Boys, do you prefer to network with mostly other males

[Lucy_lou]

Hello readers.

 

I was just wondering about a phenomenon I've noticed in the workplace and other environments where people on a similar career path come together (e.g. uni), and it's that guys often make more effort to network with other guys than with the women (e.g. me), and I've noticed in some situations a guy will ignore me to the point that it seems deliberate and talk only with the guys. I'll see them shaking hands, giving one another a lot of eye contact and recognition, and I don't receive any of that. It's not like I don't make an effort. If you are a guy, and you are ambitious in your career, do you think this ever happens? Can you tell me what this phenomenon is? I think I am as smart, career focussed and ambitious as most others and often more, but I sometimes experience this kind of exclusion from guys who I would expect to have a lot of reason to be talking shop with. I am in a slightly male dominated field, and feel that perhaps it is my gender which is going to cause me somewhat of an obstacle because of what I suspect may be the formation of boys clubs in the workplace. Am I paranoid?

[Angel_baby]

No, still to this day there are men, who won't openly admit it or anything, but feel they are "above" and deserve more then a women. This is very true if you are working in a male dominated field.

[Flux]

I agree with Angel, if you are in a male dominated field you will be treated as an though you are less than them which sucks.

 

But to be honest, I think that the male mentality towards women, causes there network and social circles to block them out. I don't even think its a case of bieng on the same career path. I have a lot of male friends, and even in my social time occasionally blank me. Though granted this could be caused by thier age.

 

It's a tricky subject to talk about though, but I don't think you're paranoid, it's very probably that this is the case

[rockr]

No, still to this day there are men, who won't openly admit it or anything, but feel they are "above" and deserve more then a women. This is very true if you are working in a male dominated field.

 

what you say is true, be it any form of field or society in general.

 

this feeling of being above, superior is 100's of centuries old and possibly since existence of humans & race. Women have started appearing and got the freedom in working roles and other forms of activities in society for not even a century. men will not accept women on equal basis in all walks of life anytime soon considering the timeline of women's progress in society on the whole.

 

it will take a long long time for that. will it ever happen is another topic in itself.

[Lucy_lou]

So how do I fight it? What do I do if the smartest, most likely to succeed and go far guy, who's also most likely to soon have a flock of men paying full attention to him decides to shun me for no reason? How do I deal with him? I'm fantasising about confronting him on his male bias, but of course I know that's not how you win friends in a new job. I want to get him on side, because I think if he keeps shunning me this much it could be detrimental to my career as well as my ability to network with the other people in the company.

 

Are there any male readers who may have unconsciously placed more importance on networking with the other men than women in a company? What's going on?

 

Any advice?

[Batya33]

I work in a male dominated field and my main mentor for the last 10 years is a man - he has done much for me and included me in many networking opportunities with men. I have had other male mentors too. I also belong to a women's networking group which is inspiring and empowering. I don't see an imbalance when I go to events unless the guys are talking about golf (I don't play) or sports (not a big interest of mine).

[Lucy_lou]

I like the idea of getting involved in something like that (women's networking). I am in with a young bunch, (we're all a bit green), and I think perhaps with maturity this guy will change. (hopefully sooner than later).

 

I just want to not be excluded, especially by this guy who I think will have quite some influence in the future. I don't want us to be competing with each other, but I'm almost feeling like I want to compete with him because he is avoiding interacting with me or treating me with the same cameraderie he treats the other guys. ( I also think he is or has been a little bit shy in the past, and uses his hard work and ambition to raise his confidence).

[Batya33]

What in particular have you tried to do for him - have you offered to introduce him to people he might benefit from professionally, offered to pitch in on a project of his, offered ideas (without trying to take credit), etc.?

[Lucy_lou]

not yet, we've just started. I will try to (if I can keep the anger and bitterness at bay). If anyone (especially career focussed ambitious guys) have any insights into my original question, I'd be very interested.

[Batya33]

Not at bay - only if you truly want to work with and cooperate with this person - otherwise if he is smart and successful as you say your anger/bitterness will be obvious. I don't think the problem here is male bonding, it's your reaction to him not choosing you, yet, as a confidante. Gender is irrelevant in this situation.

[Lucy_lou]

I would appreciate the views of other posters if anyone has any

[rocio]

I hadn't really noticed any such thing at work. At conferences I've been approached and befriended by plenty of men.

