Clarity

I think this is one of those self-fulfilling statements. It's almost impossible to predict how you'll meet someone - so of course it will almost always happen in an unexpected way, which will make you think that you weren't looking for *that* particular way of meeting someone. Also, how many people are going to admit - "yeah, I was desperately looking for someone when I met my SO"?! Sure, sometimes it happens when you stop looking, but I think this is more a case of people wanting to be a part of this statement in hindsight.

I like fit women with curves, i.e. nice chest and hips, but it seems that more and more, especially in North American culture, the description "curvy" is being hi-jacked by fat women. I'm sorry, but I can't sugar-coat it. When I hear someone describe themselves as "curvy" nowadays, I assume they carry at least a few extra pounds, if you know what I mean. It's generalization, but we all generalize at some juncture.

Let's see... She must be: - Beautiful - Physically fit and active - Intelligent - Fun - Caring - Just generally lovable. Is that too much to ask?

Women can't articulate what they actually want, this is one of the ongoing problems in these situations. Never trust a woman to tell you accurately what she wants, because, despite her best intentions, her subconscious has a different idea of it altogether. I'll add another friend-zone quote to the mix, if you hear this, you're in it: "You're SO sweet!"

Are you sure it's that and not you noticing those kind of girls more than others?

I think that's the definition for approaching that most people (including myself) have gone by in this thread. Perhaps I now understand your point of view, if you had taken "approaching" to mean "asking out".

Sometimes you think you're well on your way to recovery, but, at least for me, certain songs or lyrics have a way of taking you call the way back. Songs like this one, which I just heard for the first time recently, still leave a pit in my stomach, more than 5 months after the fact... "The Brilliant Dance" by Dashboard Confessional So this is odd, the painful realization that has all gone wrong. And nobody cares at all, and nobody cares at all. So you buried all your lover's clothes and burned the letters lover wrote, but it doesn't make it any better. Does it make it any better? And the plaster dented from your fist in the hall where you had your first kiss reminds you that the memories will fade. So this is strange, our sidestepping has come to be a brilliant dance where nobody leads at all, where nobody leads at all. And the picture frames are facing down and the ringing from this empty sound is deafening and keeping you from sleep. And breathing is a foreign task and thinking's just too much to ask and you're measuring your minutes by a clock that's blinking eights. This is incredible. Starving, insatiable, yes, this is love for the first time. Well you'd like to think that you were invincible. Yeah, well weren't we all once before we felt loss for the first time? Well this is the last time.

LOL, okay, looks like I was misunderstanding rather than you... sorry 'bout that! Okay, like you said, agree to disagree, although I don't think it's really a polarizing point to begin with; we're talking shades of gray.

I'm sorry, but I think you are repeatedly missing my point. I'm trying to stress that a woman does not have to do the asking at all, in most cases, I would expect the guy to do the asking. What I was saying, in response to your original point that a guy who can't ask a girl out, is probably not emotionally available for a relationship, applies equally to a female in my opinion. I think most girls out there are capable of asking a guy out. Being capable and doing it, are two different things, so I'm not implying that girls should ask guys out more often. I 'm just saying, if a girl or guys is incapable of asking another person they are attracted to, who is being friendly and approachable out, they are likely emotionally unavailable for a relationship, regardless of gender. Hopefully the bolding makes my point clearer. I think you keep interpreting what I am saying as an argument that women should ask men out more often, which it is not. As for my shyness, I'm pretty sure I'm getting past it fast. I just came out of a LTR (7 years) and have also gone through a pretty drastic physical transformation (lost 40 lbs. of fat, put on some muscle) and this has helped my confidence a lot. I've been out of the relationship for about 5 months, but I'm definitely not ready to date yet. However, with the extra attention I've noticed from girls since I made my physical changes and the resultant confidence boost, I don't foresee having too many problems approaching girls that I'm interested in in the future. It really is a lot about confidence...

