Is this some wierd chemistry?

[Luke Skywalker]

First of all, I don't know if I'm a bad christian that is crossing the line by getting too friendly with a married woman and am on the borderline of some sort of emotional affair, or if this is just a harmless phase in my life that will naturally go away. Or if I'm a desperate person that is so hungry for a woman's touch that if any woman appears emotionally available to me then I'm going to zero in on her. Or, maybe I just want to connect with someone and feel good about connecting.

 

There is a married woman working at my office. As of recently I have been visiting her office, hugging her and kissing her on her cheek yesterday. (I hugged her once before, and she put her hand on her cheek motioning to kiss her cheak. It didn't click then. However, the next time I hugged her, a few weeks later, I did that and almost hugged her passionately). Today she sat beside me and put her arm behind me during a sales meeting. She doesn't do this to anyone else. This is just body language. Usually the conversation is just about business, or there is a strict business excuse to see her. But the tone of voice, style of interaction and touching is different to the conversation.

 

Prior to this above episode, I have been masturbating on my fleshlight about losing my virginity with her and imagining her telling me that I did a great job despite it being my first time doing it. This leads me to think that subconsciously, or on some level, I would like to get deflowered by her.

 

There is some sort of feeling, that is located on my chest, sort of like I cant put my finger on it. It's like I had to go into her office, chat her up and hug her and kiss her on her cheak or something would be missing that day. Sort of that feeling you get when you think that someone needs a smile and you want to give it to them. Now, while I don't think there is anything wrong with smiling at a married woman, I don't know if the above level of activity should be construed on the same level as merely smiling.

 

When I hugged her I felt happy and it made my day, and she told me that "I'm a nice person". I was flattered that she reinforced it that it blew me through the roof after she said that. It's like wow! It was a really nice feeling afterwards. I would then think about her and hug various pillows on my bedroom or listen to Jaci Valesques Cd's (Spanish gospel female vocalist - married woman is also Spanish).

 

I went to a convention a few months ago, we sat together and had lunch together and she joked about renting a hotel room. There is usually nothing sexual or romantic about conversations and it's usually just about business, or personal background.

 

I meet this lady back when I joined the office in 2006, September when I first noticed her. There was some nasty crash and burn with a girl I had a crush on I meet from lavalife because I felt she choose another guy to lose her virginity with, while I was looking for someone to loose my virginity with at that time to the point I went on AFF on November, 2006, but then decided that this was not for me. Since that time, I meet a few other women in my life that in some ways or another appear to be dealing with subconscious or unconscious conflicts with that first girl. I believe this married woman may be one of them. Because when I hug her, I feel exactly like how I felt when I was hugging that girl I had a crush on, hugging pillows, limerance, etc.... I don't know how I'm liking this married woman to her because she is not her.

 

The reason of the nasty crash and burn was I believed this other girl I had a crush on had a boyfriend and didn't tell me about it but was string me along in case her relationship didn't work out and just came to be because the guy dumped her as I was her second place. I then proceeded to AFF to look for a girl to deflower me and went to my dad -- who I felt cheated on my mom and was loose himself, and would thus give me an easy permission to proceed, but he said no and distracted me from proceeding.

 

Since then this was dead and buried, but it seems something is coming back to life with this particular lady. Now, I do not necessarily just want to lose my virginity and that's not a goal, yet thoughts are there to want to lose it with her and share to her that I'm a virgin and see if we can rent a hotel room together. It all seems to tie into some subconscious conflict that has occurred two years ago - which seems to have a heavy theme on 'cheating' (i.e. my crush cheating on me, my dad cheating on my mom, me wanting to lose my virginity with anyone, etc...)

 

Anyway, my values are dead-set against having any sort of involvment with a married woman. I've disclosed this to my mom and she is aware of that. I personally see it as harmless because the conversation or actual 'meeting of the mind' is always about business and it has never crossed that boundary. Whatever else is going on is really just inside my mind. However, it seems like there is still some weird chemistry somewhere that I cant put my finger on it. It's almost as though I'd like to passionately kiss her at some moment.

