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New beliver in basic PUA techniques


Pegasus

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Hi all!

 

My best friend became believer in basic PUA techniques. That is something that I never expected.

 

He is your typical introvert shy guy which had few short relationships in the past but every single one of them failed because female lost interest in him after a while. In all those, he was not the one that actually did pursuing and approaching because of his shyness - he met them all through friends and after a while things naturally progressed with effort on a female side. Of course, he also put a lot of effort and most likely - too much just to appear as insecure.

 

So, what happened? He become a little envy because he saw that lately I got a lot of girls (none of them qualified as a good long term partner but that is another story) while he gets zero dates, zero sex, zero relationships.

 

So - I lend him my David DeAngelo book as easy reading and he rejected it with all the typical BS you can read from guys who are unsuccessful in dating and relationships on this site ("this is fake" / "this is stupid" / "I will find someone that will love me the way I am" / etc....etc...etc..). He was in that stage for a while still seeing me regulary dating different girls and having sex with them while he was still your typical too nice guy.

 

Few days ago he went on a coffee with his very good friend (female) who is very good looking, smart and educated professional and they got a little bit drunk so he asked her what she thinks about DeAngelo stuff. She quickly went through book and after a while she told him that in most stuff this guy is right and that she would be attracted to such behavior. That was a turning point for him.

 

So now - he started to believe and actually started reading the book just to realize that every single thing he was doing dating & relationships related was totally wrong. It's hard for him to accept it but he is boldly going to a better place in life, to a place where he will be the one that qualifies if a girl is good enough for him, and not the opposite.

 

I just wanted to say - kudos to my friend and good luck

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What are the aims of being a Pick Up Artist? Is it to shag as many women as possible, or to find a relationship?

 

Both......to get experience first to know what is out there and what you like and don't like (and you can't know this if you don't try) and after a while to land in a good LTR. At least from my point of view ;-).

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Both......to get experience first to know what is out there and what you like and don't like (and you can't know this if you don't try) and after a while to land in a good LTR. At least from my point of view ;-).

 

I think they are mutually exclusive. I would feel hurt if I was someone's notch on a bed post because of some ridiculous book. I think that people who need to follow this 'technique' have low self-esteem and insecurity issues to want to deliberately hurt someone by playing them.

 

Good luck. I think it's callous and shallow, but each to their own.

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I think they are mutually exclusive. I would feel hurt if I was someone's notch on a bed post because of some ridiculous book. I think that people who need to follow this 'technique' have low self-esteem and insecurity issues to want to deliberately hurt someone by playing them.

 

Good luck. I think it's callous and shallow, but each to their own.

 

Exactly - everyone has a right to have an opinion.

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Exactly - everyone has a right to have an opinion.

 

I also think when so-called PUA have their heart ripped out and stamped on by someone playing with their emotions, they really aren't entitled to much sympathy if they've been doing the same thing deliberately for years.

 

It seems so empty and silly. Like Tom Cruise in Magnolia, which was a magnificent performance, but showed the silliness of these men - "worship the c***, tame the ***t". Watch it and cringe...

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To tell you the truth....I expected you would say that. Maybe one day.... ;-).

 

Peg, brother, it's the everlasting debate between you and me.

 

I do agree with Honey Pumpkin on this one. Certainly no offense to you intended, but I also feel like those books are for people with low self-esteem. (I point no fingers here, as I have read and tried some of it myself.)

 

My belief - the way you approach women is dictated by your personality, and you will attract women based upon that. So, you are attracting women using David D's personality, and not your own. It's my opinion that anyone who uses this book will attract women right for David D and not for him!

 

Like I said, I read some of this book, and I've used some of the techniques before. The girl I attracted was a total trainwreck - not right for me at all. She was basically an insensitive jerk, so I think to myself, no wonder the techniques worked! Like sometimes attracts like! In addition, she said some of the joking/teasing hurt her feelings. Why would I want to try that on someone I really like?

 

As for your story - one drunk girl said she liked the techniques, so you conclude this will work on the female gender? Don't you think that's a stretch?

