Clubbing and not Pulling

[Mace]

So I'm just getting into the clubbing scene and I'm noticing a clear trend here in the venues I frequent - Toronto area nightclubs populated by college kids.

 

The girls will be dancing in a circle with their girlfriends, surrounded by a wall of guys. Eventually a few guys muster enough balls - abetted by liquid courage - to hit the dance floor. Only to get haplessly shot down by girl after girl. Some will resort to haplessly dancing the night away with their male buddy.

 

Worse, there are few opportunities to hone my game; there are few open sets because all the girls are on the dance floor. One set my buddy and I attempted to open resulted in the girl calling me "rude" for interrupting their conversation, and she stormed off pulling her friend to the dance floor with her.

 

I'd always imagined dance clubs as places where girls came in, entertained suitors by the bar, and danced the night away with a few good charming prospects, with the potential to escalate to something more. Yet I don't see any of that.

 

I see more girls dancing with girls than I see dancing with guys. The white couches in the lounge are vacant - because nobody's making out.

 

Night after night I see the same dynamic; well-dressed, good-looking guys going home alone or with other guys, and packs of girls going home together, gaggling away with their girlfriends. And keep in mind this is in a venue populated by HB5-HB7s - (the male equivalent of HB5-7 stay home). I'd go so far as to say that one can stack up the girls and guys in these joints, and the average guy would be better looking than the average girl.

 

What's wrong here? Aren't girls looking to meet new guys and hooking up? Or are girls just going to dance? Is it the girls or is it the guys?

 

Are male-female social/mating dynamics in 2009 just so askew? Were clubs like this in the 70s/80s/90s?

[Casey13]

You may be a nice guy and so may be your friends but if you really closely pay attention to what the majority of these guys who hit on these girls say you will hear lines such as: "hey nice azss" "wanna make out?" "nice " among others similar things and many of these guys also brush themselves or touch these girls without giving it a second thought. Over time girls who frequent these clubs develop a defense mechanism to any guy that approaches them and start believing that most guys in such places are drunk jerks, which in a way is the truth considering the way these college kids act after pounding back one too many shots. So with that said, girls will be girls and still crave the admiration so they will dress up all hot and sexy and go to these places and appreciate being eyed by all these males but automatically assume that all these guys in there are nothing but a bunch of drunk inadequates therefore turning all down regardless of how approached.

[JadedStar]

^^ Well casey if that is true I can't imagine why the girls keep going back over and over again.

 

I know what you are saying and you will counter my above statement with "well they want to go out and dance, they have a right".

 

True, but most of them ARE getting dressed as sleazy and hot looking as they can to pick up a guy, but then they get there and act like their stuff is too good to socialize with anyone and act like virtual tramps (not ALL of them, but a good number) then get surprised if a guy says "hi there hot thang".

 

Now I am a female and my clubbing days are over...but i still ike to go with my SO on occasion and am still young enough to understand the interactions I am witnessing. And i have to say that many single women in those places are NO classier than the guys you speak of...like attracts like.

 

To quote Chris Rock on girls in clubs "i pity the guy trying to find a wife out of this crowd".

[Casey13]

JadedStar, I wouldnt even say they go out to these places to dance as their primary purpose but most of these college girls crave attention. In other words they feel very flattered and attractive when they are eyed by countless guys because it makes them feel wanted but they at the same time enjoy the control of being able to shut them down endlessly, of course being under the assumption that every guy in there is a drunk loser. They adapt the "look at me Im hot but ill kick you if you come near me attitude"

[JadedStar]

All I am saying is their motives are usually equally as questionable or sleazy as some of the guys. They aren't entirely innocent. LOL

[laisla]

most people (girls) just go clubbing to have fun, dance, and look good... not to find anybody.

[JadedStar]

Well I am in the camp that if a woman is barely dressed, maybe she shouldn't be so shocked if a guy likes what he sees enough to say 'hi baby'.

