Upset and weary

[blueheart]

My husband and I met 12 years ago. Started living together on the 7th year. Married on the 10th year. Although we shared common interests, we had and still have problems communicating.

 

 

 

In my opinion the conflict became more intense upon living together. We've had some issues before, but we were young and only 'dating' at the time, so of course I think we thought nothing of them. Having said that, though, I cannnot discount all good times, though. He's taught me many things that no one else cared to teach me. He's also opened up my eyes to things I would have otherwise been blind to.

 

 

 

We were engaged on the day prior to moving in together on the 10th year. From there we anticipated getting married not long afterwards, but didn't get to it until 2005 or so...again due to petty arguments and misunderstandings which led to shouting matches that included name calling, swearing and making fun of each other. Even then when we did the marriage prep courses, we realized we weren't ready for marriage. We pushed still, and went to christian counselling where we did a 'test' for compatibility. The test scores rated us very, very low on the communication section. Very low. But the test in itself was flawed due to the fact that certain questions posed could be taken 2 different ways. I wonder in hindsight if we were just making up excuses so that we had a fighting chance. But on the other hand, due to us misinterpreting everything each other was saying, it wouldn`t be a surprise that we thought that about the test. Anyway, I was opposed to the counselling idea initially, because I didn't feel a counselor could possibly grasp what kind of problem we were dealing with when we were at home. It didn't go so well for several sessions, because I had kept refusing to participate. Then it went well for a short time, because we actually started doing the excercises together. But then we hit the bottom again when we didn't practice, and the counselor took us in separately and told me that perhaps I didn't love him. Not only was I sad to hear that, I never thought that. I didn't understand what she meant. From there we agreed that I was to propose meetings and we'd practice using the "I" messages and mirroring, so that we'd be able to communicate better. That didn't go as we'd liked, we only had a few in here and there. We married in 2007.

 

 

 

There are SO many specific events not mentioned here, SO many that I`m flooded with the pain of it all. I don`t know if it`s because I`m in denial of all this conflict, and that I had a big part do to with it, or that I felt most of it was my fault, or because I`m frustrated that my husband points it out to me. I know I have issues to deal with. I have insecurities and so I get defensive when I feel I`m attacked, get mad when I`m not understood and my husband just keeps rambling on without, in my mind, listening to me. I get so frustrated talking to him because there`s just so much history and pain that keeps coming up, mostly about my mistakes, because as he tells me, they keep recurring.

 

 

 

We are currently living separately as of last week. I am so torn - I don`t know how to break this cycle. At the same time I feel so judged that I`m not doing enough to save the marriage, judged that I`m not saying things right, judged that I`m not keeping my vows...I just feel like I`m never doing anything right.

 

 

 

Sorry, I`m not the greatest person at writing about things, so I`m sure my husband will be posting more on here about it.

[Sn0man]

Your text is too small to read, please make it normal size so people can read it.

[redhearts]

It's like you got all the warning signs in the world to not get in married, yet you still did. Is that something you constantly think about?

[Zeitgeist]

Your text is too small to read, please make it normal size so people can read it. could also hit "CTRL +" a couple of times.

 

Question to the OP: were there ever extended periods of time during which you felt everything was going well? It seems to me that you went straight from unsuccessful counseling right into marriage?? Why did you get married if counseling wasn't working so well?

 

Edit: I just saw redhearts' post. Sounds like he/she has the same question as me. Were you posting just to vent and to receive some support, or did you have something specific you wanted opinions about?

[redhearts]

Enlarge an ena'ers font and you will help him for a day, teach him to enlarge his own font and you will help him for a lifetime.

 

Hahaha, welcome to ENA blueheart, oh blue heart hahaha! Meet the genius r2h.

[Zeitgeist]

Enlarge an ena'ers font and you will help him for a day, teach him to enlarge his own font and you will help him for a lifetime.

Yes, but you could suggest it as a footnote to an actual reply instead of making a point of responding only if the poster enlarges the font. I doubt she meant to inconvenience anyone. Back on topic...

[waveseer]

blueheart, I was in a relationship where the other person would demand I said things a certain way before he would listen to me. If I said it "wrong" he would just shut me down and end the discussion. If this is one of the things that's happening to you I'd like you to know that he's not playing fair. It's not you, it's him.

[doyathink]

Enlarge an ena'ers font and you will help him for a day, teach him to enlarge his own font and you will help him for a lifetime.

 

Ahahaa...smart ass! I loved it.

 

My eyes! They feel like they're being dug outta my head with a knife!

 

 

OP....if you're husband is a member here...does he know who you are?

[Green Guy]

Hello.

 

I'm the husband.

 

I once found this site while researching some of our problems. I suggested back then we make use of it, but was met with resistance and mockery. Now that we're at extremes she was willing to post. I'm glad. I just wish it wouldn't always take being pushed to extremes before we act reasonably.

 

At least we're here now and already getting good advice. Thanks.

 

This gets a bit long, but we're speaking to each other as much as seeking input, and I believe if I'm not clear then it leaves everyone in the dark as to what's going on.

 

 

blueheart, I was in a relationship where the other person would demand I said things a certain way before he would listen to me. If I said it "wrong" he would just shut me down and end the discussion. If this is one of the things that's happening to you I'd like you to know that he's not playing fair. It's not you, it's him.

 

Can you give an example?

 

One thing we've often struggled with is her contention that I'm "controlling her and telling her what to say". In truth, I've never demanded she say things a certain way. I have suggested different, arguably better, ways in which things can be said. Usually for her own good, so she can be understood and get the proper response.

 

Words have meanings. I only point out to her that I can't "get" what someone means if they substitute words that mean different things than what they actually intend.