 

I say again. I liked your sig - I am just me. Sure, it's ok to work on yourself, but don't stop being yourself, Peg. Stop being like David D. He has a nice little scheme going where he's collecting money from tons of desperate and heartbroken people by teaching these lousy techniques. What a way to live your life.

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I think they are mutually exclusive. I would feel hurt if I was someone's notch on a bed post because of some ridiculous book. I think that people who need to follow this 'technique' have low self-esteem and insecurity issues to want to deliberately hurt someone by playing them.

 

Good luck. I think it's callous and shallow, but each to their own.

 

Agreed. I think you are ruining the chances of meeting a great girl because you are too busy 'pushing them away' in hopes of looking like this unbelievable package of desire

 

IE - girl wants what she can't have - i wouldn't want it.

 

This would make me turn the other way. Games are exhausting.

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Peg, one more thing I wanted to throw at you.

 

I was talking to this girl last night. I've known her for just a little while. We are just friends. She's a really great girl - I am talking the type you think, damn, I could definitely see this person being a best friend to me, and marrying her, heck yeah. She just has a stellar personality, sensitive, mature, loving, giving.

 

She was telling me that she's so tired of dating "dogs" and she wishes, for once, she could meet a nice guy. She was telling me how she treats her boyfriends, and I'm like wow, a guy would love to have a woman like this.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not attracted to her at all, so it will not go anywhere beyond a friendship, but, you don't know how much I wish I could find more women with this personality.

 

Just wanted to put another flame under your theory about nice guys. I think normal, healthy people want sensitive, caring, giving partners. Girls who want jerks, in my opinion, are just immature, or they have been treated so badly, so this is what they are used to. What feels "comfortable" isn't always what's right for you. I also think these type of women are much more likely to treat their b/f like garbage in return. I've seen and experienced it myself too many times, man.

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She was telling me that she's so tired of dating "dogs" and she wishes, for once, she could meet a nice guy. She was telling me how she treats her boyfriends, and I'm like wow, a guy would love to have a woman like this.

 

This is actually funny - you still didn't get that what they say and are attracted to are two totally different things. After her shagging with "dogs" now she wants a fool that would marry her. Don't be that fool because she will eventually get bored with niceness.

 

So what are you saying - that you should be with nutcases because you obviously attract them? Are they right match for you and your personality? What kind of results do you get by following your "way"? Are you happy with results?

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This is actually funny - you still didn't get that what they say and are attracted to are two totally different things. After her shagging with "dogs" now she wants a fool that would marry her. Don't be that fool because she will eventually get bored with niceness.

 

This is a main problem with the PUA mindset - it trades one set of limiting set of beliefs with another. On the positive side, I agree that women are not very good at articulating what attracts them. And most importantly they are not sexually attracted to someone who is "just nice". When women say they want someone who is kind and affectionate they speak the truth - it's just not the entire truth.

 

On the other hand, many people with a PUA mindset seem to extrapolate what they have learned from their pickups to long-term relationships. This leads to problematic assumptions such as: "now she wants a fool that would marry her". Of course a healthy woman would like to end up with someone who is nice - claiming otherwise is ridicilous. It's just that he has to be more than that. Most importantly he should not suffer from A.S.S. (Approval Seeking Syndrome). Being confident with his own sexuality and being assertive are two important other traits.

 

Don't trade one set of false beliefs for another.

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Most PUA techniques are just tools to bring out a man's natural attractiveness, a quantity that is already there, and that most men express every day in interactions with people at large being themselves. They are designed to overcome misinformation that men get from family, media and clueless friends about building attraction, and to overcome personality blocks that prevent men from being their true selves around women they are attracted to. Yes, some are designed to bring shy, less dominant men out of their shells, but that they encourage fakery and games is really an unfair assessment. No PUA techniques I've ever read about or used encourage dishonesty.