 

I'm not sure what this is or where it's going. I'm going to guess that she's going away on holidays, maybe this is some phase and when she returns back she could be a different person. But even so, I'm not 100% comfortable with myself on what appears to be playing with fire and don't understand why I would do something potentially contrary to my values unless it was some unconscious or subconscious psychological conflict playing itself out.

[Supa_gurl]

I think, as Christians, we all have our slip ups. I personally am trying to get past my last. I have to remind myself "Not perfect, just forgiven". It really stinks that people try to hold us up to a higher standard just because we are believers, when infact we are just as much human as anyone else.

Just don't act on your fantasies, and dreams. The worst you can do is to sacrifice your values and morals. That is the hardest thing to overcome. Pray about it, and soon your "Princess" will come and then all will be right with the world. ((hugs))

[lostandhurt]

One question: Would you or your lady friend be acting or talking like this in front of her husband?

 

You know this is wrong and so does she. Don't justify your actions with past problems. This has nothing to do with your religion, it has everything to do with being an honest MAN, and honest men do not do what you are considering. This affects more than just the two of you.....

 

lost

[savignon]

Your feelings seem to indicate that you would like to have a warm and loving relationship. An affair with a married woman will not provide the kind of romanticized feelings you get when you ...ahem...'think about her'. Look for an available woman and back up from this one. She needs something in her ego fulfilled and you will not be available for that. So, don't sit next to her at meetings....no more hugs/kisses. Start flirting with some ladies who are available and make it clear to her that you're not available...emotionally or physically...to a married woman. It might seem like a *hot* idea now, but it will tear you up afterwards.

[Luke Skywalker]

One question: Would you or your lady friend be acting or talking like this in front of her husband?

 

Yes, of course. If they are swingers. There are allot of those on AFF. In fact, some husbands like to watch people have sex with their wives. This is what is going on now a days. I didn't ask if they were swingers or anything like that. I had one swinger married woman offer to do me on her birthday but I withdrew since I didn't want to have sex with a married woman, even with her husband's express consent and participation (by watching).

 

I still think swingers is adultery, even with a husband's permission. I don't think a husband can permit his wife to commit adultery. That doesn't sound rational.

[Luke Skywalker]

Your feelings seem to indicate that you would like to have a warm and loving relationship. An affair with a married woman will not provide the kind of romanticized feelings you get when you ...ahem...'think about her'.

 

I'm not thinking of having an affair with her, I just talk about business.

After reading this thread, hopefully that will never cross my mind.

 

Look for an available woman and back up from this one.

 

I cant, by policy, look for an available woman unless she's already 90% interested in me or higher. Most women out there don't give me a second look or are not rushing up to me to talk to me or expressing interest. I want to sit back and look at threads about break-ups and divorce first so lessen my naivity about relationships. IN particular, that if there is a break-up or divorce, what happens with all the good-times or positive experiences in a relationship - they just go up in smoke and you regret the years of your life wasted on the wrong person? I'm a bit confused, but will be open to that in a month from now.

 

She needs something in her ego fulfilled and you will not be available for that.

 

What is going on? What does she need fulfilled? What are the dynamics here that I don't know about?

 

So, don't sit next to her at meetings

 

She sits next to me as she comes in later than I do!

 

....no more hugs/kisses.

 

Gulp. Ok. So I just have to pass her office. But suppose it just happens? The chemistry is so strong I just find myself doing it behind closed doors in her office. I usually go in for expired listings, (I share expired listings with her) in a secret deal. (We have a system in our office where each member pays $ 50 each to get expired listings with three months advance payment divided on six members, I made a side deal with her where she paid me $ 30 to try it out for one month).

 

The door is closed so nobody knows about the 'expired listings side deal arrangement', not because I'm hugging her or anything.

 

The only solution is to pass by her office without stopping by, like sprint through, or be on full guard.

[Luke Skywalker]

I think, as Christians, we all have our slip ups. I personally am trying to get past my last. I have to remind myself "Not perfect, just forgiven". It really stinks that people try to hold us up to a higher standard just because we are believers, when infact we are just as much human as anyone else.