 

As someone above said, I also found the title of this thread and the intent of her posting vague while reading it. I had the advantage of knowing already what the point was, but I'm often left being expected to read her mind. It's the exact kind of thing for which I'd suggest alternate ways of phrasing, and ways to clarify what the point is so people understand what she means.

 

That's what you want when you speak or write something, isn't it? Yet rather than saying "thanks, I guess I was a bit vague, I appreciate the help" she'll shout "you think I'm stupid and can't do anything right, stop telling me what to say, you're trying to control me !!!!"

 

I'll then point out that if she wants to say things that are vague or even totally contradictory, it isn't reasonable to complain when people, including me, don't "get" her, which is a frequent complaint of hers. I'll say to her, out of caring, "you know people roll their eyes if you make no sense ... maybe you could explain what you mean more clearly instead of just starting your thought mid-sentence without relating it to the topic at hand?" To use a favorite phrase of hers : if I don't tell you, who will?

 

I say it kindly, because if I come off as a dolt to people I'd want to know it. If people have no idea what I'm talking about, I'd like to know, so I'm doing unto her as I'd have her do unto me. We're supposed to watch out for each other. She takes this as the equivalent of me saying "you're stupid and everything you say is wrong". That's not at all what I said, or how I said it, so I find that pretty offensive then I'm on the defensive and that isn't fair.

 

The stuff I suggest is typically along the lines of the things you'll read in relationship fix-it books. It's not my preference or my demand, it's just the effective way to communicate with others if you actually wish to be understood and to appear reasonable.

 

Real-world example : I nicely say that her worn socks shouldn't be tossed on the dining room floor when she gets home from work, and she makes excuses for it such as she's tired (as if she couldn't just as easily dump her socks in the hamper, which she actually passes on the way to the dining room!), then says I'm controlling for requesting she put away the dirty socks, then goes on the attack about something of mine that is admittedly out of place but isn't worn/dirty and isn't in the middle of a public room in the home, and certainly isn't the topic at hand - clean laundry in the bedroom I haven't yet put away, for example.

 

So I freely admit my stuff needs to be put away and I suggest she could say "I agree it's reasonable not to want worn socks on the dining room floor, while we're tidying up can you also put away your laundry?"

 

My suggestion is not controlling or demanding in any way, other than perhaps demanding she stick to the topic and reasonably admit it's not cool for adults to dump their dirty socks on the dining room floor.

 

That was a major issue, if you can believe it, and it actually took a counsellor agreeing with me before she admitted it was wrong of her to do this. Typical things like the toilet seat or fighting over the tv remote are no problem. Yet a grown woman throwing dirty socks on the dining room floor was somehow an issue.

 

She'll also conveniently "forget" all of her quirks/demands I generally comply with, even though it's not the way I would live if I were on my own. It's easy to forget because once I agree to something, I own it. I agree because I find it reasonable, even if it isn't my preference. I figure I'll get some goodwill by going along with it. But she'll toss her socks, agree not to do it again after an argument, then do it again the next day. Day after day.

 

](*,) ](*,)

 

 

I say "was" a problem, and she'll say I keep bringing up the past. This was years ago, but I should say "is still" a problem. The socks are put away, but the whole cycle where she evades, excuses, then changes topic and goes on the attac is still a hallmark of our interactions. So too her agreeing to something then not doing it, and then attacking me if I nicely ask what the deal is or suggest I'm irked that it's not getting done.

 

I admit my fault in enabling it all this time.

 

Why? She's sexy, smart, artistically talented, and a wonderful person with a good job. We share many interests, lead active lives, and she's very mature when it comes to allowing us each to have our own space, time, and interests. I value that very highly.

 

However there's one serious issue - she's totally unreasonable if anything seems to suggest she's in any way at fault for something or is mistaken or holds an "opinion" that isn't supportable. I put "opinion" in quotes because she isn't reasonable about the difference between opinion and (mis)statement of fact.

 

I'm not exactly stupid, yet she won't give much consideration to an alternate viewpoint or even clear facts I might present on a topic if it goes against her "opinion" at all. That leaves me wondering how we can converse about anything or learn anything new and grow.

 

Recently, for perhaps the first time ever, we looked something up together. I was unsure of a spelling, she told me her spelling and I felt we might both be incorrect. I was almost scared to say so. I'm happy to say that instead of blowing a fuse she agreed to go look it up.

 

That action alone could have prevented at least half of all our arguments, and I'm tempted to say more like 80%. All that's needed is an open mind and willingness to admit you might be unsure or wrong about something. Simple, reasonable adult behavior, yes?

 

Recently she was selling something online and getting no takers, and she was frustrated. I suggest some creative keywords to include in the ad. She then argues, not discusses, but literally angrily argues that she wouldn't use the item, or spend so much, for the purposes I was suggesting. So what? Some people definitely do, or might, which she admitted, and the words are free so why not just say "can't hurt to try, thanks" and include the keywords in the ad?

 

That's another supposed example of me telling her what to say, controlling her, and instead of being told I'm helpful or creative I'm told that I "overthink everything". Yet I'm able to sell lots of stuff while hers is still unsold. You'd think my help would be somewhat welcome, especially since my ideas have bailed her out of some major holes in the past.

 

 

 

 

She says I'm asking too much from her, and I point out I'm asking the bare minimum - that she be reasonable since she's an adult that wants respect from her peers and her husband, and that she do what she promises she'll do (within reason of course).

 

I believe there are also anger issues, and the supposed signs of passive aggression are all there. In the past there was outright hostility often, and what I've read in many books and been told by counsellors is verbal and emontional abuse. It didn't really bother me, so maybe the abuse wasn't emotional in my psyche but it did add up. I'm only human. Anyway, I count these types of behavior as simpy unreasonable.

