Fudgie

I am so sorry! I'll be keeping you and your family in my thoughts. So sad that this is all close to the holidays! May your family band together and find peace and comfort. 

...the abyss gazes into you. Been on a little Neitzsche kick lately! 

But really now, my life has improved immensely the past couple years, despite the pandemic. Healthwise and physically, I'm better than I have been in many years, financially and emotionaly I'm doing great, etc. I think it's time to get back into talking a little more with other people before I lose my social skills outside of work/talking to family. I'm tired of renting ($$$) so I'm in the process of buying a cheap (ideally < 100k and yes, that's possible where I am) house, a cheap tiny house, so I can hunker down for a while and do some serious saving for what I really want, which involves building. 

I hope everyone is doing well.

I think at the end of the day, we are all built differently and what is a full, good life varies for everyone. I don't think anyone can completely appreciate/understand the "other side(s)" but to know that they are there for others and to leave them be is enough, in my book. 

Kids are not my jam. They don't have a place in my life - I will not be a mother nor a mentor. I can't relate at all to the love, joy, and dedication that parents express. I know it's there but I can't completely understand that as I don't have it myself and never will. 

Live and let live, I'd say. Everyone is trying their best in this existence, finding meaning while also keeping oneself alive, sane, etc. 

8 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

I'm quite sure I would've become a typical statistic:  a struggling, divorced single parent. 

It's quite possible but of course, there are people out there who marry into good families who still end up as that typical statistic. You had the drive and insight not to end up that way. I am not sure if I could do the same, to be honest, at this point.

I hope I can "take back" the term spinster. 

Cherylyn, 

Your husband and his family sound wonderful. It sounds like your in-laws are a great influence and you could model after them. Do you think having that modeled for you was pivotal? In that, hadn't that happened for you, things may not have worked out as well? 

I can honestly say I've never met a married couple, in person, that I would consider to be a good model for myself. Even the "good marriages" I've known, I have seen some toxic elements here and there that turned me off. 

I'm deeply cynical now and beyond redemption in this area. Relationships feel more transactional. I do feel that I am steering my own life, and a partner can either ride along and help me, or I'll go alone. 

10 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

The #1 reason why my parents had very heated arguments (fights) was due to lack of money and in their case, big debts as well.  I don't know what most couples argue about but lack of money is one of the major reasons why many couples argue.  

It's fascinating how our families of origin influence our outlook of relationships. 

I grew up well-off, parents fought often over many things but not money, lots of resentment on both sides, just emotional stuff, past trauma, etc. You could feel the tension. I never saw them kiss or hug unless it was an anniversary. I was my father's crutch, his confidante, and this was inappropriate and messed me up deeply. My parents relationship is a lot better now, they are still together, but I will forever have the scars. 

I saw how my parents treated each other, I saw my dad refuse to contribute to household chores despite both of my parents pulling 60-80 hr weeks in high paying, intense careers. I hated how he did that. Money was never an issue but everything else was. 

I have a very negative personal opinion of marriage that is now leaking into my opinion of relationships, I was sterilized in my mid 20s, I won't be a parental figure because I can't trust that I won't repeat the same toxic patterns, and I poured myself into other pursuits, assuming that I would be "on my own" for the most part and I wanted to make a lot of money on my own (now I do). 

I've been in therapy for a long time and worked on myself a lot. I've accepted, "this is as good as it gets". I can't get rid of my personal lifelong revulsion toward marriage and other things and at this point, I'm okay with that. 

My grandmother grew up with a poor dad with many debts. It's feast or famine in my family, either you're rich or you're struggling. Money was scarce for her, she married very well, but the pattern of mental illness and bad dynamics continued. 

The only person who understands me in this regard is my cousin, who grew up in the same family, grew up wealthy, parallel to me, and also has a strong revulsion to marriage and children, no partners. 

The family tree ends here.

1 hour ago, waffle said:

The point is that it's your attractiveness that matters.  That's it.  If it was your job/income/success that mattered, then you'd be posting that on dating sites instead of pictures.  I'm not saying it should be that way or it shouldn't be that way, I'm saying it IS that way.

I mean, to be fair, I used to have minimal photos (and I am plain, not very attractive, no make up, photos were not particularly flattering, no revealing clothes) and my profile focused on my internal strengths and interests and I would still get responses from men, men who seemed genuinely interested in me as a person. This applied to back when I was obese as well. 

