caro33

*Shudder* Sounds awful. I wrote my post just after your first one, then I saw you guys had traded 6 posts or so, and I had missed the boat (and the point?) Need to be faster these days hey

I had the same thing - major (10 yr) relationship end suddenly (for me), then 3.5 years on my own, first time as a real adult on my own. Did the whole 'I am woman hear me roar' thing and enjoyed going out, doing my own thing, planning just for me and no longer needing to pretty much look after someone else. Then I met the perfect guy. And in those 3.5 years on my own I thought I had no baggage, no issues. I was the most well resolved and self-actualised dumpee I thought I knew. But you can't 'work through' some of your fears of commitment after being hurt if you aren't tested in a new situation. I've only realised how scared and 'needing of space' I am now I have this serious relationship #2. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, may or may not be relevant to you. If you've been at all 'overly attentive' (from her perspective) there's nothing wrong with staying nice but letting her miss you for a little while. Hey, my guy and I are getting married in 7 weeks, this stuff can work out just fine.

That's a bit rough! Besides the fact that that it is wrong, saying that kind of thing does not help people dealing with genuine issues of when to trust. Anyway, these ex situations are complex. There are friends and there are 'friends'. And sometimes those warning signs are nothing, but they need to be understood from both people's perspective (in the primary relationship). Adidas good for you, glad it worked out.

It's a tough situation but please be wary of keeping yourself in it because of time spent invested so far. I'm with candy604 on this. This might be of no help to you, but two years into my relationship with my ex I decided to turn a blind eye to the red flags I was noticing. Massive 20 foot tall flags with 'he's not really committed to this' emblazoned on them. A lovely guy but kind of weak and flakey. My best friend kept telling me to look at the situation objectively, but I had been through so much bull to that point, and had felt we had turned a corner (until the latest incident), and there was no way I was going to let all that investment of time and emotion go. I was hanging in there no matter what. Eight years later, through some big downs but many ups, when the guy had finally up and left with no warning because he didn't want a committed relationship after all, my friend reminded me of that decision I'd taken years before. He still teases me about that 10 year 'investment' and its payoffs. It wasn't all bad, but it was a hell of a lot more hard work than seemed justified, particularly now i've had a fair bit of time to reflect and have a much more committed relationship. I guess my message is try to not tolerate much more than you would tolerate in a 'new' relationship. As time passes the 'investment' angle only intensifies - it still doesn't make it a good way to spend valuable years of your life.

It’s tangled logic isn’t it, real chicken and egg stuff. One hears ‘you should trust’ and ‘don’t be in the relationship if you can’t trust’ on the one hand, and also ‘don’t be taken for a ride, your guts must have some point, check if you have to’. I kind of agree with both, depends on the way you are snooping maybe! It can get out of control, and if that’s the case – if you know you’re acting a little nuts and there's no objective reason to doubt - then perhaps try and curb the impulses and have a look at where your own issues might be coming from. But hey, if you have cause to doubt – and it seems you did – then checking these things is a reasonable measure of self-protection. You need to know how the other person prioritises your feelings and the need to be honest with you.

I don't understand her rationale. Did she think you had an open relationship or was she trying to make you jealous? Did you actually mean to sleep with your friend?

Precisely.

Not sure those threads mentioned were particularly representative of the double standard (given the background issues involved in each), but the point is still valid, there is that generally held view that men are allowed a bit of risque fun, and are expected to do have it, whereas women are not. I think it's a combo of - - Women and men are wired differently, in general. it's generally held that men are more visual, women more emotional. How much of that is fact and how much is what's culturally expected is debatable. and of course not all men are the same as not all women are the same. But even with those qualifications, women seeking out meaningless visual entertainment (ie strip shows) is less likely than men seeking out meaningless visual entertainment. (But to complete the generalisation, we girls seem to enjoy shoes more ) - Basic sexism, women should be 'pure', men should be 'experienced'. The double standard has been around forever and as we know is very much institutionalised in some cultures. I won't bore everyone with history lecture but we women have only relatively recently stopped being the possession of men, even in western culture. Biology would be behind most of that, as the life-givers we're reasonably valuable to a man in a 'pure' state so his genetics are passed on, not someone else's. I think the double standard is just a fact of life that we can try and erode over time, but in the meantime pick people who match our own values. My partner seems to be very feminist, which is a wonderful thing to find. He takes women very seriously. He is also a basic visual guy, but he has been to strip shows and finds the whole thing a bit odd. I am quite confident that he will behave himself at his own bachelor party and other than that am trying to block the issue from my mind! Hey, I know that lap dances generally involve some direct contact (which I'm not comfortable with) but the whole 'rubbing their crotches against the man's erect penis, and even the girl touching, squeezing and rubbing his erect penis with her hand' horrifies me. Is this generally true?

