Women approaching Men

[doyathink]

Foreskin Gump?

 

Ahahaa... yeah, something like that. lol

[agatha]

Honestly I think it is the right thing to do. Women are liberated and equal to men so they should do their fair share. If I wasn't interested I would like to be approached because it would be a confidence boost. That being said, a lot of women already do approach particularly men in a nightclub setting. I think it is ridiculous and hypocritical of women to expect men to do all the work. Yet expect equal rights in a relationship.

 

ok, let me start analizing: did not quite answer it, because only said that would like it if she was not interested. what about the rest?

[agatha]

jss1100 and ForsakenLove would love it, cool. couple of others as well, writing names is tiring X p.

 

so, Batya33 and COtuner made a good point on noticing that as much as men love it, they would not pick the approacher as a long-term partner. as an occasional approacher, I've noticed the same as well (none of my approachees lasted more than 3 months, though I've been to 3yrs, 2.5, 1.2, and 9 months relationships)

 

then my question is: WHY?

[Batya33]

No, I said if the woman did more of the asking out that it wouldn't work out long term most likely. Approaching - I don't think it matters and I think people who want a long term relationships should do their best to be in situations where there is no need to 'approach" in a "pick up" way - but should avail themselves of more natural settings whether that is school, sports, volunteer work, community theater, swing dancing, whatever.

 

As I wrote on another thread, I approached my husband first. He however loves that our "story' is his courting of me. Not as in 'chase" - he didn't chase me. I find that typical of most guys I know - they are more comfortable doing more of the planning and asking especially in the beginning and enjoy that the relationship "story" involved them in that role.

[COtuner]

I think that both genders should work on feeling comfortable enough to at least lightly flirt or find some way to communicate that they are interested in a person. I think this should be a lot less about gender in general. Boy or Girl, Man or Woman, we should all probably work on being confident enough to work towards what we want in relationships.

 

Based on the other thread by Corvidae, the flirting might be happening, it's about the "do you or do you not actually get up and go talk to this person with the intent of initiating something".

[Batya33]

I think that both genders should work on feeling comfortable enough to at least lightly flirt or find some way to communicate that they are interested in a person. I think this should be a lot less about gender in general. Boy or Girl, Man or Woman, we should all probably work on being confident enough to work towards what we want in relationships.

 

QUOTE]

 

Based on the other thread by Corvidae, the flirting might be happening, it's about the "do you or do you not actually get up and go talk to this person with the intent of initiating something".

 

I totally agree that women should actively show interest. I just think that it's more effective if the woman lets the man do the asking out.

[COtuner]

But I think of approaching as being prelude to asking out, part of the same conversation

[Cognitive_Canine]

No, I said if the woman did more of the asking out that it wouldn't work out long term most likely. Approaching - I don't think it matters and I think people who want a long term relationships should do their best to be in situations where there is no need to 'approach" in a "pick up" way - but should avail themselves of more natural settings whether that is school, sports, volunteer work, community theater, swing dancing, whatever.

 

As I wrote on another thread, I approached my husband first. He however loves that our "story' is his courting of me. Not as in 'chase" - he didn't chase me. I find that typical of most guys I know - they are more comfortable doing more of the planning and asking especially in the beginning and enjoy that the relationship "story" involved them in that role.

 

 

I greatly agree with this. Never thought of it that way.

 

I believe many men would not be okay knowing that their wives courted them.

 

And, I do not believe many women would be flattered knowing that they were the ones doing the courting.

 

Is it in our genes? Culture pressed? Tradtion pressed?

 

Hard to tell. But, it is what it is.

[Crush85]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I strongly believe in the concept of mutual pursuit. I don't like the idea of one person "courting" the other, you know what I mean? I want to chase and be chased ...

 

I'm probably not wording this the right way, but hopefully everyone knows what I mean.

[CaptainPlanet]

ok, let me start analizing: did not quite answer it, because only said that would like it if she was not interested. what about the rest?

