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Can I get help without it being on religious terms...


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If you're devoulty religious, you may be offended, but bear with me here...

 

I posted yesterday wondering if anyone would consider me a problem drinker and a couple of folks that I may be. Someone mentioned the 12-step program, so I looked it up and, to my dismay, found it to be very God-based.

 

Here's how I see it. If I'm going to do this, I'm doing it on my terms because I want to...God can stay out of it! I'll be an agnostic til the day I die and want to do this to prove to myself that I can make some changes and build a safe and fulfilling life.

 

Do any of you know of any methods that are not based in religion?

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I found this... I am looking for some resources, but this might be some food for thought....

 

One Atheist's Opinion (about AA)

by: Bill C.

My friend, let me qualify myself. I am a card-carrying, dyed in the wool athiest. Been there (still _am_ there!), done that, even bought the t-shirt. And I'm not a bar-stool athiest. I have 2 years of college level study of philosophy and theology. I know the questions and the rebuttals on both sides of the coin, and have formed my opinion based on that information.

 

And I also spent the better part of the last 16 years going in and out of AA. And, of course, most will think that's because I don't have a personal God. They are not only entitled to that opinion, but more than welcome today to voice it in my presense. But I know the real reason. And that is because I was so unique. I did everything I could to _show_ these poor, ignorant folk how unique/smart/educated I was. And I wore my athiesm on my sleeve, or more like a chip on my shoulder, for all to see. And it served me naught.

 

Today, I have learned to translate. Today, I realize that _I_ am the "stranger in a strange land" (boy, that's make a good title for a book, wouldn't it?), and that it is I that have to fit in with the rest of AA, not AA that has to fit in with me.

 

I've been told before that the work is mine to do, but that we all need navigational tools. For me today, that is true. I do not embark on a journey into unknown territory (like life, or even Ohio!!) without a map!! Ask a sailor if he sails new waters without a chart. Willing to bet he doesn't. And again, for me today, the program of Alcoholics Anonymous _is_ that navigational aid.

 

I understand today that the vast majority of AAs honestly believe that their personal God is solely responsible for their sobriety, and for saving their very lives to enjoy it. Beliefs of this sort are very closely held, and strongly defended. And rightfully so. If I think I can fly in the face of that belief with impunity, I am sadly mistaken. I myself would have the same defensive reaction were I to feel that someone or something was threatening that which was responsible for my very life. Violently, if necessary. Everytime. It's human nature. The preservation instinct.

 

So learn to translate, if you can. The very first line of the preamble states that "Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship", and anything that I do to isolate or separate myself from that fellowship lessens my chances of long term sobriety. I've learned this lesson the hard way.

 

When it is necessary for purposes of group identification, I am even willing today to go so far as to say that I recognize my "co-dependence" on God. For my sobriety surely depends on many of those who say their sobriety depends on God. That makes me co-dependent. And I can use that, and say that today, and it doesn't even hurt. Of course, the only thing it ever _did_ really hurt before was my overblown ego that kept me drunk.

 

And I don't want to be drunk anymore.

 

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste....

 

----

 

Bill C.

Clearwater, Fl.

email removed

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and another one.... FYI, I AM NOT religious... just trying to help out...

 

How the 12 Steps Work for This Agnostic

by a recovering agnostic alcoholic in Texas

If I do not believe in a god, what is my higher power? How can I apply the steps. What is it that helps me, the agnostic, get sober and stay sober? I gave up searching for an understanding of my HP. I gave up searching for the existence. Call it a character defect if you will, but I simply cannot believe. So how do I apply the principles of AA? How do I stay sober?

 

Strange as it may seem, it is mostly step 3 and 7: I turn my will and my life and all things over to the care of everything, but me. Instead of going against the stream of life, running my head against walls, trying to do the impossible, I turn the outcome of my endeavors to the natural flow of things. I constantly remind myself that I cannot control my fellow humans. Their lives are controlled by the laws of nature, just as mine. I remind myself, whatever I do, I never have all the facts which may effect the outcome. I just can do the best I know how with the data available. Naturally then, I cannot plan on the outcome. Even in physics there is the "uncertainty principle". Chance and the unknown play too much a part in my daily life to insist on a certain outcome.

 

But this "turning over" is essentially an act of non-action. Non-action in the past was my downfall, also. It led to constant concentration on my self and my problems. What else must I do? The key here lies in the recognition that the worst problem for an alcoholic is self-centeredness. The solution to that problem is concentration on others. All of steps 4 through 12 are principles which help me to concentrate on others than myself. This very act of letting go of resentments, self-pity, fear of others and whatever else keeps my thoughts going in circles about myself, this act of reaching out, forgetting for today myself, keeps me sober and serene. While I am occupied with paying attention to the needs of others, I am free of myself.

 

I don't mean to imply that I should not take care of myself. My natural needs must be met. But no more is required.

