Sex on a first date

[Luke Skywalker]

If she opens up like that to you on the first date then she could be doing that to other guys, and without any proper STD testing, you do not know what STDs she may be passing on to you (condoms aren't 100% effective and don't work on all STDs, and you cant test her for STDs if you just meet her) either so the prospect is very risky -- unless she is really a virgin girl, which if that's the case she'd be a nutjob to lose her virginity like that rather than someone really important to her that she knows.

[doyathink]

If she opens up like that to you on the first date then she could be doing that to other guys, and without any proper STD testing, you do not know what STDs she may be passing on to you (condoms aren't 100% effective and don't work on all STDs, and you cant test her for STDs if you just meet her) either so the prospect is very risky -- unless she is really a virgin girl, which if that's the case she'd be a nutjob to lose her virginity like that rather than someone really important to her that she knows.

 

Lets turn this around now. If HE opens up like that to you on the first date then HE could be doing that with other girls, and without any proper STD testing, you do not know what STD's HE may be passing on to you!

 

Since the dawn of man, it's been 'kosher' for men to sleep around as often as they like, and with whomever they like. If it's 'kosher' for men to do this...then it's just as 'kosher' for women too. Women who do this are not ho's...they simply want to put another notch in their bedpost....ya know...like men do!

[Nixee]

Lets turn this around now. If HE opens up like that to you on the first date then HE could be doing that with other girls, and without any proper STD testing, you do not know what STD's HE may be passing on to you!

 

Since the dawn of man, it's been 'kosher' for men to sleep around as often as they like, and with whomever they like. If it's 'kosher' for men to do this...then it's just as 'kosher' for women too. Women who do this are not ho's...they simply want to put another notch in their bedpost....ya know...like men do!

 

Thank you doyathink! haha... I was about to post this same thing

[rnorth]

Two of my best relationships started out this way; but I am pretty irresistible!

[Luke Skywalker]

Lets turn this around now. If HE opens up like that to you on the first date then HE could be doing that with other girls, and without any proper STD testing, you do not know what STD's HE may be passing on to you!

 

Since the dawn of man, it's been 'kosher' for men to sleep around as often as they like, and with whomever they like. If it's 'kosher' for men to do this...then it's just as 'kosher' for women too. Women who do this are not ho's...they simply want to put another notch in their bedpost....ya know...like men do!

 

That's not really fair because the ball is really on the women's court as far as stuff like that is concerned and not on a guy's court. Its her choice whether she wants to be sexually aggressive with a guy, or if she is receptive to a guy's advances, and the guy really has no say in this unless he wants to risk a crash and burn, slap in the face, or a police whistle. So, I think a girl is more responsible in those type of matters. So, if a girl accepts a guy's advance, or if she makes an advance same thing.

 

My post is gender neutral anyway and do not see as to how it could be singling out any person or any sex. But, you know, if some types of women fall for these jerky types of guys who push for sex on the first date and don't think about getting them STD tested because they are trying to woo their affection by sex and think they can get any other girl they want anyway without a hassle and they are doing them a favour by having sex with hre, then it's consistent with their choice to go with those type of guys anyway. Any real gentleman will not push a girl for sex on a first date.

[doyathink]

Batya! Where are you when you're needed? I'm not even going to touch this....

[Nixee]

That's not really fair because the ball is really on the women's court as far as stuff like that is concerned and not on a guy's court. Its her choice whether she wants to be sexually aggressive with a guy, or if she is receptive to a guy's advances, and the guy really has no say in this. So, I think a girl is more responsible in those type of matters. So, if a girl accepts a guy's advance, or if she makes an advance same thing.

 

My post is gender neutral anyway and do not see as to how it could be singling out any person or any sex.

 

This is operating under the general assumption that ALL guys just generally are open and up for it though.... and that just isn't true. I've known a fair amount of guys who actually move fairly slow as well, just as many women do.