 

If he puts his hands on her, or doesn't leave when she says no interest that is one thing, but some women get so angry at a guy for trying to flirt with her. C'mon. IT IS GOING to happen if you are in club gear in a sexually charged environment filled with alcohol and recreational drugs such as a club. It isn't church.

[20 One]

I'm not sure which clubs you're attending - but the Guvernment, Republik, and the Courthouse all have relatively good clientelle. You'll find a lot of the couches are taken, and the crowd is generally older than most other clubs downtown.

 

Good luck!

[janderson83]

Here is a great hint for all guys wanting to meet women.

 

Don't do it at a club.

 

You have girls all with their friends. That is a BIG distraction. You have 300 other horny dudes competing for maybe 20 hot girls. That is another distraction. Because of the 300 horny dudes, the girls are going to have a wall of "eff off" as high as the great wall of china.

 

You'll have much better luck during the day, when women are at work, running errands, etc. And you won't have the distractions either. This may seem off the wall, but I've had WAY more luck meeting...and getting with, women this way. Seriously. And approaching a women while she is shopping (alone as well...make sure she isn't with female friends. otherwise you'll get shot down) is REALLY easy. Ready for it?

 

Ask her for a female opinion about something you need to buy for your mom, sister, friend, whatever. That is the EASIEST way to break the ice without coming off as creepy or like you are after something.

 

Then, just lead into another conversation. Make damn sure you are relaxed and comfortable though. Otherwise the girl will feel uncomfortable. A few more hints:

 

1. Ever feel like you've known someone forever? This is because they changed the conversational subject frequently, among other things. After you talk for 5 to 10 minutes about a couple of topics, you start to let your guard down, and you begin to build rapport.

 

2. Avoid topics that are negative OR highly emotional. Instead, talk about things that are neutral.

 

3. Somewhere in there, try to find a topic that she enjoys or is knowledgable about. If it is the same or similar to your knowledge, go "Yeah, I know!" Or "I totally agree". That builds rapport and easily gets them to like you better.

 

4. Obviously look nice and smell nice.

 

5. Make her laugh if you can.

 

6. Look right into her eyes when she talks, smile gently and hold yourself proud. Women can detective confidence. If you come off as confident, you'll have a better shot of getting her number or getting on a date almost immediately. (It does happen!)

 

7. Finally, you can practice getting good at this. Just start by approaching a women and asking her opinion about something. Then say "thanks" and walk away. Do this once a day. Then, after you are comfortable with it, add in the conversation part. Do this once a day. Finally, after you get really comfortable talking to any women, try to get her number. Don't make it obvious that you want it for a "date". You want it to "hang out". (You aren't calling your first "date" with her a "date". She'll run like the wind)

 

Ok, that is a lot of info.

 

Now, for you naysayers out there, this WORKS. Believe me, I know. The girl I am married too I found this way. All it takes is relaxed confidence.

 

J.

[The_Wanderer]

Why I never expect anything/look for anything at clubs.

[grymoire]

T'is why I love you!

[servedcold]

The girls will be dancing in a circle with their girlfriends, surrounded by a wall of guys. Eventually a few guys muster enough balls - abetted by liquid courage - to hit the dance floor. Only to get haplessly shot down by girl after girl. Some will resort to haplessly dancing the night away with their male buddy.

 

You are right in your implied estimation that the way these guys do it is not the way to go. The reason you don't see women "entertaining charming suitors" as you say, is that half these girls will be going home and to bed with some kid with a backwards hat smoking bong hits on a couch and playing xbox whom they are "in love" with for whatever irrational young female reasons. And have to ask you at this point, do you really want a clubber type of woman? The odds of finding a decent GF in a club are poor, and there are much easier places for casual hookups.

