Intelligent Kids Go To University

[Batya33]

"You might wish to challenge your coworker to prove his intelligence... see how he does on a 'culture free IQ test'. These are the most accurate types because you don't even need to be literate to take them, i.e. knowledge doesn't matter.

 

I disagree with this approach - people like that should be ignored not given attention for the arrogant things they say - most people prefer negative attention to being ignored and if the OP prolongs this conversation he's simply showing his defensiveness/insecurities to someone who doesn't deserve to be privvy to that.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Yup, I agree with you actually. That's why I said 'might wish'... I personally wouldn't do it, but not everyone is me =)

[Alezia]

I don't know, it's not very hard to see that the average University graduate will make more than a highschool drop out o_O. Sure there are some smart highschool dropouts but they are the exception rather than the norm. A lot of them dropped out because they were too preoocupied by their drug, alcohol etc... addictions. In fact, I don't know of one smart guy who dropped out of my highschool.

 

Some of the highschool graduates that don't go to college/uni are very hard workers. They will make that 60-80K a year, but working 50-100 hours a week. I consider myself smart, but I would in no way be able to handle shifts like that.

[cutiepie07]

Ooh interesting topic.

 

I don't think a person's intelligence is defined by whether or not they went to University. Intelligence can be shown in many ways. It wouldn't matter to me whether a person has a degree or not. Yeah it can be a great learning experience, intellectually and mentally, but experiences can be gained outside of the classroom too.

 

To say that only intelligent people go to University is just really ignorant of people in education as well as outside of Academia. I can't say how many stupid people I have found go to college, and I'm not trying to be mean here, but sometimes it baffles me. I think it's important to note that college isn't for everyone. I am sure there are a lot of people that only go to college because it is expected of them, not necessarily because they want to. I would be a bit put-off if someone didn't go to college and was lazy, had no desire to work, etc, but if they seemed to have their life in order and had some goal they were working on then the degree wouldn't matter, to me anyway.

 

I had a friend in college who studied constantly, she barely had a social life because she was constantly studying. She graduated with like a 3.98GPA and is now in her 2nd year of Med School. For her, this constant studying worked for her. I wouldn't say she was necessarily smarter than the rest of her peers, she just studied extremely hard to get where she is. While she can be considered book smart I wouldn't consider her to be street smart, she is just good at memorization and spewing out information learned in books.

 

I suppose intelligence can be subjective, in that everyone excels in different areas. Yes, there are people who are naturally gifted, but in those cases I don't know if it would matter whether they have a degree or not. The degree might help them use their intelligence but I don't know if it would necessarily make them more intelligent, to a certain degree. Not sure if this makes sense.

[poloplayer]

I think cutiepie made some great comments, and, I do agree with her. POINTS!!!

 

Some of the most retarded people I know are college educated. Some of the smartest didn't go to college because it wasn't required for what they wanted to do. Some goes for graduate schools.

[CaptainPlanet]

Pure speculation and doesn't have anything to do with whether university kids are more intelligent than kids who don't go to university. Also, it sounds like you're writing that out of pure jealousy. I went to a school ranked only a few spots below MIT and let me tell you, just about all of my classmates were exteremely intelligent and in no way was my school a joke.

 

And so what if MIT requires a massive financial investment? 90%+ of kids, poor or rich, don't have the academic skills and intelligence to gain admittance anyway.

 

I'm not American so I don't understand this tiered approach to society where if you have money you're suddenly a better person. Where I come from admittance to university is based ENTIRELY on your scores in year 12. There is NO difference between the best, and worst university in this country in terms of fee's.

 

The result - they're almost all the same. The only difference is the prestige of the organization (so if you want to work at the big 4 you'd better go to a g8), you get students attending the better ones who did better in year 12, and the research the school does. So when you tell me MIT is the school where all the best and brightest go - but you need $250,000 I nearly fall off my chair laughing that you think the smartest kids in the country go there. The best and brightest with access to $250,000 !!!! The smartest kids will be spread out accross the country based on their financial situation. Some will have been so poor they won't go and will have gone into the trades or technical school (that is what I would have had to have done).

 

Plus it is a LOT harder to live in the United states. In Australia it is certainly achievable to work and support yourself while studying but it is still difficult. Especially if you study something like Engineering.

 

When you say 'smart kids' you really need to be able to isolate that factor and define what groups of people you are talking about because people tend to come from diverse backgrounds. Let us assume you mean children of middle class parents who are prepared to support their children through University, and who's children also have a strong desire to go to a University that is affordable by their parents. Of those children attending the section of Universities relevant to their financial situations who wish to go to University and will be supported the smarter ones will be more likely to go to the better Universities. Also with very similar or identical study environment and parents from similar working backgrounds. That I would tend to agree with. To an extent.