 

It is all personal. We shouldn't generalize too much... there are always people out there who break all these "rules"

[Crazyaboutdogs]

It takes two...it is not just the responsibility of the woman. Of course it is in the guy's court as well...if he is asking for sex or expecting sex then he is equally responsible for sex happening. If it is the woman asking for sex, the guy can still say no. The responsibility is on BOTH sides...but that is the whole double standard where a guy is allowed to ask and is even expected to ask, but if the woman agrees to it suddenly she is held solely responsible for it...she is looked at in a bad way whereas the guy "is just doing his job".

[Imprecision]

Now, I'm sure someone will disagree with me furiously over this. It's important to keep in mind we are all adults, looking for intelligent conversations (instead of arguments)...

 

While some guys say that they wouldn't mind a woman putting out on the first date - of these guys, maybe a portion is telling the truth. A woman, however, acts to her advantage if she refrains from this.

 

1. First of all, just because a guy says he doesn't care about a woman's sexual habits, doesn't mean he actually doesn't. It's safer to assume most guys are prigs on some level.

 

 

2. Second, it's not about fairness, as some above commentators have argued. Maybe the "double standard" is unfair, in the sense that men have greater freedom than women. But this "double standard" is a fact in all societies. It's no good arguing against this.

 

 

Most commentators, even the most liberal on this board, will agree that a category of "promiscuity" exists, at least in theory. Now, how would you know whether someone is "promiscuous" or not? There is no agreed-upon standard. It's no secret that in most social circles, there are running jokes and anecdotes about a designated "promiscuous" person. Now, in theory, this "promiscuous" person has done nothing wrong, except she has gone out on many dates, and has put out consistently on all of them.

 

So it is to the advantage of a woman to portray herself as slightly chaster than her peers.

 

Again, this is not about fairness. Neither is this a moral issue. It's just practical.

 

Another proof is that when men talk about a woman they respect, they will generally refrain from discussing her in sexual terms. If someone insists on discussing the said woman in sexual terms, then the others will be offended.

 

I'm sure some intelligent fellow can analyse the above in terms of power structures, structural oppression, deconstructionism, etc. However insightful these ideas are - all women live in the real world.

 

Some women, who put out easily, are also very accomplished. I'm friends with many such women, and I respect them greatly. Nevertheless, I would strongly advise all of my blood relatives and close friends to guard themselves better.

 

3. Third, a man actually likes to earn sex. After a while, free sex is no good. You need to fight for it.

 

I would like to explain this point in depth, but I've written too much already. Maybe someone else can expand this for me.

[doyathink]

To counter your comments....

1. Maybe the women doesn't care what the......gentleman thinks. Maybe....she's out for pure sex because she's horny, and never cares to see that man again.

 

2. Say you're right...so?! Again, not all women care what a man thinks about her....she may be thinking the same thing about him. If he's that easy, who says he doesn't sleep with any available woman...she may be using HIM for sexual gratification.

[Imprecision]

Doyathink

 

That's quite true. I've never thought about it that way.

 

I guess it depends what a person wants. Once a person figures out what he or she really wants, that person should find the best plan for acquiring it - social circumstances being one part of the calculation.

[Luke Skywalker]

The responsibility is on BOTH sides...but that is the whole double standard where a guy is allowed to ask and is even expected to ask, but if the woman agrees to it suddenly she is held solely responsible for it...she is looked at in a bad way whereas the guy "is just doing his job".

 

I think there is a greater liklihood of sex happening on the first date if a woman is into a guy to have sex with him rather than the other way around.

 

While in theory what you are saying may make sense, in reality, the rejection rates of gals is childsplay compared to guys. A gal may feel bad about getting rejected by a guy she's really into although having lots of options, while a guy may not be able to find anyone (you see allot of that here on enotalone!). So, when you tell me that a guy could say no, that's probably rare occurrence compared to the other way around, where most of the time it is the girl who ultimately decides if anything is going on that way. You cant ignore power dynamics and assume they are fair and then use a double standard argument. Women have way more power than guys do in these type of matters and because they have more power, they have to accept the responsibility. Remember, a guy cant cry rape if a woman is overly aggressive, or dupes him into having sex with her and be taken seriously, while a woman can easily blow a police whistle, and put a guy in jail on a even a false rape charge. So, these whole power structures or dynamics will cancel out any 'double-standards' that may exist or even overcompensate for them.

