Opposite Sex Friendships

[backsplash]

Not sure where to post since it involves trust, communciation (or lack thereof) and my weakness-jealousy.

My boyfriend, who i love dearly, would like to visit his friend, his friend LIz. He has knows her since grammar school. She just had her second child and has been asking him to see the baby. he wants to bring the baby a gift Thursday and talk with her a while. We are not sure if her husband will be home?

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. I feel silly even posting, but I never dated anyone who had friends of the opposite sex and well, this is all new to me.

Anyway, she is married, has a home and two kids. he made the plan with her while I was in the room and said he'd like me to come. unortunately, after he made the plan, I remembered an appt. I have and am not able to change. i asked if he could postpone until next week and he is really mad at me. he didn't understand why he can't go alone and I ended up blurting out all this tuff about not wanting him to ever spend time with someone of the opp. sex unless i got to know her first. I then asked why the heck he couldn't just make friends with guys.

In all honety, i dont think he would cheat on me-physically, but I do know that he gravtates to females more than males-not going out alone or talking on the phone constantly-he doesn't really do that with anyone...but I am uncomfortable and wodnering why my gut feels so strong about this.

 

Sorry to bring up something that is probably trivial to most poeple, but this issue is really new for me and I;ve never come on this forum without ending up with some great advice. Thanks so much1

[Circe]

Ok so - I'm surprised you havent been out with anyone who has friends of the opposite sex before!!

 

Look, I have lunches (alone) with friends of the opposite sex every now and then. If it bothered my husband, I'd have him come with me every time - or not go. It would be an unnecessary worry on his part, but I'd understand and accept that everyone is human, everyone feels insecure sometimes or jealous - and I care about him enough to just make the situation easier on him.

 

He has female friends too. He always asks me to come if he catches up with them. If I couldnt go on one occasion I'd be happy for him to go alone.

 

BUT I think it's totally reasonable that if you gut is telling you "no, this doesnt feel right" (whether or not that's just because you arent used to opposite sex friendships or whether there something more that's getting your senses going) - then he should wait until you can go together.

 

There's NO reason why he can't wait another week and it's unreasonable for him to get angry over this.

 

A while ago, a (male) friend of mine from uni who has started taking a photography course asked me if I would sit for him for an assignment he has where he needs to take portrait shots of someone. Without thinking about it, I told him "sure, of course - just tell me when". Then I told my husband about it and I could tell he was uncomfortable with the idea. So I told my friend "sorry, I think H is a bit uncomfortable about that so I have to retract - apologies!". My friend understood and said "next time I'll ask my single friends only!"

 

This stuff is fine. In an ideal world noone would be jealous of their partner - noone would be insecure and noone would cheat. But we take the world we have - which is not ideal - we decide whats reasonable and what isnt and make comrpomises.

 

I think you are being totally reasonable asking him to wait.

[Sn0man]

He invited you. You are busy and not able to go when he's already made plans to go. He made those plans right in front of you. She's married.

 

You then proceed to tell him you never want him to spend time with anyone of the opp sex unless you know them? Then you go so far as to snark at him about making 'guy friends'? You don't see a problem with this??

 

I'd be mad as all hell.

 

I don't see the problem, unless you're just really, really, really untrusting. That will cause problems....Big ones.

[DN]

I do not think you are being reasonable and that you have put him in a very awkward position. Basically you are saying that you think he is of such low character and morals that he would cheat on you - and that his friend is of such a low character that she would cheat on her husband. So you have insulted both him and his friend.

 

Added to that you now want him to either lie to his friend or admit that the reason he wants to change the date is because you don't trust either of them.

 

It's quite clear that he has no intention of cheating and that he was just catching up with an old friend - otherwise you would not have known about it or been invited.

 

I think you owe him an apology. If i were him I would be questioning whether I wanted to be with someone who didn't trust me and thought I was capable of cheating. I don't blame him for being mad and think you may have done a lot of damage to your relationship.

[servedcold]

You may consider approaching him as saying the situation caught you off guard, and that because you haven't had experience with this kind of thing before, that you may have overreacted, also that you didn't mean some of the things you said, and again, were caught off guard.

 

It's pretty easy to tell legitimate opposite sex friends of SOs.

