A philosophical question on trust

[Alex Kidd]

Speaking to a friend yesterday at dinner and he said something that made me think. He's been going out with a girl (both of them are 26) for two years (last Sunday) and although if things carry on as smoothly as they have been he sees himself marrying her, he doesn't trust her fully. I said "that's odd". He suggested he doesn't trust anyone fully even his mother, but specifically in the context of relationships it makes no sense to trust fully since EVERYONE is capable of cheating. People choose not to cheat and be faithful, conversely they can choose to cheat.

 

Based on the simple fact that there is a probability that anyone can cheat (large or small depending on the person), trusting fully is irrational, given there is a chance you may get burned.

 

For example, In simple terms if one knew that the probability of their so cheating (given everyone has the capacity to cheat) was 10% (for example only) to trust them more than 90% would be irrational.

 

Is this just a curved ball way of looking at things?

[d24]

It's definitely over-analysing things - and there's no way to know if the level of trust a person deserves is what they're getting. I completely see the logic of the argument though.

 

I'd say... although everyone has the capacity to cheat I'd hope (which is perhaps niave?) that through choice my SO would not - which means you'd need to trust in them completely.

[Alex Kidd]

So how do you go about trusting?

[Shin kensen]

Nope! I think it's very rational to look at it this way. It's similar to the "why do we exist" conundrum. Thing is, we cannot be 100% sure what anyone else is thinking or holding back from us. thereforeeee we cannot trust anyone 100% but ourselves, and some people have issues here too.

 

I'm the same as your friend. But then again, where's love without risk?

[Timebandit]

I think that it is pretty realistic to view trust that way.

 

And I believe that it is not unlike so many other decisions we face in life. No matter what, you will never get the perfect car, girl, job, grades or whatever. Perfect trust is a also myth. Fulfillment of needs is not binary - but rather existing on a continuum.

 

But as humans we are often asked to answer 'yes' or 'no' to questions. We cannot say 85% to choosing a girl or a car. So the right question should be: "Am I satisfied with the level of trust in my relationship?"

 

Hope it makes sense

 

(and please let this be the final girl vs. car analogy on this board)

[shes2smart]

It sounds like a very over-analyzed way, overly-logical, rational-sounding explanation for some attitudes and actions that likely stem from a basic fear of taking a risk, making himself vulnerable and possibly ending up being hurt.

 

But it sure does sound more "mature", in control and rational than saying he's afraid, doesn't it?

[nightw0lf]

So how do you go about trusting?

 

There's no manual to follow, ive had major trust issues but probably because of previous experiences.

 

My ex told me i had no reason to worry and i didnt but i still didnt trust her, i really didint and that made me realize it just was not going to work and it didnt.

 

I think when you trust someone you have no feeling of doubt whatsoever, you know that person belongs to you and that persons love is yours and yours only and you have nothing to fear.

 

Trust ...hmm..I dont know, i also have major trust issues but there's a big difference between insecurities and trust.

[Alex Kidd]

There's no manual to follow, ive had major trust issues but probably because of previous experiences.

 

My ex told me i had no reason to worry and i didnt but i still didnt trust her, i really didint and that made me realize it just was not going to work and it didnt.

 

I think when you trust someone you have no feeling of doubt whatsoever, you know that person belongs to you and that persons love is yours and yours only and you have nothing to fear.

 

Trust ...hmm..I dont know, i also have major trust issues but there's a big difference between insecurities and trust.

 

 

Not sure its correct in saying someone belongs to you. This is never the vase as people's feelings can change. But I'm feeling the rest of your post. How do you differentiate between trust and insecurity?

 

To be honest, with regards Shes2Smarts comments, I don't think he was saying this to sound 'mature'.

[tiredofvampires]

thereforeeee we cannot trust anyone 100% but ourselves, and some people have issues here too.

 

I'm the same as your friend. But then again, where's love without risk?

 

Two very excellent points, Shin Kensen.

 

It is ironic that some of the people who trust the least are themselves more likely to see themselves in a "compromised situation." Thus, they see the possibilities in others, as well.