[doyathink]

well then, maybe the guys that you speak of need to learn how to have better self control. If women are the one's who control whether or not that sex is going to happen that night, then what does that say for the male gender? I have to disagree with you here....I've know a few men who didn't want it on the first date.

 

Women don't have more power...if anything, what you're saying is that men have less willpower, and don't have control over their own thoughts and body.

[Luke Skywalker]

well then, maybe the guys that you speak of need to learn how to have better self control. If women are the one's who control whether or not that sex is going to happen that night, then what does that say for the male gender? I have to disagree with you here....I've know a few men who didn't want it on the first date.

 

But a few guys would be statistically insignificant, heck, I would jump into that bandwagon and say I've never had sex period, let alone a sex on a first date. That would be out of my mind unless there was some blue moon.

 

Since I'm talking about something that's foreign, I may as well throw another wrench into this discussion. Women can reproduce, guys cant. If a woman has sex with guys, chances are she could become pregnant and another guy wouldn't know whose child it is, or may potentially raise a child that isn't theirs, creating societal sanctions to loose women who go around making babies.

 

Women don't have more power...if anything, what you're saying is that men have less willpower, and don't have control over their own thoughts and body.

 

I do not understand what you are saying, but I will reiteriate what I said since I don't think you get what I said.

 

In terms of who is doing the rejecting and choosing or blowing a police whistle, I respectfully disagree. Show me how many threads you can see on here about women complaining they cant get a boyfriend, then compare it to the amount of guys making the same threads about not being able to find even one girlfriend.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

There are lots and lots of women who can't get boyfriends...those type of women don't seem to come on ENA but I have certainly known plenty in my life who had trouble finding a boyfriend.

 

What doyouthink is saying is that men not rejecting a woman who wants sex on the first date has to do with willpower. Both women AND men can indeed exercise control over their sexual urges just like they can exercise control over other desires such "gee, I want that BMW but I can't afford it" or "gee, I would love to give my boss a piece of my mind but I don't want to risk getting fired". It is not that difficult for women AND men to say NO if sex is requested by the other person. What is driving BOTH sides to say yes to sex on the first date is letting the genitals rule the brain. Again, BOTH men and women have the power to say NO...it is a matter of whether or not they CHOOSE to exercise that power. The double standard is very much alive and well in this day and age that is a fact of life...however, just because it is alive and well, doesn't make it right....by the same token, however, if a woman decides to have sex with a man within minutes of knowing him, she should be doing it with the understanding that no matter how she justifies it, the double standard is still alive and well and she will have to accept that with this double standard, many men (and there are plenty of women who promote the double standard) are going to view her differently than the man who engaged in sex with her. It is basically like anything in life which is unfair...sometimes we just have to accept it because we are powerless to change trends.

[Nixee]

But a few guys would be statistically insignificant, heck, I would jump into that bandwagon and say I've never had sex period, let alone a sex on a first date. That would be out of my mind unless there was some blue moon.

 

Since I'm talking about something that's foreign, I may as well throw another wrench into this discussion. Women can reproduce, guys cant. If a woman has sex with guys, chances are she could become pregnant and another guy wouldn't know whose child it is, or may potentially raise a child that isn't theirs, creating societal sanctions to loose women who go around making babies.

 

Wait wait wait....

 

So loose guys can't go around making babies too?

 

Just because one doesn't carry around the child for 9 months does not mean one does not conceive of it.

On the contrary, men are capable of producing many more offspring in a quite shorter time than women. This logic makes no sense whatsoever to me.

 

Guys CAN reproduce. They cannot give birth.

[ycmanvs]

I agree with this as I posted above. Sometimes, two people meet...and they get along, and they are sexually compatible...and they enjoy eachother's company and it lasts and it turns into something meaningful. This is not the usual way things are done because most people are careful and have boundaries and are afraid to just let their physical needs take over. They wake up the next day and they regret what they did.

