Religious differences

[juicey]

Hi,

 

I had a question for anyone involved in an interfaith relationship or a relationship where one person was religious but the other was Agnostic/Atheist.

 

Say I'm Agnostic and my fiance is Southern Baptist. He believes that he is head of household and has final say on decisions because he is the man, but I don't believe in that at all and everything should be equal.

 

Is there a way to work through something like that? It seems to me that they are two fundamentally different beliefs that cannot be worked through. The reason why I am asking is because this really did happen to me and my ex-fiance blamed me for the break up for years afterward because he said it could've been worked through.

 

There were other problems than just that, but I'm interested in hearing other people's perspectives.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

There are some fundamental (large) differences that can't be worked through if you two are too far apart in value systems. You might find it very difficult to live with permanently if he is ordering you around and claiming he has the right and doesn't need to compromise.

 

Actually, your ex-boyfriends attitude may have been that you two would have 'worked through it' if you just gave in and did what he wanted...

 

You have to ask yourself how annoyed you would be living with the consequences IF your current boyfriend stayed exactly the same and expected the same from you. it can be a really serious battleground after marriage, especially if there are children involved that he wants raised in his own faith, and to follow his own more conservative beliefs.

 

But sometimes things that are claimed to be in the name of religion, aren't really the religion itself, just other values that have been incorporated into the person's family life that they TAKE as gospel when it is not. so you could try to find a way to influence him to be less autocratic in the name of religion, but i don't know how successful it would be.

[RayKay]

I think it really depends on the faiths involved. I know people whom have interfaith relationships, and have been able to work things out - though they talked it out BEFORE getting too serious (like how children would be raised, what customs would be followed). I think issues still arise at times, but ones they can work through.

 

I agree though with BeStrong that his idea of working it out may have been for you to conform to his ideas...

 

While I am not opposed to dating someone of a different religion at all as I am not religious myself, I think there are definitely some things that are dealbreakers for me though. I would not stay with someone whom felt they had the "right" to rule the home simply as they are male for any reason, whether based on their religious beliefs or not (and often, these are not religious beliefs, more "customs" that have developed and are "backed" by religion but not truly religious).

 

I am agnostic - I follow the Dalai Lama's quote that "my religion is kindness", and I am spiritual, but am not religious. I have also not dated seriously anyone whom is religious, as often if I met someone whom was, I found out quickly there were major differences in our values and morals that did not align. For example, one man whom was interested me was an ardent Catholic - and while that in itself was fine (my mother was actually a former Catholic) - he early on told me his views against homosexuality and the like and that was a dealbreaker since I have family and friends whom are gay and it was contrary to my values. Sharing similar values/morals is important to me.

 

I also get quite bothered if someone I meet believes that as I am not religious, I somehow need to be saved from myself, or lack values and morals...which is not the case at all, and I can easily see many whom are "religious" whom do not follow what they preach either. I do not want to date someone whom wants to convert me.

 

My sister whom is also agnostic, is dating a Jewish man - his family is traditional/observant for most part but he is less so. His grandmother though despises my sister as she is not Jewish and makes rude comments in front of her. My sister does not take it too harshly and realizes grandma is pretty ancient and set in her beliefs, but also does not plan on marrying him either.

[elite867]

Having an interfaith relationship is very difficult and takes a lot to make it work. The example you described doesn't seem to be a religious issue.

 

Hi,

Say I'm Agnostic and my fiance is Southern Baptist. He believes that he is head of household and has final say on decisions because he is the man, but I don't believe in that at all and everything should be equal.

 

This seems more of a cultural, family dynamics issue. It may have resulted in the way he was brought up in his church, but true love should see that all are equal.

 

I am Catholic and I as well as all of my Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Baptist (and so on) friends believe that we should be equal in our relationships.

 

In my expereince, I was married to a man who was pagan. This relationship survived because at the time, I was weak in my faith and did not make it a priority in our family.

 

I tried going to his pagan gatherings and he tried going to church with me. But I hated going to the gatherings and he hated going to church with me. I could not share my faith with him. As our marriage began to fall apart (for other reaons), I tried to reach out to him by embracing his faith. This took me down a path I did not like.

 

I think interfaith marriages can work but it takes a lot. I have a friend who is atheist and he is married to a Christian. He has accepted that his wife is not an Athieist and does not object as she teaches the children about Christ and takes them to church, etc. He also honors her wishes by not sharing his views with them as it is very important to her that the children grow up Christian. But he has remained an Atheist for his entire marriage (20+ years).

 

I heard that the divorce rate is diminished by a significant percentage for couples who share the same faith, culture, and understanding of family dynamics.