When are you getting married? Are you going through the planning stages and actively imagining yourself with him 'for the rest of your life'? How long have you known about these things that bother you and have you always reacted with the same strong emotions? The only reason I ask is because I think sometimes the real issue can be one's own fear of the marriage, and being hurt in some way when it's 'too late' (i.e. you've tied the knot). This means that you are jumping at shadows and reacting powerfully to what you think might be a massive red flag to get out, but it's really you responding more to your own fears of being hurt/left or trapped. I agree with the other posters that at 19 he probably was on par with the 14 year old. You can't get into his head on this, but you have been given clear signs that he's a good man and he's got the right values. I feel terrible for him if the behaviour of his relatives means he is judged as a child molester, particularly by you, who has agreed to marry him and be his closest ally. You might be reacting for all the right reasons, you might not. We're not there witnessing what you are or picking up on the signs you might be registering sub-consciously. But please ask yourself why you might be feeling like this and if there's a chance you're doing the pre-wedding jitters thing on some level. I certainly did (and still am) and have to actively watch myself and my behaviour so that I am being fair on the poor fiance and not punishing him in some way for all the fear I have about giving him so much power to hurt me. It's not admirable but it's still there, and probably completely natural when you have some history of being hurt or betrayed. Counselling seems like a great idea, the best of luck to you both!

MJMJ, I ask you again: what would make you feel better able to cope with all this uncertainty you are experiencing? Only you know the answer to this. If you are driving yourself mad with this and you need answers, you have to ask him. None of us have a psychic connection to your boyfriend or have any idea what his distant cousin's bachelor party plans are likely to be. If you can cope with the uncertainty you are experiencing, and decided to keep quiet because you have already pushed it too far with him, then let it go. Please. Once again, no one here can give you the answers to what some other person's plans are. Of course you already know my fundamental position to date, which is that you need to think about what your issue actually is here, and what his values are, but you have conveniently ignored all of those sorts of comments and I'm sure will continue to ignore them.

Emma, Am still with Hope75 on this. Yes, he has been dishonest, but he has also known you would get upset. Objectively that is the simplest reason for his omission, not because he wants this girl as more than a friend. It was over with her four years before he even started going out with you. Four years! And six years all up! Unless there's a lot more to this that you don't know or aren't letting on about, the most obvious answer is that she is not a threat. She really has made the transition to platonic friend and shouldn't be viewed too strongly as "the ex". What is the threat is this has driven something between you two, where he is holding things away from you. Your challenge is to address that. Having said that, if he has agreed to stop something and he doesn't, and if the rules were VERY CLEAR and the issue is a big enough deal, the problem becomes more of a power struggle. If he refuses to engage with you on this you have a more fundamental value conflict, where he is not taking you seriously enough about something important to you. But try not to let your insecurity run this one - she really is not likely to be a threat. His need to keep a friend is also important and you should try to value that at least a little. Good luck.

I'm so sorry but this sounds like he is either not worthy of you, or you have a major value clash that it may not be worth trying to treat the symptoms any further. You've had the break-up, the explanations, the promises of better behaviour etc. I reckon this is as good as it's going to get and you either deal with it or move on to someone who doesn't behave like this. Re his behaviour, in the 'normal' world I inhabit, this stuff would be really on the nose. It's immature and disrespectful. If he (or you) turn this into a you merely 'not being able to cope with the fact that he's friends with women' issue, that's doing you an injustice. Basically his 'friends' (regardless of gender) are apparently treating his relationship with you with disregard. He is encouraging that, whether it's obvious or not. He needs to grow up and tell them their behaviour is inappropriate. He should not be passing on to you that that woman said you should get over it, he should be saying to you 'honey I'm so sorry, I will have a word to X and this will never happen again'. And it should never happen again. The fact that they are women who to all intents and purposes are flirting with him, and even saying they're his 'girlfriends', and he is not actively discouraging them, is really lame. My best friend (other than my fiance) is a guy, and we would call late occasionally and I would say I miss him when it's been a while. But it's not flirty, and no way would I cramp his style with his girlfriends. I want him to be happy, not to cause any concerns in his love life! But this is my world. There may be different expectations if he is in a certain industry, or you guys are young. To be honest, I wouldn't think that should make any difference, and you deserve better anyway, but sometimes these things DO make a difference. For example, if he and his friends are below 23 this behaviour is a bit more to be expected (not for everyone but it happens). If he's 30 or older it's ridiculous. And perhaps he's in a female-centric business? Perhaps I should read your other posts... Anyway, 2 years is a long time to spend in a relationship where his 'close' friends don't seem to know you or have respect for your relationship. The question that immediately poses for me is 'is he ready for a serious relationship or is he just playing at it?' Does he fancy himself as a bit of a stud?

