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Thread: Infertile men and quality of life - impossible unless beta male.

  1. #41

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    Originally Posted by Capricorn3
    Why do infertile women exist?
    That's why I am asking. What is the answer? Getting Ready for a First Date

  2. #42
    Forum Supporter ~Seraphim ~'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Silent47XXY
    That's why I am asking. What is the answer?
    Because biology is not perfect. Humanity is not perfect we are not supposed to be .

  3. #43
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    Wow, as someone with seemingly endless health problems and lots of fertility issues I find this to be an incredibly inane conversation. Millions of people contribute to the world without reproducing. Leonardo Da Vinci never had children, so clearly, made no contribution to the world. Same goes for Isaac Newton, Tchaikovsky, Helen Keller, Baruch Spinoza, the list goes on and on. If you are going to define your life by one element only then you are clearly choosing a diminished and limited life and that is what you want. Or you could open your view and realize there are many ways to positively contribute to the world and you are too wrapped up in yourself to notice.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator Capricorn3's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by arjumand
    Wow, as someone with seemingly endless health problems and lots of fertility issues I find this to be an incredibly inane conversation. Millions of people contribute to the world without reproducing. Leonardo Da Vinci never had children, so clearly, made no contribution to the world. Same goes for Isaac Newton, Tchaikovsky, Helen Keller, Baruch Spinoza, the list goes on and on. If you are going to define your life by one element only then you are clearly choosing a diminished and limited life and that is what you want. Or you could open your view and realize there are many ways to positively contribute to the world and you are too wrapped up in yourself to notice.
    Worth repeating.

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  6. #45
    Platinum Member bluecastle's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by arjumand
    Wow, as someone with seemingly endless health problems and lots of fertility issues I find this to be an incredibly inane conversation. Millions of people contribute to the world without reproducing. Leonardo Da Vinci never had children, so clearly, made no contribution to the world. Same goes for Isaac Newton, Tchaikovsky, Helen Keller, Baruch Spinoza, the list goes on and on. If you are going to define your life by one element only then you are clearly choosing a diminished and limited life and that is what you want. Or you could open your view and realize there are many ways to positively contribute to the world and you are too wrapped up in yourself to notice.
    Mic drop.

    I don’t mean to shrug off what you’re reckoning with, but the way you’re focusing on this, at least to my eyes, is as troublesome as the condition and tough cards life has dealt you here and there in the pursuit of love.

    Some people are infertile, some marriages end—these are human stories, not merely yours. Heck, “masculinity” is basically just a story too, a word we can define however we please. Your own definition strikes me as dangerously narrow, and potentially more problematic in forming sustainable relationships with women as the fertility business.

  7. #46
    Bronze Member WaywardKiwi's Avatar
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    Hey Silent47XXY,

    Why do infertile people exist?

    On biological evolutionary level, I think that infertility in human populations is necessary and desirable for both population management and creating functioning human communities. As a gregarious, socially reliant species (as in we cannot survive individually), it is necessary that some members of our species are biologically inclined toward preservation of social cohesion and maintenance by forgoing individual procreation. If the social structure fails, all human offspring are put at risk, so from a evolutionary perspective, a person who is selected to maintain society over self-procreation could arguably be thought of as more important than one who evolutionary purpose is individual procreation. Furthermore, given the extended juvenile stage of humans (roughly 20% of our life-span, 12-15 years), and the relatively fragility of our species et al, it is necessary and desirably to have individuals ready to act as adoptive or surrogate parents.

    On a societal level, while we may still on some base level be subject to pure biological imperative, it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the social super-structure we have imposed beyond these animal urges. Fertility is neither the sole, nor the primary, determiner of social status or importance in that society. Financial success, academic ability, physical dominance, popularity, artistic acheivement are all factors we regularly consider when ascribing social value to an individual.

    On a personal level, I consider a man (or woman) who adopts prima facie more socially desirable and important than one who biologically fathers a child. I hold this belief because adoption demonstrates on its face a conscious commitment to wider social cohesion, generosity (financial and spiritual), and, due to the rigorous vetting adoptive parents undergo in the majority of jurisdictions, a certain level of social success and status. Coming from a childhood where my biological father was sub-optimal as a dad, I can attest that his fertility is not a primary factor for me, his eldest son, in adjudicating his status in my eyes. There is an saying which demonstrates that fertility is not the most important factor in adjudging a man's value; 'Nearly anyone can father a child; only a real man can be a dad'.

    Finally, I would encourage you to move away from the alpha/beta male dichotomy; it really only applies if you believe in it. In wider society, male social status and worth is far more complex, and constant shifting as we further account for historic white male hegemony and it's impact of other groups.

