Do you think that gays, some gays, that is, discriminate against straight people also?

[FarthestEdge]

This is textbook sexual harassment. Talking about sexual things in front of a person when it makes them uncomfortable in the workplace is sexual harassment. At least that is what I've been taught in the orientation for most of the jobs I've had.

 

It's not sexual harassment until she informs them that it makes her uncomfortable. They are all participating in a conversation, and are not considered to be sexually harassing each other.

 

One needs to say "I consider that offensive and would appreciate your restrain in front of my cubicle..."

 

Only after being informed of her discomfort, and continuing on with said behaviour does it become sexual harassment.

 

Um maybe, they feel comfortable enough in front of her to think she is NOT offended by it? Who knows.

 

But you have a responsibility to define your boundaries for others before you can say they are violating said boundaries....

[lady00]

It's not sexual harassment until she informs them that it makes her uncomfortable. They are all participating in a conversation, and are not considered to be sexually harassing each other.

 

One needs to say "I consider that offensive and would appreciate your restrain in front of my cubicle..."

 

Only after being informed of her discomfort, and continuing on with said behaviour does it become sexual harassment.

 

Um maybe, they feel comfortable enough in front of her to think she is NOT offended by it? Who knows.

 

But you have a responsibility to define your boundaries for others before you can say they are violating said boundaries....

 

I am not familiar with the laws. Sounds like you are, so I'll defer to you. I was just repeating what was told to me at a job orientation. They never mentioned that the person has to express discomfort in order for it to be considered harassment. They pretty much just said to not say anything that may be remotely construed as offensive by anyone in the hallways or in the elevator (basically any public space in the office). I was under the impression that if a person felt uncomfortable, there was no need to mention it to the person making them uncomfortable, that they could just go and report it right away. I guess I misunderstood that then if you are more familiar with the laws on this.

[agent1607307371]

I haven't read all the responses, but there are many reasons she may not be included in the idle chit chat - maybe she doesn't try to join in, maybe they don't think she is interested, and there are reasons she may not get the best hours.

 

"Obscene" is a personal judgement, and I don't see why they shouldn't be talking about their SO's. I can't judge on anything else because you haven't told us what constitutes obscene for your friend.

 

To me it sounds like your friend is just not used to being in a space where hetero isn't the norm.

 

I haven't read anything where they have been rude "to" her. Rather that she hasn't been pandered to as the straight person and the work environment isn't one she feels comfortable in.

 

 

Also, there's an assumption that because gay people will experience discrimination that they will be all fluffy and extra careful not to hurt anyone elses feelings. That is not how things work. People can and do get tired and bitter.

[unabashed]

The people at your friend's workplace could just be a group of inconsiderate individuals. They may be gay, but they don't represent the "gay people." I'm pretty sure that there is no such organization. We are all human, first, and some of us are nicer than others. It's hard to say from your posts if there is anything going on that's really discrimination, but it sounds like it's, at the very least, an uncomfortable situation for her. Given the actual number of gays vs non-gays in the world, it's odd to find a whole group in one setting. If I were in her shoes, I'd discuss it with someone like her boss or an HR person. No one should be made to be uncomfortable at their job, and maybe it's just a matter of raising some awareness.

[lady00]

No one should be made to be uncomfortable at their job

 

Yes, I think this is really the bottom line.

[Pressfit]

The company I work for is very,very touchy about any of this stuff concerning workplace discrimination whether it be sexual, ethnic, race, age or anything of the nature.

In fact we have to complete the company "Code of Conduct" training and be tested every year. I have been watching the general nature of this convo here and I was thinking that if this happened at my employer there would be some people in some seriously deep doo-doo.

[lady00]

The company I work for is very,very touchy about any of this stuff concerning workplace discrimination whether it be sexual, ethnic, race, age or anything of the nature.

In fact we have to complete the company "Code of Conduct" training and be tested every year. I have been watching the general nature of this convo here and I was thinking that if this happened at my employer there would be some people in some seriously deep doo-doo.

 

Same with the place I will be working when I graduate. They are very very strict about this stuff. They don't care about the person's intent or whom the comments are directed towards. People will get in serious trouble regardless. They emphasize that it's best to just not even touch certain subjects while at work.