This is a difficult one, I get where you are coming from Emma, but I also agree with the general sentiment that you should try and tone back your conditions on this. In my situation they went out for around 6 months, of which 6 weeks or so was consistent and good. They had not shared a friendship before and he has been heartbroken afterward. He'd been hung up on her only a few months before we met, and he told me they were 'best friends' although it was always him calling her. And I mean ALWAYS. I cannot begin to tell you how hung up I was (and still am to some degree) about this. Felt cheated on. Same deal, she's really hot and is also the subject of a whole bunch of 'isn't she hot' web threads that feral men have been posting to. So that really kills your self-esteem. But the upshot is that I sought counselling and also had him go. The counsellor has confirmed that my fiance acted a bit dumb but there was/is actually nothing to worry about. He really is over the fabulous ex, unlike me! I don't know how to help you to feel better except to say that from an objective perspective the fact is that the four years that went by between her and you would tend to show they are not pining for one another. He has shown you a willingness to cut the friendship down (I am impressed he did that, it took my guy a while). The text would be concerning to me too but only because it's tapping into worries you already had. I suggest you continue as you said before, give him a chance, let it slide. But perhaps also keep a calm eye open. Ask him occasionally if they have been in touch. No hysterics, no accusations. He may start to feel more comfortable about how he really feels about this situation (ie 'I get what you're saying honey but she was my friend and I would like to catch up occasionally'). That's better than him hiding what are likely to be innocuous text conversations and you then feeling shut out and betrayed. Better to take a team approach and see if he can help you to feel better while also helping him to understand you and not feel too constrained by your demands.

MJMJ I'm with RC and the bunch of other people who have advised you on this and other threads that you will push him away if you keep this up. I am astonished you haven't already, he must love you very much to tolerate all your suggestions he can't be trusted in any situation. (Tell me, does he still dare take his phone into the bathroom?) Your fear of this situation, and apparent unwillingness to tone your approach and have some faith in your man and yourself seems extraordinarily damaging. Look, most of us have insecurities, and we also get why you are worried about bachelor parties. But as many people have said, they are a fact of life, and the issue is then how you and your much maligned guy set boundaries for yourselves. You do not seem to get this, and you seem to think we do not get you. But we do, you are simply being told that your perspective and approach to the relationship need to change. This feels like groundhog day, and you have not once responded to any time anyone has asked you this, but WHAT TYPE OF MAN IS HE? For example, what are your responses to the following: - Does he have nice friends? what do they think of you? - Does he get drunk often? when he does, does he lose his judgement? Does he keep himself 'nice'? - Is he generally punctual and true to his word to you? - What are his family's values? Do they respect women? Respect relationships? Appear to respect you? Does he do what his family wants? - Has he ever made statements that show he has cheated in the past? that he would if he could get away with it? What does he think of people who cheat on TV? Friends of his who have? - Has he been to strip shows before? Does he speak glowingly of them? - How does he feel about commitment? Do you get the sense he's truly available to settle down with you, or is he wary about talking about the future when it includes you? These are the sorts of things that can shed light on to someone's character. - If your responses are generally positive and you think he has a good character then PLEASE give him some space and stop the character assassination. - If you generally don't have a feel for the answers then I ask you to pay more attention to your relationship, or realise that maybe you're not ready for one. You should have some reasonable feel for his character after over a year together. - If you feel negatively about the answers or can't even get a positive gut reaction to these questions then you have a problem - either you are not ready for a relationship or he is not of a worthy enough character for you. Walk away. What I find really frustrating is that every time someone asks you to look at your boyfriend's personality or take a hard look at yourself, your response is along the lines of 'but wouldn't any guy do [that bad thing that is the current topic], why wouldn't my guy do it' and then we keep on in this cycle. Not all men are unable to be trusted. You have been told this. So the question is, IS YOUR'S? In what circumstances can you trust him, and are these circumstances in any way related to reality? If he can only be 'trusted' where he has no access to any phones, no alone time of any sort where there might be other women, or in fact, no time away from you, perhaps the issue is not him. It certainly is not this particular bachelor party. What happens at the next bachelor party? The next night out or weekend away with his friends? How can this ever be resolved for you? What would it take? And I mean resolved for good, not just him not going to this one party.

see for the rest of my 2 cents' worth. Having just gone through the posts of both MJMJ and hope123 I am positive you are the same person. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but for anyone responding to your posts it's worth them being aware of the whole picture and the range of issues you have raised. MJMJ/hope123, please give yourself and your guy a break. If your alarm bells are going off so much perhaps you need some time out from the relationship anyway, time to take stock and focus on yourself, and also think hard about what you want from a relationship and what might be reasonable expectations of others.

