Here we go again...

Hi everyone…

I’m back again. I think this is my third time in this forum with my lady friend. It seems like a merry-go-round that may have its last stop. I don’t know.

I have been dating this lady for just a short of a year. We are in our late 50s. We have had several major setbacks in the last six months, the last one back in February at which time we didn’t speak for three weeks. It was her that was disgruntled with me. It always is.

Self admittedly, she went through a trumatic relationship six months prior to meeting me. She has said numerous times that her past traumatic relationship constantly plays havoc with our relationship, and our current situation is likely no different.

Last night, we got into a fairly heated argument, and she left my house at a late hour very unhappy and verbally combative. She was expecting to stay the night.

Things have been going fairly well over the last three months with this lady. There have been Some bumps, and we were able to talk them through. This time around, it got ugly.

As usual, it ended up being somewhat about politics. This seems to be our tipping point each and every time. She likes to shoot off her mouth about political opinions, and I have gotten much better at ignoring it and letting it go. This time around, as in the previous infractions, I felt the need to express my opinion, Which was that I thought she was out of line saying what she was saying and that her opinion directly contradicted almost anybody that I know who I care about, which in many ways means that the negative vibe she was slinging affected me, as well.

Her response, as usual, is that I “always” devalue her opinion, which is so far from the truth it’s not even funny, and that we “always” end up in the same place arguing, with me disrespecting her right to have an opinion. It’s the same argument, over and over.

I don’t ever feel that I have said anything that was blatantly disrespectful or devaluing of her opinion. Last night, I told her it was irritating that what she was saying about politics seems to be a recurring theme and I don’t believe what she was saying. That’s about how it started, really.

She was angry, defensive, hostile (although she would be hugely angered by me suggesting that). I’ve never seen her get that agitated. She went upstairs, packed up her overnight bag, and left basically saying, “I think you need to find somebody on your level… We keep coming back to the same place“, which is really not that true, considering we have gotten through similar situations in the past.

Once again, I’ve tried hard today to understand my part in it. It is true… I pushed her buttons regarding her opinions. In some ways, I felt like she was asking for it. I think my biggest mistake was to not really give her even but an inch in the political debate. I said what I believed in, repeatedly, and didn’t give in to her hostile rebuttals and attempted convincing that I was wrong. I didn’t insult her, even though she repeatedly said I must have thought she was stupid by the things I was saying. She was pissed. She walked out the door with her bags, loaded them in the car… I went out with her and stood next to her car window. She rolled it down and said angrily something like “to think this spoiled a perfectly good night with something stupid like politics“. It seem to be all about spoiling her night.

There was a lot more said during the interaction, but I think the most forceful thing I said was that I told her that she was going to need to make a decision as to whether or not these arguments are going to be something that are dealbreakers for her. She was giving me the impression she was fed up. She didn’t respond to my query. There was nothing calm this entire event. I never said anything nasty or cruel… I may have been a little bit agitated and animated at times, but for the most part, I thought I held myself together.

Obviously, we haven’t spoken or texted today, and we clearly would have by this late hour in the afternoon.

So… What’s the point to this? I guess I have to determine whether or not the many really good things that her and I have together are worth trying to navigate through this kind of stuff. Just a few days earlier, she thanked me for being patient with her, because she knows that she presents a lot of obstacles in our relationship, almost all related to her past trauma. She was able to understand that obstacle just a few days ago, but I’m not sure if she’s getting it now.

I’m sure many of you will give me heat for this, and say that I disrespected her opinion. Lots of you will say that we are we are just not compatible. I’m not 100% convinced of that, but I’m wondering about that too.

But mostly, I’m wondering what to do next about it. Last time, back in February, I went complete radio silence, and at the three week mark, she came around, and things were better for it. About eight weeks ago, we had a pretty tough night, almost similar to this one, and I pretty much had to tell her that she needed to make a decision, that she knows who I am and what I’m capable of and she needed to decide whether she was going to stick this out or not. That seemed to help her turn a corner, as well. We were much better after that, as well.