Just don't act on your fantasies, and dreams. The worst you can do is to sacrifice your values and morals. That is the hardest thing to overcome. Pray about it, and soon your "Princess" will come and then all will be right with the world. ((hugs))

 

That's right, prayer is always the solution for any problem. Thanks for the ((hugs)) - that really hit the spot.

[jettison]

Yes, of course. If they are swingers. There are allot of those on AFF. In fact, some husbands like to watch people have sex with their wives. This is what is going on now a days. I didn't ask if they were swingers or anything like that. I had one swinger married woman offer to do me on her birthday but I withdrew since I didn't want to have sex with a married woman, even with her husband's express consent and participation (by watching).

 

I still think swingers is adultery, even with a husband's permission. I don't think a husband can permit his wife to commit adultery. That doesn't sound rational.

 

Whatever you do, don't scar yourself for life by making your first experience a married, watched one. Even a hotel is pushing the limits. It's true that there's no right way to lose your virginity, but at least make an honest attempt to be in some kind of relationship with a girl first.

 

As for your flirtation, these are perfectly normal for people who don't take them too seriously, and perfectly deadly and inappropriate for people who obsess about them. Innocent flirtations are healthy and natural when they're actually innocent.

 

It's also true that when you're deprived of something, and you're making it your goal to achieve it, it seems to take on this sick, perverted quality somehow. This is true with everything in life and not just sex. When we obsess about something, and it becomes too important, then whatever beauty if may have carried is lost.

[Luke Skywalker]

Whatever you do, don't scar yourself for life by making your first experience a married, watched one. Even a hotel is pushing the limits. It's true that there's no right way to lose your virginity, but at least make an honest attempt to be in some kind of relationship with a girl first.

 

That happened over two years ago and I withdrew. That's history for me.

 

What I mean to say is I do not have an "official" goal to lose my virginity. It seems to be something that cropped up in fantasy with this particular woman, but I DO NOT CARE, about losing my virginity in general with anyone. I'm serious about this and want to convey that here. What I like is feeling connected with this woman - as long as no lines are crossed.

 

I do not feel I'm obsessed about anything here, but just need clarification about the particular dynamics, but I think someone has already answered that.

[savignon]

Luke, you debunked my post line by line....are you really looking for a way out or trying to justify your actions? You are not 'trapped' into having this inappropriate relationship, but have given lots of reasons to continue the way things are. Sit between 2 people already at the meeting so she can't sit next to you.. come on, now! What I mean by her needing a fix for her ego is that a lot of married women are out there trying to get compliments/hugs/kisses/etc. that are missing from their committed relationships. So, don't be her ego fix. Other women get off on the idea of a guy losing their virginity to them...a guy who's that anxious/excited/willing to please can be a turn on...especially if that's something missing from the committed relationship. I mean if you're really trying to stop this, you'd stop the closed door secret meetings/hugs/kisses/sitting together/etc. It doesn't seem like you're ready for that ...?? I'm not judging you, man...just observing.

[Luke Skywalker]

Luke, you debunked my post line by line....are you really looking for a way out or trying to justify your actions? You are not 'trapped' into having this inappropriate relationship, but have given lots of reasons to continue the way things are. Sit between 2 people already at the meeting so she can't sit next to you.. come on, now!

 

I'm not debunking your post line by line, just providing clarification your advice can be more tailored to my particular situation.

 

The problem is the meeting is sparcely attended and I sat down at a time there was only a few people there with many chairs between them. However, I'll keep my eye out for that next time. Maybe avoid the meetings altogether if necessary.

 

What I mean by her needing a fix for her ego is that a lot of married women are out there trying to get compliments/hugs/kisses/etc. that are missing from their committed relationships. So, don't be her ego fix. Other women get off on the idea of a guy losing their virginity to them...a guy who's that anxious/excited/willing to please can be a turn on...especially if that's something missing from the committed relationship.

 

Intuitively, I suspected this to be the case. I believe that you are correct.

Marriage or committed relationships can be such complex dynamics. You have provided invaluable insight. Why am I doing this in the first place -- is this ego on my end too?