That said, it wasn't TONS of men. But some. Just some. 

Sex appeal will ALWAYS get you more attention and the better looking you are, the more it nets. But it's not to say that physical attractiveness will make or break you completely. It means you have to have other things to offer if you don't have it, and you have to market yourself well. And very attractive women can still struggle in relationships if they are THAT bad in personality.

It's just life. If your values or desires don't line up that way, you don't have to play along but it may equal to more struggle in finding someone or maybe not finding anyone worthy at all. And that may be okay. 

13 hours ago, dias said:

You don't need to "take a step back in career/manage house". You hire a cleaner. Not all men who make a decent salary want kids. There is no reason to put your career on hold unless you have kids.  

Cleaners only take about 25% of domestic chores. All the cooking, laundry, household management, errands, etc. usually fall to the woman. 

I understand that this has not been the experience of many posters here and I am glad for people, but from what I've experienced, it's been quite different, from what I've seen in my family, friends, etc. Even the women who make way more money than the guy have to do all of that. 

Of course any guy is going to say "oh no I'll gladly help" if he likes the woman and wants to be with her. But what about when the true colors come out? 

It's really not as bad easy as you think it would be. It's easier for you to find someone in that traditional role than it is to find someone for the complete opposite who isn't a boring POS. 

That's very kind of you. I just don't know if I have it in me to try again so I haven't tried to date in 3 years. I'm really trying to be ok with it, biological human social nature has a strong pull, but I'm working on it.

BTW, Lolita, I don't think there is anything wrong or offensive with your married life and set up! He enjoys being a provider and you enjoy being a homemaker! You complement each other. You do you! 

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

 

🤣

Sorry gals! “You chose books, I chose looks” quote popped up into my mind from the film Matilda. HA! If you have both, double threat but, honestly, it’s not needed! I’m not a man here I can’t claim to know their minds but, most men I know don’t find the idea of a woman dominating them financially and educationally and getting them to clean up and stay home and walk their pet pug while you go out and do something in marketing in a corner office ultra sexy and propose inspiring.

I mean, I can't argue with it. It's sad but true. I was always more of a bookworm. I guess many women see this reality as "oh Yes, I don't need to have intelligence to snag a man, thank goodness!" I just don't share the sentiment when the realistic options for me are:

1) Get with someone who is similarly matched, be expected to take a step back in career/manage house OR kill myself trying to manage both to the fill extent. Good relationship, high stress. 

2) Get with someone who has less education/fewer interests than I do but if I'm lucky, he will actually be domestic (unlikely), but the relationship will be nil. Low(er) stress, bad relationship. 

Why even bother? 

Now if I could only get over my aversion to casual sex and then I wouldn't have to be celibate. 

2 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

Yes, I've met men who don't share the household load.  It's common, unfortunately.

It really is and I can't find the words to express how much it irritates me. It may seem like a petty hill to die it but I'd rather be alone than be responsible for most of the chores in a relationship. 

This isn't just about chores though. I could go on a tangent how I feel that many men I've come across seem to treat their partners like some kind of happiness spigot/personal therapist/cheerleader. Maybe it's a generational thing, with guys my age..? What is up with that? 

Alright I'll shut up now, haha. 

It sounds like you're not really enjoying your career path or relationship and that's a recipe for disaster, no matter who you are. 

I think figuring out what really makes YOU tick is key to having better self esteem. 

It's true that people can improve from their upbringing, absolutely. That said, I've (personally) not met adult men who would share the load. Or at least, they would talk the walk but not walk the walk. 

Spawn and Cherylyn, 

You're right, it absolutely boils down to how someone was raised. In my family, the women tend to be financially successful, sometimes more than the men, and still have to do 90+% of everything. It has infuriated me from a young age. I truly do dislike chores, having had a ton of responsibilities and being a parental figure from a young age (long story), and it has completely soured things for me in a relationship sense. 

That said, in my dating experience, I've not found the equality that people talk about, even in left-leaning "feminist" men. I don't doubt that it exists but I do think it's rare, perhaps where I am. 