 

So how to ferret out the other half who are "legitimate" prospects? Stack the deck in your favor. How to do that for starters:

 

1. If at all possible, make some female friends who like to club, and go with them. Keep these relationships 100% platonic, be a good friend to them. Your social value is highest when you are with other attractive women. This takes time and may not be an option for you, but is the closest thing to a shortcut.

 

2. Find a club you like and stick to that one. Don't hop all over town from unfamiliar place to unfamiliar place. Make it your home base. Learn the environment, feel at home. Meet all the people who work there and tip them well, introduce yourself and make sure they remember you in a good way. Remember their names. These people KNOW many of the women who come there regularly and can help you immensely. You won't realize it, but women will notice that a man is in his comfort zone. They call it "being comfortable in your own skin" or other such twaddle, but it is a very powerful advantage. This takes time and effort to accomplish, but once there, you should see some pronounced advantages.

 

3. Don't drink alcohol, but if you must, nurse your drink. Slurred speech and drunken antics can be cute and funny at a party, not at a club, just brands you as another one of the louts.

 

4. Don't worry about working your game at a dance club, it's too loud anyway. Just dance, preferably with women you came with, never with male friends. IMO, much of the rudeness women display here is because guys wear their agenda on their sleeves, dance >>> chat >>> hookup. Once you are dancing with a strange woman, at the end of the dance, smile, say thanks, and walk off. Don't "hone in" on her, or start the process. Every guy does that, be different. After awhile of this having fun attitude, they will be approaching you to find out more. Imagine a room full of cats and walking up to grab one, they will all run off. Sit in a chair and dangle string and here they come.

 

5. There is lots more, and IMO, though the eye candy is plentiful, clubs are generally awful places to meet women unless you are a celebrity, wealthy or have model looks. You are attempting to meet the female in her most superficial, privileged form, and if you persist in clubbing, must remove your ego and not take anything personally. Don't get angry, most of these women, just like most of the guys, are dull, uninteresting twits in a shiny wrapper. Always keep that in mind when tempted to feel intimidated.

 

I'd go so far as to say that one can stack up the girls and guys in these joints, and the average guy would be better looking than the average girl.

 

Just another given reality, but true, deal with it or choose a different type of place to meet women.

 

Are male-female social/mating dynamics in 2009 just so askew? Were clubs like this in the 70s/80s/90s?

 

No, they weren't in the 80s/early 90s, they were much more social. Some of the same elements to overcome, though. Keep numbers 1 and 2 in mind, as they will carry you far in clubs.

[janderson83]

Awesome advice.

 

Best rule of thumb is, don't go to clubs looking for GF's, wifes, or really, anything else. Much better spots to meet women, which is easier and more effective.

[heloladies21]

I met my last several gf's all at nightclubs and they were very respectable career oriented women who were not promiscuous, so the judgmental argument that there is something wrong with the girls or the clubs that they go to is unreasonable. And it would be also be unreasonable to think that I have just been "lucky" as my brother and my friends have also had similar results. Listen, the nightlife world is as cutthroat as it gets. It is not an arena for the meek or easily discouraged. And the only men who find true success are the ones who put in the time to refine their technique through persistence and constant feedback.

 

So to address your specific point, most guys go home alone in nightclubs because they have bad game. Women want what they want and it's not up to them to change, it's up to the guys to adapt because we are the ones with the means. A girl can't control what she is attracted to, but we can control how we come accross to them. So it's good that you are trying to learn how to open, but if you are getting that type of response when you approach a girl, you need to work on your delivery. I can tell without seeing it that something seems unnatural about it. It's ok, I went through this phase as well, now after a couple of months of solid practice twice a week, 5 approaches a night, I am able to open effectively. Every girl at least responds to the opener and I'd say about 70% tranition into regular conversation.

 

But no more pointing out the reasons why this is hard, no girl dances on the dance floor 100% of the night. They will go to the bar and drink, take a second to relax and cool down. If you don't like dance clubs, go to a lounge or bar with no dance floor. You can find lots of targets there. Toronto has a lot of hot women from my not so limited experience.