Part of me wants to reach out to her tonight, either by calling her or texting her, and just tell her I am sorry about the way things went down and then I am open and willing to talk about things. Another part of me wants to just wait it out and let her come to me. The third part wants me to let it go all together. I’m pretty confused about it. This is been a recurring theme.

Thoughts? Please go easy on me. I am doing the best I can with her and the situation.

It sounds like you enjoy debating politics and sparring with each other. Too bad it ends badly because you take pushing her buttons too far.. Leave her alone. Ignore whatever political comments she makes.

I felt the need to express my opinion, Which was that I thought she was out of line saying what she was saying and that her opinion directly contradicted almost anybody that I know

 

Her response, as usual, is that I “always” devalue her opinion.

It is true… I pushed her buttons regarding her opinions. In some ways, I felt like she was asking for it.

What's it going to take for you to finally recognize that you two are not a match?

Thank you WM.

I know you have seen this from me before. I have tried quite hard, and mostly successfully, over the last few months to tiptoe around her political leanings. She’ll start spewing stuff that is divisive and often times out and out inaccurate. It didn’t start that way last night, but that’s how it ended up… With her saying things like “all people on this side of the political spectrum are like this…” I would reply by telling her that nobody that I know on my side of the political spectrum would ever be like that… I couldn’t help myself last night. Half the stuff that she was saying just didn’t make a lot of sense. She was trying way too hard to be right. So was I, I guess.

So the biggest question is what to do about it? Should I take the high ground and check in with her and tell her I am sorry that it went that way and that I am open to talking about it if she’s up for it? I may never hear from this girl again if I don’t do that. With all of the good things that we did have going well, it seems like an absolute shame to just let it go, but then again, it seems like a merry-go-round that continues to spin.

So the biggest question is what to do about it?.

Personally, I would stay apart so you can move on. This is very unlikely to work out well, so I would cut my losses now.

Personally, I would stay apart so you can move on. This is very unlikely to work out well, so I would cut my losses now.

I wish it was that simple, MissCanuck. She and I have other things that are keenly similar, which makes us a good fit in several other significant areas. That’s what complicates this scenario, at least for me.

I am torn, as I suspect she now is, as well. We care about each other deeply, but it’s not without this significant thorn. I also have to consider that the political landscape will be changing within the next four years, maybe even as early as this fall, so that will change things, as well.

Let it go. Unless you two want to be like a bad reality show parroting fox news debates.

She’ll start spewing stuff that is divisive and often times out and out inaccurate. It didn’t start that way last night, but that’s how it ended up… With her saying things like “all people on this side of the political spectrum are like this…” I would reply by telling her that nobody that I know on my side of the political spectrum would ever be like that…

I have never once been involved romantically with a woman with whom I was not a "good fit" in "several significant" areas. That's the stuff that generally leads to the exploration of things, while of course being different than being a good fit. Just something to think about.

How an election changes things, I don't know. The political landscape is a different thing than your personal landscape. Do you think if your guy wins or loses come November, it will lead to a better or worse dynamic between you two? Honestly, I'm just trying to understand the mental arithmetic on that one.

Anyhow, I guess I just want to tell you—both of you, in ways—that relationships don't have to feel like paddling against the current. By your own math, the majority of this relationship (the past six months) has been defined by "several major setbacks." Think about that. A few pretty good months, followed by months of setbacks. If I was describing by relationship to you like that, what advice would you give me? If I was describing a financial investment like that, would you tell me to keep investing more of my money?

I am not sure I've read about your other rounds.

Is there anyway the two of you can coexist and not discuss politics at all?

Agree to disagree.

I know my last bf and I had entirely different views, therefore we didn't go near them.

But then again, we are no longer together . hmmmm?

I will point out that you told her she's flat out wrong.

But political views can be very subjective.

She may very well not be wrong. It may also very well not line up with your take on things.

Not wrong, just different. I think this calls for being respectful of each others differences.

Her saying "all" or "everyone". . people tend use global terms when they are passionate about something. Maybe you didn't need to correct on her on semantics.