Spawn, the image you give of the women slaving away as the men rest nearby happily is a common image in my life. My parents still reinforce it. I learned early on that it doesn't matter how much $$ you make as a woman, the hours you work, the workload is never equal and will fall to you, 100% of the time. I've seen it happen to most of my friends as well. It's happened in a couple of my relationships. 

I'd rather make bank on my own (which is what I'm doing) and pay for a maid service. 

What is that saying, a leopard can't change its spots...? It sounds like both of you were raised well and understand the importance of chipping in. 

I am the same as you, Cherylyn, much prefer to save money than spend. Your quality comment strikes me as true, too. I'd rather buy something that will last and hold up over time. That's always been my philosophy. I definitely will spend money on things that I enjoy; I only buy "Kerrygold" butter and I don't care how much it costs, it makes a big difference to me! But overall, yeah, prefer to save and then when/if things come up, I'm not screwed.  

14 minutes ago, Cherylyn said:

I realize your circumstances dictate where you live and we all do what we need to do to survive with financial situations. 

Oh, I'm sorry I gave off this impression. I do not need live in a rural area due to financial restraints. I make good money and can live wherever I'd like. However, the decreased cost of living rural apply to me because I'm cheap! 😅 In a handful of years, my car will be almost 20 years old! I've taken care of it and it runs well and just don't want to buy a new one despite having enough money to buy one outright, if I wanted to. A couple of my coworkers like to poke fun of me because I'm one of the highest earners in our workplace but I drive the cheapest, oldest car. Honestly, I'm kind of proud of it. My parents lived the same way - good money but lived modestly.

Actually this is one of the reasons why I have struggled with dating in my social class. I grew up with the means to wear designer clothes, have luxury items, etc. I never wanted to do that. I've found myself at odds with men who, like me, grew up with wealth and privilege. I did some traveling, like them, but didn't stay at luxury places. 

I love my parents and my upbringing but I do feel a strong sense of difference with many others. It goes to show that not everyone has a "tribe", or at least my "tribe" is all related to me. 

"You're my first, all right...

...my 10th 'first'." 

11 minutes ago, waffle said:

Especially that last one.  Women hate being put in the position where they have to lie.

Oh don't forget too - "Have you ever faked an orgasm?"

The "correct" answer is "Absolutely not, darling."

By God, I do love men but it seems like most of them are inflicted with crippling insecurity regarding their penises and sexual abilities and are quite fragile on the subject. 

Yeah I know my view on death is a little different, but I can't really help it at this point, it's definitely my career. I also used to do a TON of hospice work. I know my folks feel the same way, as did my grandparents who were strict "do not resuscitate" once they hit 60 years of age. I still remember being a teen, visiting grandma in the hospital, and yelling at a doctor when I realized he rescinded that upon entry without her consent. They lived to be very old but we all knew if they keeled over, at home or hospital, that was it. 

I know most people don't think like me, and definitely think like you do. I've taken care of many "bad outcome" cases, and some good ones, and for me, I'd rather die (hopefully peacefully) than risk the bad ones and my advance directives reflect this. Absolutely mortifies the couple friends who know this when we broached this subject, but they aren't my proxies so, oh well. 

At the end of the day, we all have to make choices on what we can deal with. I've met some lovely patients who are in awful shape at times, pain too, but are just happy to be with their families even if they have some severe medical issues, sometimes terminal. I respect that, hell, I took care of them so they can continue to enjoy life as they did. It was touching, really. 

But for me, being honest, there are some things that become before family (the people I love most) and being relatively cognitively intact is one of them. I won't say I'm not afraid of death, but there are other things I fear quite a bit more. 

Heck yeah, it's definitely cheaper (no HOAs, no coveted status, no neighborhood services - heh, what neighborhood??, and in most rural areas, there are cruddy, tiny schools - why live in a good $$ school district if you're not using that resource?) but in truth, I'd still go for rural even if it were more expensive because I like the setting an and the ability to have a bigger house but not have it *look* expensive, if I'm making sense...I enjoy nice things, sure, but I don't like other people to know I have nice things.

For me, it's also safety but for kind of an odd reason. I've been stalked by patients before, one recently, and when you're remote, it's a hinderance to them trying to come by your house. One of my colleagues lives either urban or 'burbs and yes, a couple people showed up to her house. No living on a bus, subway, or other major transit line for me. But again, that's probably not a concern for the vast majority of people but definitely is for me. 