 

Agatha it depends on how it is done. As with women if it is done sincerely would make me feel good. I would react by reciprocating.

 

Unfortunately, most women who have hit on me have done it by walking up to me and grabbing me on the ass...

 

Or they just dance in front of you really blatantly or have grabbed my hands and tried to dance with me. (these have been total strangers not friends). No woman has ever sincerely told me that she likes me.

[doyathink]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I strongly believe in the concept of mutual pursuit. I don't like the idea of one person "courting" the other, you know what I mean? I want to chase and be chased ...

 

I'm probably not wording this the right way, but hopefully everyone knows what I mean.

 

Yeah, I agree. When one feels like they're the one doing all the chasing...then it starts to lose it's appeal.

[DN]

When an approach is rejected there may be many reasons - not attracted, already interested in someone else, not ready to date right now and so on.

 

So when a woman does approach a man and is rejected she should not assume it was because she did the approaching and that he would eventually have approached her. It could just as easily be for some other reason. I suppose vanity would be assuaged by assuming it was the approach but logic would suggest otherwise.

 

The fact is that the data is insufficient. One person's experience and assumptions are not enough to say that women should not approach. Unless and until women do approach in about the same numbers of men and have a higher rejection rate than men could it be reasonably assumed it is because men don't like to be approached. Too many men say they would like it and would accept accept but have never been approached for there to be reasonable proof that those men are either lying or would change their minds.

[COtuner]

DN, this is reasonable. Maybe we keep a thread open and make it a "women approach men" challenge. See what happens

 

And Corvidae can jump in and assess against his own theory?

[Cognitive_Canine]

DN, this is reasonable. Maybe we keep a thread open and make it a "women approach men" challenge. See what happens

 

And Corvidae can jump in and assess against his own theory?

 

I've approached a few men but I didn't like them enough to keep dating them. And all three of them were the cold approach (I think that's what the PUA guys call it).

 

I enjoy being approached a lot more. If I like a guy, I'll give him signals, set up situations in which he could easily ask.

[DN]

It requires a change in the way people see each other and their traditional roles. But what people forget is that those traditional roles have always been changing and adjusting to different times, cultures, expectations and circumstances and there is no reason to suppose that we have come so far in the changes and that's it - no more changes.

 

As an example. Most people have an idea that women stayed home and looked after children while men went out to jobs and earned the money. And that was true - but it was only true for a very limited number of people for a very limited number of years in recent memory. Prior to the rise of the middle classes men and women worked - and so did children. The factory acts of Great Britain passed in the nineteenth century limited the number of hours women and children under the age of fourteen could work.

 

So the view of women as homemakers was something that happened for middle class people for about a hundred years or so. Prior to that only rich people didn't work.

 

My point is that in the same way, dating as such is a fairly recent innovation and has undergone many changes since it's inception. There is no reason to suppose things can't or won't continue to change.

[gracerules2008]

I just rely on divine intervention to get a girl. That's what I would be doing if I were still single. If it's meant to be then it will happen whether I'm too shy to approach or not.

[Batya33]

I greatly agree with this. Never thought of it that way.

 

I believe many men would not be okay knowing that their wives courted them.

 

And, I do not believe many women would be flattered knowing that they were the ones doing the courting.

 

Is it in our genes? Culture pressed? Tradtion pressed?

 

Hard to tell. But, it is what it is.

 

Yes - I never said or though that it was "fair" but I'm never asked (either on here or by friends) whether it is fair - I'm asked - usually by women - how best to approach dating. I answer that question based on reality and the assumption that the person asking doesn't want to be on a crusade to change the way things are, she just wants to find a long term relationship. I have yet to meet a woman who insisted that she would decline a date or a relationship because the man felt more comfortable doing more of the asking or planning. Life would have been much easier for me in dating if asking out men was effective - because I did just fine at that.

[DN]

She doesn't have to be on a crusade to change the way things are. But she can think for herself and realise that this man and this woman at this time may do things differently and be successful. If enough women take that chance often enough - things will change all on their own.