 

 

I mean if you're really trying to stop this, you'd stop the closed door secret meetings/hugs/kisses/sitting together/etc. It doesn't seem like you're ready for that ...?? I'm not judging you, man...just observing.

 

You are right. Ready for a "relationship" you mean, correct?

[savignon]

I meant "ready" to let go of the flirting with her/secret meetings/etc. Yes, I would say it's serving something on your end, too. Maybe you're afraid of being with a girl who is really available to you, so it's easy to flirt and have fun b/c it seems 'safe'...like nothing would really happen so you get to test out your skills, so to speak.

Just a guess...

[Luke Skywalker]

I meant "ready" to let go of the flirting with her/secret meetings/etc. Yes, I would say it's serving something on your end, too. Maybe you're afraid of being with a girl who is really available to you, so it's easy to flirt and have fun b/c it seems 'safe'...like nothing would really happen so you get to test out your skills, so to speak.

Just a guess...

 

 

I'm ready to let go of that right away if it is construed to be 'adultery' because it's contrary to my religious values -- even thinking about it is wrong. I want to go on the right path in life and obey all of God's commandments. This is black and white scripturally - what baffles me is how my mind can play tricks on me to make shades of grey appear where it's all really quite clear. This thread should not even be here -- seems I'm getting weak.

 

Anyway, from my end, I do not believe I'm afraid of being with a girl that's readily available. In my life-scope, the only woman who are readily available live in countries far away that I can not physically be with who seem interested beyond the 90% mark. The only women that are 90%+ interested in me are either in another country, province in some isolated place, or are married. I cant find a normal Christian girl that lives locally with that interest level anywhere, or any normal single girl for that matter.

 

I really hate to wave the 'incel' flag except as a last resort if other arguments fail-- but I'm afraid in this case this looks more like an 'incel' issue than one where I'm afraid to be with a girl that is readily available with. In case you don't know what 'incel' means it refers to 'involuntary celibacy' and any concept that is associated with it.

 

As far as THAT is concerned, I think jettison has correctly addressed at least that component of it:

 

Jettison stated:

 

It's also true that when you're deprived of something, and you're making it your goal to achieve it, it seems to take on this sick, perverted quality somehow. This is true with everything in life and not just sex. When we obsess about something, and it becomes too important, then whatever beauty if may have carried is lost.

 

********

 

In a sense he is right, there is going to be some sick, perverted component that's always going to be around and manifesting itself or raising it's ugly head. I'd more portray my connection with this married women a sick and perverted component that's related to a deprivation that's caused by the 'incel' issue. If that is feeding her ego, as you expressed it by some women being turned on by anxious, inexperienced virgin guys that seem eager to please, then that takes an even more deeper perverted dimension. Sort of like INCEL*square.

 

The fact of the matter is that all attempts of having a relationship or even dating have crashed and burned badly, or I don't feel it's easy to find qualified women for new relationships -- so I'm waiting until Feb 3rd to start over again for my own reasons. However, I will have to extinguish this if it's adultery.

 

Remember, a 90% interest level, so far, no single women out there are throwing themselves at me, and since no woman is throwing herself at me, it follows that no woman is available to me. This specific policy is in effect until February where I'll entertain or pursue women with lower interest level thresholds.

[waveseer]

 

Remember, a 90% interest level, so far, no single women out there are throwing themselves at me, and since no woman is throwing herself at me, it follows that no woman is available to me. This specific policy is in effect until February where I'll entertain or pursue women with lower interest level thresholds.

 

Are you planning to lower the threshold every month by 10% so in October if you still haven't been scooped up you will be open to all available women sort of like a Luke Skywalker Fire Sale?!

 

I don't mean to make fun, I just wanted to point out that if you might end up there anyway, why not start there now?

[Luke Skywalker]

Are you planning to lower the threshold every month by 10% so in October if you still haven't been scooped up you will be open to all available women sort of like a Luke Skywalker Fire Sale?!

 

I don't mean to make fun, I just wanted to point out that if you might end up there anyway, why not start there now?