 

1. They want you to meet them and befriend them also.

2. They have known them for a long time and especially if there has never been any romance between the two.

3. They do things for them, and vice versa, that are what real friends do for each other, such as take baby gifts.

 

If the above aren't present, you have every right to tell them to nix the "friend" as they are backburnered romantic prospects and not true friends.

[Circe]

It's not what she's saying at all. In fact she's said clearly that she doesn't think he'd cheat on her. Perhaps all she is saying that she believes that certain forms of behaviour (like two people of the opposite sex who have a history - even a "just friends" history - spending time alone together - married or not - is putting yourself in a situation that could be the first step down a slippery slope).

 

It's only an insult if you take a defensive approach to it. Is it really such a big deal for him to change this appointment by delaying it a week so they can both go together???

 

People make "trust" into something it's not. Everybody is apparently capable of cheating. No matter who. You're supposed to avoid it by putting up certain boundaries as to how you relate with others and not relaxing those boundaries. This is just about them negotiating what boundaries are ok for them.

 

She's not saying "you can't have friends of the opposite sex". She's not saying "you can never hang out alone with a friend of the opposite sex". She's saying before you hang out alone with a friend of the opposite sex, I want it to be someone I know a little bit first so that I can feel comfortable with it.

 

It shouldnt have to be that big a deal.

[DN]

The only reason to be concerned about a partner being alone with member of the opposite sex is if you distrust them, no matter what anyone might say to the contrary - because otherwise why should it be a problem any more than being alone with someone of the same sex?

 

It's the same as when someone says "I trust my partner but I don't trust other women/men". If you trust your partner it doesn't matter what these other men or women do to attract the partner because he or she is trustworthy.

 

People aren't stupid and they know that objecting to them being alone with a member of the other sex is in fact all about trust or lack of it - despite claims to the contrary.

 

Is it really such a big deal for him to change this appointment by delaying it a week so they can both go together???

So yes, it is a big deal - because, as I said before, it is an insult to even insinuate that her boyfriend needs her to chaperone him in case he cheats on her.

 

It's not what she's saying at all. In fact she's said clearly that she doesn't think he'd cheat on her. Perhaps all she is saying that she believes that certain forms of behaviour (like two people of the opposite sex who have a history - even a "just friends" history - spending time alone together - married or not - is putting yourself in a situation that could be the first step down a slippery slope).

The bolded statements are contradictory.

[Circe]

DN, that's just not true. It's not that you think your partner intends to go out and cheat and hurt you.

 

It's that you know that anyone, you and your partner included, can wind up in a situation like that, cheating on you emotionally or otherwise, by putting themselves in certain situations.

 

Research on infidelity shows (according to that book "Not just friends" - which is based on studies of hundreds of psychologists and their clients) that there's no "type" who cheats - anyone is capable of it - and it all comes down to setting boundaries and respecting them.

 

Some boundaries are unreasonably difficult and unfair to stick to. It's up to each couple to decide what works for them..

 

But basically sitting down with someone of the opposite sex and having a one-on-one conversation in this context can lead to - both people sharing their recent accomplishments, both people sharing things about their family life, both people sharing things about troubles on their mind, both people sharing things about difficulties in their respective marriages etc.

 

All very innocently.

 

But it opens a window to each other that can potentially lead to an inappropriate emotional investment.

 

So I suppose what I meant by the first bold statement is that she doesnt think her husband intends to cheat on her - but doesnt want him to put himself in a situation where things change and cheating becomes tempting.

 

OP - I'd let him go - but if you'd feel more comfortable meeting her also then I think he should just understand why and even if it is a bit annoying, convenience wise - deal with it. But thats just my opinion and ultimately, if you arent both happy with living like that it won't work for you. If he thinks that's too strong a boundary then I guess you have a choice here.. one option is finding someone who actually has no problem with what you are asking. Seems drastic... but unless you find someone who can understand/accept that you'll have trouble in the future and he'll resent your standards.

 

If you just let him do what he wants to do when you arent really comfortable with it you'll resent him and it will create problems from your end anyway.

 

So either you should look into changing your own expectations and insecurity etc or find someone who is on the same wavelength..