 

Which is not all that off the mark -- I think the question is not whether we can trust completely, but whether we believe there is a probable risk that is low enough that we are willing to take the risk -- and once we do, to let go of the fear it might happen. I would liken it to walking outside: can you "trust" that a piece of some building won't dislodge and fall on your head? Yes, to a certain extent. But to the extent that it is not very likely, you'd be paranoid to go out walking every day being suspicious of this event happening. You have to go out into the day expecting the best -- which is provisionally called "complete trust." You do not dwell on it, you do not take precautions like wearing a hard hat everywhere you go, you do not worry about it before you leave the house. If it happens, then you deal with it (if you are still alive.)

 

So there are no 100% guarantees in this life. And people, as humans, are quite frail and fallible. Some frailer than others, physically or mentally. Which is why when you choose a mate, it's important to choose one whose weaknesses you have a good sense of, a knowledge of from many different situations, and can handle the extent of these weaknesses when you decide to be with them for life. And even then, knowing that none of us knows our own capabilities or limitations completely, nor those of another.

 

So how this relates to your friend: you say he says he doesn't trust his prospective fiancee completely. But if you consider that no one can be completely trusted 100%, not even himself, not any human being, then in a relative way, if he trusts her as much as he can trust any human being, that is all he can possibly have in this life. So the question of whether he trusts her fully is not about her, personally, but rather than there is no absolute in the matter to begin with.

[Alex Kidd]

I think you're spot on, his logic was 100% trust does not exist. So I guess it boils down to the interpretation of 'fully trust' given that it cannot be 100%.

[Timebandit]

It sounds like a very over-analyzed way, overly-logical, rational-sounding explanation for some attitudes and actions that likely stem from a basic fear of taking a risk, making himself vulnerable and possibly ending up being hurt.

 

But it sure does sound more "mature", in control and rational than saying he's afraid, doesn't it?

 

As I wrote above, there is nothing wrong in realizing that he cannot have perfect trust. But as you say, it seems like he using it as an excuse to not make a decision. I forgot the last part.

 

He is being asked, and now he has to make a decision.

[nightw0lf]

Not sure its correct in saying someone belongs to you. This is never the vase as people's feelings can change. But I'm feeling the rest of your post. How do you differentiate between trust and insecurity?

 

To be honest, with regards previous poster, I don't think he was saying this to sound 'mature'.

 

How do you differentiate ?? Very good question..How do you know if what you feeling is untrustworty or insecurity ?

 

I just feel that if i personally trust someone i wont have insecurites about that person, no doubt, no nothing. I know that person is mine and mine ad mine alone and won't do anything to break that level of trust.

 

I guess an insecurity would be more related to a persons emotions, like "does this person really love me?" " Does she think im ugly ? "

 

This is a hard question lol.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes, and given that it cannot be 100% -- is the OP's friend posing this question as an intellectual exercise only...and is he able to go into marriage without fear? The point is to release oneself from the FEAR.

 

And I agre with you, AK, that no one "belongs" to anyone...it is a rather possessive terminology...

[Alex Kidd]

Ha-ha. Good effort though. I can see where you are coming from. But many would say trust and insecurity are of the same ilk. Maybe insecurity is a hindrence to trust, and you cannot trust if you are insecure. So you essentially need one before the other, meaning that they cannot be separated??

[nightw0lf]

Yes, and given that it cannot be 100% -- is the OP's friend posing this question as an intellectual exercise only...and is he able to go into marriage without fear? The point is to release oneself from the FEAR.

 

And I agre with you, AK, that no one "belongs" to anyone...it is a rather possessive terminology...

 

No-one belongs to anyone quite correct, everyone is there own person and controls themselves but someones LOVE can belong to someone as a whole, not partially.

[Timebandit]

I think when you trust someone you have no feeling of doubt whatsoever, you know that person belongs to you and that persons love is yours and yours only and you have nothing to fear.

 

Trust ...hmm..I dont know, i also have major trust issues but there's a big difference between insecurities and trust.

 

A little doubt is healthy and simply unavoidable. In a relationship you are two different people, who at times have different needs.

 

The unhealthy doubt is where it is based on emotional baggage from previous relationship, and is not warranted by what happens in the current relationship.