 

I showed her the list of hostilty/passive-aggressive traits and I deeply respect that she had no problem admitting they apply to her. If confronted with a book listing tell-tale potentially serious issues that I admit apply to me and are causing me a lot of grief, by my own admission, I'd be pretty concerned and probably a bit contrite. She hasn't said anything about it.

 

 

I figured as people age, live together and marry, they'll want to grow up and make sense and be reasonable. I figure if people admit they have certain problems, they'll want to overcome them together. Especially if they want to raise a family. I want these things. Instead we're repeating the problems we had in our own homes and in our past, despite vowing we never would. We both had good families, and our parents are still together, but not necessarily in bliss and like anyone they weren't perfect.

 

We could learn from their mistakes, and help each other with our shared shortcomings, or we can drag each other down. I want the former, and she acts like she wants the latter at times. That's why she was told she might not love me, because if you love someone you don't want to act that way. In truth though, it's not cool to act that way to people you don't even like - being evasive, unreasonable, or hostile is just plain wrong.

 

I kinda figured we'd grow out of it, that I could set a good example and it'd make some difference. There was plenty of time ahead. Suddenly I'm getting too old to wait and she's getting too old to act that way, and it's getting in the way of my personal growth and, I fear, my health.

 

 

I'm by no means perfect, but when I ask for feedback she'll give me no specific examples when she says she has a problem with something. Like the intial post of hers, it's vague. She'll say she wants us to heal, but will offer no specifics on how. I offer up lots of ideas, usually have them all shot down, and I view that as an easy out for her not to take responsibility. Other times she'll go along half-heartedly then abandon the idea and later say she wasn't sincere about it to begin with.

 

Or if she does give examples of what I'm apparently doing wrong, they're usually easily refuted because they're not factual or not reasonable. Usually. Then she'll say "I can't remember" any examples, which is another easy out. It's a major concern of hers but she can't think of any examples? How am I supposed to learn or change anything then?

 

She essentially, and unreasonably I believe, wants it both ways - wants a smart husband but fights most reasonable or helpful things I suggest such as counselling, this website, self-help books, that an opinion might be misinformed, etc., unless we've gone to extremes of arguing and beyond then she can be reasonable for awhile. She says she can't remember things yet feels certain I'm mistaken, or as she sometimes puts it "f-----g lying", about what was said or done despite freely admitting I have a great memory, enjoys a new car I purchased for her nearly-exclusive use then has the gall to complain about having to put gas in it.

 

 

 

I don't think that's reasonable adult behavior, and I don't think I deserve that.

[Green Guy]

... Even then when we did the marriage prep courses, we realized we weren't ready for marriage.

 

Actually I insisted we weren't ready and needed to work on things, and you were very mad at me for stating the obvious.

 

 

We pushed still, and went to christian counselling where we did a 'test' for compatibility. The test scores rated us very, very low on the communication section. Very low. But the test in itself was flawed due to the fact that certain questions posed could be taken 2 different ways. I wonder in hindsight if we were just making up excuses so that we had a fighting chance. But on the other hand, due to us misinterpreting everything each other was saying, it wouldn`t be a surprise that we thought that about the test.

 

We've discussed this many times, and this might be the first time I realized you're talking about two different tests and using their names interchangeably.

 

The compatibility test was very sloppily worded, leaving me answering it one way and you interpreting it another. When we discussed it with the counsellor she agreed my criticisms were valid, and when we discussed the apparent incompatibilites it was clear they didn't exist.

 

Reminds me of the time I took that major cognitive test for employment at the big tech company, you recall? I'm not exactly clueless, right? Use it to your advantage.

 

 

For those wondering, one example in these compatibility tests was along the lines of "You have discussed how you'll rear your children." I'd put "yes" and she'd put "no" and we'd be deemed "incompatible" on that point.

 

The truth was we were young and far off from having children, so we'd discussed it a little casually but not formally in-depth because obviously it was a non-issue at that time. Most of the questions on which we were deemed "incompatible" really didn't apply to us. The ones that did apply to us we didn't really care about and still don't. I occasionally smoke a pipe outside, she doesn't smoke and if anything she find the pipe sexy last I heard. But according to the test we're "incompatible" as a supposed smoker and non-smoker.

 

As I said above, we later discussed the results with the counsellor and she agreed with my criticisms and more importantly my wife and I could both understand each other's points of view. In fact after hearing my wife's view, I was prepared to change some of my answer, because I thhought her way of looking at it made more sense. I'm pretty flexible that way. That's compatible ! If only it were always so easy.

 

It's so ironic you bring that up often as a concern, becuase it's actually one of the very few times we were totally reasonable and compatible. You let me have my say and supported what I had to say. Maybe because I was talking about the test and not you? Maybe because the counsellor agreed with me? You often accept ideas from others but fight the same idea if it comes from me. That stings.

 

Anyway, I honestly don't give a #### WHO is right or wrong, I just ask that it makes sense and that I know what's going on. I think that's pretty reasonable and not too much to ask. The test made no sense, and I proved it easily and you seemed to understand that at the time and the dozens of times we've discussed it since yet you're still bringing it up as a bad thing?

 

 

The communication test we failed because "we" refused to communicate like reasonable adults. Why else would we be in counselling for communication issues? As you would say to me, "DUH !!!".

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I was opposed to the counselling idea initially, because I didn't feel a counselor could possibly grasp what kind of problem we were dealing with when we were at home. It didn't go so well for several sessions, because I had kept refusing to participate.