[backsplash]

Thank you all so much for the feedback; it is diverse and gives me tons to think about. I don't think he minds my not trusting him as much as he worries about my being controlling. He told me last night that he doesn't like being told what to do; that he wont be the kind of husband that asks permissiont o wipe his butt. And that my reaction to this situation has him feeling like I may be too controlling.

 

I think my reaction to him was probably a strong one. I would have liked to be a little calmer when I told him my viewpoint. Looking at all that has been suggested, I wish I could've have told my BF what my stance is on opp.sex friendships and asked if he could wait for me. I tend to cry alot when I see he is getting my point, and then I just don't let things go.

 

But all in all i still feel the same way as when I posted.

 

I agree Indigo-I don't think there is atype that cheats. And I don't think that opp sex friendships are the same as same sex-you don't develop attraction and the same kind of intimacy as you do with someone of opp. sex-so i don;t know why ppl use that as reasoning to keep close contact with opp sex while in a relationship of ones one.

 

As far as expcecting himt to lie to his friend or tell her that I don't want then to be alone-well, to be honest I don't even know her yet. I really don't care what he tells her-thats his choice. Strongly stated but true. If he has to tell her I'd like to meet with them and can't until next week so be it. If he chooses to lie-thats pretty sad in my eyes-then thats his choice.

 

I'm thinking that since my ebing present when they meet is so important to me, then maybe I should see if my plans can change in any way. I'd be happy to be there with the two of them, and he wouldn't haev to cancel his plans. This choice wouldn't help us solve this boundary issue thing we have though, it may just avoiding continuous arguing over this particular situation.

[backsplash]

I can't help wondering if more women see my perspective than men...is this just an insecurity we have? Or are their guys that get my perspective too?

[servedcold]

As someone who has many real female friends, will be surprised if the boundary you are choosing doesn't cause some serious ongoing problems in your relationship. Most people have legitimate friends of the opposite sex, and will expect their SO to accept their real friends without stringently vetting them every time.

 

If your BF seeks advice on this from third parties, he will likely be told near unanimously that you are being quite controlling and unreasonable, as it is very easy to distinguish legitimate friends of the opposite sex from pseudo friends, and every indication you have is that your BF's friend is legitimate, and not in any way a threat to your relationship.

 

IMO, if you want to continue a healthy, resentment-free relationship with your BF, you should reevaluate your position.

 

EDIT: And no, it isn't something women would sympathize with more. Men very commonly have to deal with whole fleets of fake friends that their GF is keeping around for attention, usually these male friends are exes, prior FWBs and men who have been chasing her for years sometimes, not real friends. Many women will insist on keeping in frequent contact with such "friends," and will call their BFs jealous or controlling if he makes an issue of it. Saying again, it is easy to tell the difference between real friends and fake, the real friends should be showered with charm and befriended, and the fake ones should go away.

[Rose21]

I only have ONE friend of the opposite sex.

 

Honestly, most of the guys I've been friends with I've either had feelings for before the friendship started (or interested) or the feelings developed soon there after. Even when I was with someone, although I would never act on them.

 

I've been with my LTB for 14 months, and only have ONE male friend.

 

We've been friends for 2.5 years, and through out when I was single, taken, or on the rebound, my feelings for him have never changed from the platonic brother like relationship we have. I look at him as an older brother.

 

For awhile, I wasn't hanging out with him alone for my boyfriend's sake. But me, him, and my boyfriend have hung out quite a bit together, and my boyfriend has grown to be friends with him, and see how we are JUST friends.

 

We don't hang out extremly often, but he does pick me up from school usualy once a week, and we may go out to the hookah lounge or just walk around shops and get coffee and talk.

 

Of course we don't do things like go out to dinner, or see a movie together. That's just wrong.

 

But he does pick me up from school sometimes, and after we may hang out for a little bit. Where that be either grabbing coffee, walking around the shopping center, or getting together with other friends and just chilling. All of this is in a public place.

 

Just last week he even bought me a shirt, it was an early birthday present and he new I was dying to get it but didn't have the money because I'm a poor college student and still on the hunt for a job since I got laid off.