You got your word in. Was it worth it?

I have never once been involved romantically with a woman with whom I was not a "good fit" in "several significant" areas. That's the stuff that generally leads to the exploration of things, while of course being different than being a good fit. Just something to think about.

 

How an election changes things, I don't know. The political landscape is a different thing than your personal landscape. Do you think if your guy wins or loses come November, it will lead to a better or worse dynamic between you two? Honestly, I'm just trying to understand the mental arithmetic on that one.

 

Anyhow, I guess I just want to tell you—both of you, in ways—that relationships don't have to feel like paddling against the current. By your own math, the majority of this relationship (the past six months) has been defined by "several major setbacks." Think about that. A few pretty good months, followed by months of setbacks. If I was describing by relationship to you like that, what advice would you give me? If I was describing a financial investment like that, would you tell me to keep investing more of my money?

Thank you blue… This is exactly why it is difficult for me to decide what to do. There are significant areas that work well for us that I have never encountered before. Ever.

Also, she has tried really hard over the last bunch of months to make me happy, and vice versa. It’s not like she is without good qualities, clearly… Politics, and her demeanor around it, seems to be the biggest major sticking point.

She seems to have all of her eggs in a particular political candidate right now, and that seems to up the ante for her. I am thinking that once this candidate cycles through the system, it may not be so high strung. Your implication that it may not be that way may be true. That’s a big prediction on my part.

I am not sure I've read about your other rounds.

Is there anyway the two of you can coexist and not discuss politics at all?

Agree to disagree.

I know my last bf and I had entirely different views, therefore we didn't go near them.

But then again, we are no longer together . hmmmm?

 

 

I will point out that you told her she's flat out wrong.

But political views can be very subjective.

She may very well not be wrong. It may also very well not line up with your take on things.

Not wrong, just different. I think this calls for being respectful of each others differences.

 

Her saying "all" or "everyone". . people tend use global terms when they are passionate about something. Maybe you didn't need to correct on her on semantics.

 

You got your word in. Was it worth it?

Well, much of me getting my word in was a matter of defending myself against some of the divisive things that she was saying, regarding my own political ideologies. I’m not sure that it would work for me to just continuously bite my tongue and listen to her spew stuff that is obnoxious and relates to people that I care about.

The only thing that I really stretched and implied that she was wrong about is that she out and out said things to me that just weren’t accurate and were untrue. How do you just ignore that if somebody you care about says something to you that could be considered offensive to people you care about? To me, it was sticking up for myself from someone who was being a verbal bully, which in some ways is what she was kind of doing.

So, the big question is, do I do what I can to reach out and send a note of apology, or as some of my friends say, let her come to me?

She thinks, likely, that it was me that was being unfair and pushing her. I don’t really see it that way, but I would have to be back in that moment and outside of it to really be able to tell if I was really saying or doing anything should have brought on that kind of reaction. I don’t think I really was, and if I was talking to any other person, it would have just likely been a fun and a bit heated debate. She continuously said that she thought I was treating her like she was stupid. That’s just bananas.

I get the tone that what transpired for you, wasn't a big deal and that you were rational, logical and she wasn't.

I kinda get why she was upset.

Her experience of the exchange was entirely different. But doesn't her experience matter to you? Does her feeling devalued register with you at all? You don't have to agree with her, but do you care how she feels?

After all, you described her as 'shooting off her mouth' and you first set the scene for your story by letting us know her past traumatic experiences effect your relationship with her.

She may or may not be an irrational, opinionated woman with past traumatic experiences, but if you can't try to see things through a different lens, then you may as well just move on from this.

Besides, you mentioned how you backed off and waited for her to come around last time. Did you not share any responsibility in that either?

just continuously bite my tongue and listen to her spew stuff that is obnoxious and relates to people that I care about.

 

How do you just ignore that if somebody you care about says something to you that could be considered offensive to people you care about? To me, it was sticking up for myself from someone who was being a verbal bully, which in some ways is what she was kind of doing.

