, and now I am wondering why. Because I've done nothing on this thread but say that a double standard shouldn't exist.

 

I've also said that I would not be the kind of woman to dictate where some "limit" should be to what a guy gets to talk about. Sky's the limit, as far's I'm concerned. I don't have a "well, you can talk about this, but not that; you can emote about this but not that; be expressive but TO THIS POINT and then, that's too much." I've been protesting that in this thread.

 

With the exception of COturner's boyfriend, who isn't just an extreme of showing emotion, but I see that as more of a problem in just relating in a mutual and reciprocal fashion and being attuned to the other person. And letting life be lived without creating drama out of everything. I mean, if he had been a best friend to her (she said he wasn't -- and by contrast, that's what I say I want in a boyfriend), he would have cared about his impact on her, listened to her issues, cared about her "personal life" (her words), and not doing that goes further than just being an expressive man, that's being in your own world spinning on your own axis. That's crazy-making, so I don't blame COturner for having an allergy to a man wanting to talk about feelings now.

 

Of all the scenarios on this thread involving couples, velvette's is the one I feel I'd like to have as a couple most of all. And no where in there is she saying she's asking him to draw a line and limit himself, DN. So I support that.

[DN]

I just don't think those words are either accurate or necessary in the context of the thread. It isn't emasculating to feel that since there are obviously many different standards among women as to what they want from their partners about this issue that the best thing to do is just revert to expectations that men are uncommunicative - take the default position.

But if a man states that, or something like it, only for someone to say he must feel emasculated or humiliated, puts a connotation on his opinion that isn't likely to encourage him to post anything.

 

Speaking for myself - I say what I want to say about anything including how I feel. And if people don't like it they can deal with it in their own way. But the stereotypical man who is inhibited from expressing himself is unlikely to lose those inhibitions after reading this thread.

[stella74]

How would that conversation actually take place? How many women would be prepared to say to a man "I like a man to be open with his feelings and emotions but with limitations: And here is a list of what I find acceptable subjects annotated with the degree of intensity with which I am comfortable. Here is another list of things you should keep to yourself"

 

I had to laugh at this, but actually a less strident, rigid form of that conversation would be healthy. You can feel free to communicate however you want to and to say whatever you want. But if it's hurting your SO, is that what you want? If you're emotionally overwhelming her, is that what you want? I don't put limits on anyone's communication, but I will say when I feel uncomfortable with what is said or how it is said. And then I hope that my SO will be sensitive enough to this, as I am to him.

[stella74]

But the stereotypical man who is inhibited from expressing himself is unlikely to lose those inhibitions after reading this thread.

 

I hope not DN. That would really be too bad.

[DN]

I had to laugh at this, but actually a less strident, rigid form of that conversation would be healthy. You can feel free to communicate however you want to and to say whatever you want. But if it's hurting your SO, is that what you want? If you're emotionally overwhelming her, is that what you want? I don't put limits on anyone's communication, but I will say when I feel uncomfortable with what is said or how it is said. And then I hope that my SO will be sensitive enough to this, as I am to him.

I understand the intent - I just don't see how you could, in terms, tell him that. To be preemptive would be condescending, to bring it up in the middle of him telling you what his emotions are would be devastating and to bring it up afterwards would be difficult to accomplish without shutting down further communication.

 

It's the actual words you would use in what circumstance that I am interested in seeing.

 

As an example I don't put limits on anyone's communication, but I will say when I feel uncomfortable with what is said or how it is said. surely this is contradictory. By saying what you are uncomfortable with must surely place a restriction - how could it not?

[tiredofvampires]

So as I'm understanding you, DN, you're saying that telling a man that he might feel emasculated is....emasculating to him.

 

 

 

(I would have to disagree with you that it's a wrong word choice, but feel free to offer a better one.)

 

But the stereotypical man who is inhibited from expressing himself is unlikely to lose those inhibitions after reading this thread.

 

Yeah, to ditto Stella, that would blow. Though I'm getting the feeling that a lot of stereotypical men have become complicit with their indoctrination to the point that they would pride themselves in their "inhibitions". At least that's the feeling I'm getting from this thread.

 

And if I'm wrong, well, here's a shout out to the men who would like to express themselves more but feel they can't for fear of recrimination: HERE I AM AND I'M SINGLE AND WANT YOU TO LOOK MY WAY!! hee hee

[DN]

Instead of 'emasculating' and 'humiliating' I would suggest 'confusing' and 'discouraging' would be more accurate.

 

Though I'm getting the feeling that a lot of stereotypical men have become complicit with their indoctrination to the point that they would pride themselves in their "inhibitions". At least that's the feeling I'm getting from this thread.

I find it interesting that when men do express an opinion on such matters it is somehow tiurned around so as to be their fault. No man suggested they are proud of this - just that it is easier because so many women are not consistent.