 

Step 7, asking the higher power to relieve me from all defects which stand in the way of my usefulness to my fellows is the active complement of step 3. In the 7 step prayer I see that the believer simply asks help to be a good person. What is a "good person"? - A person who does no harm to others. A person who helps others. As long as I am a good person, I need not fear others. As long as I take care to know what acts of mine might harm others, I am not concentrated on myself, but on others. I stay sober. In step 4, 5, and 6 I have learned what defects of mine tend to hurt others. Constant vigilance against these defect keep me on my toes, keep me away from getting stuck in the rut of self-pity, fear, and resentments. I practice the opposite of the defect. Instead of letting fear of failure lead me into procrastination, I practice doing difficult things first. Instead of letting impatience bring my brain to a boil, I recite "accept the things I cannot change", and so practice patience. It is easy to fall back into bad habits. By practicing the opposite, I practice and acquire good habits. Still, I need Step 10 to avoid falling back and meditation in step 11 to learn more of what is required of me to stay happy and serene without a drink.

 

My Higher Power? - The laws of nature. Those I know of, and those I don't know of. And I trust, they don't change every day.

 

 

An Agnostic in Texas

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Molly's absolutely right.......the 12-step programs simply say "a higher power", NOT God. Your higher power could be your guitar, or a dandelion, or a lint ball......doesn't matter, it's anything that gets you motivated enough to better yourself. Does it IMPLY religion? Sure, if you choose to look at it that way. But I can promise you, there's no praying, no singing hymns, nothing like that, just a bunch of people who are trying to cure themselves of their addiction and using a "higher power" as a focal point. I wasnt' religious in the least when I went, and was highly skeptical of having "God stuff" thrown at me to add to my problems. Didn't have to worry about it a bit. Yes, one of the sayings is "Let Go and Let God".......but if you're that uptight and can't bend just a LITTLE for the overall good the program has to offer, then I'm not sure what else to tell you. Just keep in mind that it's about people helping each other with support and their stories and their hopes and fears of slipping back.

 

You said you want to do this on your own.....I'd guess you're gonna have a wicked hard time of that, considering you asked for help! You wouldn't have asked if you could do it alone, would you? lol Just humble yourself a little, and let other people who understand it help you. TRY IT. If you don't like it, no one's gonna force you to stay. But I think you'll find that the benefits far outweigh any religious doubts you might have!

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As a member of AA I can tell you the difference.

 

Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell.

 

Spirituality is for those that have already been there!

 

There is a huge difference between spirituality and religion.

 

What the progam involves is you giving up your will to a higher power. If you want to make that a tree or mother nature or whatever.....or to the designer of the intelligent design of the world. It will be the God of YOUR understanding. Not anybody elses. Nobody preaches there. Nobody.

 

The reason for that is your will is leading you in the wrong path. It makes the program easier if you believe in a higher power.

 

Contempt prior to investigation is what will keep you from getting better, and if it isn't the God issue, it will be something else. Go investigate FIRST, then make a decision. ;-)

 

Just my opinion.

 

A

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi there 8)

 

I know the feeling of having doubts about AA due to what I perceive as the religious nature of the meetings and philosophy. I also think that in different areas of the country, there may be a different vibe, or tone, to the meetings.

I'm concerned that I have a drinking problem. If I drink, I don't always get drunk, but sometimes, I do. I'd say, about twice, or three times a year. As they say in AA, it isn't how often you do it, it's what happens when you do. And, I get in some weird kind of trouble when I get drunk, usually. Then, of course, there are the endless recriminations the following morning, embarrassment, shame, all of that.

 

The problem I've encountered in AA is basically the religion thing. I know that people say "It's about spirituality" Bla bla. But, I don't feel comfortable in AA because My spirituality is strongly alternative. People's fears and ignorance about my particular religion/spirituality seem to overshadow the principles of AA. I got really worn out fast, going to AA meetings and hearing people talk about "The Man Upstairs". I never knew that balding slob in the apartment above mine was God. Gee.

 

I feel really left out at the AA meetings I've gone to, precisely because of my strong views regarding the nature of Divinity (Goddess AND God, more reflective of the presense of the divine within each and every one of us). And even in the 21 century, many people have decidedly unprogressive ideas when it comes to alt religions. In my area, AA is overwhelmingly Christian based. And lately, it seems that there is a conservative Christian agenda to eradicate certain other faiths. Like mine. I'm Pagan. Some program people really get ripped about that, and their fear and loathing goes deeper than "Principles before Personalities".

 

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great people in AA. It helps a lot of folks, and should be considered as the first line in any suspected alcohol addiction situation due to several factors: 1~It's free. Donations are encouraged to help keep it going, but NEVER forced. 2~ It's widely accessable. Lots of meetings, and at all different times of the day. In some places, there are late night meetings too. 3~It works if you relate to it.

 

The problem I find, is that I'm falling through the cracks.

I've looked at the MM section on this board (Moderation Management) and took the dependency quiz. I scored low, based on current drinking habits.

I'm confused now, because I answered the questions honestly. I feel like a messed up freak lately, because of this.

So, now I don't know where I fall, and have a lot to think about.

 

Good luck to you, I hope you are able to get it together, I'm sure trying to, and it isn't easy.

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That is horrible that you had that experience in AA, because that is not what it is about. It isn't about who's got who's God. That is your own business. It shouldn't matter if you are gay, or what ethnic group you come from or your social status....or your God.

 

I should hope that there are some different groups around that you could go to.

 

If you need someone to talk to who for sure will not judge who you are......please email me. I would be glad to talk.

 

A

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