 

So, the big question is, do I do what I can to reach out and send a note of apology, or as some of my friends say, let her come to me?

 

She continuously said that she thought I was treating her like she was stupid. That’s just bananas.

Well, you don't seem to respect her very much, so why bother?

. .I went back and read your previous post and my advise remains the same.

You two have really different temperaments and ideals. You either accept those differences or choose to not be in this relationship.

Your question is whether you should apologize? Only apologize if you did something or said something you regret. Or you have an understanding of what it was like for her and you regret the way she feels about the exchange.

Blanket apologies just to make bad things go away are never a good idea.

Well, you don't seem to respect her very much, so why bother?

What gives you the impression that I don’t respect her? I certainly don’t respect this kind of particular behavior. Why should I? She says stuff that is verbally offensive that relates to people that I care about, including myself. She has done this repeatedly.

I’m not entirely sure I understand how it’s clear that I’m being disrespectful to her?

Your point is a good one. I really didn’t take the time to express that I could see how her opinions might have felt devalued to her. I tried to do that, at least I told her that I wasn’t trying to devalue her opinions.

I think in the heat of it all, I felt like I was trying to stay afloat in a barrage of very hostile fire coming from her. How dare I challenge what she says? That’s how it felt from my end.

. .I went back and read your previous post and my advise remains the same.

You two have really different temperaments and ideals. You either accept those differences or choose to not be in this relationship.

 

Your question is whether you should apologize? Only apologize if you did something or said something you regret. Or you have an understanding of what it was like for her and you regret the way she feels about the exchange.

 

Blanket apologies just to make bad things go away are never a good idea.

I do feel badly for the way that she feels. It doesn’t have to be that way. That’s where the past trauma comes in. One of the problems in her last relationship is that she was made to feel very unappreciated and unimportant. Even though it may not seem like it, her and I are both pretty good at making each other feel very good, except for with these arguments.

What gives you the impression that I don’t respect her. I certainly don't respect this behavior

Because the words you use to describe her personally is different then how you feel about the behavior.

I totally understand you did not agree with her political view, but when you use words to describe her personally, it's kind of insulting.

I do feel badly for the way that she feels. It doesn’t have to be that way. That’s where the past trauma comes in. One of the problems in her last relationship is that she was made to feel very unappreciated and unimportant. Even though it may not seem like it, her and I are both pretty good at making each other feel very good, except for with these arguments.

It's in these moments, when the rubber meets the road that matter the most.

Of course it's easy to swoon over dinner, but it's when things get challenging you get to see how well you two work together under stress.

I do feel badly for the way that she feels. It doesn’t have to be that way. That’s where the past trauma comes in.

Sorry. I am always suspect when someone blames all the relationship conflicts on another persons past trauma. It may or may not be the crux of the problem here. But it's often used as leverage against someone and therefore she lacks credibility due to past experiences and in turn becomes a free pass for the partner.

I keep coming back to the fact that she told you she felt devalued. Could it be she felt devalued because you see her as lacking credibility? I mean, it does keep coming up. It's your biggest defense to support your case.

Had you shared your story(s) and left this personal tid-bit out of it, it might change things some. But it keeps flavoring your story, in this event and the others.

So, if she has this much trauma that is polluting your relationship, I have to ask why you are still with her?

It's in these moments, when the rubber meets the road that matter the most.

Of course it's easy to swoon over dinner, but it's when things get challenging you get to see how well you two work together under stress.

Well, in my own defense, I have coaxed her down off the edge numerous times over the last few months… When she was spinning with thoughts that were self-destructive. I can give examples, but I think you get the drift.

As far as her personality goes, I don’t know what I’ve said that would make you I think I am not being very polite to her. I have always been really good to her, and she knows it. Vice a versa. It’s this particular behavior, which is certainly a character trait, that is getting us into trouble. Yes, it could be seen that she has a right to be and say anything that she wants. Well, I don’t necessarily have to tolerate it. Similarly if a kid misbehaves, you try not to make it personal with the kid, you try to aim in on the behavior. I think that’s what I was trying to do last night. She was saying things that to me were somewhat offensive. I guess I had the choice to either ignore it or to state firmly and calmly that I thought she was out of line, which is what I did. That’s when things got out of control.