 

You'd say you had issues with me, not bring up anything in counselling, then attack me for being the only one of us who really did the homework and spoke up. Rather than being appreciative I was sincere and came prepared to the sessions and come prepared yourself, you'd claim I thought nothing was good and everything was wrong and that you had no say. Well, why discuss what's not a problem at counselling? How can you have any say if you don't come prepared to say something? How am I the bad guy in all that?

 

 

Unfortunately I have to add this disclaimer now. I'm not telling you that "you must be thankful because I'm awesome and so much better than you because I showed up prepared" I'm just saying I did what I agreed to do. You chose to instead view it in a totally negative light, and mocked me for something I was actually doing right.

 

Sound like a familiar pattern? Then weeks later you admitted you never believed in the counselling anyway and didn't care what the counsellor had to say, if I recall correctly using the fact she'd been divorced as an argument that she wasn't qualified. If anything, it made her an expert, but you wouldn't even concede that much at the time.

 

 

 

Frankly, given all the women in the world who complain their husbands aren't even man enough to ask for help, it really upsets me to be attacked for willingly showing up prepared to counselling sessions.

 

I have many obvious faults, so if you have to criticize something try one of those. Don't citicise me for what I do properly. OK?

 

 

 

Then it went well for a short time, because we actually started doing the excercises together.

 

I'm glad you remember this, because when I mention it you get angry that I'm "bringing up the past".

 

We spent about 2 weeks, with very light effort, working through the couples & communications excercises we were given at counselling and it worked incredibly well. I was shocked how easily things were laughed off that in the past caused major conflict. So naturally we quit working on it, things quickly reverted to the old cycles, and "we" refused to revisit the excercises thereafter.

 

 

 

From there we agreed that I was to propose meetings and we'd practice using the "I" messages and mirroring, so that we'd be able to communicate better. That didn't go as we'd liked, we only had a few in here and there. We married in 2007.

 

That vow as made many times, very solemnly, that you'd call meetings and we'd practice the couples & communications excercises.

 

By "that didn't go as we'd liked" you mean that it basically happened not at all except the occasional time in response to my pleas along with a major argument. When I'd mention I wished we'd practice so we can avoid the problem cycles you'd get upset at me instead of simply admitting you made a vow and there's a problem.

 

That felt like a major betrayal. Ask yourself how you'd feel if it were reversed.

 

 

 

There are SO many specific events not mentioned here, SO many that I`m flooded with the pain of it all. I don`t know if it`s because I`m in denial of all this conflict, and that I had a big part do to with it, or that I felt most of it was my fault, or because I`m frustrated that my husband points it out to me.

 

Without examples how can you see that the actions +not you+ are the problem, just as the counsellors and the books have explained? How else can you realize how clear and repetitive these patterns are and that it isn't in the past - it's in the present and in the future unless something is done about it?

 

 

You're awesome. Truly uniquely exceptional in so many positive ways. That's why I bother. There are possibly many reasonable women out there, but they wouldn't match you in so many important ways. Seems to me it'd just be easier if you, as an adult, would be reasonable.

 

The negativity and irrationally refusing to be reasonable is way beneath you. Take that as a compliment please.

 

I mentioned a few specific events because people can't offer help if they don't know some specifics of the cycles we're repeating.

 

 

I know I have issues to deal with. I have insecurities and so I get defensive when I feel I`m attacked, get mad when I`m not understood and my husband just keeps rambling on without, in my mind, listening to me. I get so frustrated talking to him because there`s just so much history and pain that keeps coming up, mostly about my mistakes, because as he tells me, they keep recurring.

 

They're serious impediments to our growth as a couple and as individuals. I feel I owe it to you to kindly point out there are serious ongoing issues and the logical end to which they lead for all people who act unreasonably.

 

Respectfully, to blame the messenger for that is the definition of "denial".

 

 

We are currently living separately as of last week. I am so torn - I don`t know how to break this cycle. At the same time I feel so judged that I`m not doing enough to save the marriage, judged that I`m not saying things right, judged that I`m not keeping my vows...I just feel like I`m never doing anything right.

 

I've said this so many times, and so have counsellors and books as you know, that I am NOT judging YOU at all. I am asking you to realize these actions are not reasonable, and they get in our way.

 

It's not the way you would want me, your friends, your family, or your own children to act. You've often admitted as much, so why not hold yourself to the same standards?

 

It's a major issue, granted, but it's not "everything you're doing wrong". It's only one thing. It's being unreasonable. It's unreasonable to expect better than you give, and it's unreasonable to be surprised if things turn out badly given these cycles.

 

 

Sorry, I`m not the greatest person at writing about things, so I`m sure my husband will be posting more on here about it. [/size]

 

I still care enough to do that.

 

 

[blueheart]

It's like you got all the warning signs in the world to not get in married, yet you still did. Is that something you constantly think about?

 

 

Yes, I can see how you can get to that opinion. However, not ALL periods together are awful. While we were going through counselling and getting along for a period of time, the counselor reviewed our situation and seemed pleased and okay'd us to get married in the church. So in our minds, if we just kept working at it, we'd be able to conquer this thing.

 

The problem is is that we keep going in cycles of ups and downs, so this is where we're at now.

 

I only constantly think about it because I know a few other women who are going through a similar situation. Some are going through a state of confusion because if things were all that smooth, then there would be no problems for them to be confused about. But let's face it, there's going to be problems. I know I have issues of my own to deal with, as well as ours in the relationship.For some reason I have a hard time relying on him for things that I'm not good at, and instead I'm trying to be so self-sufficient and I suppose almost cold. It make me think perhaps I'm just not being grateful for what I have. These women that I know...well, I notice they start to question everything (which is where I'm at now) and so they just give up. Hands free. What's different about me is I don't want to give up.

 

Then I know a few women who are strong, dedicated and consistent with their vows. I ask myself, why can't I just do that? I have all the right intentions, but my actions never 'stay consistent'. Am I just being lazy? Probably. And yeah, that's not an excuse.