 

Why give up the chance of a good relationship simply because something hasn't worked for other people? Success often attends people who do things differently and think for themselves.

[CaptainPlanet]

Yes, but DN you are forgetting that when discussing things from an Americancentric point of view the only people considered are middle class people. I have noticed a lot of sentiments towards the working classes among people I know well that I do not appreciate. Rich people or upper middle class people really don't know.

 

You won't get an agreement out of most people if you try to discuss the lower or working classes. That will be seen as irrelevant because the fact that they are not well off is their own fault. I used to try to make a similar argument all the time regarding things similar to the following :

 

but it was only true for a very limited number of people for a very limited number of years in recent memory. Prior to the rise of the middle classes men and women worked

 

They've been raised differently, they just don't understand. I make the point so often and it just gets brushed over and ignored. A lot of things discussed on this forum apply only to the middle classes. I don't strictly see anything wrong with that system. If that is what people want. I like the idea of one day being able to crush and abuse those less fortunate than myself. Having that superior feeling in your life must have advantages. If you work hard and achieve something you should be rewarded. Fair enough. However, I still prefer the Australian system.

 

I've noticed that as I start to associate with women who have grown up in upper middle class backgrounds that they tend to expect a lot more. The women I went to high school with did not care so much about their mans career, or if he paid for the date. Most just went and married someone they liked. As I have made new friends. As I have associated with people who are basically 'yuppies' I've noticed a different culture.

 

Part of my dislike for women stems from the upper middle classes. When I was younger I did not dislike women. I noticed they did not like me but I had no ill feelings towards them at all. Not that I dislike women as individuals. I notice a lot of things they do as a general group that I do not like.

 

These out dated gender stereotypes and the sense of entitlement they operate under is one. Their oblivious carelessness to anything affecting a man is another. As if they do not care that men have feelings. Which is part of this issue. Why should it always be the man putting himself on the line ?

[Cognitive_Canine]

CP, you act as if approaching a woman is a painful experience.

 

"Putting himself on the line"? Seriously?

 

Asking someone out is not a big deal.

 

Also, I have met and dated an australian man, he followed the same dating rules as we do. He approached me in a book store and asked for my number on the cold approach.

[DN]

Well my post was not about gender bashing nor do I dislike women. I just wanted to point out that times change and that I think it very sad that both men and women can miss out on the chance of a good relationship because of old-fashioned ideas that can change if people are willing to take a chance.

 

Anyone who dislikes women (as you appear to do) is unlikely to have much success whether shy or confident. Women tend to like men who like women. And so your dislike of women becomes self-fulfilling.

[Batya33]

She doesn't have to be on a crusade to change the way things are. But she can think for herself and realise that this man and this woman at this time may do things differently and be successful. If enough women take that chance often enough - things will change all on their own.

 

Why give up the chance of a good relationship simply because something hasn't worked for other people? Success often attends people who do things differently and think for themselves.

 

Because for all the years I dated I had limited time and when you have limited time to date (not just biological clock, I mean school/work/family responsibilities, etc) you do what is most effective. My experience is not just my own but hundreds of people I know and have known (I know, I sound like a broken record but I constantly get this comment as if it was just about me, it is not) - and that is an underestimate. I've also said it might be different for people under 25 - I don't know enough about that age group. I also have always acknowledged that there are exceptions.

 

One of the reasons I am approached so often for advice (in the "real world") is because I don't do the "well maybe he's shy!" or "oh he's definitely interested why else would he flirt so much - just ask him out". Every single time I was right -- he just wasn't interested in dating or available to date.

 

I remember one example (of many, I need to keep clarifying that) where my woman friend got angry with me - because 12 of her friends AND her therapist had insisted that her co-worker must be really into her and not asking her out because either he was shy or afraid of the working situation. He flirted all the time (she said), and they spent a lot of time together during work breaks.