 

Let's take one single technique as an example, waiting to call a woman, not calling her the very next day after you meet her, spacing out early contact. On the surface, this looks like a game, but is far from it. The underlying lesson from this basic PUA technique is twofold, 1. Don't shower attention on any given woman until you have a better grasp on who she is and whether she is worthy of your time, as so many men and women get bogged down in hyper-romanticizing a prospect before there is anything resembling a relationship in place, thus giving themselves away too soon and easily. 2. Have a full, rich life with activities and goals such that a relationship is not all you have going on at any given time, your happiness and sense of fulfillment in life shouldn't be dependent on having a relationship at any given time. You are a person with lots going on in life so you ration out the time available for dating and relationships without making it the unhealthy focus of the measure of your life.

 

Let's look at another one, the DeAngelo technique of "busting on" or "negging" women met out and about. All this one says is to let your personality shine out with women you meet in exactly the same way that you interact with others in your life. Most people engage others with humor, we joke and kid each other. Yet many, many men approach women like a panhandler sucking up and looking for a handout due to poor social advice and confidence issues. Few people, let alone women who get the attitude all their lives, respond well to someone who approaches them in ass-kissing mode because they want something.

 

Before a guy can really let his true self shine out in meeting women, he often has to unlearn some bad habits. PUA techniques are merely stepping stones to move someone past bad social habits.

 

As far as how they are used, bedpost notch or real relationship building, that's not a matter of the techniques themselves, but of the intent of the person using them. One person can take nitroglycerin and blow something up, while another uses it to prevent a full-blown heart attack.

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This is actually funny - you still didn't get that what they say and are attracted to are two totally different things. After her shagging with "dogs" now she wants a fool that would marry her. Don't be that fool because she will eventually get bored with niceness.

 

So what are you saying - that you should be with nutcases because you obviously attract them? Are they right match for you and your personality? What kind of results do you get by following your "way"? Are you happy with results?

 

I don't agree with you on your first statement. If she says she's attracted to a nice guy who will treat her well, I believe that. I wonder why you find it so hard to believe too.

 

What do you mean by niceness? When I think of this, I think of someone who is caring, loving, respectful, and dedicated.

 

As far as getting bored, sure, it's possible that a person will find another boring. This is why we date around, right? I really don't think a woman will become bored simply because you are treating her well. That doesn't make sense. I think a person becomes bored because there's no chemistry, common interests, etc.

 

**********

 

Peg, I'm also going to challenge you a bit here. You've created many threads on this same topic - pick up artists, reason to not act like a "nice" guy, etc. What is your point? If you believe so strongly that these techniques work, why are you posting about them on here so much? Go out and use them, come back to us when you are married, and tell us of your success.

 

Of course, I could be wrong, but I think you are not sure of what you are doing, and have come here looking for assurance. I think you are looking for women to say "yes, this works" and guys to say "yes, I have tried this and it works." Realize this will work on some women, but not on others.

 

What's most important here is what is right for YOU. Do you feel comfortable putting on David D's face and acting like him? Do you feel like you are being yourself? I can tell you when I tried his techniques, it felt very unnatural to me. What really struck me was when the girl I was dating said the joking had hurt her. That's not who I am. In fact, I used to do this teasing thing even before I met David D, and some girls liked it, and others were completely turned off by it. My ex fiancee told me it used to bother her too. I'm not really a person who goes around making fun of people's clothes, etc. I'm a sweet guy. I may say some things for a good laugh between us, but I don't think this is a way to attract a woman. I'd rather attract her with my own personality and sense of humor.

 

I will be the first one to stand up and say I have self-confidence issues, so I am not writing this thread to pounce on you. I have been working very hard on them through reading books on the subject and seeing a therapist. Unfortunately, some relationships with unhealthy, nasty people have set me back, but I am still working on myself, and have made alot of progress in the past several months. Me - I would much rather work on myself, love and appreciate myself, and find someone who will love and appreciate me. I know this is not possible until I love and appreciate myself. This is my goal, and once I have this self-confidence, I believe that I can do anything!

 

I am going to work on me, not paste David D's stupid techniques onto myself like some sort of bandage to repair the problem. I really think this is what you are doing, but I could be wrong.