 

I do feel like my boss and I don't have the same relationship as we could if I was male. Young men in my office will sit with him and chat about sports, which is kinda over my head. But then, he bonds over soccer with my husband while I bond over babies with his wife. It's all good. Plus I feel like I have a special relationship with the women in the office - we have a bit of a minority alliance going on.

[JadedStar]

yes. this happens! My last corporate gig, before my current consulting job, i went thru this A LOT. I was in a very male dominated business/industry. The men definitely bond thru their golfing outings and other similar activities and even tho I am very much a good conversationalist and enjoy a lot of activities that males do it was very obvious that there was a male bonding ritual that excluded females. Many of them even had the "guys" lunch on wednesdays and another woman in the department tried to break into their little gatherings and they all but told her she wasn't allowed.

 

It reminded me of the Little Rascals episodes where they had their little treehouse with NO GIRLS ALLOWED scrawled on a slab of wood at the entrance.

[rocio]

But don't women do the same thing? I know the crowd I often eat lunch with includes 1 guy and about 8 or 10 women. We also have our own bonding rituals that straight guys have trouble getting past.

 

I'm not saying that some men don't feel superior or whatever. But I don't think that's all that's going on.

[JadedStar]

I did not see this phenomenon occur with women to this extent. Women seem to be just as happy to network wtih men as they do women.

 

Or at least in my region they did.

 

I never went for those exclusive girls events if they did exist.

 

But maybe that is because I have a lot of aggressive views on things and identify with men as much or more than i do women. Dunno.

 

But then again i never tried to get into the male dominated circles either. I was pretty no nonsense at work.

[Lucy_lou]

thanks for the replies. I'm not by any means in with really macho guys who talk sports, but I think they just gravitate towards each other sometimes without intending to be exclusive. As far as this one guy who I have marked as a future leader, (he's only in his early twenties) I'd like to find a way to break his snobby behaviour. I'm suspecting that he'd be talking to me more if I weren't a woman (he's talking to all the guys, ambitious as well as relaxed ones), and I'm more like him than a lot of the other guys are. I'm not girly on the job at all. I don't act at all in stereotypical female ways. It just seems deliberate, and I don't know what to do. My current action plan is to just continue to try to talk to him (about career stuff), and be persistent (though not over do it), and not let it get to me that he seems to be avoiding interacting with me. But my normal emotional reaction if someone snubs me is to ignore them back. I am worried that if I don't break his behaviour, that it will go on for the rest of my time with this company that he will be excluding me, and it might be detrimental. It does hurt my feelings as well, but this is mostly about not wanting to be disadvantaged, and wanting to fight old traditions which hold women back.

[JadedStar]

Lucy Lou you are probably right. there is still a stigma in the office between males and females altho it is much much less severe than past years.

 

But it still does exist. I absolutely know it does.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Are these guys your peers. Really, the person you should impress is your boss. Don't force yourself into the boy's club just to rise up the ladder. Let your work speak for itself. You will not break their attitude just by trying to get yourself in. If the attitude is ingrained in them, even if you try to schmooze, they will tolerate it and laugh behind your back. You can make it on your own without these guys. Focus on your talents, be vocal at meetings, SHOW them that you have the right stuff. Eventually they may come around.

[JadedStar]

Are these guys your peers. Really, the person you should impress is your boss. Don't force yourself into the boy's club just to rise up the ladder. Let your work speak for itself. You will not break their attitude just by trying to get yourself in. If the attitude is ingrained in them, even if you try to schmooze, they will tolerate it and laugh behind your back. You can make it on your own without these guys. Focus on your talents, be vocal at meetings, SHOW them that you have the right stuff. Eventually they may come around.

 

I agree. You have to do your own thing, handle your business. I never really was the type on the job to try to get into circles - female or male oriented ones. I had aquaintences but kept the close pals to minor few. On the job I was there to work and succeed. I could see the cliques around me, but not interested in them at all. The woman i mentioned in my earlier post who wanted to "break in" to the guys lunches - i never really understood why she cared.

 

Crazyaboutdogs brings up a good point. What is the reasoning behind wanting to get in good with these guys anyway? Just do your thing. Do a great job. Dazzle your superiors. there is no better way IMO.