 

It is necessary to take a break from women with lower than 90% interest levels so I can have more time to study break-up and divorce threads and identify and try to understand and identify with all the heart-breaks posted on those threads and identifying all the various variables and factors that could go wrong to crash a relationship or marriage. Heck, I feel cool when I read those threads and say, I'm glad that's not me since I don't have a relationship or marriage so it cant happen to me.

 

You know, I connected nicly with a girl last month that crashed and burned. The positive memories were undermined by the way it broke up. Yet, I still have the positive memories stored until an expiry date on February 3rd. By then I'm prepared to move on. In the mean time I want to study break-ups and divorces and all stuff about relationships because I think I'm beyond the point of just going out with women who have initial very high interest levels just to see it plumet over something stupid on the second or third date. Hopefully this will raise this dialogue up a notch from the INCEL assertion.

 

Remember, when people break-up, they cry that the time is wasted and the good memories are gone to waste. They don't say, oh, I enjoyed those great memories, I'm now in a state of bliss after the break-up and don't need another woman ever again. Do you notice that? More study is necessary to understand relationships from posted experiences on here - and studying into Doc Love's System dictionary as well to get a better perspective.

 

You know what, you cant have a firesale if a girl has a lower interest level beyond a certain point, because if she ain't interested, then there is nothing that can be done about that.

[theWalla]

Remember, when people break-up, they cry that the time is wasted and the good memories are gone to waste. They don't say, oh, I enjoyed those great memories, I'm now in a state of bliss after the break-up and don't need another woman ever again. Do you notice that? More study is necessary to understand relationships from posted experiences on here - and studying into Doc Love's System dictionary as well to get a better perspective.

 

Whether or not you see the time and memories of a failed relationship a "waste" is a matter of perspective, entirely. I think most people would tell you that while the pain of breaking up is very difficult, that there is a lot of value in the experience of feeling it and dealing with it and getting through it. It is not a waste at all; rather, it is a way of learning more about who you are, what you can tolerate, and what makes you happy.

 

I've noticed that you take a very scientific view of love and relationships. But I'm afraid you cannot just study relationships and hope to be successful at them. Every relationship is different, and "what works" depends on the two people involved and the timing and the world around you. Do you even know what you want out of a relationship? These are really things you can't learn by studying or making scientific observations about other people's experiences.

[waveseer]

You know what, you cant have a firesale if a girl has a lower interest level beyond a certain point, because if she ain't interested, then there is nothing that can be done about that.

 

I'm not sure what it is in you that you expect women to become interested in to begin with. You can absolutely raise a woman's interest level, it is the art of wooing and it has been around since the dawn of mankind. Become an interesting man and you will attract an interested woman.

[Luke Skywalker]

I'm not sure what it is in you that you expect women to become interested in to begin with. You can absolutely raise a woman's interest level, it is the art of wooing and it has been around since the dawn of mankind. Become an interesting man and you will attract an interested woman.

 

I think I've identified an issue that any short-lived relationships or encounters that I have gone through have crashed and burned and it's usually on some intangible sort of issue revolving around masculinity issues (i.e. too nice, second guessing myself, meek, quiet, etc..... or what would be known as AFC behaviour) To make life worst, I'm stuck in a job that requires these same skills to attract woman to make money - and it's called Real-Estate salesperson. I don't think it has anything to do with being interesting or not interesting. Currently I'm hitting the gym and have a personal trainer, and that's all I'm investing in to make me look more masculine.

[waveseer]

I think I've identified an issue that any short-lived relationships or encounters that I have gone through have crashed and burned and it's usually on some intangible sort of issue revolving around masculinity issues (i.e. too nice, second guessing myself, meek, quiet, etc..... or what would be known as AFC behaviour) To make life worst, I'm stuck in a job that requires these same skills to attract woman to make money - and it's called Real-Estate salesperson. I don't think it has anything to do with being interesting or not interesting. Currently I'm hitting the gym and have a personal trainer, and that's all I'm investing in to make me look more masculine.

 

What do you do for fun?

[Luke Skywalker]

I've noticed that you take a very scientific view of love and relationships. But I'm afraid you cannot just study relationships and hope to be successful at them. Every relationship is different, and "what works" depends on the two people involved and the timing and the world around you.