[JadedStar]

I think cutiepie made some great comments, and, I do agree with her. POINTS!!!

 

Some of the most retarded people I know are college educated. Some of the smartest didn't go to college because it wasn't required for what they wanted to do. Some goes for graduate schools.

 

But on that same token and to be fair, there are also some very smart people who HAVE gone to university. Sometimes debates like this serve to make college educated people look stupid when that is ridiculous. I know you are not specifically saying that, but sometimes people infer that when they read stuff like this.

 

Some of the most intelligent people I have ever met had a degree, and some did not. I will be real honest in saying that most of the people I have met in my life who were way up their in what i deem the 'smartness' scale DID have a degree. Some didn't, but certainly most of them did.

 

But no, as a natural measure of intelligence, going to college or not is not a good measure.

[JadedStar]

I don't know, it's not very hard to see that the average University graduate will make more than a highschool drop out o_O. Sure there are some smart highschool dropouts but they are the exception rather than the norm. A lot of them dropped out because they were too preoocupied by their drug, alcohol etc... addictions. In fact, I don't know of one smart guy who dropped out of my highschool.

 

Some of the highschool graduates that don't go to college/uni are very hard workers. They will make that 60-80K a year, but working 50-100 hours a week. I consider myself smart, but I would in no way be able to handle shifts like that.

 

 

Right. They are the exception (high school dropouts making more than those who went to college). Some jobs, like sales for instance, is full of smart people who are making a heck of a living without a degree. But most at least have a highschool education. My last job we had sales managers earning 150k without a degree. But they were not the norm, most of the successful account managers did have a degree.

 

I have hired many IT people in my career with no college, just on the job or technical school training. Some of them earned 90K and up.

 

It depends on the job, but it is not the norm for a high school drop out to make as much as a college grad.

[laisla]

is it true that MIT is cutting tuition costs for middle and low-income families?

[Creative]

Let me just summarize what the counter arguments have been saying.

 

So University students are just this:

 

- only gets jobs that the high school dropouts created for them AND "submissively following orders"

 

- don't go into business

 

- just bunch of people unprepared for work

 

- have absolutely less of other 6 intelligence than the general population

 

- most University students are "retarded kids"

 

- earning the same amount of income as the general population

 

- going to University because our friends or parents wants us to go

 

- "rely heavily on education institution to certify (ourselves)"

 

At first I tried to be objective about the issue and speak proportion. But it seems like the topic is way too sensitive to talk about since every non-university students felt the pressure and have figured their reasons.

 

But if that's how society is, then I'd say prevent it from happening by attending University or at least have your current/future kids attend so they wouldn't have to feel this pressure.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

is it true that MIT is cutting tuition costs for middle and low-income families?

 

link removed

 

Also, anyone can learn for free with MIT's open courseware:

 

link removed

[StrawberryYogurt]

is it true that MIT is cutting tuition costs for middle and low-income families?

 

Yep, and it's not just the rich kids go to these great universities. The less you make, the more financial aid you get so Captain is wrong in asserting or implying that only those with access to $250K get to go to MIT. I went to a school that was very expensive but my parents and I hardly paid anything due to our lower middle class income and my working 15 hours a week + summer internship pay, and I was not unique in that regard.

[StrawberryYogurt]

The smartest kids will be spread out accross the country based on their financial situation. Some will have been so poor they won't go and will have gone into the trades or technical school (that is what I would have had to have done).

 

Yes some, but most who go to tech school are not intelligent enough for a top 10 university like MIT. I wouldn't even consider myself intelligent enough for MIT.

[shy2cool]

You don't necessarily have to be intelligent to go to university.

 

In Australia, the majority of high school kids choose to enter university in the hope of a good, secure job at the end. The fact that so many people enter university means that not everyone is going to be super smart. Over here, to get into the most popular degree programs, you just need to work hard during Year 12 (final year of school) to ensure that you get a high university entrance score.

 

Anyone of average intelligence that has the self-discipline to work hard is able to graduate from university with at least a bachelor's degree.

 

I have a Master's but I am not particularly intelligent. I just like to analyze things.

[LemonCheesecak]

I have to say the absolute counter argument to the ignorant person quoted in OPs post would be my University course. I'm studying for my masters in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and I have to say, I have never met such an arrogant, naive, socially inept bunch of people in my life.

 

And this isn't just your stereotypical engineering stream either, one trip to our student union building and you begin to doubt why you've chosen this path in life.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I have to say the absolute counter argument to the ignorant person quoted in OPs post would be my University course. I'm studying for my masters in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and I have to say, I have never met such an arrogant, naive, socially inept bunch of people in my life.

 

And this isn't just your stereotypical engineering stream either, one trip to our student union building and you begin to doubt why you've chosen this path in life.

 

All I have to say is...

 

Huh?