 

My boyfriend doesn't have any friends that are girls, but he understands how I am with my friend. Neither of us would give our numbers out to members of the opposite sex or hang out with them one on one. That's just wrong. I only keep the friend I've had before, and would be okay with him keeping any long term PLATONIC female friends he had before.

 

But not exes, or making new friends.

 

Both me and my friend always talk about our love lifes. I'll go on about my boyfriend all the time, and he'll bring up the new girls he's been talking to or when he thinks a girl is "hot" Lol I'm totaly just one of the guys to him (although he does find me very attractive, he doesn't feel anything like that for me other then friendship) And I think of him as the older brother I've never had.

[DN]

You can't (in logic) have it both ways. You can't say you trust someone not to cheat but don't want them to put themselves in a position where they might cheat. It doesn't make sense. Either you trust them or you don't.

 

And to insist that you accompany them in case they feel tempted is both distrusting and controlling. If my wife or I had ever insisted on such a thing our marriage would not have lasted as long as it has.

 

This is like some nineteenth century world where single women were never allowed to be alone with a man in case she was 'compromised'. It was demeaning then and it is now. Treat your partner as an adult and not as some impulsive child who can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar if not watched all the time.

[Sn0man]

As someone who has many real female friends, will be surprised if the boundary you are choosing doesn't cause some serious ongoing problems in your relationship. Most people have legitimate friends of the opposite sex, and will expect their SO to accept their real friends without stringently vetting them every time.

I agree with servedcold here. I have way more female friends than I have male friends, just because I enjoy their company better and always have - they're fun!

 

I still think you're just asking for trouble feeling the way you do about him seeing his LONG time friend without you. I really don't see what the big deal is. Honestly, if I was with someone who threw this at me (not allowed to see my female friends without them/not trusting me/controlling me) I would definitely choose my friend over that person and it would be good riddance to you!

 

I'd stop worrying about him and start worrying about your own issues here before they ruin your relationship with this guy.

[sparkles4]

Backsplash, I agree with others that you're outta line. If one of my good friends had a baby and my SO refused to let me visit them alone, despite my having made the plans in front of them and invited me to come along, I'd be kind of annoyed and begin to wonder about the strength of my relationship. If my SO can't trust me to visit an old friend on my own, what else won't I be trusted to do? Either I must be a highly untrustworthy individual, or my SO has some serious trust issues to work through before our relationship should go any further.

[Circe]

I can't help wondering if more women see my perspective than men...is this just an insecurity we have? Or are their guys that get my perspective too?

 

Just a guess.. but I suspect that anyone who has been the slightest bit affected by infidelity in their lives will understand the insecurity whereas others won't. I'm only saying that because before I had a boyfriend who - shall we say, forced my eyes open to this issue - I had an enormously idealistic view about what trust was and meant and how important it was. I had a very idealistic view about male/female friendships.

 

After I had my own experience with infidelity (not as the one committing it btw!) - and then read so much about the topic to try and understand - my views changed quite drastically and what I once thought of as "unreasonable" I now no longer do.

 

Ultimately, if it's about this situation or just later for the long term - you need to form some common understanding/agreement about whats acceptable and whats not. You can both compromise on this but the end result has to be something that, being true to youself, you can genuinely live with. Otherwise more issues are just a matter of time away.

 

I havent come accross a situation where I've had to say "I don't feel comfortable with you doing that" to my husband yet - but before he got married I asked him to read "not just friends" - which isn't the best book, but gives a reasonable understanding of why boundaries are important. Not that he didnt know that stuff himself - but I wanted to make sure that he was aware of all the things my mind's thought through as well.

[DN]

I think it is wise to learn from experience - both good and bad. But I do not think it is wise to project one person's bad behaviour on to a subsequent partner. It is both unfair and counter-productive. Nor is it fair to ask that partner to change their behaviour to accommodate that past experience, at least not to the extent that it means they could lose or adversely affect friendships, careers or outside interests.

 

No one should have to pay for another persons wrongdoing in such a way. People are not all the same and even if they are tempted they can still have the moral fortitude to remember their marriage vows and resist. If they cannot then there is a fortune to be made selling chastity belts.

[Circe]

You can't (in logic) have it both ways. You can't say you trust someone not to cheat but don't want them to put themselves in a position where they might cheat. It doesn't make sense. Either you trust them or you don't.