 

I'm trying to make transition with my life, and so this break may be the make-or-break situation. I have similar issues with my family, so in my mind, I believe it's more a habitual issue I've had for a long time. I don't believe I have these issues just with my husband.

[Green Guy]

It's like you got all the warning signs in the world to not get in married, yet you still did. Is that something you constantly think about?

 

I don't constantly think about it, though it's self-evident in the cycles.

 

I had good faith that someone who wanted to marry me, made vows publicly and privately, and is otherwise a wonderful, successful, functional person would at some point want to be reasonable like any respectable adult or any good partner/parent must be.

 

We don't have kids, and I guess that's where I finally drew the line.

 

As I said in one of my posts above, time flies and what seems like good fiesty attitude someone will mellow out of after enough years of bonding and trust ... well let's just say the kind of behavior that is excusable when you're 13 or 23 and single and not sure if you trust someone is absolutely not OK behavior when you're in your 30's and married and have known someone very well for over 10 years.

 

The red flags I should have seen were that from the start I had to prove myself, which I thought initially was charming and a good challenge. After awhile though it's like history doesn't count for anything, and I have to prove myself and defend myself about the same things over and over.

 

](*,)

 

Thanks very much for your input.

[Sn0man]

You could also hit "CTRL +" a couple of times.

Thanks Zeitgeist - i've been here 5 years and never knew I could do that!!

 

Originally Posted by ready2heal

Enlarge an ena'ers font and you will help him for a day, teach him to enlarge his own font and you will help him for a lifetime.

Smarta$$! LOL

[Green Guy]

Yes, I can see how you can get to that opinion. However, not ALL periods together are awful. While we were going through counselling and getting along for a period of time, the counselor reviewed our situation and seemed pleased and okay'd us to get married in the church. So in our minds, if we just kept working at it, we'd be able to conquer this thing.

 

The problem is is that we keep going in cycles of ups and downs, so this is where we're at now.

 

Well said. We knew all along our issue is a very common one that has very simple & logical solutions that only require a bit of effort, self-respect, and mutual respect. And of course being reasonable above all.

 

"Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you" would totally cover it, without any need for communication excercises or self-help programs.

 

I guess it sadly takes this long to realize that out of no effort nothing comes. Lots of promises with very little effort is not a recipie for success, is it?

 

 

But let's face it, there's going to be problems. I know I have issues of my own to deal with, as well as ours in the relationship.For some reason I have a hard time relying on him for things that I'm not good at, and instead I'm trying to be so self-sufficient and I suppose almost cold. It make me think perhaps I'm just not being grateful for what I have.

 

There's always going to be problems, and it'd be nice to discover new problems and deal with them together in a positive way if we weren't too busy going over the same old non-issues that are problems totally of our own making. Repeated ad-nauseum in cycles.

 

 

 

Respectfully, you sometimes seem very selfish and very ungrateful. Not just to me, but also for the blessings you have as a person. You're beautiful, smart, live in a wonderful home in one of the best cities on earth, so why be hostile?

 

You have no problem at all accepting things I do that are to your advantage - bills paid, vacations, entertaining outings, home, car, etc. Never once an argument there.

 

However if it requires a bit of healthy discussion, self-reflection, contrition, investigating together, or admitting an error or lack of knowledge, or simply just admitting something is a good idea - basically just normal resonable behavior when interacting with someone - then you put up the wall and start throwing daggers.

 

It seems to me that you go to very great lengths and complex twists of intent, words, and logic to evade simply saying "good idea, thanks" and yet you say I overthink things?

 

 

 

 

Then I know a few women who are strong, dedicated and consistent with their vows. I ask myself, why can't I just do that? I have all the right intentions, but my actions never 'stay consistent'. Am I just being lazy? Probably. And yeah, that's not an excuse.

 

Yes, I think you are being lazy. It takes one to know one. We're both that way. We've had so much good luck in life that we really didn't earn, or really didn't work that hard to achieve. Luck runs out though, and I'm tired of not earning things.

 

Integrity requires discipline. Being reasonable does too. So does anything that's good in life.

 

Consistency counts. It's called "being reliable" and "being reasonable" and that's the only way to earn respect from admirable people.

 

 

I'm trying to make transition with my life, and so this break may be the make-or-break situation. I have similar issues with my family, so in my mind, I believe it's more a habitual issue I've had for a long time. I don't believe I have these issues just with my husband.

 

You don't have these issues with just me, which is why I'm not the only person that's cared enough about you to say these things. Take it as a compliment, please.

[ErikT]

Wow, you both (blueheart and green guy) seem to like bring up the past quite a bit!

 

Well "you said" and "I did" and "she promised" and "back when."

 

(I'm sure I wont get very many rep points for this post, but...."

 

Green Dude - Lighten up, get over yourself, and listen to how you talk to your WIFE. In one post alone I saw where you called her "hostile", "very selfish and very ungrateful", and lazy. Is this how you really see your wife?

 

Do you lecture your wife as much as it sounds like you do? If you talk to her anywhere near as pompus and arragant as your posts sound, I understand why the two of you have problems. I'm sure that the roots of the problems come from both of you, but I believe that self reflection is always necessary before a joint problem can be addressed and fixed.

 

In your marriage vows, did either of you promise to honor one another?

 

Tackful as always,

Erik

[Green Guy]

Wow, you both (blueheart and green guy) seem to like bring up the past quite a bit!

 

Well "you said" and "I did" and "she promised" and "back when."

 

(I'm sure I wont get very many rep points for this post, but...."