I wasn’t able to be as empathetic as I might have been, mostly because I felt I was having verbal objects being thrown at me at a fairly high rate. I think I was mostly in self-defense mode. In many ways, almost her entire argument was based on this unspoken sentiment coming from her that was pretty much saying “I have the right to say and feel what I want, so don’t with me“. That just doesn’t fly in a thoughtful dialogue or disagreement.

The more I have been thinking about it recently, the more I am wondering if this whole situation with her is a lot more drama than I want.

What's it going to take for you to finally recognize that you two are not a match?

^ THIS. I was thinking the same thing. You two are incompatible.

Sorry. I am always suspect when someone blames all the relationship conflicts on another persons past trauma. It may or may not be the crux of the problem here. But it's often used as leverage against someone and therefore she lacks credibility due to past experiences and in turn becomes a free pass for the partner.

 

I keep coming back to the fact that she told you she felt devalued. Could it be she felt devalued because you see her as lacking credibility? I mean, it does keep coming up. It's your biggest defense to support your case.

 

Had you shared your story(s) and left this personal tid-bit out of it, it might change things some. But it keeps flavoring your story, in this event and the others.

 

So, if she has this much trauma that is polluting your relationship, I have to ask why you are still with her?

Whenever we get into a disagreement over politics, she says that I devalue her opinion. Last night, I was trying to say that it doesn’t

feel to me like I do that, and that to me, it’s simply feels like I am expressing an opinion. She clearly disagreed. I think it comes from our differences in the way we express ourselves. She kind of shouts out her perspective in an angry tone, and I deliver my responses in a calm and thoughtful approach, and I think that makes her feel insecure, like I am trying to be smarter than she is. That’s not what I’m trying to do, but I think that’s what she hears. It’s almost as if she is Archie Bunker, and I am Meathead, if you know those characters.

In this sense, I think she is “hearing” things in a manner differently than they are intended or actually presented. She would likely tell you herself, in retrospect, that her past relationships have affected her way of being able to trust what somebody is saying and not hear it in a negative light. Does that make any sense?

She often and regularly brings up the idea that her past relationships and trauma affect the way she manages things in this relationship. This is her storyline as much as it is mine. But I see it and I feel it. I think she hears me differently in these situations because of that trauma, and she responds defensively in accordance.

What I should be able to do better at, which I failed to, is to somehow give her the space to spin out of control a bit and not try to use logic and ration to push her back down into a comfort zone. It’s particularly difficult for me to do that when I am feeling defensive myself because of stuff she is doing. If it was unrelated to me, and we were talking about something that didn’t relate directly to me, which political rhetoric certainly does, I don’t think I would feel as personally attacked as I do. I think that’s the bottom line. I think I feel personally attacked when she starts ranting some of her political monologue.

As to why I think I would want to stay with her? She’s a good lady. She helps people. We have several very important things in common that are really valuable to me. She’s good to me. I’m good to her. It’s the stupid ing politics that gets in the way.

Between the Archie Bunker reference and the suggestion that she's saying things that would be offensive to those you care about, I have to wonder if she's spewing racist or otherwise intolerant rhetoric. In my mind, there's a huge difference between that and a general difference of opinion where politics are concerned. I think the latter could be worked through, provided the two people involved aren't on totally different ends of the spectrum. The former is a different ballgame, however -- I would be hugely incompatible with someone who is racist, homophobic, misogynistic, etc. under the guise of political beliefs, so that would be an easy dealbreaker.

Politics in this time are so polarizing. It used to be common knowledge to never talk politics or religion. Nowadays people want to debate and change the other person's opinion. Then when that doesn't happen, the insults start.