[lady00]

I

"Obscene" is a personal judgement, and I don't see why they shouldn't be talking about their SO's. I can't judge on anything else because you haven't told us what constitutes obscene for your friend.

 

....

 

Also, there's an assumption that because gay people will experience discrimination that they will be all fluffy and extra careful not to hurt anyone elses feelings. That is not how things work. People can and do get tired and bitter.

 

As to the point about obscenity...at the place where I will be working they don't care whether or not the intent of the speaker is harmless. They only care about who overhears it and how they may feel about it. It's a totally subjective thing and if a person is offended by a comment heard at the office, even if it's not directed toward them the company will take it very very seriously and investigate. Guess it depends on the local laws and how willing each company is to enforce them

 

As to the point about discrimination...I'm part of a group that gets discriminated against a lot so I have a bit of a sense of what that's like It doesn't make it acceptable to treat people this way. It's not right. No matter what the people dishing it out have been through. I've had hurtful things hurled my way due to bigotry, it doesn't make me go out be mean to or discriminate against innocent people.

[Pressfit]

Same with the place I will be working when I graduate. They are very very strict about this stuff. They don't care about the person's intent or whom the comments are directed towards. People will get in serious trouble regardless. They emphasize that it's best to just not even touch certain subjects while at work.

 

 

You're absolutely right. Don't even touch on these matters. You never know how co-workers are going to take things said. I don't care if it's even in a joking manner. Someone else might be in earshot also.

 

BTW it's a multi-national corporation I work for. About the biggest.

[JadedStar]

It's not sexual harassment until she informs them that it makes her uncomfortable. They are all participating in a conversation, and are not considered to be sexually harassing each other.

 

One needs to say "I consider that offensive and would appreciate your restrain in front of my cubicle..."

 

Only after being informed of her discomfort, and continuing on with said behaviour does it become sexual harassment.

 

Um maybe, they feel comfortable enough in front of her to think she is NOT offended by it? Who knows.

 

But you have a responsibility to define your boundaries for others before you can say they are violating said boundaries....

 

You are So wrong it isn't even funny. NO it is NOT only harassment when she says it makes her uncomfortable. They should NOT be having those conversations. PERIOD. By the time it gets to smoeone having to express their discomfort that means the behavior has already gone way too far.

 

I think people need to be more aware of this before they find themselves fired or in court. It blows my mind that people still are not aware of these things.

[JadedStar]

I am not familiar with the laws. Sounds like you are, so I'll defer to you. I was just repeating what was told to me at a job orientation. They never mentioned that the person has to express discomfort in order for it to be considered harassment. They pretty much just said to not say anything that may be remotely construed as offensive by anyone in the hallways or in the elevator (basically any public space in the office). I was under the impression that if a person felt uncomfortable, there was no need to mention it to the person making them uncomfortable, that they could just go and report it right away. I guess I misunderstood that then if you are more familiar with the laws on this.

 

No, you were right. Farthest Edge coulnd't be more wrong.

 

I've been in hr for a long time and this is NOT tolerated. Especially since this is a large corporation. What that means is there is even more awareness about what is and is not acceptable and virtually every employee working for a large company signed something at some point saying they are not to engage in sexual chats in the workplace. Signing a "code of conduct" is very common practice these days in mid to large size companies. Just because you might have forgotten what was in that document or handbook is no excuse for violating any policy.

 

You don't chat about it, forward it in an email, nothing. You are there to WORK, not talk about your weekend gang bang or whatever else risque you did over the weekend. If you have a friend at work you want to talk to about that you do it OFF company property.

 

The person offended does NOT have to make them aware first before it is considered harassment. It is that mindset that has gotten people fired or on the witness stand. And an employer WILL take action because if they do not they will be held liable. They can be held liable either way but if they don't take action they will be in very grave trouble.

 

These days it is taken so seriuosly that even factories that used to be much more laid back dont' tolerate this sort of thing either. That is why they have HR people on site most of the time. Companies got tired of being in court all the time for employees who felt harassed. A company that turns a blind eye to it will be socked with charges they most likely can't afford and if they can afford it they don't want their reputation tarnished by showing up on a court dockett.

[FarthestEdge]

Mine was not a legal opinion. Just, to me, a common sense one.

 

Some people are offended by blasphemy

Others take offense to sexual innuendo

Others are offended by nothing.