 

I realize you don't agree with me, but I am only trying to help you and to get you to think outside of the box here.

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It's sad when people think that the answer to changing a behavior at one extreme is to go to the opposite extreme. That's easy (although the marketers of PUA type books don't want you to believe that of course)- what's harder - and far more rewarding - is finding the balance that works personally for you so that you don't lose the essense of who you are - you come accross as sincere because you are - but yet find a way to change your behaviors so that they are more effective for you.

 

I don't know any women who want a doormat, or any women who want a jerk (at least, not long term, maybe for a fling) - both are boring and get old quickly after the initial giddiness fades (and after a few times of that kind of giddiness, that's no longer desired, either).

 

Most women I know - myself included - want a man who is kind, compassionate, thoughtful and sensitive -- and loads of fun -- but at the same time is confident enough to have boundaries as far as being respected and treated well by people including his significant other. Someone who does the PUA "techniques" typically ends up being distant and cynical and those qualities can subsist even if the person decides not to use the "techniques" anymore.

 

I do know women who go for jerks - most often they are fragile (or at a fragile point of their lives) have low self esteem and are looking for an excuse - "all men are jerks" not to get close to someone other than physically.

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Peg, I'm also going to challenge you a bit here. You've created many threads on this same topic - pick up artists, reason to not act like a "nice" guy, etc. What is your point? If you believe so strongly that these techniques work, why are you posting about them on here so much? Go out and use them, come back to us when you are married, and tell us of your success.

 

Because this is ADVICE forum and I see a load of guys getting crappy advices all the time. And their dating fails every time but people stick with "you did everything right, it's their fault......" or "one of these days you will find someone right for you...". I think it's better not to give advice than to give crappy one.

 

They work for me and that is why I am "advertising" them here. I am not D.D. nor I want to be - but what it did to me is exactly what servedcold says - it helped me to act toward my romantic interests the same way I act towards my friends - being open, teasing, humorous, not being a servant.

 

It also helped me to overcome shyness which was a major breakthrough, not just dating wise but also my changed my behavior at work - I've been promoted to management and that was direct consequence of new assertiveness and "taking care of myself first" I've developed through PUA programs.

 

Some stuff from D.D. I never used, some stuff I think are plain crap, some things are against my morals so I won't use them. It is never said to put any mask on yourself or pretend to be someone else...it's about to put out what you have to offer in a more attractive way to females.

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It's sad when people think that the answer to changing a behavior at one extreme is to go to the opposite extreme.

 

That is sad indeed, but I've never said you should go for extreme change...just to get in the middle, to get best from both worlds.

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As long as you are being yourself, I think you are setting yourself up for success.

 

I couldn't help noticing the statement made in your first post:

 

So, what happened? He become a little envy because he saw that lately I got a lot of girls (none of them qualified as a good long term partner but that is another story)

 

I think the way we act determines what we attract, so this is why I find some of the PUA techniques concerning. Your statements furthers this belief I have.

 

So what are you saying - that you should be with nutcases because you obviously attract them? Are they right match for you and your personality? What kind of results do you get by following your "way"? Are you happy with results?

 

To respond to the above, no, I obviously should not be with nutcases. I don't think it's that I specifically attract them, although you would think that though, right? I think where I failed was choosing to stay with them once I had observed poor behaviors. I think what I need to change here - trust my gut more. The reason why I stayed with such people is because of low self-confidence, like I said before, I thought I couldn't do any better, didn't want to be alone, somehow thought their behavior was somehow my fault, because I was weak, insecure, etc. It really has nothing to do with me. I believe people act this way because of poor/rough upbringing. I failed, because I tolerated the behavior. The way to fix this is to work on my self-confidence, and therapy has been the key for me here. I need to dismiss people like this "right out of the gate" when I see the warning signs, so I am not set back again.

 

I've done alot of work on me lately, and I'm looking forward to meeting a nice girl and finding the healthy relationships I deserve.