    In conclusion, I believe infertility is biologically desirably in a segment of the population and, while it does carry a social stigma, ultimately socially neutral when balanced against other factors. I can't argue against your personal experience, but I would encourage you to assess whether some of the difficulties you have faced originate not from your biological infertility, but your underlying self-image as a inferior man.

    Good luck,

    T

    EDIT: I began writing this before arjumand posted their far more concise and excellent response, which I also agree with.

  8. #47
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    Originally Posted by Silent47XXY
    I keep reading that infertile men should simply accept and move on with life. How exactly do you accept that you are no competition to fertile males, you have no genetic, primal, evolutionary purpose to exist, you will die at average age 48.8 and be extinct (study on azoospermia). You will never have a genetic bond with a partner, no matter how hard you work, how much you try, how much you love her, - a random male simply swoops in and impregnate the person you love without any effort whatsoever - How does one simply accept this?

    What if I refuse to be a subordinate male to fertile males - as this seems to be the sole reason for the existence of infertile men?
    I can't understand your way of thinking. You talk about this as if human beings are animals that exist only to procreate and that the female of the species has no say in the situation. As a human you have far more control, far more choices and opportunities, plus a pool of millions of potential partners who'd be perfectly happy to be with you, never giving "fertile males" a second thought. I can't speak for all women, but a LOT of women these days make the choice that they do not want children and never deviate from this. I am one of them and I know a good dozen others. My last partner had intentionally made himself sterile with a vasectomy and I was glad!

    I think you need to take a look at all your good qualities and what you have to offer in a relationship, rather than limiting your worth to your sperm count.

  9. #48
    Platinum Member Wiseman2's Avatar
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    That's it? No hormone therapy or other more appropriate intervention? You're angry and bitter.

    It sounds like you never had appropriate counseling or medical intervention.

    It's true that you have to accept who you are. We all do. However you have decided to make fertility the central platform of your anger. So people are addressing this including your therapist but the real issue is anger.

    You have decided that your sperm count is the cause of all problems. When you choose to perseverate on one nonmodifiable issue you choose your own bitterness.

    However when you redirect the therapy and problems to infertility, you are steering help away from the real issues.
    Originally Posted by Silent47XXY
    Genetic testing.
    The therapist tries to tell me to accept it and move on. Easy to say with the picture of his family and kids on his table.
    Last edited by Wiseman2; 07-02-2020 at 05:24 AM.

  10. #49

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    Thank you all for your thoughts, experience and valuable opinions helping me out here in a tight spot after 3 decades of everything you mentioned circling in my mind. It all adds value, especially the encouragement with explenation. Of course, it's all relative to personal priorities. And had fertile men not repeatedly 'swooped in' to save the day at my expense, perhaps I could revert to the de-sensitised view I once had of utilitarianism, living happily with stepson as family.

    So now I'm clinical and cold.

    Narrow minded, probably, until I can find an equally valuable scientific reason that matches the value of fertile men. Just being a 'better man' or a 'good guy' has not worked for me regardless of my personal values, efforts and behaviour.

    Anyway, I did not intend for the thread to become disturbing to anyone, it is obviously controversial and uneasy topic, but I had to reach out for wisdom. Just interested in gaining perspective with facts to find a coping mechanism in case I missed a fundamental reason.

    Thanks Waywardkiwi for your insight, really a post worth keeping on file thanks. Regarding 'Nearly anyone can father a child; only a real man can be a dad', its perfect, but a father have a choice to be a Dad. You all are right, I just think my decisions to be subordinate, for the greater good, have killed me through some extreme sequence of events over decades.

    If I put all the responses together, it comes down to having to accept it by reprogramming my reality. Basically lying to myself. I think Seraphim has hit the nail on its head as painful as it is.

    There is no proper reason unless we make one up.

  11. #50

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    Originally Posted by Wiseman2
    That's it? No hormone therapy or other more appropriate intervention? You're angry and bitter.

    It sounds like you never had appropriate counseling or medical intervention.

    It's true that you have to accept who you are. We all do. However you have decided to make fertility the central platform of your anger. So people are addressing this including your therapist but the real issue is anger.

    You have decided that your sperm count is the cause of all problems. When you choose to perseverate on one nonmodifiable issue you choose your own bitterness.

    However when you redirect the therapy and problems to infertility, you are steering help away from the real issues.


    Thanks Wiseman2. You are correct. I am blindingly bitter and every man triggers it. But can not blame it on either Women or Men, they are simply naturally pursuing life. There is no release.

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