[servedcold]

I met my last several gf's all at nightclubs and they were very respectable career oriented women who were not promiscuous, so the judgmental argument that there is something wrong with the girls or the clubs that they go to is unreasonable. And it would be also be unreasonable to think that I have just been "lucky" as my brother and my friends have also had similar results.

 

There are lots of different kinds of venues falling under the blanket "clubs," and in my (also considerable) experience, the type of place OP describes is a haven of superficiality, "respectable career women" or not. Good for you and your brother in finding success, but let me ask you, how long did things last with these "last several gfs?"

 

I've met and dated many women met in clubs (6 years in Manhattan, not there now), and my experience has been that they tend to be immature, superficial and attention seeking, with a much greater chance of having drug and alcohol problems than even women met in regular old bars. Also think there are easier places to meet women for casual relationships if that is the goal.

 

I'm much older than you, though, so may have gotten some curmudgeonly in my old age.

[girl68]

Oh my dear how terribly naive you are in the scene. Let me try to explain as an avid club go-er since the tender age of 16. (Bad, I know).

 

First thing you've built up the image of clubbing in your head and not based on what clubbing is actually like. No more imgaining.

 

I will speak in first person (only I's but it can be applied to many girls and group of girls at least in my experience this is how it goes). Girls don't come in to "entertain suitors" sorry kid. That is typically the LAST thing on our minds is entertaining you men. And after the last thing on our list is the chance to take up some lads offer to "escalate into something more". So no more imagining, those things you've thought up are often times so far from the truth we can't see the truth anymore. (Of course I speak in general... as many one night stands can and do happen).

 

As for the dancing with girls, I do that all the time! ALL the time. Why? Well for me I'm taken, so are many girls that visit clubs. Some are single but lots are not. So to be dancing with other guys is just well frankly "not allowed" in many relationship boundries. So that explains that! As for the making out, clubs are generally not for making out. You seem to think clubs are all about hooking up and you couldn't be more wrong.

 

I go to dance, I love to dance lots of girls just want to dance, nothing more or less than just that. We also like to get dressed up! (Why do you think we like christmas parties and weddings so much? Because we get to wear a pretty dress!) Same from clubs, we get to dress up, look nice and sexy and dance with our gals. That is my version of a damn fun night! I have absolutely no intention of hooking up with a man!

 

Don't know why you felt like describing how good looking the guys in comparison to the gals did for your argument, so I deleted it; as I have no "advice" for you in that regard.

 

In response to your questions: NO we are not going to hook up (not many of us anyways. YES we are going there JUST to dance (/drink and have a good time with the girls).

 

 

 

This is pretty much DEAD ON. Like I said I've been clubbing since I was 16. Though I have met a nice guy and am not always the snobby hot gal with a bad attitude. I can and have nicely declined advances but I have also slapped a guy or 2 in my day as well.

 

I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt. But a rude, sexist opening line will get a rude, snooby shot down. And heaven forbid you touch me; you'll get quite the rude response as well.

 

However if you are polite, "hello miss, you look very nice tonight, may I buy you a drink/ have a dance?" seeing how I'm taken I would probably smile and say: "thank you but no thanks, I have a boyfriend". (I don't think that's rude!).

 

 

 

Because I love to dance! Where can one go to hear some cool, hip tunes where not a bunch of old folk go? I love to dress up (not like some common hoe, but yeah it looks pretty damn sexy!) and sure I like a little attention. But catcalling is a no go.

 

So in conclusion stop imagining what clubs are like... they are not like anything you've pictured... anymore. Girls go to dance and have a good time, not to get picked up. (Some maybe, but many- no).

 

I have this feeling I'm going to get pretty slammed on my post... but let's hear it!

[JadedStar]

I will never understand the logic of women who dress 'dead sexy' and get offended at men in a club making expressions of their appreciation for her looks.