 

To end, I have to say that, as a hopeless romantic, I believe all can be overcome if true love guides both lovers. If not, it will be difficult even if you are of the same faith.

[juicey]

Hi BeStrongBeHappy,

 

This relationship ended awhile ago. My current boyfriend and I are on a break and I've been taking the time to really examine myself and past relationships. I don't think that I ever actually thought of what my deal breakers and boundaries were consciously and now I am taking the time to do so.

 

Anyway, thank you for your post. I did and still do think that those differences are so fundamentally different that you can't work through them. And as you pointed out, if I just gave in to his point of view, then yes, we could've worked through them.

 

I guess my biggest problem with that relationship was that he just assumed that because he believed that way and he knew that I didn't, that it was automatic that I would bend to his way regardless.

 

I'm curious to see if anyone is in an actual marriage or long term relationship like this.

[Flux]

I think in mixed-religious relationships there needs to be compromise. Though if you were agnostic/athiest and didn't have a faith it would be rough ground for them, with having a religion rammed down your throat, so to speak.

 

Though if I was in a position with someone whose religion 'misguided' them into thinking they were the head of the household, I would leave. I wouldn't want someone to change their veiws, but I wouldn't allow myself to be the 'victim' of a faith I didn't believe in. Though that may be quite selfish of me.

 

Let's say if you were in a relationship with a Jehovah's Witness, but you were not one. And you needed a blood transfusion, which JW's avidly think is a sin, would you risk your life for your partner? or would you risk losing you're partner for your life?

 

Religion is a weird old thing, I can see why it causes so many issues and wars around the world. But I don't think I could find a compromise in a highly religious relationship

[juicey]

Hi elite,

 

Thank you for your insight. I was brought up Catholic and have many friends that are of different religions. I agree that it was probably something that he was brought up to believe, but I also believe it has strongly to do with his faith. When I've researched the Southern Baptist religion they have mission statements like this:

 

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation

[juicey]

Great questions, Flux. I never quite saw it like that before.

 

The one thing I can't quite wrap my head around is that although I may not have a religion or an established faith that I believe in, I do still believe in something. So, it seemed to me that I bended a lot more to my ex believing in his faith and making allowances for him rather than him doing it for what I believe because I didn't have a name for it and it wasn't something I could say "But it's in the Bible!"

[bpsekh]

Hi,

 

I had a question for anyone involved in an interfaith relationship or a relationship where one person was religious but the other was Agnostic/Atheist.

 

Say I'm Agnostic and my fiance is Southern Baptist. He believes that he is head of household and has final say on decisions because he is the man, but I don't believe in that at all and everything should be equal.

 

Is there a way to work through something like that? It seems to me that they are two fundamentally different beliefs that cannot be worked through. The reason why I am asking is because this really did happen to me and my ex-fiance blamed me for the break up for years afterward because he said it could've been worked through.

 

There were other problems than just that, but I'm interested in hearing other people's perspectives.

 

As far as a Biblical reading is concerned, he would be partially correct, depending on interpretation.

 

According to I Peter, the third Chapter goes into detail on proper relationships and etiquette for married persons, and it starts like this:

 

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

 

Ephesians 5: [22] Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior...[25] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her [26] to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word...

==============

Your relationships are up to you. His beliefs are up to him. From there, you may have to change your lifestyle accordingly if you really think it is possible.

[nicholas1969]

I wanted to expand a little on what bpsekh said about the what the Bible says about marriage. When it says "submit" it does mean that the husband is the leader. But many husbands stop there and use it as a reason to be the law of the house and rule over their wives.

 

But the part that these husbands forget about is where it says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" - Christ SERVED the Church and gave EVERYTHING to the Church (the body of believers)! Likewise, husbands are to serve their wives. They are to love their wives. And the wives are to respect and follow the husbands lead.

 

You get a perfect circle - one follows and one serves. You cannot have two leaders - it makes things very difficult - but if the husband is a leader who is always serving his wife, then all his decisions will be for in the best interest of his wife - not for him - he is to sacrifice himself for her benefit!

 

So - the roles are different, yet equally important. We are not the same. We are different. And we are equally important. Here is more information on how link removed.

 

Also - Christian spouses are supposed to stay married to non-Christian spouses - so that the light can shine and the love will attract the non-Christian to Christ - that is IF the husband (in this case) is living the Word and SERVING and LOVING his wife the way he should.

 

~ I hope this helps you a little bit.

[juicey]

Hi Nicholas,

 

Thank you for the information and insight.