 

To me, if you are going to accuse people of sexual harassment, then you need to first tell them that they have crossed a line. Different industries, and indeed, different workplaces all have their own unique culture. If someone spends 10 years in one environment, and then moves to another, they cannot be expected to know what the unspoken boundaries are.

 

We are talking about words here, not actions. People should not automatically LOSE their jobs and have to carry a stigma of sexual harassment, because someone else expected them to know what their personal booundaries were.

 

I work with truckers. Some of them aren't the most politically correct, or socially conscious individuals. I have heard a few things that offended me. I didn't go running off to my boss crying sexual harassment. I either spoke directly with the offender, or to someone who works alongside, and basically said, "I would prefer you(he) not make those remarks in my presense."

 

No complaints filed, nobody fired, no customers lost. No hostile work environment. Just a simple request and it was respected.

 

That's my opinion. But I did want to clarify that it is NOT a legal one. But even that discussion is moot, as the laws vary.

[pianoguy]

You don't chat about it, forward it in an email, nothing. You are there to WORK, not talk about your weekend gang bang or whatever else risque you did over the weekend. If you have a friend at work you want to talk to about that you do it OFF company property.

Good lord. Are you allowed to think about sex or is that not allowed either?

 

This is only one system of ethics, there are others. Having worked as a waiter, I can say that most waitresses are quite explicit about their sex lives in conversations. As long as it doesn't create an uncomfortable work environment for somebody, and as long as such conversations don't take place in front of customers, it doesn't bother me.

 

One of the most beloved and longest-serving waitresses (Anna) at my last restaurant was popular mainly because she had an incredibly obscene sense of humor and made the time fly by for everybody else. If somebody had said Anna was being sexually inappropriate the manager would probably have laughed, and I would have too. Anna didn't mean it in a harmful way and and it improved morale among the staff.

 

The OP has dropped from this thread, but we don't know what kind of environment she's in. It's possible she's not in the standard corporate environment. In either case, and from a simple standpoint of fairness, unless the gentlemen in question are doing this to intentionally make her uncomfortable, she should tell them before complaining to the boss or taking legal action. It's sincerely possible that they don't have the slightest clue they are offending somebody. If some of the waitstaff were offended by Anna we would all have been surprised.

 

I don't profess to know the law on this, but I've yet to work at a restaurant where this isn't the norm, and frankly I wouldn't want to work at a restaurant where everyone was walking on eggshells in fear of a lawsuit. Every professional culture is different, the law doesn't acknowledge this, but this is just a reality of the non-corporate world.

[JadedStar]

When you are on the job you are there to work, not spark anyone's libido. You say "good lord" as if you are aggravated yet look at the OP and countless others who say GOOD LORD when they have to go to work yet have to overhear raunchy conversations.

 

Having the good sense and tact to realize that not everyone is very thrilled hearing about sexual conversations when they are there to work is a good thing. Everyone has to work for a living and that environment should be free from raunch and sex chat.

 

Try looking at this from the other person's viewpoint. These laws are in place because workers were running amuck talking trash and smack and making their more conservative peers feel very uncomfortable when they went to work.

 

if someone can't refrain from talking trashy in a professional environment it really makes me wonder about their level of tact in life in general. There is a time adn a place to talk about your sex life - like a bar perhaps with your friends.

 

And waitress or not pianoguy, any waitress deserves to go to work and serve food wiwthout her ass being slapped or drunk guys drooling on her hands as she serves them. And just because a waitress might be takling trash with the guys and encouraging it does not mean she is not breaking rules and she DOES make it harder for her coworkers who do not want to do that to be comfortable on the job. Should a food service employee deserve less respect than someone who works in an office?

 

It is disgusting to think that just beacuse she might work in a place that serves beer that she should have to be treated like nothing but a skirt.

 

And the OP i believe mentioned that this person does work in a fairly large sized company. But that is a moot point.

 

This post is not to slam you pianoguy, because i think you are a good member here, it is just to perhaps inform you of the sexual harrasment laws that are in place for a good reason.

[lady00]

I just know that in the one I will be in and in many others, such behavior would not be tolerated and people would be fired, regardless of the intent of the person recounting their sex life or telling a joke. So many law suits have been filed over jokes. Oh, and just because rules are not enforced doesn't mean they don't exist.

[lady00]

Good lord. Are you allowed to think about sex or is that not allowed either?