 

 

When I'm under attack and history is ignored and repeated for years to our detriment, I can point it out in hopes it's aknowledged and addressed or I can just keep quiet and give up I suppose.

 

The past is prologue to the future if nothing is done about it. That's where we're at now, and it's time that cycle ends.

 

People don't go to counselling and say "everything is fine". You don't take your car to a mechanic and say "no, I won't tell you what the problems are or give you examples" do you? I'm trying to account for the problem patterns here, using clear examples so there's no ambiguity.

 

 

 

Green Dude - Lighten up, get over yourself, and listen to how you talk to your WIFE. In one post alone I saw where you called her "hostile", "very selfish and very ungrateful", and lazy. Is this how you really see your wife?

 

Did you notice I was responding to her saying these things about herself? Did you notice the very next line in which I admitted I'm also lazy?

 

I'm just objectively observing that's how her actions seem. It's not a judgement. Actions and persons are different things. Read the above examples yourself and let us know how you view those actions. Believe me there are plenty more than the few I've detailed here.

 

I can be difficult, sure. Much less so if someone is reasonable with me and actually does, ideally without complaining or being reminded, what they vow repeatedly to do. People who are relaible and resonable, and appreciative of what they have, win my respect not my venom. I think the world works that way for everyone.

 

Frankly I think a major part of the problem is that I ignored and enabled this for so long. I think in enabling it I dishonored her and I. These are things that should have been brought up and not tolerated a long time ago. My mistake.

 

 

Do you lecture your wife as much as it sounds like you do? If you talk to her anywhere near as pompus and arragant as your posts sound, I understand why the two of you have problems. I'm sure that the roots of the problems come from both of you, but I believe that self reflection is always necessary before a joint problem can be addressed and fixed.

 

In your marriage vows, did either of you promise to honor one another?

 

Tackful as always,

Erik

 

Lecture, no. Defend myself constantly, and have to illustrate these ongoing cycles, yes. If someone is in denial about problems, don't the problems have to be detailed? Isn't that what they do when loved ones perform an intervention on someone whose behavior is causing themselves and those that love them real grief? If you know of some other way, I'm sincerely eager to hear it.

 

I believe I'm honoring her and the marriage, and living up to my vows, when I say there's a problem that *WE* both need to work on together, and by still being willing to work on it despite getting shot down and mocked for years.

 

If my tone shows that I'm tired of it, well that's because I am. I also have a lot else going on that's tough to deal with, which is why I wished I had something that felt more like a partner than at times an enemy.

 

Had the past been addressed in the past, then it wouldn't be ongoing and I'd have nothing to say about it. Had we worked on things together long before reaching these extremes, my tone would be much more moderate and maybe I could even proudly say my wife helped me to learn to address things in a better way.

 

Regardless, I use phrases such as "my mistake" or "you make a good point" or "thank you for correcting me" a lot. She's heard them and all my friends and associates have heard them. I think it earns me respect and helps people overlook some of my faults or mistakes since no one is perfect, so I have no problem admitting my faults or errors. In fact I embrace them as a chance to learn and grow. I desperately wish I had some company in that regard. Self-reflection and honor are supposed to be 2-way streets when you're married.

 

Do you truly think a guy that reads relationship books and goes to couples counselling and asks his wife to work on communication excercises lacks humilty and self-reflection?

 

If venting years of pain and disrespect comes off as pompous then so be it. If you would take these kinds of betrayals and just "lighten up" then you're a better man than me. Or perhaps a sucker? Either way I respect you saying what you did. Thanks for your input. I'd appreciate hearing what your take is on the actual examples and actions.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

>>It's the exact kind of thing for which I'd suggest alternate ways of phrasing, and ways to clarify what the point is so people understand what she means.

 

Green Guy, you are trying to tell your wife how she should act, speak and feel, and are not listening. She titled her post, 'upset and weary'... we heard that, did you? She's upset, and she's weary and you're totally ignoring that and trying to even control the title of her post, assuming you know what she thinks and feels when obviously you don't.

 

You are also lecturing your wife like a parent, and beating her down emotionally and drowning her in words. To be honest, i read your posts and they made me weary and upset too. You are drowning her and yourself in words, like this is a debate class, not a relationship where people's feelings need to be addressed, and no one strong armed into doing what the other person believes is the 'only' way to do/be.

 

I think you both should consider individual counseling (on your own without the other) to get to the bottom of how you feel and what you should do. Not church counseling, but professional counseling.

 

I also have two books for you to read: 'The Verbally Abusive Relationship' by Patricia Evans and 'Emotional Blackmail' by Susan Forward. In these posts, i see a LOT of the negative techniques being used to try to force the one person to comply with the other's wishes.

 

You need to learn how to fight fair and negotiate fairly, and to stop pontificating and babbling about how things 'should' be when everything is negotiable and 'should' is a weak argument for trying to force someone into being/doing what you want. if you can't learn to do that, negotiate and fight fair, then there isn't much long term hope here.

[Green Guy]

>>It's the exact kind of thing for which I'd suggest alternate ways of phrasing, and ways to clarify what the point is so people understand what she means.

 

Green Guy, you are trying to tell your wife how she should act, speak and feel, and are not listening. She titled her post, 'upset and weary'... we heard that, did you? She's upset, and she's weary and you're totally ignoring that and trying to even control the title of her post, assuming you know what she thinks and feels when obviously you don't.

 

Thanks for your reply. I'm extremely upset and weary too. Has that come accross?

 

Women say they want guys to express their feelings and be willing to talk through problems, but in reality it turns out to be b.s. I forgot that men aren't supposed to have feelings, or want to talk through a problem. They should just pay the bills and fix the problems and "shut the #### up."

 

That describes a lot of her dad's existence and mine's too. I'd prefer not to live that way. Is that so bad?