 

The only problem with all that is that I don't care what the Bible says or what the translation of all that means. He cares and he believes that, but I don't. I respect what he believes but I am not willing to follow that. My beliefs are that everyone is equal, especially in a marriage.

 

How do two people stay in a marriage where there are two fundamental differences like that?

[nicholas1969]

(You should care - and you should know it - because that is what HE is going from and basing YOUR marriage on - so even if you are not Christian, you should be able to talk to him on his terms and ask him to try and see your point of view as well - as an adult with an open mind.)

 

Well, there's the rub of it. If you want to co-lead, then there will be a problem. And of course, there is a gray area - my wife wants to do all the bills - ok - no problem - she has control of that. But she also wants a big fish tank and a puppy that I know we cannot properly take care of - so the answer is no - for now. And she wanted to take more money out on the house for some improvements - that's a no go.

 

She respects my lead on that. On major things we consult each other. But I am always trying to serve and love and do things for her - so unless there is a good reason, then she gets what she wants. But final say is usually with me. And I fill that role responsibly - always with her and our family in mind.

 

So - I am wondering - is this guy saying you have to bow down to his every decision? I am wondering what his picture of "leading" is - does he want to rule you or does he want to serve and love you? You may want to let him read this: link removed(also in my previous post). See what he says about that.

 

Which is better: to lead and serve or to be served and follow? Do you see how they ARE EQUAL - they are just different. A husband cannot be a husband without his wife and a wife cannot be a wife without her husband. And you cannot have two head chefs.

 

Then ask yourself: if he wants to lead with my best interest at heart, can I live with that? If he will love me and serve me, can I respect him as the household leader?

 

Then you have to make a choice. Before you make that choice I suggest you get premarital counseling - get it all out on the table before you get married - then you will know about each other's expectations and can make a decision from there. When you get married, do it for life - so don't be afraid to say "no" if you cannot agree on expectations you can live with. This is your life - don't feel pressured into something you cannot whole heartedly say "yes!" to.

 

I know you don't believe, but I'll say it anyway: God bless you and may He guide your decision to what will last and be right for your life.

[juicey]

Hi nicholas,

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me, but I think we are communicating on two different levels. First of all, my original question came from an old relationship of mine. Second, I think I may have mis-wrote in my last post to you. I don't care what the Bible says - that is true. However, in my relationship with my ex, I fully understood what he believed. I respected his beliefs, but at the same time I didn't believe them and didn't care to cater to his beliefs as he didn't cater to mine, nor care about mine either.

 

When I started this thread, I wasn't intending on asking for advice about the Bible or translations of it or further understand of any religion. I am a grown intelligent woman and have read and researched enough to know that it is not for me. I am not asking for any advice or further understanding of what people of that faith believe. I get it, I understand what they believe---and guess what? *I* don't believe in it and *I* don't follow it. I have my own beliefs and it is simply to be nice and treat everyone equally.

 

My intention with starting this thread was to see if there was anyway that fundamental differences as ours could be worked out without either one compromising their belief's.

 

I think I've answered my own question though and I think I was correct all along.

 

It doesn't work. Already, no offense, but you are talking to me as if I just don't understand what you believe and that if you explain more about your beliefs I'll understand and magically agree to what you have just said. I believe in equality in marriage and in life. I don't agree at all with what you are proposing about one person leading.

 

There doesn't have to be anyone leading. It is mutual relationship where decisions are made together.

[nicholas1969]

I too think that marriage is a partnership. I did not mean to offend in any way - just trying to help by maybe showing a different perspective - understanding can open new doors sometimes (and I see that is not what you were seeking - and that you DO understand).

 

Marriage is a partnership - I agree. But in your case, one person does want to be the leader. And if that doesn't work for you, then he would have to give in a little. Otherwise there will be conflict from the beginning. So in that sense, you are right - it wouldn't work if someone does not make a concession.

 

So the short answer to your question different belief systems can work together unless there is a direct conflict - like what you have - and no one will compromise. So you are right in the answer you found for your situation.

 

(Sorry for the loooong posts - I just really sincerely want to help people - but I can get carried away and lose sight of the original point / question)

 

So I wish you the best of luck - I hope you find what you need and deserve.

 

Sincerely,

 

Nick

[elite867]

Juicey,

 

You are welcome. The mission statement is interesting. It seems to say that both sexes are equal so long as the woman bows down to the husband.

 

Oh well, I guess we will both have to avoid Baptists in the future (in regards to relationships...)

 

Elite

[winchester3]

My perspective about religious differences and how do cope with them is you need to compromise. I'm thinking one person is going to have to grab that argument/debate by the balls and lay out the rules. Lets say Female starts the discussion.