But you were still able to ask. That's a sign of your personal maturity, IMHO. I think whoever is the shyer person in the situation, should have the ability to muster up the courage to initiate conversation with the other person, show interest, etc., even ask them out if need be. It doesn't mean that is has to come to that point, but they should be ready to do so, if they're ready for a relationship, IMHO. I'm a relatively shy guy, but not super shy. I know a lot of girls that I would consider more shy than myself. If I knew one of them was interested in me, and she was too shy to initiate conversation or interaction - that would be a turnoff for me (towards her personality). Whether you prefer to be asked, or whether you think that that leads to more stable relationships is another issue.

I never said that females asking males is the norm in any age group. I highly doubt that to be the case, since our society puts most of this pressure on the males in all age categories. As you put it, a guy who can't muster of the courage to ask an approachable woman out, probably isn't ready to date yet. All I was saying is, if a girl can't do the same, it has similar implications for her readiness. It's as much a sign of weakness for a female, IMHO.

I would argue that what you have said applies to both genders equally in current times...

These days it's probably all done through facebook...

Unless things have changed drastically since I was 13 (quite possible!), you don't get her number at that age, you either start "going out", or you don't

I think you actually agree with me, because you used the bolded qualifier, which is what I was getting at with the "signals" term.

I think this statement depends on what kind of signals the woman is putting out there. If men always initiated contact with a woman they were sincerely interested in, this site would have a lot less traffic

You hit the nail on the head with citing tradition, that's really what's being balked at in this case, I believe. That's why I said if the woman keeps asking, she is basically assuming the man's role, assuming to much traditional masculinity in that sense and at the same time, the man is assuming too much of a traditionally feminine role. Of course there are exceptions and people that will not care about these traditional standards, but we're generalizing. You're probably right about the perceived shyness, but if a woman makes a first move (it doesn't necessarily have to be asking the guy out, just enough to know that she is interested, in no uncertain terms, without all the subtle hooplah that women typically engage in ), then that might give a guy the confidence to approach her because the fear of rejection is much lessened. I hate to say it, but a lot of guys are paralyzed by this fear. I was before my first relationship, and only mustered up the courage to ask my (ex)-GF out when I heard through the grapevine that she liked me...

Batya, I agree that if the girl has to keep asking, then that's likely not a good sign, but I don't think that a girl/woman initiating contact for the first time, just to let the guy know she's interested, has any bearing on the future success of the relationship. Especially in the case of a shy guy, once he knows that the girl is interested, he will generally be able to take control of things - it's the ice-breaker that is mostly the hard part.

I think reasons that most guys would love to be approached by a girl, even if the girl ends up being one they would not go out with, are two-fold, IMHO: 1) As in any situation, regardless of gender, someone likes you. Whether it be the way you look, you act, or something else, that can never be anything but flattering and a boost for the ego. It tells you that, at least to someone, you're desirable and you have redeeming qualities. Now I know that for some people, this is much more common than others, so obviously the impact of this is lessened if it happens to you all the time... 2) Even in today's society, men are expected to "chase" the woman, for the most part. As males, we generally have to "generate our own chances" of finding romance. So if some chances happen upon us without any effort, that's a bonus! Even if it's not a girl you'd want to date, you were presented in a choice where you had nothing to lose and a lot to gain! 3) If the girl is someone that you'd like to date, then 1 & 2 still apply, but you're probably 100x times happier

I just read your whole thread and all I can say is "Wow!". Even as a guy (but a shy one), I am inspired by it in so many ways. Just to see a girl stressing over exactly the same things as many of us guys do and see her overcome her fears and just go for it is amazing. It didn't turn out the best in the end, but you did all you could and that's all one can ask for. I also take the bus to school and, as you say, you see the same people very often, and yes, I've seen some cute girls. Personally, as a shy guy, I've just never considered starting a conversation with a stranger on the bus, for many of the reasons you mentioned, but also because I've always assumed that this is a venue where most girls do not want to be approached (I also see the gym as such a venue, even though I see some of the cutest girls there). However, I think those rules don't count when the girl approaches the guys... call me old-fashioned, but I think most guys would love to be approached anywhere by a girl (if the guy is single). Even if he's not interested in the girl, it's always an ego boost, as long as it's not awkward or in the workplace or something like that. Anyway, thanks for chronicling your story and thanks for the inspiration.