I'm sorry but I am with the others. By keeping in contact like that he has shown that he does not share your values in a fundamental sense. That is, assuming he knew your position on this. Did you talk about it much? Could he just have been a bit dumb and somehow not realised that staying in contact with this women was pretty off? The question for you is then whether that is good enough. Every minute spent from here on with someone who is bascially not on your wavelength re what a relatonship is, is a minute of your life you cannot get back. When you one day find that relationship that is worthy of you, you will probably regret the time you wasted on this guy. I know that's a bit toxic and lecturing but my god it's true. In summary, he might be nice, he might mean well most of time, he might not be a bad person, but he might not really be in the right place for the relationship you want and need. Even if he could "change" he might also have done such irretrievable damage at this stage that you moving on is the best thing.

MJMJ, I wonder, are you the same person as hope123? If you are not, I am absolutely staggered by the coincidence. You seem to have a great deal in common. It appears you have trust issues. You have been told this before. I know that doesn't make life any easier, but it also doesn't make your boyfriend a cheater. As has been said before, how your boyfriend will behave is absolutely rooted in what type of person he is. This is the key issue. You seem to be assuming the worst of him – how do you think he feels about that? I'm not sure anyone deserves that, certainly not if there's no evidence that it's warranted, and if they continue to be patient with you. I'm sure we can all talk further with you about how to manage this issue, but until you engage a bit more about who he is and where you're coming from, it's hard to be of much help. This is not to say that bachelor parties are not concerning, I myself am concerned about my fiance's impending bachelor party. But he knows the boundaries and I trust him - I have to trust him! The bachelor party is not the issue here though. Neither are the stained sheets, the texts/phonecalls, etc. Each time you have had the same response from people – try talking to him, try trusting him, etc. I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shut you down, I'm really not, but carrying out surveys with "here is an incidence of something, is he cheating/will he cheat, or am I being paranoid?" and then ignoring the answers, doesn't seem like it's really helping your situation. What would you like from the people here, and what are you looking for from your boyfriend? What would it take for you to trust him?

Completely understandable that you would have the occasional setback, I think it happens to many of us who are going through this kind of thing, or who think this way. If you really must, how about you take records of what it says, so when you go back to check you know for sure what's changed and what hasn't. The best thing to do is of course to stop checking but don't beat yourself up about it if you can't help it. If you need to check you need to check. Just try to ration yourself, try to not jump to conclusions, and please don't get caught. I kept checking over a long time - it took many months to convince me there was no point, nothing bad was happening. You do end up getting bored with the fear, believe it or not. But more importantly, please listen to you gut instinct here - he is lovely, you are happy. You also have no proof of anything untoward. That's the biggest "fact" you have to go on. Tell yourself you have nothing to worry about as much as you can. Truly, if he wanted to cheat, he would. The online profile that you know about would be the dumbest possible way to do it, unless he wanted to get caught. This doesn't really gel with what you're saying. Good luck, and try to occupy your worrying time with something else if you can.

Hi there, I wonder if he's not just going a bit passive-aggressive on you? Just thinking "why should I acquiesce to her demands, I haven't done anything wrong". He might feel resentment, and think that you are implying he can't be trusted. He also may simply not value this issue like you do and have zoned you out. Now none of these statements makes you wrong or implies you are being unreasonable, but whether you like it or not, he still might be acting like this for the above reasons. If so, the issue for you is do you want to be with someone who doesn't share your values, or apparently take you seriously about things he might disagree with you about? Perhaps he is not worthy of you generally and this is the red flag. Or perhaps he IS worthy of you, but he needs to demonstrate his commitment. This might be a way of talking about it with him - say "honey, I know you're busy, and this might seem like a silly thing to you. However, it means something to me. How about we just fix this now and put the issue to bed". If he refuses, the obvious question is why? What difference does it make to him? If he gets cranky, he is being unreasonable. As long as you are calm and not accusing him of anything, asking him to delete his profiles is not an unreasonable thing to do. I had a similar type of problem with my fiance - he was persisting in behaviour that had me feeling undervalued and he basically zoned out my repeated requests to be taken seriously because he just didn't think there was a problem. When I was finally at the stage of saying that the "one" for me wouldn't disregard my feelings and perhaps he wasn't the one for me after all, he switched pretty quickly. He is now in training to be better at empathising, and he's doing well. So my point is that it's not about the profiles, or him potentially keeping his options open (he might be, but there's no real evidence to support that) it's about how he's reacting to you. Don't be afraid to say "look mate you need to walk your talk here, and until you do I'm not interested". If he's genuine, and he finally "gets" that this IS a big deal because it's a big deal to YOU, he'll start doing the right things quickly. If he can't be bothered, it's better you know he's not the one for you now.