 

"If we're to be married, things have to change, i want this this and this. However i know this is how things are done in your faith. What are you willing to give up for us?" Or something along those lines, but the foundation needs to be laid down and work from there. Tell it how it is and lots of communication.

[Shiranai]

My fiance's a devoted Catholic and I'm a hardcore atheist.

 

We make it work by not dissing each other's beliefs.

 

Although we're not from the same religion, we do share the same values and standards, which made compromising a lot easier. (We are both liberals that support gay marriage, pro-choice, etc.)

 

We did have to sit down and talk about the religion issue before moving forward with our relationship. We definitely negotiated, and talked about our comfort zones and boundaries with religion. (I made it clear I don't want to learn any more than I have to about his book, and if he wants my opinion I'll have nothing nice to say about the book. I also made it clear he does not need to tell me what the bible says, because I simply don't care, and it'll piss me off.) Sometimes he needs to remind me to not go overboard when I'm doing a religious debate (at least not when he's around.) Sometimes I remind him to never put me in any of his prayers or I'll assume he's deifying me and praying to me. He prays before he eats, and I just sit there and watch him in silence. At the same time, he doesn't pray before he eats when he eats with my friends/family.

 

We do a lot to make it work.

 

I did have to compromise more when it comes to children though. We agreed to raise the children Catholic (as long as their teachers don't attempt to brainwash them to think it's wrong to be Atheist,) until they're 12. After that they get to choose if they want to go to church or not.

 

 

P.S. I find Nicolas's posts offensive. I guess I'll be avoiding southern baptist guys too. In fact, I just met one a few days ago. He was so angry at me for being an opinionated, strong headed woman. He says I have no personality of a woman and I ought to be ashamed to be so much like a man.

[juicey]

Hi Winchester,

 

Thanks for your advice. For whatever it's worth, I did try that. It just didn't work for me. He started quoting scriptures and stuff out of the bible to justify why he should be the "head of household" and have final say.

 

I didn't mind him believing in his faith, but I had and still do have a huge problem with someone imposing that on me. I guess it is one thing to say that you believe in God, but totally another to use that faith to say what my marriage is supposed to be like.

[juicey]

Juicey,

 

You are welcome. The mission statement is interesting. It seems to say that both sexes are equal so long as the woman bows down to the husband.

 

Oh well, I guess we will both have to avoid Baptists in the future (in regards to relationships...)

 

Elite

 

That is how I took it also. His mother even tried to convince me that when they say submissive, it really didn't mean submissive but it meant submissive. LOL.

[juicey]

Hi Shiranai,

 

What a beautiful name!

 

Once I called off the engagement my ex-fiance told me that I have f-d up priorities in life because marrying should be a woman's number 1 priority

 

I did realize that he was a screwball and am so very glad that I didn't marry him. I wonder if S. Baptist men are all like this though.

[Shiranai]

I re-read Nicolas' posts a few more times, hoping to "understand" this foul logic a bit more.

 

I failed. Every time I read it it just becomes more and more offensive. How can a religion condemn women like that and still get female followers is beyond me. Thank goodness I don't follow it.

 

The logic fails. Sure one person will be more dominant in a relationship, that's always the case, even if by a minuscule amount. However, Nicolas assumes ALL WOMEN are more submissive and are willing to "follow the man." I don't see any reason for a woman to "follow a man's lead" when she naturally takes charge. In fact, "I" am the more dominant in my relationship, and "I" lead. I respect all of my fiance's decisions and choices, since I acknowledge he is smarter than me and also has a dominant personality, but "I" make the final decisions, because that's me.

 

In any case, I just want to say, when people try, they can make most situations work. Most deeply religious people just don't try hard enough. It's unrealistic to attempt to convert another person. I'm sure my relationship won't work if I try to convert my boyfriend into an Atheist. There's also no way he'd ever convince me to follow his religion. People have reasons for believing in their belief. Whether it's logical to believe, is up for the individual to decide. Anytime one tries to push one belief onto another, the relationship is doomed to fail. (Unless if one side really just doesn't care.)

[juicey]

Hi Shiranai,

 

I agree. I am naturally a more dominant person than most and generally take the lead in everything. Not always, but usually.

 

And that is how my relationship with my ex worked too. I took the lead in everything b/c that was just how it was. He was not a go getter or thought of practical things very much. He would go to work and come home and left everything else up to God.

 

That was another reason it floored me that he thought that magically when we get married that he would have the final say. As if I would do all the work and in the end ask for his final permission.