 

I'm honestly not convinced you've actually read things here without bias. No, I am not telling her how to act, speak, or feel. I am saying that a person can't reasonably fail to be clear, then complain if people disregard them because they're not making sense. Big difference. As she often says to me, "DUH !!!".

 

 

It might not be clear to you that we exchanged several emails about starting a thread here beforehand, so yes I did know exactly what the purpose was. I didn't assume anything.

 

Also you may not have noticed but someone before me stated that it wasn't clear to them if she was just venting or asking for help, and if so what she specifically wanted help with. I simply agreed that it was vague.

 

 

 

You are also lecturing your wife like a parent, and beating her down emotionally and drowning her in words. To be honest, i read your posts and they made me weary and upset too. You are drowning her and yourself in words, like this is a debate class, not a relationship where people's feelings need to be addressed, and no one strong armed into doing what the other person believes is the 'only' way to do/be.

 

Great, when will my feelings be addressed then? How about my specific examples?

 

 

I think you both should consider individual counseling (on your own without the other) to get to the bottom of how you feel and what you should do. Not church counseling, but professional counseling.

 

I also have two books for you to read: 'The Verbally Abusive Relationship' by Patricia Evans and 'Emotional Blackmail' by Susan Forward. In these posts, i see a LOT of the negative techniques being used to try to force the one person to comply with the other's wishes.

 

You need to learn how to fight fair and negotiate fairly, and to stop pontificating and babbling about how things 'should' be when everything is negotiable and 'should' is a weak argument for trying to force someone into being/doing what you want. if you can't learn to do that, negotiate and fight fair, then there isn't much long term hope here.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions. There's perhaps nothing in the world I'd rather have than to fight fairly and negotiate fairly with my own wife.

 

I know about verbal abuse. In the past she's been quite verbally abusive at times.

 

We have some good books. "Overcoming Passive-Aggression" was extremely illuminating. I wish I'd read it a long time ago. Reading the list of symptoms of P-A and Oppositional-Defiant Disorder was also quite a revelation.

 

When we went down a list of P-A, O-DD and some other problem behaviors together one day and she, totally of her own free will and with no discussion or coersion from me, wrote down which of the 20 or so symptoms she felt applied to her. The tally was around 17. Damn high score, wouldn't you say? One of the ones we did not score against her was "drinks to excess" yet ironically recently, and in the past, some real problems have come from her drinking to excess although it's rare that it happens.

 

We did the same for me, listing which traits applied. My score was considerably lower, by which I mean less than 5 and most of those were benign such as "lateness" and "procrastinates", and we basically agreed on which traits applied to each of us with only a couple variations. This was all done amicably, we discussed it, etc.

 

I don't have the exact sheet we worked from handy, but I list the traits for P-A and O-DD for you below. Please suppose for a moment I've had to deal with many of those traits regularly for a very long time. You still think the only problem is that I'm possibly an a-hole?

 

Ambiguity

Avoiding responsibility by claiming forgetfulness

Blaming others

Chronic lateness and forgetfulness

Complaining

Does not express hostility or anger openly

Fear of authority

Fear of competition

Fear of dependency

Fear of intimacy

Fosters chaos

Intentional inefficiency

Making excuses

Losing things

Lying

Obstructionism

Procrastination

Resentment

Resists suggestions from others

Sarcasm

Stubbornness

Sullenness

Willful withholding of understanding

Negativity

Defiance

Disobedience

Hostility

Frequent temper tantrums

Argumentativeness

Blaming others for mistakes or misbehavior

Acting touchy and easily annoyed

Anger and resentment

Spiteful or vindictive behavior

Aggressiveness toward peers

Difficulty maintaining friendships

Academic problems

[ErikT]

After reading your posts, I do not claim to know you in any way, shape, or form. But I do believe that after reading your posts, several traits can be assumed. Using the list you posted, which I do not know is the same list of 20 you originally referenced, I believe that a heck of a lot more than 5 apply.

 

I don't think you are an a-hole. I believe that you both have issues with communicating. Individually you have an issue that affects the interpersonal communication between the two of you.

 

 

Ambiguity

Avoiding responsibility by claiming forgetfulness

Blaming others Applies

Chronic lateness and forgetfulness

Complaining Applies

Does not express hostility or anger openly

Fear of authority

Fear of competition

Fear of dependency

Fear of intimacy

Fosters chaos

Intentional inefficiency

Making excuses Applies

Losing things

Lying

Obstructionism

Procrastination Applies

Resentment Applies

Resists suggestions from others Applies

Sarcasm Applies

Stubbornness Applies

Sullenness Applies

Willful withholding of understanding

Negativity Applies

Defiance

Disobedience

Hostility Applies

Frequent temper tantrums

Argumentativeness Applies

Blaming others for mistakes or misbehavior Applies

Acting touchy and easily annoyed

Anger and resentment Applies

Spiteful or vindictive behavior

Aggressiveness toward peers Applies (if you consider those on the forum as peers)

Difficulty maintaining friendships

Academic problems

[BeStrongBeHappy]

Green Guy, your response is exactly what i was trying to point out... that you two should NOT be trying to play each other's therapists or hall monitors looking for defects and picking each other apart.

 

The worst kind of relationships are formed when you try to 'out-shrink' each other by pointing out what you think are flaws and pathological problems in the other person. You are working out your own personal issues on each other, that should be worked out in personal therapy, not in attempts to label the other person with a laundry list of

'what's wrong with you'.

 

The books i recommended point out how destructive this behavior is to a marriage and individuals, and you need to stop if you want your marriage to be viable. Deal with your own personal issues in private therapy, and consider marriage counseling once you've each had a bit of private therapy to get your thinking clearer.