 

I think you have a self-confidence issue also. I don't think reading a book on being a PUA is going to improve self-confidence. Again, I think it's a temporary fix. If you have this issue, it's going to keep biting you until you address it properly. You can't hide it forever. I learned that lesson the hard way many times.

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To add another facet to this discussion, the PUA books and media are merely the male oriented response to what women have been doing for decades, namely utilizing self-help and personal support networks to prepare themselves for dating and relationships.

 

How many men bought "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus," "The Rules," or "He's Just not that into You?" Women have been spending millions of dollars and immense amounts of conversation and therapeutic time discussing relationships since at least Jane Austen. The PUA phenomenon is merely one wrapper on the male version of the exact same thing.

 

In the past, men (self included) deemed it a frivolous waste to spend valuable time questioning or discussing relationships as a topic in themselves. Our job was to call the woman and ask her out (who was patiently waiting at home for our call), court her and provide for the resulting family. The model worked great except for women's choices and freedom were limited. Things have changed. Is it not a good thing that more and more men are seeking external outlets and advice with the goal of becoming more attractive and better relationship partners in a world where women are capable of doing everything men did 50 years ago?

 

Women's greatly enhanced freedom and choices in our society fuel the PUA culture when you think about it. Without that freedom and those choices, the PUA industry would not have existed in any mass way.

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Women with poor self-esteems and who don't get hit on a lot are the ones who fall prey to these methods.

 

Women who are used to getting hit on a lot hear it all, and are very good at filtering out this kind of BS and reject these guys and their lines.

 

It's like the guy who teaches men to use "negative hitting" on women. Does it work? Sure! But, you have to ask yourself, on WHAT type of woman?

 

If your goal is to get laid, then have at it! But, if your goal is to find an emotionally healthy woman with a good self-esteem and intelligence, then this stuff won't work.

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Women with poor self-esteems and who don't get hit on a lot are the ones who fall prey to these methods.

 

Women who are used to getting hit on a lot hear it all, and are very good at filtering out this kind of BS and reject these guys and their lines.

 

It's like the guy who teaches men to use "negative hitting" on women. Does it work? Sure! But, you have to ask yourself, on WHAT type of woman?

 

If your goal is to get laid, then have at it! But, if your goal is to find an emotionally healthy woman with a good self-esteem and intelligence, then this stuff won't work.

 

Amen......

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Women with poor self-esteems and who don't get hit on a lot are the ones who fall prey to these methods.

 

Women who are used to getting hit on a lot hear it all, and are very good at filtering out this kind of BS and reject these guys and their lines.

 

It's like the guy who teaches men to use "negative hitting" on women. Does it work? Sure! But, you have to ask yourself, on WHAT type of woman?

 

If your goal is to get laid, then have at it! But, if your goal is to find an emotionally healthy woman with a good self-esteem and intelligence, then this stuff won't work.

 

I'm no advocator for this "Pick Up Artist" stuff (actually, I'm not even quite sure what it is... I've just heard it mentioned a bit here on ENA, but never looked into it, heh...), but... I think there are some guys out there that just don't know how to attract a girl, no matter how "emotionally healthy" she is. Me included; I'm completely lost, in that department. I'd love to get "help" from somewhere, I want to bring out the "attractive" side of me, but I don't know how to do that. That's the *only* reason I'd consider looking into this PUA stuff, to learn how to bring that side of me out; and even then, it's not like I have poor intentions. I'm more interested in finding a nice relationship, rather than bedding as many girls as I can. Like I said, though, even if a girl is "emotionally healthy", it's not any easier to come off as "attractive" to them. In my case, no girl, "emotionally healthy" or not, is going to want to be with a shy, quiet, awkward guy.

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I get that, and that's fair enough.

 

But, wouldn't it be better to then work on your shyness as a whole, and not just as it relates to dating and women? I would have to assume you are then shy and quiet in most social and professional situations.

 

Doing things like toastmasters, joining clubs for your social interests, etc., I would think they would afford you more opportunities to grow as a person, and not just teach you tricks on how to pick up chicks.

 

Does that make sense?

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