This is hard, absolutely. But melrich said that this is where is comes down to trust. Or he said something like that. I agree with this. You can NEVER know what is going on in someone else's head, you will never have ALL the information. You have made a commitment to him and that involves some level of trust, and also being worthy of his trust. Ask yourself if you are actually doing that. But go on what you have and while you should let your intuition help you focus on issues, don't underestimate the importance of also looking at who he is as a person. If his actions toward you are always decent and fair, if he has been trustworthy as far as you are aware, give him the benefit of the doubt. As his girlfriend you kind of owe him that. In the meantime, ask yourself what your own issues might be and what you might need to hear to feel better. And keep one eye open! Sorry, but there will always be that conflict between "am i being taken for a ride? what if I am being lied to?" and keeping your head in the sand with "my dearest X could NEVER lie to me". I suggest trying to occupy the middle ground - be aware that people can lie and don't put all your self-worth into what someone else thinks of you, but give your SO some trust and compassion, and also be a bit kinder to yourself. If you can manage it, try to give yourself a break from the worry and just enjoy your relationship for a while!

see "Cheating? Over thinking things?" in Trust and Relationships...

Hope I have just gone back to your other threads - you appear to have major trust issues. And the things you've said he's said have not made him look bad at all - I would be completely at the end of my tether if I was him and it sounds like he's dealing with you rationally and trying to be fair. PLEASE talk to someone about this, and I mean a mature person you can trust but who is objective. A counsellor would be ideal. This forum is great but you might also need someone who can really spend some time with you unpicking where you are coming from. You don't want this first major relationship to turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom and betrayal - this is a big deal and I understand your pain but it really looks like the issue is with you right now. Having said that, always happy to provide advice if it's of use, just think it would be worth you getting some quality time with someone who can help you talk things out.

Ok, but no one else has quite the same investment in this relationship as you do. People say dumb things, or rather, say things because of their own issues, often not really based on an indepth analysis of your situation. Suggesting he might be cheating based solely on what you've advised us would be irresponsible. Please stop trying to poll for the "right" answer - I assume you have not got it because you have this same thread on two areas of the forum and although you ask if you are overanalysing, you are basically ignoring any advise given to you saying you ARE on the wrong track. Ask yourself what are you looking for? People to say "damn girl, he's definitely doing the wrong thing"? If anyone said that they would be doing you and your bf a tremendous disservice, and you would be doing him a tremendous disservice to believe it. As I asked last time, what could he do right now to make you feel better? And tell us more about his character - is he polite? Nice when drunk? Does he have friends you like? Does he respect women? Does he sanction cheating "when you can get away with it"? Does he take your thoughts into consideration and take you seriously? How would you describe him as a person?

Maybe he just loves you and hopes you'll get over it! Why are you so determined to believe he is cheating on you? Yes, he might be cheating. Any of us MIGHT be cheating, and might deny etc. But ask yourself - what exactly could your bf do right now to make you feel better? Drop you to prove his innocence? This sounds like drowning a witch to prove she's not a witch - he's damned either way isn't he. Perhaps you actually want the relationship to end? Look I do this stuff too, I get the whole neurotic thing. So believe me when I say this - you are not sounding good here, and the other posters (on the other thread) have said the same thing. If you are trying to sabotage the relationship you are going about it well. Some questions: (a) Do you have a history of this? Worrying about being deceived? Have you been cheated on in the past? (b) As another poster just put to this same thread in the infidelity section, have you been a cheater? © What kind of person is he? What do you think of his character? What do your friends and family think of his character? (d) Has he told you anything about his past that would lead you to believe he had issues with boundaries in relationships?

I completely agree with melrich and have just posted a reply to this same set of threads in another part of the forum. The whole 'you can't take your phone into the bathroom and close the door' thing makes you look a little unhinged and completely undermines any chance you have of getting to the (perhaps banal) truth. I'm not saying you should discount your internal alarms but be a little more discreet. And given the apparent the absense of any real damning evidence you can't trust him please be fair to him. Think how you would feel if he did this to you and you had nothing to hide...