[karvala]

No, but it's an incomplete way of looking at things. Trust is not just for your partner's benefit. To trust someone, even if they may not entirely merit it, is an act of faith, and if you are capable of trusting someone entirely, even with some (hopefully small) probability that they will abuse that trust, *you* will feel better for it.

 

That's the reason people choose to trust; not because they rationally believe in someone, but because they want to believe in someone, and find themselves able to do so. It is, if you're into philosophy, another example of the age-old distinction between what is true, and what is good.

[Alex Kidd]

I'm a few years away from marriage boss. Wasn't an intellectual question only. Was looking for stern answers. I'm not a degree student writing an essay for my philosophy class

 

Personally at some point you have to let the guard down. For me that point would be marriage. I'm a rational individual, and I don't jump into things without great and deep (perhaps excessive) thought. I'm sure my pal would be the same. I mean what kind of life would that be if you were like this with your wife? Think all of this is for the time before. Admittedly, such fear would be present if I rushed into it. i.e. Married after 6 months of meeting someone.

[Alex Kidd]

No, but it's an incomplete way of looking at things. Trust is not just for your partner's benefit. To trust someone, even if they may not entirely merit it, is an act of faith, and if you are capable of trusting someone entirely, even with some (hopefully small) probability that they will abuse that trust, *you* will feel better for it.

 

That's the reason people choose to trust; not because they rationally believe in someone, but because they want to believe in someone, and find themselves able to do so. It is, if you're into philosophy, another example of the age-old distinction between what is true, and what is good.

 

Are you saying that you'd trust someone 100% even if you felt they were potential cheaters? Or are we talking about 'fully trusting' in a less than absolute sense?

[tiredofvampires]

No-one belongs to anyone quite correct, everyone is there own person and controls themselves but someones LOVE can belong to someone as a whole, not partially.

 

This, too, is a little problematic, if you break down the words "love partially" or "love fully." Some people cannot love with all their heart because of fear of intimacy, fear of loss, fear of all kinds of things. Or selfishness, or other plagues of the spirit.

 

But some people are able to love many fully, and their SOs get very jealous of this, feeling that love is only owed to them. I am not talking about someone loving many in a sexual/romantic way, but just loving all the people in their lives -- past SOs, friends of the opposite sex, whoever they meet, their capacity to love is very great and wide. And for this person, even if they are trustWORTHY, someone who is not trustING -- due to their insecurities and fears -- will contaminate that relationship by mistakenly thinking that the person who loves a lot is not "wholly" giving their love to one person (them.) They think they are not #1 (case in point, my ex.) So love to this person is a matter of trying in a way to make another person shine just a little less "wholly" on everyone, so that they won't feel "partially" loved. This is a poverty-stricken mentality, an attitude of scarcity.

[Alex Kidd]

Tiredofvampires, love is a loaded term. I personally use it sparingly. I would never tell a girl I was dating that I loved another girl (friend or not). I'm not sure, but what I understand by what you wrote is that concerning your guy friends you cared for their well being. I mean it would suck big time if a girl I was with was telling me she loves Dave, Jim and Bob. And she loves me as well? What's all that about?

[nightw0lf]

Good point , although i believe someone can give someone else there love as a whole i dont recommend it to anyone and tell people they should keep some love for themselves.

[tiredofvampires]

How do you differentiate between trust and insecurity?

 

I believe you meant "differentiate between mistrust and insecurity".

 

And I think the answer is that one simply breed the other; sometimes one's insecurities breed mistrust, which can be entirely irrational. And at other times, a sense of mistrust (due to something justified or not) will lead to feelings of insecurity.

 

For the person though who has pre-existing insecurities, the chances of mistrusting regardless of proof to the contrary, as just a state of mind, is quite high.

[Alex Kidd]

Sorry, what does 'love many fully' mean? Not sure this is possible. You can't measure how much is full.

[nightw0lf]

Sorry what does love many fully mean? To 'love fully' I don't understand this?

 

Well thats kinda our argument, can you really give someone your love as a whole ?? I mean total dedication in the love sense ? Tired doesnt think so but i do but i dont recommend it, keep some love for yourself.

 

Check my post in another thread, love means never having to say sorry.