Just because you have sex on the first date, does not make you a bad person, or promiscuous...it may be the first date you've had in years, and things just clicked.

The problem is that there are no guarantees, so if you have sex on the first date, you risk not knowing much about the other person, so you don't know their sexual history, or how serious they are about you. If you wait to have sex, you may be able to find some of these things out, but there are no guarantees there either.

 

Just do what you feel comfortable doing. There is no secret recipe for dating.

[doyathink]

Wait wait wait....

 

So loose guys can't go around making babies too?

 

Just because one doesn't carry around the child for 9 months does not mean one does not conceive of it.

On the contrary, men are capable of producing many more offspring in a quite shorter time than women. This logic makes no sense whatsoever to me.

 

Guys CAN reproduce. They cannot give birth.

 

Apparently Luke didn't read the memo this morning about men and reproduction.

 

jk Luke. lol

[Luke Skywalker]

There are lots and lots of women who can't get boyfriends...those type of women don't seem to come on ENA but I have certainly known plenty in my life who had trouble finding a boyfriend.

 

The type of dialogue is usually different between a guy not being able to find a girlfriend vs a girl not able to find a boyfriend. Again, most threads on here from guys complaining indicate that they never had a relationship or that they simply have no options, while it appears that the impression is that most single attractive women have had their share of experience with bad boys and boring nice guys and despite they have lots of options are simply super-picky and have priced themselves off the market which is why they have trouble finding a boyfriend.

 

What doyouthink is saying is that men not rejecting a woman who wants sex on the first date has to do with willpower. Both women AND men can indeed exercise control over their sexual urges just like they can exercise control over other desires such "gee, I want that BMW but I can't afford it" or "gee, I would love to give my boss a piece of my mind but I don't want to risk getting fired". It is not that difficult for women AND men to say NO if sex is requested by the other person.

 

Right, but a guy is way more likely to be rejected from that request or expectation than a gal is. A guy could look like a pig for making such a request and also go down on a prospect girl's esteem, and be lumped like one of those other pathetic losers that just want to have sex with her and be obvious about it. Why do you think there is a profileration of seduction books and stuff out there made for guys? Because guys asking directly for request for sex or expecting it on the first date come accross as desperate and pathetic and would likely just get rejected. So, I don't see how this is even normal or proper for a guy to do.

 

The point I'm making is there is no real double-standard because it's compensated by other factors, such as difference in power dynamics both socially and in law and while those dynamics exist it sort of undermines the concept of a double-standard.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

First of all, there are a lot of really nice girls that can't get dates...in fact, often, if a girl doesn't give off seductive "you will get lucky" vibes, she will indeed have a hard time finding dates. Do not assume that all women have endless men to choose from...yes, there is a certain amount of pickiness and yes, if a woman is willing to settle for anything there will always be men to date...but the point is that the women who are more selective and want quality over quantity have a harder time..just like the men. Perhaps the men who are having problems are too busy running after the women who have everyone flocking at their feet and are ignoring the "wallflower" women.

 

As for your argument that men are looked upon badly if they ask for sex so thereforeee they learn seduction...but that is the point....the sleazy men woo the women with seduction and love words, bed the woman, are regarded as heroes to emulate while the woman is looked upon as trampy. There is your double standard. Do you think either sex goes around saying "hey, let's get naked and do it" of course not...it is always done by seduction, inuendo and often the good old alcohol excuse by both parties.

[chocolates]

There are lots and lots of women who can't get boyfriends...those type of women don't seem to come on ENA but I have certainly known plenty in my life who had trouble finding a boyfriend.

 

 

What the?????

 

Type of women???

 

what?

[Crazyaboutdogs]

What the?????

 

Type of women???

 

what?