 

I also like to dress in club wear if i go to a club and if i were there alone (which these days i never am) i understand that men might come up to me, flirt, ask to buy me a drink, ask to dance, say 'hey baby' or whatever...it is a freaking club for God's sakes. OF COURSE this is gong to happen. So long as they don't put their hands on me i am not going to act like i am all offended.

 

The women who act offended the most are the first ones who would be boo hoo'ing if their 'dead sexy' clothes never got them anymore attention, looks, drink offers, etc. I see women on threads confused and agitated that they got all 'ho'd up' at the club and didn't get any offers to dance or ask for her phone number. No wonder men are confused!

 

I have no pity on this type of woman. I hate to sound harsh but i will quote another comedian, cant remember who - probably chris rock - i dont remember it word for word but he assumed a woman with her boobs hanging out and her crotch darn near showing wanted a man to hook up with and she said 'just becuase i dress like this doesn't mean i am sleazy'. So he goes on to say he dressed up like a cop one day and walked down the street, and a woman's purse was stolen and she came running to him "officer officer please help me, that man just stole my purse!" and he looked at her and said 'just because i am dressed like a police officer is no reason for you to ASSUME i am a cop".

[JadedStar]

Because I love to dance! Where can one go to hear some cool, hip tunes where not a bunch of old folk go? I love to dress up (not like some common hoe, but yeah it looks pretty damn sexy!) and sure I like a little attention. But catcalling is a no go.

 

So in conclusion stop imagining what clubs are like... they are not like anything you've pictured... anymore. Girls go to dance and have a good time, not to get picked up. (Some maybe, but many- no).

 

I have this feeling I'm going to get pretty slammed on my post... but let's hear it!

 

No offense but you are also the same person who will accept offers of drinks from guys even tho you have a boyfriend, so this is the same exact thing i have been referring to where women in clubs live a very confusing double standard and i am glad as heck I am not a guy....it is downright confusing.

 

You dress "damn sexy" you say and accept drink offers from strange guys when you are out...are you seirously telling me you get offended if he assumes you might actually be at the club looking to find a date?????

[girl68]

I will never understand the logic of women who dress 'dead sexy' and get offended at men in a club making expressions of their appreciation for her looks.

 

I also like to dress in club wear if i go to a club and if i were there alone (which these days i never am) i understand that men might come up to me, flirt, ask to buy me a drink, ask to dance, say 'hey baby' or whatever...it is a freaking club for God's sakes. OF COURSE this is gong to happen. So long as they don't put their hands on me i am not going to act like i am all offended.

 

Was dead sexy my quote? It's hard to draw a line sexy, skanky, "nice", hot whatever we all interpret it different. I mean is a short skirt and boots with a top NOT showing cleavage skanky? I don't really think so... it could be so much worse, I could be wearing a short skirt, with boots, showing cleavage AND mid section... so it's all in how you're looking at it.

 

I'm with you I don't all offended but I do have an issue with men who think that they have the right to verbally disrespect me based on how I look. I do appriacte some attention when I actaully put effort to look good! Like I said above I don't mind getting approached, just do so tastefully. With me you'll get shot down becasue I'm taken but I have met guys at clubs and gone on dates with them.

 

Tastefully hitting on a girl is the key. A "Are thoose fake?" doesn't cut it. I'm sorry, but who the hell thinks to ask THAT as a pick up line? I kid you not it's happened.

[girl68]

No offense but you are also the same person who will accept offers of drinks from guys even tho you have a boyfriend, so this is the same exact thing i have been referring to where women in clubs live a very confusing double standard.

 

You dress "damn sexy" you say and accept drink offers from strange guys when you are out...are you seirously telling me you get offended if he assumes you might actually be at the club looking to find a date?????