 

A marriage should be about supporting each other and nurturing each other's happiness, not some mental contest or constant picking apart of the other person or pointing out what you think are their problems. If there are problems and issues, then take them to a professional, don't try to become your partner's therapist when you are not qualified to do so.

[Green Guy]

You're correct, you don't know me at all.

 

Most of those absolutely do not apply, and if nothing else my own wife can vouch for that.

 

I blame no one, ever, for my problems or mistakes.

 

Zero negativity. I never twist something into something worse that it actually is or what was actually said.

 

I make no excuses, ever, for my problems or mistakes. I can list reasons for them, usually self-reflectively blaming myself funny enough, but never make excuses.

 

Procrastination, sure. I can be slow. I never make an excuse though, I flat-out admit I'm procrastinating. Not perfect, but better than bs.

 

Similarly, I don't complain. I can hardly stand anyone that does. If people can't tell the difference between expressing sincere concern for serious problems and offering good solutions I am fully willing to participate in vs. complaining ... I have no idea what to say.

 

I am in no way whatsoever sullen, even at the worst of times. At my greatest lows, I'm unhappy for a day or two of course, but even then I take it out on no one and nobody would even guess I've suffered a personal tragedy.

 

Resentment? Absolutely. I resent making promises in good faith and having them broken, among other things. Everyone gets fed-up eventually and will react with some hostility or even be argumentative. The responses I've gotten haven't reflected anything specific I've actually written, or in some cases seem out of left-field, so I'm naturally going to offer a rebuttal. I'd call it discourse at this point, not arguing.

 

I'm not at all normally sarcastic, and in fact I hold sarcastic people in low regard. I suppose I might seem sarcastic here, though I'm not sure how. A specific example might help. Anyway there's a difference between acting that way all the time and acting that way when you're at your emotional wits' end.

 

Most of the others you've listed are just as wrong. I can understand how you might see it that way, but between this and dealing with some other quite serious things in real life I'm not too worried if I'm misperceived here.

 

Thanks for your input.

[ErikT]

Either way I respect you saying what you did. Thanks for your input. I'd appreciate hearing what your take is on the actual examples and actions.

 

I just re-read the entire thread. Besides be remided that I can hit Ctrl + to make the font larger , I did not see any actual examples (other than socks in the living room!)

 

Erik

[Green Guy]

I just re-read the entire thread. Besides be remided that I can hit Ctrl + to make the font larger , I did not see any actual examples (other than socks in the living room!)

 

Erik

 

 

I made a few others, but what I'd rather do is focus on behaviors and I feel I've outlined the problem behaviors clearly.

 

What about the example of hearing an adult with a good job complain about gassing-up a new car that was bought at no cost to them in order to serve their need and use? Does that only sound selfish or childish to me?!

 

Or the example of hearing her frustration at not being able to sell something online so I, being someone who successfully sells a lot of stuff online, suggest helpful keywords and get verbally crapped on for it. Am I wrong to prefer perhaps hearing "thanks, those aren't bad ideas."?

[Green Guy]

Green Guy, your response is exactly what i was trying to point out... that you two should NOT be trying to play each other's therapists or hall monitors looking for defects and picking each other apart.

 

I believe you're presuming a lot, and haven't addressed anything I actually wrote.

 

I think there's a difference between what you're characterizing here, and someone lovingly saying "I have a concern that some of these things may apply to us." You may have missed the part where we silently graded ourselves as well as each other, and agreed almost totally?

 

That's quite different, I think, than telling each other what's wrong. Instead it's actually self-reflection, isn't it?

 

 

The worst kind of relationships are formed when you try to 'out-shrink' each other by pointing out what you think are flaws and pathological problems in the other person. You are working out your own personal issues on each other, that should be worked out in personal therapy, not in attempts to label the other person with a laundry list of 'what's wrong with you'.

 

It's not about personal flaws, it's about "what is preventing us from resolving things and understanding each other". It's about "what is rational and reasonable" whether you're trying to get along with me, her, or anyone on else on earth.

 

 

How about this ... plush white carpet, which I worked hard to pay for. Someone starts painting. Am I an ass for asking nicely that some sheets be put down to protect the carpet? Is that controlling or is it resonable? If I'm mocked for asking that, is it wrong for me to say it's not cool to mock me or should I shut up and go talk to a therapist because I care about my assets? Why should I even be put in the position to have to ask an adult to put down a protective covering when they're painting?

 

I know, I'm a man so I should just say "that's OK honey I'll clean it up or buy new carpeting now here's some cash why don't you run along and do some shopping !!"

 

Now I am being sarcastic.

 

 

The books i recommended point out how destructive this behavior is to a marriage and individuals, and you need to stop if you want your marriage to be viable. Deal with your own personal issues in private therapy, and consider marriage counseling once you've each had a bit of private therapy to get your thinking clearer.

 

A marriage should be about supporting each other and nurturing each other's happiness, not some mental contest or constant picking apart of the other person or pointing out what you think are their problems. If there are problems and issues, then take them to a professional, don't try to become your partner's therapist when you are not qualified to do so.

 

 

What "I think" are problems? Did you read any of those examples?

 

I think what you're saying is that rather than asking, pleading, or trying to convince an adult to be calm, rational, and reasonable, I should instead just "shut the #### up" and go find a calm, rational, reasonable adult.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

If everything you do irritates each other and you are constantly finding the need to 'correct' the other person, then perhaps it is true that you are deeply incompatible and should perhaps consider divorce.

 

Sometimes people are just too different in their outlooks on life and expectations of how to be happy that they just can't live together without neverending conflict. And if you've been 'negotating' for years to try to find a medium and can't, then perhaps that is your answer: time for divorce.