 

And to insist that you accompany them in case they feel tempted is both distrusting and controlling. If my wife or I had ever insisted on such a thing our marriage would not have lasted as long as it has.

 

This is like some nineteenth century world where single women were never allowed to be alone with a man in case she was 'compromised'. It was demeaning then and it is now. Treat your partner as an adult and not as some impulsive child who can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar if not watched all the time.

 

It's a point in time.. you can trust someone right now not to cheat - but to say you trust someone at all times in the future no matter what happens in the future is really idealistic and.. weird, isnt it? If you accept that anyone is capable of it in the right circumstances, anyway.

 

I think opening up an emotional window to someone of the opposite sex - and then widening it slowly over time - can put anyone in the position of being tempted in the future. So worrying about that seems not unreasonable to me.

 

And DN - so many "adults" fail to live up to the promise of being forever faithful. Do we just ignore that? Do we blame them or see them as somehow inferior human beings to ourselves and our partner? Or do we just accept that we are all susceptible to it so "trusting" anyone unconditionally is .. doesn't make sense. You can hope your partner will always do the right thing every time.. but when infidelity is something that can creep up bit by bit.. the result of a gradual widening of an emotional window ... "trust" becomes faith or belief but it can't be certainty. It can't be concrete knowledge that they won't ever do the wrong thing by you. Everyones human.

 

Several years ago - when I was single, I worked in this company. I was new and it was in a different State so I didnt know many people. There was a man there who had been there for many years. He was extremely standoffish with everyone else. People assumed he was horribly unfriendly and scary.

 

Over time, we developed a friendship. He was married with a small kid. The friendship started because he was writing an article for a professional journal and I made a comment about a relevant issue and from that point in time - he just kept paying attention to me (when he won't even make eye contact with anyone else in the company even when he walked past them in the corridors). Eventually he'd ask me to lunch occasionally. Sometimes in a group, sometimes alone. Eventually, it became lunch every day.

 

I thought we were good friends. What I really, really, really liked about him was his absolute devotion to his wife. I could see the difference between how he treated his wife and how he treated the rest of the world. I'd just gotten out of a relationship (very recent) where I'd been cheated on and it had ripped my world apart - so seeing this man be totally devoted to his wife to the absence of all else just completely moved me. Gave me faith again.

 

I didnt for a second consider that having lunch with him every day, alone, and developing this friendship was wrong. I wasn't the least bit sexually attracted to him.

 

In the end - he tried to kiss me. He was always socially awkward so it literally came out of nowhere. Given the history I'd just had - I felt devastated. I told him to never speak to me again and to leave me alone. He wouldnt. So I called his wife. I was in tears. I told her what had happened. Told her to talk to her husband.

 

He didn't hate me for it. He actually thanked me for it - eventually. They seem to have gotten over it. They've had another child. I know - without any doubt - that he always loved his wife to death. I know he's a good man. I don't know why he did it - but I do now very much believe that the best of men, who love their wife, can do the wrong thing if they open up an emotional window with someone of the opposite sex.

 

So I just dont think that life, love and relationships are as simple as the notion of trust would have us believe.

[Circe]

I think it is wise to learn from experience - both good and bad. But I do not think it is wise to project one person's bad behaviour on to a subsequent partner. It is both unfair and counter-productive. Nor is it fair to ask that partner to change their behaviour to accommodate that past experience, at least not to the extent that it means they could lose or adversely affect friendships, careers or outside interests.

 

No one should have to pay for another persons wrongdoing in such a way. People are not all the same and even if they are tempted they can still have the moral fortitude to remember their marriage vows and resist. If they cannot then there is a fortune to be made selling chastity belts.

 

I agree with that. And the thing is DN, in my own life, I do trust my partner. I'd let him pretty much do anything he wants because he's a bit of a puritan at heart. I just can't even imagine him hurting me. And at some level I do believe there are choices involved. It's not uncontrollable.

 

But whenever I hear a woman feeling insecure my heart always completely goes out to her and I feel like I understand.

 

But you are absolutely right - it would be cruel and crazy to punish your partner. They have to genuinely be ok with whatever your standards are - or it just doesn't work.