 

LOL, yeah I'm that same person. Not to worry, I'm not offended. So? I'm not some skank you judge so quickly. Never once has he gone, what the hell she accepted my drink and left me hanging, never once have I got the evil eye from him assuming he was getting something he was never going to get. Many of times I've said flat out, I've got a boyfriend so nothing ain't gonna come of this, they say so, cheers, we chat I leave, they hit on something else.

 

You're making it sound like I go to get free drinks all the time from anyone who offers even solicts such behaviour. Wrong. When I go I'll get less than 1 drink every 3 times I go. Think it happens all night long? Please. Now now, where did I say I'd get offended if he assumes he might get a date? Please quote me! I didn't I get offended when he verbally disrespects me. Big difference it what you're describing.

[JadedStar]

I never said you were a skank. As for being judged and assumptions....

 

...my whole point is that some men are going to make assumptions by 1) how a woman is dressing (or lack of dress) 2) if she accepts drinks and 3) by her behavior and how she carries herself (grinding on a pole in the club like a woman in heat as just one example)...and remember i am talking about general situations, not you in particular. I will admit i have also made some assumptions about wmoen i have seen in clubs. No clue if they are correct but first impressions....

 

...and the crux of my argument is that how can women be offended that an assumption was made? We all know in life that assumptions will always be made about us in the way we portray ourselves to the world. That is why people are on such good behavior at work - they don't want to be misjudged. That is why they act cordially in social settings - so they are not prejudged or misjudged. So the same goes for any other environment....sometimes we will be judged in the way we dress and carry ourselves.

 

It doesn't mean we are that person but first impressions have been making lasting impressions on people for centuries. This isn't a new thing.

[girl68]

And my point was I'm not offended when a man hits on me asks me to dance or whatever. I'm offended and pissed off when he treats me with disrespect physically or verbally.

[jonny15]

I don't think clubs are the best place to go and meet people to date. I've tried and it was terrible.

 

I have no idea why anyone would even like being in a crowded place like that with a bunch of drunk people dancing.

 

But then again, I don't drink or dance.

[JadedStar]

My post was really not so much directed AT you as it was using your post as a prequel to my post about women in general at clubs.

 

I don't know you personally so I can't elaborate on your behaviors at a club specifically.

It was just a generalization and my use of "you" was more rhetorical or methaphorical.

 

MANY women get offended if a guy even comes up to her to ask if she would like to dance as the OP spoke of in his opening post. And i believe him, i have seen women do this all the time. I have called women on it if they were in the group i was hanging with and ask 'what did you really expect and how did what he did really offend you that much"?

 

No woman deserves to be groped even if she IS nude in a club but it is a meat market, we all know that, so if a woman goes without wanting to be picked up she has to realize that guys WILL try if she is attractive. She can simply say no and she doesnt have to say no with a nasty attitude like he is some leper trying to slobber all over her. I dont want to be picked up at a club either but i realize the environment i am in and that it can be easily implied that i am, so i dont get angry and still nice to guys who mistakenly think i might want to dance with them or get their number. We can turn down guys with kindness and grace, so they can at least walk away with their dignity.

 

To be surprised at getting hit on at a club would be like going to the grocery store and getting really confused why so many people have carts filled with food.

[heloladies21]

There are lots of different kinds of venues falling under the blanket "clubs," and in my (also considerable) experience, the type of place OP describes is a haven of superficiality, "respectable career women" or not. Good for you and your brother in finding success, but let me ask you, how long did things last with these "last several gfs?"

 

I've met and dated many women met in clubs (6 years in Manhattan, not there now), and my experience has been that they tend to be immature, superficial and attention seeking, with a much greater chance of having drug and alcohol problems than even women met in regular old bars. Also think there are easier places to meet women for casual relationships if that is the goal.

 

I'm much older than you, though, so may have gotten some curmudgeonly in my old age.

Hmm for me, in order 6 months, 1 year, 3 months, and now for over two and a half years still going strong. I have dated outside of clubs and see no difference in the quality of woman. And these were definitely superficial, drunk style dance clubs.