 

Was there a specific question you had? Most of the women on ENA have relationship problems...while there have been a couple of threads from women who are upset about being perpetually dateless and boyfriendless, the majority of women are posting on here because of issue with their partners or ex partners. The perpetually dateless and boyfriendless women do not have a high representation on this forum, but that does not mean there are very few of them in the world...it just means that they don't come to this particular forum. This is what I meant when I was responding to Luke's post.

[Carmine]

One night stands are not very gratifying, for me at least. A lot of other guys will say otherwise, but a lot of other guys usually are full of crap as well.

 

Luke, I understand what you're saying, but you're viewing things the wrong way. Women can appear to have all the power to a guy if he's just a shy guy who's watching a ton of guys flock to a girl. If he doesn't have time to stand around and watch the women up on a pedestal and is too busy going out and meeting women, then HE has the power since so many women are exposed to him. A player will think he has nearly all the power over women, so he'll think he's too good to commit himself to any particular one. A decent guy who's looking for a strong relationship will view the distribution of "power" to be pretty much equal. (With all this mention of power, it feels like we're talking about politics, not sex/dating =p).

 

Now, I also think it's kind of dumb for women to whine about the double-standard. While the genders should be equal in every other way (in law, in rights, in economics), you can't avoid the fact that we're different when in comes to sex. It's built into our instincts and many other species' instincts - males naturally want to spread their seed to as many females as possible. They are interested in quantity - that's why males produce hundreds of millions of sperm every day. Females want quality. Because they can only carry and nurture one or several eggs at a time, mating with a ton of different males will do them little good. They want males with the best genes, preferably the alpha-male.

 

Add 6 million years of evolution. While our desires are different (pleasure has replaced the need to reproduce as the driving force behind sex), humans still follow the same model. It's part of the male role to sleep around more, so thus society accepts and even praises men who get with a lot of women. It's NOT part of the primitive female role to sleep around, so thus women who get with a lot of men are labeled tramps. This is millions of years of programming in our brains and is not going to change anytime soon.

 

So yeah, men have an advantage over women, but things even out. We have to take initiative a lot more, get over the fear of rejection, AND, not to mention, cover the bills. If one day society changes so that there's no double-standard, great, but if that happens, then women can't expect to keep all the advantages they have. =p

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Humans are not fish, we have much more highly evolved brains and are expected to use it even when it comes to matters of sex....so to use the biological/physiological argument to shoot down complaints of the double standard just doesn't wash. That's just an excuse to keep the double standard alive and well.

[Carmine]

Humans are not fish, we have much more highly evolved brains and are expected to use it even when it comes to matters of sex....so to use the biological/physiological argument to shoot down complaints of the double standard just doesn't wash. That's just an excuse to keep the double standard alive and well.

 

If we have so much control over matters of sex, then why do women still prefer to be chased? Why do they prefer to be more passive and let the male start everything? As I said, you can't expect to get rid of what's disadvantageous toward your gender but keep what makes things easier for you. I'm sure you know the whole feminist movement to pass the ERA in the US. Legitimate feminists wanted total equality - I have absolutely nothing against that. The other side were women who were resisting because they fancied the differences - they liked the custom that men had to treat women with extra respect for no reason other than their gender. I have absolutely nothing against that either. To each on her own. It's when a person wants the best of both sides that I have a problem. In this case, a woman who considers herself a feminist because she wants equal job opportunities for women, but she's against women being drafted into the military. That simply wouldn't be fair. You either take both or leave both.

 

And I'm not trying to keep any standards alive and well. Personally, I don't take advantage of the male side of the double-standard nearly as much as some other guys do, mostly because I don't care to. If it makes you feel any better, the double-standard is not so prevalent at my age. I usually find that it only exists in extreme cases, ie a girl who gets around A LOT as opposed to a girl who has an occasional hookup with a random guy. People won't label the girl who has an occasional hookup a tramp...just a girl who's being a girl and having fun with it. Then again, most guys are so desperate and craved for sex that when the male equivalent - a guy who has an occasional hookup with a girl - gets the girl, all the guys make a big deal out of it like he's a god. At least there's no negative view against the girl, and all the guy gets is a fan club of a bunch of chumps.