 

You start of with this...which is taking what people are saying about sexual harassment to the extreme and making it seem ridiculous. I mean, this is obviously a rhetorical question you've posed here but sexual harassment isn't something to be taken lightly, IMO.

[JadedStar]

You start of with this...which is taking what people are saying about sexual harassment to the extreme and making it seem ridiculous. I mean, this is obviously a rhetorical question you've posed here but sexual harassment isn't something to be taken lightly, IMO.

 

I agree. His post really just made light of what is a serious issue for many people. Asking 'can you not think about sex either' was a sarcastic statement considering that thinking about it and chatting it up while others can over hear are two entirely different things.

 

I mean who among us REALLY wants to hear a group of people talking about their sex life while we are working on our job? And if someone DOES want to hear it, take it off the clock and the company premises. Have some respect for the people around you.

 

not to mention once you let people talk about it on the job the next step is they begin talking about it to people who don't want to hear it and begin being very overt, making people uncomfortable.

 

Companies have this strict policy so that things dno't get out of hand and people are not made to feel afraid to speak up for fear of losing their job. Back in the 60s it was quite okay for some women to have to go to work as a secretary everyday and be at the mercy of her cocky and inappropriate boss. These laws were put into place for very good reason.

[lady00]

Guess I should be glad I'm going to work for a company that is really really anal about harassment or statements that could be construed as offensive by anyone. I am really relieved that I most likely won't have to deal with an environment in which I feel like such things are ignored as normal banter. I get enough of that outside of professional environments, I'd like to know I can have some sort of safe haven where I can actually be productive!

[annie24]

interesting that the OP's title is about discrimination, not sexual harassement.

[JadedStar]

Annie that is because the OP didn't realize that what occurred WAS sexual harassment. She didn't know that. Now that she does perhaps she can appropriately advise her friend.

 

Education is not a bad thing. I don't think keeping that knowledge from her was going to help her much. Her friend has a MUCH better chance bringing this up as harassment vs discrimination from not being gay. That would be an ambiguous complaint and hard to prove. Sexual harassment was the real "crime" being committed by these fellow employees. Better to stick with what is obviously occurring vs an issue that would be harder to argue.

[annie24]

i agree that telling the supervisor "my coworkers keep talking about their orgies in front of me" (or whatever, OP hasn't actually stated SPECIFIC examples of what inappropriate things were said) is a far different complaint than "my coworkers don't include me in their chit-chat and i get all the lousy hours."

[JadedStar]

Right. The latter will not hold as much weight and if she brings up their orientation the tables could turn and make HER look like the person who is being discriminatory. It is always better to state the facts that are arguable vs the ones that are ambiguous and hard to corraberate.

 

If she states they are gay and discriminating against her it makes her look like she is holding a glass of spoiled milk. The employer might wonder why their sexual orientation is coming into the discussion. And with good reason. their orientation isn't really a cause for concern. it is their BEHAVIOR that is in question.

 

If i had that complaint came to my office i would quickly tell the employee that their sexual orientation has no bearing on the workplace. But if she came to me to speak about sexual conversations taking place within her earshot, i will be on alert and acting accordingly.

[annie24]

yeah, it shouldn't matter if the coworkers are gay or straight or whatever....... if they are talking about sexual things, she can bring it to the boss to complain.

 

i'm wondering if the OP would be as upset if she worked at a place with straight people and they were talking about sexual things.....

[JadedStar]

I have told people who i have counseled about potential sexual discrimination chats to always talk on the job as if their CEO or president were within earshot. If they wouldn't want him or her to hear it, then it might not be appropriate. That enables them to easily understand if something is appropriate, or not. People make the mistake of getting really comfy with coworkers and stretch the bar - it isn't good practice because that person might think wow he/she overstretched it and then they go complain.

 

I don't give any of this advice to be a fuss budget. I am a very free spirit who is fairly liberated but on the job there is no place for too much liberation in the area of sexual inuendos. I only give it to help employees avoid lawsuits, corrective action or firing. And in this economy not many can afford to lose a job over inappropriate behavior.

[annie24]

I have told people who i have counseled about potential sexual discrimination chats to always talk on the job as if their CEO or president were within earshot.

 

yeah, that's a good guideline ..... i should keep that in mind myself!!!