 

She wrote him a long letter in which she poured her heart out (no, she didn't ask him out but made it very clear she would love to be with him). She took him out for his birthday. He told her he enjoyed the letter. She fought me every step of the way - how dare I say he wasn't that into her or he wasn't available to date with all this "evidence".

 

A few weeks later he told her he lived with his girlfriend and that it was none of her business because they were just friends.

 

And yes it should change - but especially if a woman is focused on her biological clock ticking and wants to settle down I am not going to advise her to spend her limited time asking men out and assuming that men who don't ask her out are "shy" and need to be asked out. Because then you get the threads of these women getting attached to men who passively agree to go on a date, passively get involved in a fling, show lukewarm interest -- and the women get more and more attached and forego opportunities to meet men who are really into them, continuing to make excuses for their "shy" guy.

[CaptainPlanet]

Well my post was not about gender bashing nor do I dislike women. I just wanted to point out that times change and that I think it very sad that both men and women can miss out on the chance of a good relationship because of old-fashioned ideas that can change if people are willing to take a chance.

 

You are talking about what is fair, which I understand completely and I agree with you. The problem with that line of argument is that it means nothing to a woman. The way they see it is if they all get together and don't approach men, then the men will have to come to them if they are interested enough. So they win out. In the end it balances out in their favor. Sort of like a cartel.

 

Ladies - here is the clincher of WHY you should approach men.

 

We won't approach you if we don't like you. Which basically means we look at your body from a distance and decide.

 

If you want to be noticed for -

 

Your personality

 

Your brains

 

Who you are as a person and your good quality self.

 

YOU - need to start approaching men. We'll notice these qualities and want to date you. YOU will get a better quality man. You don't have to run up and declare marriage. Just go up to the guy at a bar or standing on his own and show interest. Give us something to work with.

 

The other advantage is that you get to be seen by men who would not normally have anything to do with you. Once we start talking we might decide we like you.

 

There you go. All for your own benefit. We are here trying to help you, telling you that it will be much better for you. As a result much better for everyone if women approach men.

 

You can still be feminine about it and let the man think he is doing all the work. That is all part of the game. Requiring skills that a person must develop. Through trial error and repeated failure. The idle woman and the approaching male benefits a small, petite, largest breasted portion of society. Not the average woman. Certainly not the average man. By not putting in the effort, ladies, you are hurting yourselves too in the long run.

[DN]

The problem with that line of argument is that it means nothing to a woman.

Any time I read something like this that generalises about women, especially in some sort of derogatory way, it tells me all I need to know about the person writing it. I immediately understand that they have probably been hurt by one or two women in the past and have taken that hurt and redirected it against all women. I feel sorry for them but I really can't take what they say seriously - anything based out of fear or loathing is too suspect.

 

I like women. I think they aren't as different from men as people make out and any differences are more than made up for by similarities. My purpose is to try and bring people together - not drive them apart by accusing them of anything or by making broad and unhelpful generalisations based on gender.

[CaptainPlanet]

Any time I read something like this that generalises about women, especially in some sort of derogatory way, it tells me all I need to know about the person writing it. I immediately understand that they have probably been hurt by one or two women in the past and have taken that hurt and redirected it against all women. I feel sorry for them but I really can't take what they say seriously - anything based out of fear or loathing is too suspect.

 

I like women. I think they aren't as different from men as people make out and any differences are more than made up for by similarities. My purpose is to try and bring people together - not drive them apart by accusing them of anything or by making broad and unhelpful generalisations based on gender.

 

But you are generalizing yourself by saying that everyone who says anything in a sort of derogatory way tells you everything you need to know.

 

I immediately understand that they have probably been hurt by one or two women in the past and have taken that hurt and redirected it against all women.

I dislike lots of different groups of people, not just women. I don't do it because I necessarily dislike them. That is actually something that has been thrust upon me on this forum. I do it because I think there is a need to critique behavior. To find ways to improve. Women approaching men might not be realistic but would be a step in the right direction if we can talk about it and be mature enough to say that in general one particular gender is usually at fault.