[Lucy_lou]

I will definitely be focussing on getting ahead on my own as best I can, but as the old vietnamese proverb goes "you can't do anything on your own." (or something to that effect). I am new to this industry, so I am yet to find out how much having the network of contacts and the interaction that often leads to helpful advice will matter. We will be working together and teamwork will be important, I'm sure. I don't want to default into loner behaviour in an organisation that really needs a lot of interaction. And if I am the loner of the group it will appear as if I'm the one instigating it, and really I'd like to be given credit for being a personable person which I believe I am. And it's annoying that my efforts are so futile because of these attitudes.

 

But no, I'm not one of these people who places too much effort in being accepted into the boys club for its own sake. I just want to do well in all the ways that I can, and I'm sure that developing a positive relationship with my peers is part of that, and I see these patterns as an obstacle, and tackling this one obstacle is the purpose of this thread.

 

I think I'll take both my own advice (to keep trying - but not desparately), but also to keep my focus on doing it on my own, and showing what I'm made of through my work, as you've both suggested. Sound good? any other advice?

[poloplayer]

It really depends on the industry you are in. I work in finance, and it doesn't get any more male dominated than in here. There is so much testosterone in my office that I usually just grab lunch with the couple girls that I work with as a way to bring estrogen into my life during work hours.

 

With networking, I go to those who will help me, and in this industry it happens to be the guys, so I will have to answer guys. But if it were women who would help me most, then I would be networking with women predominately. I've met people in banks, hedge funds, and in public office, and the majority of 'big wigs' were males.

 

I am however, planning on leaving the industry within a couple of years as it is not what I want to do long term; there is no passion there for me, and I am switching to healthcare. I am taking classes at night, and I am usually one of only five or so males in my classes. Most of my professors are women as well, so in the classroom I am networking with women, and trying to develop good relationships with my professors. But I will say that it's very weird; night and day between the environment at work with all males and the environment at school with all females. I find my female peers in the classroom far more pleasant. Finance is way too cutthroat - people will slice you with a knife if they can make a dollar off of you.

[Lucy_lou]

actually, now thinking about it, I think this guy I mentioned who is leader material.... well, I think I may be a bit of a leader type as well. Maybe I'll start a new thread on leaders and how they behave around other leaders.... how to develop inter leader harmony. That's what I'd like.

[rocio]

It really depends on the industry you are in.

 

I agree. I work for the government so it's not as competitive as the private sector and just generally has warm and fuzzy dynamics to the work environment.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

actually, now thinking about it, I think this guy I mentioned who is leader material.... well, I think I may be a bit of a leader type as well. Maybe I'll start a new thread on leaders and how they behave around other leaders.... how to develop inter leader harmony. That's what I'd like.

 

I think what disturbs me is that you are looking at your peers as "who is leader material" everything revolves around "leaders" and who you can get it in with. Networking is important but it seems to me that you are too much focused on that as if your whole career depends on it. Networking comes naturally as you are doing your work. When you work in a team people bring in their own strengths and defer to each other. Perhaps the guys are shutting you out because they sense a competitiveness and pushiness in a brown nosing sort of way rather than in a "I truly want to get to know you" way. I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps you should look at HOW you come accross when you are approaching these people. I know a guy at work who is big on getting into the in crowd and schmoozing...but it is done in order to get ahead and it comes accross as incredibly phony and self-serving...it is not done out of a sense of comraderie but out of a sense of "if I make nice nice with them, they will help me". He has ended up backstabbing a lot of people after he gets what he wants, and has made a lot of enemies.

The guys at your work are schmoozing because there is comraderie and the upside is that they network...they might sense that you are not in it to be friendly, but simply to push your way up.

[Batya33]

I agree with this which is why I gave the opinion that this is not a gender issue but a personality/social skills issue. Thinly veiled anger and bitterness (or even thickly veiled, as the OP wrote she would need to do to turn things around with this particular guy) do not get past most people particularly leader types who have to be very attune to body language, etc.

 

That's a great point about friends first and the networking benefits are the icing on the cake. If I think about it that's always how it's worked best with me - the people I click with personally are the ones from whom i get the most career-related benefits even if they work in a different industry. Just because I work in the same industry doesn't mean we'll click.