 

I'm not studying to hope at being successful at them, but to absorb as many dynamic variables as possible. Studying is fun.

 

Do you even know what you want out of a relationship? These are really things you can't learn by studying or making scientific observations about other people's experiences.

 

I'm not sure what I want out of a relationship -- it seems that I want something from someone which is why I was interested in this married woman.

 

I suppose it's just to meet the right person and get married eventually.

[Luke Skywalker]

What do you do for fun?

 

I don't have any specific activity that I do for fun as it's spread out all over the place. For example, I like watching stuff on youtube, reading stuff on the internet while listening to music vids on youtube at the same time, CD's, sipping Red Bull before hitting the gym and having a nice lunch afterwards to myself, going to a movie theatre, dealing with the legal system, my career, occasionally flying an airplane, etc.... it's all over the place. My lifestyle of 'fun', is mainly developed to be a solitary one.

[waveseer]

I don't have any specific activity that I do for fun as it's spread out all over the place. For example, I like watching stuff on youtube, reading stuff on the internet while listening to music vids on youtube at the same time, CD's, sipping Red Bull before hitting the gym and having a nice lunch afterwards to myself, going to a movie theatre, dealing with the legal system, my career, occasionally flying an airplane, etc.... it's all over the place. My lifestyle of 'fun', is mainly developed to be a solitary one.

 

Flying airplanes is interesting, tell me about that please.

[Luke Skywalker]

Flying airplanes is interesting, tell me about that please.

 

Well it's not done very frequently, so it's just a hobby of mine for now.

 

The type of airplane is a Cesna-172 single propellor fixed wing aircraft. Costs about $ 300 to take it in the air for an hour, with an instructor, and briefing prior to flight.

 

Last year I was planning to go to Cuba (I didn't mention above that I like travelling or where I have gone to), but instead of going on a vacation-solo, I took the money and went to flight school instead. I had a bit of problems arranging for that Cuba trip but realised the real reason I wanted to go to Cuba was because I wanted a cheap excuse to go on an airplane because I just love flying -- possibly even more than the vacation itself (plus I cant speak Spanish).

 

The first lesson was a familiarisation flight -- just to get used to flying. I almost flew too close to the CN tower that time and saw some awesome ariel views of Toronto.

 

The second lesson is straight and level flight. This means you have guage your altitude based on where the horizon on the windshield. The third lesson deals with changing altitude while you are flying. The fourth and fifth lesson deals with banking (turning the aircraft while flying). I am at the fourth lesson and stopped in July.

 

There is always a creepy scarey feeling when I go up in the air but I get used to it after a while. You are worried that you may crash into a jet or another aircraft so I always have to keep my eyes out. Once I saw something like a light on the horizon and thought a jet was coming at us and sort of freaked out, but the instructor said it was something else reflecting the sun that looked like it.

 

The scariest lesson, which I haven't taken yet, is known as spinning. The airplane goes on a free-fall while spiriling downwards and you have to break it and recover straight-and-level flight. Let's just say, I'm not there yet.

[JadedStar]

Yes, of course. If they are swingers. There are allot of those on AFF. In fact, some husbands like to watch people have sex with their wives. This is what is going on now a days. I didn't ask if they were swingers or anything like that. I had one swinger married woman offer to do me on her birthday but I withdrew since I didn't want to have sex with a married woman, even with her husband's express consent and participation (by watching).

 

I still think swingers is adultery, even with a husband's permission. I don't think a husband can permit his wife to commit adultery. That doesn't sound rational.

 

 

But you did not find her on AFF. You are WORKING with her Luke.

[Luke Skywalker]

That particular style of interest -- flying airplanes, are 'small interests' list. Other interests similar to those may include riding a train aimlessly to a desination and riding back return just to enjoy a train ride, or renting a new car that I never drove on before to have a change, or some other inexpensive activity. Going on a helicopter, skydiving, (ariel), or cheap solo-vacation are also listed interest.

 

These are known as small interest as any of those activities do not require a major investment (i.e. like a four week vacation in some distant country somewhere, etc...)