I personally, don't always give an opinion, if i disagree... I listen. I try to remember for the most part, anyone I'm discussing politics with is someone I already love and I want them to have a person they can talk to. Sometimes I learn a new perspective. Sometimes it solidifies my position.

So thats my strategy in these times for politics and it works well... listen, express understanding and move on. Some people just want to be heard.

My motto, do I want to be right? Ir do I want to be happy?

It goes both ways though... if you can sit and listen, then another time you can be the one to talk. Learn to respect other people's opinions even if they aren't your own.

My other observation, why are you going weeks without talking?

if you can go three weeks without talking, then just go your separate ways. That's not love. Nor is the pettiness of waiting on her to come to you first. you guys are middle aged but act like children. What's the point?

If you're sorry, say it. If you love her and want to work it out, say it. If you need something from her, say it. Or end it and find someone you do want.

Lastly, find out from her, if her past trauma is too much for her to be in this relationship. Does she need therapy or what? Its not your job to fix her.

Politics in this time are so polarizing. It used to be common knowledge to never talk politics or religion. Nowadays people want to debate and change the other person's opinion. Then when that doesn't happen, the insults start.

 

I personally, don't always give an opinion, if i disagree... I listen. I try to remember for the most part, anyone I'm discussing politics with is someone I already love and I want them to have a person they can talk to. Sometimes I learn a new perspective. Sometimes it solidifies my position.

 

So thats my strategy in these times for politics and it works well... listen, express understanding and move on. Some people just want to be heard.

 

My motto, do I want to be right? Ir do I want to be happy?

 

It goes both ways though... if you can sit and listen, then another time you can be the one to talk. Learn to respect other people's opinions even if they aren't your own.

 

My other observation, why are you going weeks without talking?

 

if you can go three weeks without talking, then just go your separate ways. That's not love. Nor is the pettiness of waiting on her to come to you first. you guys are middle aged but act like children. What's the point?

 

If you're sorry, say it. If you love her and want to work it out, say it. If you need something from her, say it. Or end it and find someone you do want.

 

Lastly, find out from her, if her past trauma is too much for her to be in this relationship. Does she need therapy or what? Its not your job to fix her.

Yes, the politics. Think of Archie Bunker. If you ever watched the show all in the family, he would spew out all kinds of stuff and have no interest in hearing anyone challenge anything that he said. That’s how it feels in the situation. I felt that I was calmly reflecting my own feelings about what I heard her saying, and she was getting angry that I wasn’t responding understandingly to her explanations to it.

She Doesn’t really say anything that is hugely racist or misogynist, or anything like that. Her rhetoric is often very divisive. She will say nasty things about political leaders that I actually think are pretty good, and then she will say things like “all the people on this side of the political landscape are always…“ I will respond to her by telling her that absolutely no one that I know on that side of the political landscape does the things that she saying. No one. She was saying, “everybody in the world knows that this is true” I responded by saying, “absolutely no one that I know believes that”. It’s her truth and it’s my truth. I would be rattled by her saying those things, but she seems to be more offended when I do it. She says that what I say to her devalues her opinion, yet the way that she responds to me when I simply tell her what I observe with my own political allies, she gets bent out of shape. She devalues my opinion in exactly the same way, but it seems worse when I do it to her, even though she does the exact same thing to me. I said that to her multiple times last night.

I have been telling her I love her and I want to work things out all along. That’s nothing new. SHe has been telling me that, as well. It’s just odd that this all went down last night after a good stretch of very positive interactions and some good times. She seems to go up and down with the wind, gauging how she feels by how well we are doing. I do that, as well, but I think she banks her whole mood on it. I guess I do too.

I have people that I know that have suggested she may be bipolar. That is a very difficult consideration, but one I have thought about. I have my own struggles with mental health, as well, so I don’t say that judgingly… Just as an observer.

Just to clarify… She didn’t speak to me for three weeks back in early February because she was angry at me for almost the exact same reason. I then went completely radio silent in every way, and finally after three weeks, she texted me to say her final goodbye, at which point I called her up instantly and encouraged her to rethink her decision, which she did. It went really well for about a month after that.