[Johnny330]

Wow, way to generalize. I think the counter arguments were just noting and providing some examples where not all university students are intelligent or more so than others. No one said it was a universal law.

 

The only person that seems to be sensitive about this is you.

[COtuner]

I've met plenty of idiots in college.... and plenty of smart people who never went. It's all in how you apply yourself and whether you choose to grow and learn. College can be a great asset to growth if you use it to its full extent, but it is not the only one.

[COtuner]

I have to say the absolute counter argument to the ignorant person quoted in OPs post would be my University course. I'm studying for my masters in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and I have to say, I have never met such an arrogant, naive, socially inept bunch of people in my life.

 

And this isn't just your stereotypical engineering stream either, one trip to our student union building and you begin to doubt why you've chosen this path in life.

 

You have to remember, the college environment doesn't inspire maturity in a lot of people if they choose to avoid work. Simply being there isn't enough - those who treat it as a mini-career in itself, pursue knowledge and skills, will emerge better off for having attended. Too many kids seem to show up for the piece of paper and think that makes them "new and improved".

[Creative]

Though I did have a eye wide open moment when I saw this thread. The truth is 55%-60% of the students who survived till their 5th year, they're all very bright. Perhaps there's an idiot here and there, but I'm often amazed by their capacity to work / volunteer / and study at the same time. I'd say there are 75% people who are currently under this condition where they had to work and study at the same time. It's nowhere near funny to say they're average in any way. The scenery of this thread contrast greatly with what I know about them.

The stress they go through, which I also endured but sometimes fail to cope like they do, is just amazing.

[cutiepie07]

I think there is a difference between being intelligent and then knowing how to test well or study. I'm sure there are plenty of people who smart but when it comes to taking tests, perhaps scores don't reflect that, or vice versa. People who aren't necessarily the most intelligent person in the group but just test well and study/maintain information really well.

 

I went to a good university and graduated with a BS. I don't consider myself to be extremely smart, but I worked hard for my degree. I plan on going to grad school. This is what I want and because I want it, I am prepared to work hard for it.

 

Yes, there are different levels of competitiveness here in the US, between Universities. I think it is fair to say that not everyone is going to go to MIT. They are extremely competitive in terms of academic standards and pricing. Same as people who are in Med School or PhD programs. Most of the people in these programs worked extremely hard to get there and it is not for everyone.

 

However, You could say there is a college or University for most everyone. But not everyone wants to go to college, there are perfectly intelligent people who just don't want to be in a structured environment and learn the same things their peers are learning. Some people just learn better from experience instead of being in a classroom learning from text books.

 

I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I have seen a lot of University students coast by in University, partying all the time, and just basically living up these four years because they are not ready for the 'real world'. This isn't the typical University student, but I have come accross a few of these people during my time as an undergrad. I have also noticed that people get a degree but then don't necessarily use it or go into a field that has nothing to do with their degree. I'm not trying to stereotype or anything, but I find it sad that a degree is now almost expected and that people don't go to college because they actually want to learn. It's more to secure them a job, which yes, I understand. But I find it sad, that we live in a society where a degree is expected. There used to be something that was admirable about getting a BS degree, now it seems it's the other way round, that there is something amiss if you don't have one. Yes, it is something to be proud of and it is an accomplishment and I am not trying to knock that fact. I will admit that I am proud of myself for graduating University. But it just baffles me that people who don't have degrees are looked down upon. But I suppose you can argue that if people are judged on their degrees then why can't people be judged based on the fact they don't have one. *sigh* it's a hard topic to discuss.

 

Graduate degrees are another story.

 

Also, I think the high school you went to, the upbringing you have, neighborhood etc, can all affect your view of higher learning and whether or not you will go to University. Of course, there are always exceptions to every rules.

 

 

 

I think this is a big generalization. I think people were just stating reasons, in no way generalizing University students.

[Creative]

I didn't even point out about anyone generalizing.

 

I don't even care if they are generalizing or not. It's cheap and boring if someone uses "generalization" as a point these days because it requires no thinking at all and it doesn't point out anything useful other than to try to discredit others with. Unless used very inaccurately, telling others that they're generalizing is merely one of those non-constructive cheap shot 'take'.

 

There is no evidence with regards to the counter arguments because in hindsight, their arguments also applies to non-university population, and together, they merely cancels each other out.

 

But one major measurable distinction between what attributes to an intelligent step forward is monetary income. We have evidence there that University students make more money. I think it's smart to think long term. It's definitely a very useful type of intelligence to have.

 

Another thing is the filtering system. If someone were to say they attend college because it's cheaper and that there are less students per class, I'd think they're being dishonest. We're all striving to get into University. This year, my closest University requires 82% high school grades to get into it.

I'm unable to fathom at the possibility that students with grades 82% and above (proportionally speaking) have the same intelligence as everyone else in the country.

It's just not possible.