[nicholas1969]

Hello everyone,

 

A lot has transpired since I last visited.

 

I honestly did not intend to offend anyone. And I am actually surprised at the level of offense that was taken. If it does not make sense to you, it is understandable. And if you want to lead your household, that is your choice - as long as your spouse can be the follower.

 

But obviously that will not work if the husband is of a faith (in this case, Christian - but also Islam and others) that states the man is to lead.

 

The fact is that there really can be only one leader - if there are two leaders, then neither one is leading - it is all by agreement - the problem comes in when neither will conceed on an issue - one must lead.

 

Anyway - I DO NOT sit in judgement of any of you or get mad at you for being strong (the fact is that NO Christian is supposed to judge anyone - ever). I do not assume that all women will submit (actually - will be led). Clearly not all women are of that belief. And that's their choice. I was simply giving the Christian perspective because Juicey's man is Christian - and this is HIS belief - if Juicey cannot let him lead, then it won't work unless he is willing to submit to her lead.

 

As far as my explainations, they were intended to illustrate that it is not like what people think - with the woman being a weaker servant to the man (a view many hold of Christian wives submiting to their husbands) and the man ruling over his poor submissive weak minded wife. NOT even close. It should be a situation where the husband, as the leader, is the selfless servant of the wife. So I guess what I was saying is this: if he is a true Christian husband, then he will lovingly serve his wife, thereforeeee, it wouldn't be so bad to follow such a leader.

 

BUT - if you choose not to do that - then that's perfectly fine. No anger. No resentment. No judgement. I understand. It's cool. I am not trying to "force" anything on you. Just trying to bring clarity to the man's side in this case. Because his belief will affect Juicey's decision.

 

I wish all of you the best and hope you find men who want to be led and who will treat you right - there are plenty of them - because as Shiranai said: "Sure one person will be more dominant in a relationship, that's always the case." Is that "foul logic"?

 

So you have to have a leader. In a Christian marriage case, it is the man. In your case it is not. Cool. No sweat. BUT - just to clarify one last time (a collective sigh from readers): Both Husband and Wife are equal - it is not "foul logic." It is in the bible specifically - the New Living Translation has the best translation of this:

 

"In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker [physically] than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered. - 1 Peter 3:7 (NLT)"

 

I am done -and I am sure you are glad of it. I hope you see that I didn't mean to offend and that I respect all of you as my fellow human beings.

 

Have a good day and may good things come your way.

 

Sincerely,

 

Nick

[juicey]

Hi Nicholas,

 

This is the thing, I think most everyone understands the concept of what it is for one person to be designated 'head of household' and have final say. I can say for myself that I found it odd that you decided to explain it further to me as if I was only disagreeing with it because I didn't understand it. When you say something like this "If it does not make sense to you, it is understandable," the reader is inclined to take it as that you are saying that the reader doesn't understand your concept thereforeeee it doesn't make sense to them. That's just not true, it's understood and not agreed with.

 

I also think it is being found offensive that you are stating your views as if this is the only view that is viable. Even in your last post you are still saying that one person has to be a leader when marriages and unions all over the place do not operate that way.

 

I agree that there is usually one 'stronger' person in a relationship but you are stating in no uncertain terms your beliefs as facts. Most people don't take well to that. I know neither one of my parents would agree that one of them is the leader, they both are and I'm pretty sure both would be offended being told that their marriage is doomed to fail because one of them is not the appointed leader. They've been married 30 years with a marriage based on equality.

 

In any case, I'm not sure if you are quite getting what I was asking in my original post. It isn't for a better description of what my EX believed or how that style of marriage works. It was just simply asking if anyone had experience with two people having two fundamentally different beliefs on marriage and being able to work through it.

 

Also, we have been over for years and I was just taking some time thinking about past relationships and pondering what I've done right and wrong. My EX has stated for years that it was my fault for the break up because I wouldn't compromise, hence the thread. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that you can't compromise certain fundamental beliefs. I could never compromise my integrity and freedom by being 'lead' and he couldn't give up the notion that he as the man was designated 'head of household.'

 

In any case, I do thank you. Believe it or not, as much as I disagreed with your posts it did shed some light on my past situation and did help me see things the way that I see them now. So, thank you.

[Shiranai]

Nick,

 

Read your own post again and maybe you'll see why your posts are so offensive to thinking women.

 

Even to the last minute when you say you won't argue anymore, you are STILL talking down to women.

 

You inherently believe women are second class citizens and need to be lead.

 

I know it's unfortunate that you're brought up that way, but your attitude is very offensive.