Healthcare changes you 😝 My family knows - if I have a cardiac arrest or a major stroke at home, I want to stay home and pass away.

Just because she has had a threesome doesn't mean she wants one again in the future. Tell her that. I've known a couple people who have told me/others that they have had a threesome, guess what, these women are married now, monogamous, and one has a baby. People's sexuality does not stay static.

I echo what waffle has said: next time, don't ask questions if you don't want to know the answer. Such questions: Have you had a threesome? Am I best/biggest lover you'd had? 

My family lives in the country, my friends, not so much, but I don't see them much in person anyway. Yes, hospitals are further away, I think where I am planning to live, maybe 35-45 min? I don't know. I work in the medical field so I am maybe a bit better off than most people in a medical emergency but I'm of the opinion that if I have a cardiac event or a large stroke, I'd rather just pass away at home and that's even if it the hospital is 5 min away. I know I am young but I've seen the outcomes and don't want to risk it. So that's a trade off for sure. I get why people would want to be closer - kids and all. I don't care much anymore about in person culture events or concerts. I guess I used to, but I just don't care. If I really wanted to, I could take a day trip and get stuff/do stuff in an urban area and then go back home.

Living in a rural area, at least where I am, is much cheaper than living in suburbs. Taxes and all. No one with kids wants to live where I live - horrible, tiny school district with few resources and few taxes, which means less expense for me.

I appreciate the advice but I'm just complaining, haha, my situation will not change - I am not dating, hooking up, or making any effort in this regard...no meeting men, no parties, much to my parents' chagrin. I've decided that for me, it's not worth the effort and inevitable disappointment so my focus goes to other things. Will have been single for 3 years this winter and it's a big deal for me. 

Everyone needs to be realistic in what they can offer and how that lines up with what they are seeking. 

Yeah being in a more rural area definitely requires some planning ahead in terms of groceries, getting things, etc. As long as I am on the mail route and have internet, I'm happy because then I can get online deliveries. 

The urban/suburb definitely have the benefit of having things close by. Absolutely. Right now I am living in a city but planning to move back to rural, near where my family is. Even before the pandemic, I didn't utilize most of the benefits - I don't know my neighbors, I don't go to events, I don't want to meet people or celebs, etc. I got used to my treadmill. I usually play board games with people - that's it. I love driving too. I love to travel and explore new cuisines too but not willing to live near others. 

As a kid, I loved growing up more rural and the post pandemic era is making that even easier, I feel. 

6 hours ago, dias said:

Well, it seems you have met very controlling men. Why would he want her to quit her job (especially if having kids is not involved in the scenario)? It does not make any sense except of him being controlling. It might be the most popular case, dunno....

No, I haven't met a man like this. I'm using this as an example to show how it would be impossible for me to find what I want. I, personally, would want a partner that doesn't work and is domestic. But someone who has that intelligence that I want and such would 99.9% of the time have a good job and would not want this setup. 

Working men do not share the load with their working female partners, statistically. I've seen this play out so many times and household chores, while I do them, I've always hated them. I'd rather just be working more. 

41 minutes ago, dias said:

Actually this is a pretty generous offer. Laundry, cooking, cleaning are easy things to do, lots of free time to do whatever you want after that and pursue recreational hobbies. 

Definitely not for me, I prefer cleaning toilets at McDonald's but I am pretty sure there would be a lot of guys out there who would be satisfied with this agreement. I am surprised you can't find one. 

Again, lots of guys would be satisfied with this but would not actually do the work and/or I wouldn't actually want to have a relationship with. I am really attracted to intelligent (bonus if more intelligent than I) without much consideration for physical traits but men like that don't go for setups like this. 

Also, this isn't really something you can be open about as it kind of opens itself up to abuse. 

I liken it to the gender opposite of this: a well-educated, successful man in his career (say, something in the hard sciences) meets a woman who is his equal or better in those ways, maybe similar job, same income, same intellect, same education, etc. He wants to be with her and support them jointly but in return, she quits her job, stays home, commits to not having children, tends to the house and the chores, but has her own interests and keeps up with things so that she is emotionally, intellectually, and sexually fulfilling enough for him as a partner.

Total pipe dream but sometimes what we want in life is not possible.